#and for those who don't go here (here being soccer show fandom) yes. this is what i mean when i say that soccer show fans

[cavehags]

i know we're all hyped about roy and jamie training sessions but i do hope the show addresses roy's tendency to angry outbursts not just around jamie but directed at him. i really thought we were past this shit but the trying to lunge at him because he assumes jamie told the team about his break up and that bullshit move of flicking food from his fork and making him clean it were just clear evidence roy's got some work to do on himself

(2/2) it feels especially shitty 'cause they had made progress and he comforted jamie after the fight with his father you would think he'd know not to do that shit and it's not like jamie doesn't react in ways that would tell roy that he maybe should watch his fucking steps because jamie doesn't laugh roy's anger when it's directed at him, he flinches, he looks scared. i'm just really hoping the writers address this pattern soon

this may sound harsh, but: this is a comedy show. in comedy, heightened reactions are quite normal. the intent is for the viewer to find the heightened reality humorous, rather than to consider the character reprehensible for it. that is just how it works.

for instance, to use a fandom darling on a show tumblr loved dearly, consider rosa diaz on brooklyn nine nine, a woman who threatened colleagues with death regularly (a credible threat from a police officer, no less) and famously told a room of her coworkers that if any harm came to her dog, she would murder everyone in the office and then kill herself. conversations have evolved surrounding that show as the copaganda discourse kicked into high gear a few years ago, but i do not remember anyone ever saying that rosa's threat was real and she needed to learn anger management -- nor do i remember anyone laying on especially thick sympathy because jake peralta had a hard childhood and was really scared of her.

in comedy, we are asked to accept that characters act and react in ways that might be problematic (original definition) in life. you have to get that in order to enjoy it as an art form. a character lunging at someone else and needing to be held back by a comically large team of people is such a disney-channel-ass overdone joke that i am shocked that anyone could be treating it seriously. (if we ARE taking it so seriously, should we go a step further and question the physical mechanics behind why roy, a two-years-retired coach played by a 42 year old man with - i'm sorry to say - limited muscular definition, would require quite so many active professional athletes to restrain him? no, because we get that this isn't meant to be hyperrealistic. in other words, it is a joke. so is flinging food on the wall.)

but furthermore, i also want to quibble with your claims about who roy is as a person and what jamie thinks of him. jamie most certainly is not scared of roy - in 3x02, he laughs when roy is yelling at the team and he says flat-out that he thinks roy's anger is funny. jamie, again, is a professional athlete at his physical peak. he is not afraid of getting flicked on the nuts by a man he called granddad. i think there's a real danger of woobifying jamie as a poor widdle victim of abuse who cannot operate with dignity in the masculine sphere of professional football and i urge you not to succumb to that mentality. jamie was a dressing room bully, he can give as good as he gets, and he plainly enjoys getting a rise out of roy for whatever reason (i like to posit that it's a very particular reason but ymmv). he spent all of season one winding roy up and calling him names. funny way to express that you're terrified of someone if you ask me.

lastly, as far as where the show is heading? it's quite clear to me that we ARE going to get to a place where roy and jamie understand each other better and communicate with less tension than they had between them at the start. the show has spelled out in explicit, unmissable dialogue that roy sees jamie as a younger version of himself. the show has also shown us that roy doesn't like himself very much and isn't convinced he deserves love. so i do think his hostility toward jamie can be understood through that lens -- and the show spoon-fed us that information about roy in the hopes that we would understand his behaviour in context. the natural conclusion of roy's arc is for him to learn to accept love and kindness in his own life, and acknowledge that he deserves it. and jamie, as an extension of his self-image, should reap the rewards of that lesson too. if you continue watching this workplace sitcom, i do hope you keep that in mind!

[saotome-michi]

I don't mind fans calling Yoi revolutionary since shows that hit big get called revolutionary by their fans, but it bothers me when people call it fujobait. Madoka is called a magical girl anime for males tho the author said he didn't have a target audience, it was a show for everyone. Yoi has all the usuals of a Yamamoto anime: the eros story, nudity, sexiness, pole dancing, etc. IMO, Yoi is for female figure skating fans rather than fujoshi since they focus more on skating than anything else.

Does it though anon? Personally, I don’t think it does. I’m a female figure skating fan and YOI’s coverage of skating has been disappointing. The animation budget seems to have gone to Viktor/Yuuri scenes rather than the skating scenes, meaning the competitions have been tedious to watch what with their mediocre animation making all the routines seem the same. Other sports animes like Haikyuu, Cross Game, Kuroko no Basket, Slam Dunk, Hajime no Ippon spend their budget making sure the sports scenes look good so as to engage the viewers. The only skating scenes that look nice in yoi are the viktor/yuuri stay with me in the first and last episodes and again, the reason for that seems to be more for viktor/yuuri than for skating. You can argue about budget but in that case the staff should’ve been smart about it instead of biting off more than they could chew.

(warning: long reply ahoy)

The story also suffers narratively, because although Kubo/Yamamoto have tried to fit in 4 min backstories for the other competitors, they’re not really integral to the story and don’t do anything to raise the tension of the competition. YOI never makes it quite clear why skaters get the scores they do, you’re just supposed to accept it because “technicals? Yuuri skated with more love?? So and so skated with more artistry??” But like how are we supposed to know when their routines all seem the same and we never go into the details? Most of the time the results just seem to be whatever the creators need to move the story along. As a figure skating fan I was looking forward to them explaining the technical elements (the differences between jumps, spins, step sequences, program requirements, etc) but they never really did. Were they required? No, but again it would’ve helped viewers to follow along with the competition if they had some couch figure internally commenting on the different programs (like other sports animes do).

Of course, I’m only one person with only my own opinion, and you’re entitled to your own but I just wanted to explain why I find the figure skating in this anime disappointing. In addition, certain things the staff have done, such as incorporate choreography from Virtue/Moir into the ice dance routine in ep 12 without giving credit, and Kubo’s inappropriate tweets regarding male skaters, have turned me off yoi overall. it’s possible to enjoy a piece of work on its own while acknowledging the creator’s faults, but so much of yoi fandom behavior is worshipping the creators and I’m just not about that…

Pushing that aside for now, I’d say that the anime was targeted towards fujoshis and female skating fans. Because why only aim for one? But yoi definitely derives a lot from BL works (http://saotome-michi.tumblr.com/post/155242878489/is-yoi-bl-though-like-what-is-bl-even-and-when)and women who enjoy BL works definitely make up most of the fandom so… saying YOI is for fujoshis really isn’t wrong? I can understand why ppl get bothered by “fujobait” since it’s usually used as a derogatory term but to me it’s more of a marketing thing. Like, do you think the sparkling pretty men and shiny lip gloss moments are intended for the enjoyment of gay/bi Japanese men? Hell no, it’s for the women who enjoy seeing that kind of stuff.

As for this being a Yamamoto Sayo anime, you’re right that Michiko to Hatchin and The Woman known as Mine Fujiko both featured sexual elements, nudity, etc. and tbh I’ll have to do some more analyzing to get to the heart of why YOI’s sexual elements bother me and those two show’s don’t. But I think it has to do with the sexual/seductive elements in MtoH and Fujiko not coming across as fanservice. Because those elements fit their setting - Michiko to Hatchin takes place in the seedy parts of a fictional country based on brazil. Mine Fujiko hops around the world as a criminal who uses her attractiveness to achieve her goals. Their sexual elements had a purpose in establishing setting or character, and weren’t heavily focused on in a way that made it clear they were for the audience’s enjoyment. On the other hand, the sexual elements in YOI aren’t necessary and are clearly intended to stir the target audience up.

Also if we’re going to talk about Yamamoto then we also have to talk about Kubo. Most ppl only know about her manga Moteki, but she drew several doujinshi in the late 90s involving RL Japanese soccer players (http://www.mandarake.co.jp/information/2009/01/23/21sby05/index.html). There’s nothing wrong about that in itself, but it suggests Kubo is familiar with the BL audience and knows what she’s doing when she writes Viktor/Yuuri enacting traditionally romantic gestures.

Finally it’s funny that you mention Madoka. I don’t know if you’re aware of this anon, but this is something that happened maybe two years ago. The blog fandomsandfeminism posted a presentation they’d made called “Anime and Feminism 101”, which went into what was feminist and not in anime. Because of course a non-Japanese person unfamiliar with Japanese culture thought that they could be an authority on this. Tumblr user hisanakagami, a Japanese trans woman, commented on this post and basically tore it apart. You can read her arguments here (http://cancerously.tumblr.com/post/77750279190/hisanakagami-hisanakagami). hisanakagami later got so much hate for her comments that she ended up leaving tumblr. (A downright shame and an example of how western fandom trying to use anime in their ideas of social justice can turn out fucked up).

One of the things hisanakagami stated was how the magical girl trope was a major contributing factor to the popularization of moe. She touches a bit on how Madoka can hardly be considered a “feminist” series when you look at the historical context and it’s position within the market.

I understand anon that you are not calling Madoka feminist. I am not trying to put words into your mouth. What I’m trying to get at is that your disagreement on Madoka being an anime for males disregards the things hisanakagami talks about and it’s a similar situation with your stance on yoi. Can Madoka and YOI appeal to wider audiences? Yes, but the cultural history behind their tropes/etc and the markets they tap into, are what make this whole “___ is progressive” argument over-simplistic and frankly baffling.

One last note before I sign off on this ridiculously long reply - all popular shows might get called revolutionary, but yoi is probably the one where we get bashed on the head with that word over and over again. Just try googling “yuri on ice revolutionary”.