#also stop being mean to pelor that's vex's lightbulb dad :(

[burr-ell]

Also the whole religion bit of fandom criticism is particularly strange, kinda from both ides of the debate imo. The idea that presenting the prime goods as actually evil and Asmodeus is secretly a good guy, wrongfully accused, is somehow an "establishment" stance, when the actual establishment vs anti-establishment stance is literally baked into the traditional dnd theology in the form of the alignment chart, where the explicitly aren't the same thing as good and evil, but rather co-aligned.

That said, I do find the fact that people default to blaming the "culturally christian atheists" as the once primarily vying against the prime gods being good. Atheism specifically is about not believing in divinity at all, not about the perceived mortality of any excising divinity. I really feel that it comes more from lazy media criticism, believing that the "subversion" inherently makes it more clever, occasional annoying reddit atheist aside. Anyway, sorry for dumping theses in your asks. :V

Nah, you're good anon! This is interesting stuff (and I like getting CR asks :D).

To be clear, the reason that I view the fandom debate as a discussion of establishment vs anti-establishment is that a lot of the "what if gods BAD" ideas are presented with a very Twitter-esque anti-authority burn-it-all-to-the-ground attitude; that is not to say that I actually think that's what the totality of the argument is, just that that tends to be the veneer. (And to be fair, some of my perspective on this is colored by Fire Emblem Three Houses discourse, where this is also usually framed around "the system" when it's usually for the reasons we're discussing, but I don't want the lines to get blurred here.)

So I think a lot of the reason why people making these claims with that attitude aren't engaging with alignment is because there are also gods who are chaotic good or neutral and lawful evil; I think a lot of the criticism of the gods is mostly just like, people being mad at Pelor and projecting that onto all of the pantheon. The notion of this actually, canonically being an establishment vs anti-establishment scenario falls apart because I don't think you can really make a decent case for why Sehanine or Avandra are more "establishment" than the guy who runs a wholeass death city built on rigid laws and power structures. I mean...why, because they're considered Good and Asmodeus is considered Evil? Yeah, that tends to happen when one side fights to preserve life and the other side rules over a plane dedicated to the torture and corruption of mortal souls.

That doesn't necessarily speak to whether or not the Exandrian pantheon playing the tropes straight is a good thing, I'm just saying it shouldn't have been a surprise when Calamity Part 4 dropped. We saw what the Nine Hells are like. We saw what Tharizdun did to Yasha and what its influence did to Cognouza. We been knew.

I think you're correct in that most of this ultimately comes from poor media criticism and wanting the subversion of expectations because it would be cool, but I think it's also because people don't want gods who were occasionally not accommodating to Blorbo Of The Month to be validated as "good". I tend to try to be as inclusive as I can to people who have suffered religious trauma, because I always want to respect and affirm that (especially as a religious person, but also because it's just the right thing to do), but I think it's also true that many people who propagate those ideas are not themselves sufferers of religious trauma but are willing to use that as a shield if it's available. And like, notwithstanding the fact that "the god you thought was good is actually bad" has been done often enough that it's no longer a subversion...guys, don't we have entire seasons of HBO's flagship show and half of a bloated cinematic universe to tell us why we shouldn't just subvert expectations for the hell of it?

And I'm not saying that needing everyone to immediately validate your blorbo and/or ship or else they are badwrongproblematic is a sign of emotional immaturity (it is), but I am saying that this attitude crops up most often in the same college kids whose idea of real activism begins and ends with "burn it all down".