#also someone said destiel wasn't queerbait??

[agendratum]

what is it with tumblr polls and being able to awake the vilest discourse not seen since the darkest of the times of this website

like these days it's always the polls that do it

you open the notes and holy shit people really *still* live like this

but at least reading this shit is funny

also i did vote for the girls, because it's also funny, that being said, both sides of the discourse are annoying, have my favorite reaction pictures

[eisforeidolon]

Hellers can claim that they've been queerbaited as much as they want, the fact is that it is their fault for continously listening to someone like Mooch even after the 'straight-coming-out' fiasco. It is obvious what this guy's aim was/is. He is attention and money seeking from a rather rabid fan group who can fill his needs.

Hellers also have absolutely no right to accuse the show of queerbaiting. Despite self-proclaiming themselves as 'master readers of queer text and subtext and coding', Hellers do not even know how queercoding subtext or text even work.

Dean drinking cucumber water in one scene or the so-called ''bi lighting'' or wearing ''bi colored flannels'' are not queer-coding. It's literally making stuff up your ass and calling it a day and tapping yourselves on the back for supposedly realizing the 'obvious queercoding and subtext'. These are the guys who claimed Dean dancing with a lamp was a proof that he was imagining dancing with Castiel because Castiel was supposed to be the lamp in that scene, so it was queercoding and a nod to Destiel (yeah buddy sure....). These are the guys who legit claimed and pointed to Dean's FBI jacket (with the collar covering the 'F') as "proof" that he's bisexual.

That's straight up baiting themselves. They're still doing the same thing regarding the prequel, trying to find things that are not there, deluding themselves and thinking the show is baiting them. That's just insane.

Agree completely. They want queercoding to mean "calling literally everything Dean does queer means it's totes true". No. That's not what queercoding means or how subtext works.

In their heads, finding super sneakret signals to Dean's REAL sexuality in his every action shows how totally intentional and undeniable it is! It's literally impossible for Dean to be straight with all of this proof that shows up every single second he's onscreen! Except in reality, what it actually shows? Is how obsessed they are that they're insisting literally everything is a signal of queerness and how little they care about actual representation because it all magically only counts when it's Dean. What he eats, what he drinks, what he wears, what he stands next to, how he makes eye contact, who he talks to, etc.? There is nothing they haven't tried to turn into a hint towards proving bi!Dean and D/C.

That's not about what the writers intend, nor even any kind of genuine unconscious social cues about queerness. That's entirely about their personal myopic obsession with trying to force what they want to happen in a fictional show into reality by insisting everything is about their ship because they say so.

They weren't queerbaited by anyone but themselves and Misha, and as you say, even that is pretty much on them because subtle he is not. There was literally nothing the show could do that hellers wouldn't see as proof of what they wanted to see anyway. They ignored the million times it was reiterated by all the showrunners that SPN was the story of Sam & Dean. Singer and J2 explicitly said D/C wasn't part of the canon story. Dean's orientation was clarified several times in his own words. Even having Castiel and Dean spend less screen time together was turned into batshit "negative space" meta where we could supposedly see how in lurve they were by how Castiel's presence was missing from scenes!

It is genuinely an unhealthy, unhinged obsession of their own creation, nothing more and nothing less.

[cockworkangels]

Maybe I'm going too far, but him saying he's straight (be it because it's 100% true or not.) doesn't exclude him being queer. I mean, he was disappointed to learn that not all boys grew up to become women. Watching the vid, it really seem like his "I'm all three" was a spur of the moment and that his three questions were initially meant to lead to a discussion with the bisexual fans in the room (because he knows the show is important to us). He wanted to deflect, get the attention away from him and fumble up instead (not sure what was in his head, but sometimes the human mind isn't logical, especially under pressure. Or he meant what he said at the time, but isn't truly ready to be out). He's responsible for what he did of course, especially for taking too long to say something (also, I'd like to know when he learned about what was happening?) and he hurt people (me included), but I really really really don't think he was trying to queerbait anyone or as making a biphobic joke. Because it doesn't read as a joke at all to me. I also think the news blew up way too soon in the media, when it would have been better, imo, to talk to him beforehand). I'm going further: I believe he was always sincere in his support of Destiel (one-sided or not) and wasn't queerbaiting contrary to what some fans might say, even in jest. He did all he could to give us gay Cas while he was on the show and to support our rights to a queer reading of the show, that's not the acts of someone who was queerbaiting. I never thought he was incapable of fudging up or was without faults (case in point), so I believe I'm a bit less affected by fans who idolize(d) him and held/hold him to an impossible standard. However, this situation still s*cks every ways you look at it and I can't find the humor in it yet. The jokes about it just make me sad, personnally. Thank you for reading this long rambly ask and a huge hug from a fellow fan.

he says he's straight and i'm going to believe him on that for now unless he says something else. but ur right that it doesn't necessarily mean he can't be queer in some way that was a poor choice of words from my part.

and i didn't say misha queerbaited because real people can't actually do that (what people are saying is mostly just jokes). also, personally i don't think he was trying to make a biphobic joke, but some fans do feel that way, and are hurt by it, which does suck. and he has made jokes/allusions about liking men (which is again isn't queerbaiting, just kind weird jokes from a self-proclaimed straight man, like why do you find that funny??, which is why some fans feel uncomfortable by it in retrospect, which again they are allowed to feel).

you're right the news blew up quickly, but misha does have over a decade of experience with supernatural fans and know they 1. hang onto even off-hand words very easily, 2. film everything. what i'm saying he knows his fanbase and know how they tend to react.

yeah misha has been supportive but also he should be criticised for his mistakes that he's fully responsible for. like him fucking up does not invalidate the support he's shown but people are allowed to change their opinion on him/ be upset etc. like i do believe his intentions are sincere but like he messed up big time on this one. also what i was referencing with post initially was some fans alluding that the fans are at fault in this situation instead of misha (which is just not true) and that criticising misha's actions is somehow ungrateful an invalidating all the support that he's shown in the past (which again is not true).

and i'm sorry that you were hurt by this situation, you are completely justified in feeling that way too. hugs to you as well anon <3

[mrsmarymorstan]

I couldn't agree more with your tags about "queerbaiting" in Loki, having two male characters who aren't related to each other, and are within 10~ years of each others ages (actor-wise) interact in a mostly friendly way isn't queerbaiting.

Like I understand people being sad about lack of interaction between these characters or whatever, but I feel like there was barely even subtext.

I'm not beyond admitting that I was a defiant johnlock and destiel shipper back in the day, but this really wasn't that. To be clear, I am queer, but really? Was Disney gonna have Loki and a 52 year old comedy actor kiss? To be their first ever queer couple in over 10 years of producing movies?

Sorry for ranting about something that's not even a problem lmao I haven't slept in 2 days and I need to scream about this to SOMEONE

Please find time to at least rest! Close your eyes and breathe and that will help!

Yeah, I keep hearing about "Queerbaiting in the MCU" and maybe I'd agree to that with Steve/Bucky or Peggy/Angie.... but Loki/Mobius just felt like you had two characters with good chemistry. There were no romantic dinners, no long lingering gazes, no implication of soul mates or references to historical queer media. No interview highlights where they implied that Loki and Mobius were going to get together!

(And I don't ever take prying interview questions into account as acknowledgement of Queer Baiting because nobody can be expected to give a nuanced answer in a 2 minute improvised soundbite.)

What we DID get, however, was a canonically Bisexual Loki!! Which I imagine was very hard to get SAID ALOUD! Combined with Bisexual lighting so there could be no doubt about it.

Did it end up with Selfcest? Yeah, it did. Which might not be great, but Loki has also fucked a horse so this is just baby stuff. Plus "Would You Fuck A Clone Of Yourself?" is an ongoing meme and debate.

I saw someone calling it incest? That she was RELATED to him??? No. She IS him. They are the same person. That's not incest, that's multiversal-masturbation.

Whether you think that's okay or not, is your personal decision.

I think that we are likely to get more queer content on Disney+ in the future, especially since we now have 3 Openly Queer Young Avengers as confirmed in the MCU (4 if you include Eli/Patri-not).

We saw that Marvel are willing to put queer characters into their TV Series as proved by Runaways, which was cancelled but DID exist.

I would say we've not had any Queerbaiting as of yet, but be prepared because we might just be about to be given the biggest amount of bait to ever exist!

Confirmation of Queer Characters, who are never allowed to state that they're Queer.

Dr Strange... the pressure is on.

EDIT:

For clarification, I do not think that Loki was an example of GOOD queer representation. It was an example of a show with queer characters though, who were said to be queer, and so it is not Queerbait. And Mobius not having a defined sexuality and not being in a relationship with Loki also does not make it Queerbait, because at no point in the series was them being a couple implied to be a canon outcome beyond the viewer's personal interpretation.

[nancylou444]

I forgot if i sent it to u or someone else so i'm sending it again anyway

Please Read this to the end and then judge me.

I do not understand at all why you and all other anti destiels dont ship destiel and think that dean is straight and i hate you for that from the bottom of my heart. i mean cant you see how dean truely loves cas and gives no shit about Sam, his brother?and also jensen and writers ship it.

You are so stupid and do not deserve to live in this world period

Read this list below.it may help you take off your anti destiel colored glasses and Accept the truth:which in fact is that Destiel Will become canon.

Reasons Why Destiel Will Definitely Become Canon Before The Show Ends 101:

1.Jensen Ackles: Destiel Doesn't Exist.

2.Jensen Ackles: Because Dean is a lover of the LADIES.

3.Dean will always choose SAM over anyone else.

4.SAM and Dean are soulmates.

5.Castiel: you chose EACHOTHER.

6.Jensen Ackles' Unscripted Frustrated look into the camera in "Fan Fiction" episode.wink wink

7.Jensen Ackles: there wasn't a whole lot of dean and cas storylines in season 9.personally,i kind of enjoyed that.

8.Jensen Ackles: i think the whole dean and cas thing has gotten a little out of proportion.

9.Jensen Ackles: "destiel is real" is it?? Where?? Where is it real??

10.Jensen Ackles: What? What castiel? Nah just me and my pies!

11.Jensen Ackles: We sit down with the writers in a couple weeks. It boils down to these two brothers, that’s the core and the heart of the show, their journey, their fight for each other.

12. “You are homophobic if you don’t ship destiel!"

13.Dean Winchester is fuckin Straight.

14.Eric Kripke : I'm just really interested in guys, STRAIGHT guys who have a tight friendship,they are really fun to write...

15.Dean Winchester: I'm Dean winchester.i enjoy sunsets,long walks on the bitch and frisky WOMEN.

16.Dean Winchester : I dont swing that way.sorry.

17.Dean winchester : yeah sorry again pal i dont play for your team.

18.Dean sold his soul for SAM.

19.Dean died so that he could meet with Death and get SAM’s soul back which of course Castiel left in hell.

20.Dean gave away the Impala and was willing to die with a Croatoan infected SAM.

21.Dean breathed in the poisonous smoke, so that he would die with SAM.

22.Dean wanted out of an AU with Mary and Jessica alive, because AU!SAM didn’t like Dean that much.

23.SAM and Dean made promise to each other, made vows to each other really, in a church.

24.SAM and Dean choose each other over the world, anything, and everything, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

25. Dean refers to SAM as though HE is his spouse (”does he want a divorce?”, “Lucy”...)

26.Dean would rather live in a world WITH demons than live in a world WITHOUT SAM.

27.When Dean forgot everything else, including his own name, he still remembered SAM.

28.Dean : I can’t do it without my brother, I don’t want to 

29.Dean to Sam :You’re the ONLY one who could’ve talked me out of it 

30.Dean to Sam :There ain’t no me if there ain’t no YOU.

31.Dean to Sam :“Because whatever we have between us, love, family, whatever this is, they’re always going to us it against us.”

32.Dean to Sam: “You’re my weak spot SAMMY, and I’m yours”

33.Dean or Sam i dont remember: “All that matters now, all that’s ever mattered, is that we’re together.“

34. Dean to Sam :“Don’t you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you!“

35.Dean to Sam : “I made you a promise in that church, you and me, come whatever!”

36.The canon friendship between Dean and Castiel is toxic and borderline-abusive, full of lies, threats, insults, abandonment, beatings, and betrayals.

37. Sam, possessed by the devil himself, took control of his own body and beat Lucifer because Dean was there, because Dean didn’t give up even though he was hurt and covered in blood, because seeing Dean bombarded Sam with the memories of their life together.

38. Dean didn’t leave SAM’s bedside , didn’t bury him, didn’t burn his body, didn’t want to say goodbye, and how later he didn’t hesitate to sell his soul.

39.Dean decided not to go into a box, because SAM asked him not to.

40.SAM and Dean were the ones whom were mistaken with gay couple by several people if that matters.

41.SAM to Dean :“you always put me first. Your whole life”,

42.Dean to SAM: “I know where I am at my best, and that is right here, driving down crazy street next to you”,

43.Sam or Dean i dont remember:“you know what brought me back? You did”.

44.Dean’s siren-as admitted by the siren herself-was a copy of SAM.

45.Dean told a male cop "you're awsome".OMG!! He is bi!!!

46.Dean fanboyed over a male tv character.Holy Chuck!! He is bi!!

47.Jensen or Jared:“At its core, it’s the story of two brothers.”

48.Jensen or Jared:“At the end of the day, this starts and stops with the brothers.”

49.Jensen or Jared:“When it comes down to it, it’s about these two brothers.”

50.Dean told Castiel to get the hell outta bunker for SAM while he knew he didnt have his angel powers.Damn! Dean truely loves Cas!

51.Dean figured Castiel was too far gone to be convinced back into their group and bound Death to do their bidding. Dean’s order to Death was to kill Castiel where he stood.#couplegoals

52.Castiel blackmailed Dean by torturing SAM.oh dear god!!! What a True Lover!!

53.Castiel Betrayed sam amd DEAN with crowley.but that's what all lovers do Right???

54.This isnt some romantic show.

55. Castiel is a genderless celestial wavelength of light wearing a male vessel.

56.Dean's chemistry with Baby the Impala is far more noticable than the one with Castiel.

57.Sam even once asked Dean and Baby the impala to get a room.

58.The possibility of Dean and Baby the impala to get sexually involved and the two of them having sex in the finale full frontal is far more than the possibility of non existant Destiel to become canon.

59.Destiel shippers are only a tiny minority of the SPN fandom.

60.Jensen Ackles is fucking done with this shit.

61.Dean left Ben and Lisa for SAM.

62.Misha Collins is the only one who queerbaits.

63.Dean in "red meat" described SAM as the man he loved.

64.Dean sang in a colorful background.OMFG!! he is bi!!

65.Jesen ackles : because being with his BROTHER and doing that is the happiest he is.

66.Dean to SAM: "because i couldnt live with you dead"

67.What show you've been watching???

68.Jared : because that would have RUINED the show to make it about something it wasnt about.

69.Dean has kissed and had sex with an angel.her name was Anna

70.Sera Gamble said “supernatural is the epic love story of SAM and dean”

71.Cw_supernatural IG: it has always been two brothers and the open road.

.

.

.

*Manic laughter*

*Aggressively drop the mic*

*The door is over there*

*Boom! Suck it*

*It sucks to be destieheller*

You are very welcome

Btw I'm a Proud anti destiew and a logical SPN fan.

If You think I'm right,then Chuck bless your logical souls and if not,let me find some fucks to give....sorry,none was found.

The begining part was an example of a savage destieheller.it wasn't me😊ignore it.

Yours truly,anon.

=============================

Holy crap, that is one longass ask. An ask I was thisclose to deleting until I skipped to the bottom. 

💖💖💖💖💖

[sinnabonka]

Hey Hun! Lots of love to you. For starters I wanted to say that there should be no cell in your body blaming yself in any way. You and your blog were hope for so many people. You were the "you are not crazy" of the final weeks, and I'm forever grateful to you. Instead of dying of anxiety I managed to have a blast in this time of waiting, thanks to you. I passed my master thesis, because you gave me strength to see past the fear. I laughed in those weeks more than in last 5 years, and all of it because of the hope you gave me.

The rest of the msg is going to be pretty emotional rant about the awfulness of it all, and I know my opinion doesn't matter to anyone but I wanted someone important to me to hear my thoughts, if that's ok. It's also ok if you don't want to read it ofc. It's like my breakup letter to the show.

I hear many people cheering for the finale and i find it really hard to deal with. I always considered myself an open person who fights for healthy love as the only redeeming quality of the universe. I could see people's point of view, even if it didn't sit well with mine, and I would always try to hear them out respectfully until they weren't being respectful themselves. That said, I'm fully unable to understand cheering for this type of spiteful content and hearing those cheers makes me feel like the entire world is listening to "this is how you treat your fans, this is how to abuse your power over naive sheep, this is how to keep dumb, hopeful minorities in check" and taking notes.

It also upsets me that the people who gave this show all of themselves and tried to understand it to the core are given no resolution, are spitted on and buried under the rug for doing their best to appreciate the art and the story it was telling. Yet people, who just hang around and watch the show doing the dishes, with no consideration to it's story or characters, got as nonsensical ending as their whole idea of character development in SPN.

I know people say that it was good enough, because it leaves space for guessing and own interpretation, but I feel it's really undermining the extend to which the finale was awful and hurtful to the fans. There is no end that realistically could stop fanfic writers from finding way around it in the world of Supernatural, so saying it was thoughtful of them Is like excusing abusive partner because "they could hit me harder, but they didn't. That means they care"

Lose ends, characters being written in a way that is totally not true to them and their development (personally my biggest allegation), dismissing years of story development, proving that it was all 'queerbaiting' in big part in the end (hell, even the whole "Cas is in heaven so do with it what you will" is a shameful way of appalling to LGBTQ community after using them so hard.

In the pie scene, the roles should be swapped, it's Dean who should say that Cas is on his mind and Sam explaining him that it's only right to keep on living doing good in their name. That's what Dean told Sam at the beginning of the season, when Sam lost Rowena, so it would be at least a bit poetic. This would at least give us some truth from Dean for once, but he died how he lived, in shadow of his fear to be true towards his feelings and needs. And as he died, he bound his little brother to the hunting till the end of his days, by guilting him into it on his deathbed. Guess Dean took after his father.

Have you realised what that emotional "love speech" from Dean to Sam resulted in? It was writers taking back Cas' confession after they didn't need our viewership anymore.

They basically gave us love confession to get us to follow the finale and when they didn't need us anymore, not only they didn't commit to the confession, but they undermined it by having Dean's speech to Sam go the way it did with obviously higher emotional charge, successfully taking back the value of Cas' confession and making it about a bait for "Tumblr idiots"

Finale killed my feelings towards Destiel, not because it wasn't confirmed canon, but because from what I see in the episode, they canonically confirmed that

- for Dean, Cas was only means to an end, which is such an awful way of ending Cas' character arc. They gave him everything he was scared of and nothing close to consolation price and they dare to tell us he had a happy ending, "because they said so". Well, I didn't see him being happy, and knowing what i textually know i can empathise enough to say that he faced a miserable finish. Even Chuck got an end that was better than Cas' fate.

- Dean, given power to do anything he could dream of, chooses to not even greet Cas, after Cas gave his whole life to Dean, told him he loved him and died for him. I know some people consider the little smirk of Dean confirmation of his feelings, but let's be real for just a second. If someone you deeply loved for years confessed to you, told you they thought you don't love them back, you would be freaking running to see them and tell them how much you love them. That smirk to me reads as "I'm relieved to know you're not going to spend eternity in mega hell that i left you in" and we really need to stop giving credit to writers for scraps like this when it's the last episode ever and we know this isn't going anywhere.

Not to mention that by having Jack bring Cas back behind the scenes it just highlights the fact that Dean didn't ask him to do that in episode 19.

As result, I'm unable to look at any Destiel scene and not think "in here Cas already loved him and in here Dean already abuses the power he had over Cas, because of his one-sided love"

And yet, the episode and endgames for everyone (maybe not Sam, but he was seriously pinning for Dean his entire life. Wincest much?) managed to be so bad, that not even bringing Cas back or following up on Destiel would make a difference in my eyes. I know you believe that Destiel would save it, but for me as much as it would be a redeeming quality, it wouldn't be enough to save this awfulness that writer doomed characters with.

And all the Wincest scenes in the finale... I low key expected them to make out and it made me feel physically sick. Also, cutting Misha out because of coronavirus is a cheap excuse. We all know better than to believe that, so let's not fall for the self pity play from the abuser.

If you managed to stay with me till this point, thank you so much for hearing me out. I hope i didn't anger you with my monologue. I will always think of the lamp when i think of you. The reality is that you were the lamp for so many of us in this darkness.

Love you so much, wish all the best to you, take care of yourself and stay safe!

Oh my god, if I didn’t cry with the final, I definitely am crying now. And now I have to explain my partner why I’m staring at my laptop and sobbing ugly. What have you done? 

First of all, I hear you pain, my friend! I share it! I didn’t spend a second after the final without the feeling of my heart being shuttered into million pieces, being stitched back just to break again, and so on and so on. 

I had my first panic attack in two years yesterday, when I kept thinking about the message the show sent to the fandom via Dean’s fate. I have a few posts in my draft on the matter, but I am not sure I will ever share them, because it is one strong depresso, and I don’t think people following me should see how fucked up it really is (if they didn’t get it by themselves, of course). 

I want to remind you, my gentle soul, that the story belongs to us. We know Dean, we know Cas, we know Sam and others. We know that the final is not who they are! I know it’s hard to ignore the text, the canon, because it’s kinda godsent, but the truth is essential. And the final is not the truth.

The truth: 

Cas loves Dean, he sacrificed himself for him, he saved his life on multiple occasions, he told all those beautiful things and he meant every word.

Dean loves Cas, he was on his lowest every time he lost him, Cas was his “big win”, his best friend, his brother, his white light that lead him out of his anger, hatred and despair. He took a dog and called it Miracle, he was looking for a job to retire from hunting, he didn’t kill Chuck - all of that, because the sacrifice Cas made was not in vain! The message was clear. 

I choose to ignore the “Carry on”, the only attention it is going to get is me creating 20 more mails just to put a one star review there and to drop some more salty or bitter comments with it. Maybe I will read through some reviews, too, add them to my collection. 

Maybe I will one day write here an article from scriptwriting perspective how fucked up in was, because that’s what I can do about it, without throwing up. 

If you can’t ignore it, I understand it. It is painful, it is disrespectful, I hate it as much as you do, probably. 

If there’s anything I can do for you to feel better, just drop me a message, we can talk about it. I am on the lowest, too, but maybe we can help each other.

You say I was your lamp. Let me lead you our of the darkness one more time <3 

CW can suck my metaphorical dick (I’m tagging every angry post with it), but Supernatural is not just the show on CW, it’s a big family. 

And you can’t give up on it! You can’t give up on Dean and Cas, you can’t give up on Destiel! It’s so much bigger then the show itself.

Rediscover the show for yourself, remind yourself that Dean and Cas are real, it was never one sided, it was always something amazing. 

What is real? We are.

Don’t you ever change.

I rather have you, cursed or not.

It’s love, hun, and love always wins. 

[gaycatastrophe]

20, 29, 16, 6 for the ask meme!

20. What is THE destiel song?

oh god okay so you've just picked the question that I could write an entire thesis on and unless you picked this one because you've seen me rambling in the tags about it I am SO sorry because this is about to become a really long post.

THEE Destiel song has to be Personal Jesus by Depeche Mode. It encapsulates the Too Muchness of their dynamic because the song is fundamentally about putting all your faith and devotion into one person as if they were your God. "Someone to hear your prayers/ someone who cares." As I said in the tags of this post,

Like Dean the faithless man prays to Castiel only and Castiel angel of the lord lets this man take the -el suffix meaning "of God" out of his name and chooses Dean over Heaven again and again and even literally decides to become God. For Dean. I know this has all been said before but literally guys (gn), they are each other's Personal Jesus, cmon.

The song is also specifically referenced in the show, by Dean. So in 5x02, the episode immediately preceeding Free to be You and Me, Cas has to call Dean's cell to learn where Sam, Dean, and Bobby are and then when he meets them in the hospital Dean says "since when do angels need to reach out and touch someone?" The hook of Personal Jesus is, of course, "reach out and touch faith," but it's plausible based on that alone that the reference was unintentional. But like. "Feeling unknown/ and you're all alone/ flesh and bone by the telephone/ lift up the receiver/ I'll make you a believer" -- the song's narrator is asking their love interest to pick up the phone. In the most god-complex-y way imaginable. (And a split second after Dean asks this as Cas is starting to explain, Bobby interjects, "enough foreplay!") Imagine if Cas had understood the reference at the time.

This makes me feel insane because if you think about it for even half a second it's so horny. Like I just can't wrap my head around any watsonian explanation for Dean making this song reference thats not either (a) he's flirting intentionally or (b) his brain is making a subconscious association between Cas and this song. And the song, particularly with the music video is so horny in specifically such a Dean way. The video is in a southwest/Spanish setting (technically it was filmed in Spain but aesthetically they’re clearly aiming more for southwest American cowboy), there's horses, it's implicitly supposed to be set in a brothel according to the Wikipedia page, and the members of Depeche Mode are all dressed in cowboy hats and leather.

I mean the music video was released in 1989, watch this and tell me you can't imagine ten year old Dean glued to a shitty motel TV completely entranced by this video and young enough to not be sure why he likes it so much. Why was this reference written in to the episode if Dean is straight? I mean it's queerbait I get it but it's a pretty subtle line if you're not extremely familiar with the song already, so. Why?

29. Was Dean going to say "I love you" to Cas after the purgatory prayer?

Hooooooooo boy. Good question! That scene hits either way, is the thing. I don't think Dean was going to say the exact words "I love you" there, but I do kind of think Cas stopped him from saying more in person because of the Empty deal. Dean's prayer in that episode - the fact that he begins it with "I hope you can hear me" - he's not sure as he's praying that Cas is even still alive.

I think Cas was guarding both their hearts by preventing Dean from repeating that emotional vulnerability, because even if he wasn't going to say "I love you," a repeat of that sort of raw unguarded apology and forgiveness from "still beautiful" Dean Winchester, but this time face to face, coupled with the relief on Dean's features from knowing Cas is alive and okay, mightve done Cas in anyway. : )

16. Which fanfic trope would you force onto Dean and Cas in a canon episode?

Cas possessing Dean. I promise I only want this the normal amount. No further comment. :P

ok ok ETA you don’t understand, it fits the themes!!!

6. Which character should have never died?

Yeah I'm gonna have to copy your answer here and say Charlie, that one really hurt and felt so pointless. Kevin, on the other hand, should have been brought back to life and left alive and well after that. >:(

[spn asks]

[coplins]

(1/3) Thanks for responding. I totally see the queerbaiting/kill your gays criticism - it's clear from Misha's comments after the fact that he really thought he was doing something supportive and didn't get how it was the opposite. I wasn't upset with ignoring Eileen because that whole plot was so badly written, and I didn't mind blurry wife because that was a story they'd never have time to tell, so leaving it to be your choice of wife/co-parent (Jared's words) worked for me.

(2/3) I don't see Dean's lack of reciprocation as a problem because Jensen and the showrunners have continuously said that is not their intent in writing/acting that character, so anything folks read into it is subtext. Again, Misha thought it would be better rep than it was. It was a bad call. John isn't canonically a child abuser, just a lousy parent. Both Dean and Sam have done so many crappy things as well that honestly, they shouldn't be there by that metric either. 3/4) But I don't think the finale (awkwardly written as it was) cancels out their character development at all. They are different people - back at the starting point, but not the men they were when they started. Dean is emotionally open; he's dropped acting tough and can talk about his emotions. He can be alone and be okay. Sam is no longer afraid of his blood or turning into John; he can be a good dad. I wish we'd seen Jack and Cas, or heard them at least wish them well, even just a prayer. (4/4) But even though that was crappy to leave out, I don't think it negates the show or the characters. 19 added Cas and Jack's names to the table, and I can be happy with that as the final episode. I was prepared to pretend it didn't exist before it even aired. I AM really glad you're anti-harassment. The shit that even folks like Kripke have been getting on their pages has made me so sad. Dabb posted something about baboons and folks even thought it was about them, not his new show! (Also, sorry to dump like a huge text thing in your inbox. It's totally fine that we disagree on things. I've just seen so many crazy things like people blaming Jared and saying the episode was an ad for Walker and to boycott Walker - a ton of Jared hate in general, really. Or saying Jensen "Destiel Isn't Real" Ackles is secretly a heller who's been viciously silenced by the powers that be for years. And now Misha's getting dogpiled for trying to interact and understand how he fucked up.)

It's fine, Nonnie. :)

Okay, so, just to make one thing clear. If you enjoyed the finale, then I think it's great. For everyone who didn't get their joy sucked out of them, that's awesome! I got to see the Wincest side of my Tumblr dash go apeshit from happiness and I'm happy for them. I've since had to unfollow some of those blogs when they turned bitter and hateful towards those of us who didn't like the ending. I curate my Tumblr (internet in general) experience to avoid seeing hate thrown at ships, actors, characters, fans, or people in general. I unfollow people if they post too much toxic stuff no matter if they're Destiel shippers, angel fans, or whatever part of fandom they're in.

I try not to reblog too much angry/bitter crap either. There are a lot of posts on my dash that I wholeheartedly agree with but don't belong on my blog. And I've written my share of wank and rants over the years but seldom hit post because I don't want to ruin someone else's positivity. When I do hit post I tag it "spn wank" so it can be avoided. If I need to angry-rant I do so in chat. Sometimes I mess up. There are undoubtedly some less than nice posts in the Buckleming wank category on my blog.

Generally speaking, my M.O. is disengaging and/or vote with my wallet. I will never condone cyberbullying. No matter how famous the person, or how nasty they are, harassment isn't okay. Actions have consequences and I try to think of what they are before I act. If I vent hurtful opinions about an actor, it'll be kept in chat, with someone who understands that particular frustration. (Not related to the current situation.)

When it comes to canon, it doesn't matter what showrunners or actors tell us about how it's meant to be interpreted or how they meant to act it. Canon is what's shown on screen, period. As curious as I am about what the actors have to say about things, it isn't important regarding canon at all. I'll stan my boys no matter what their characters get up to on-screen. <3

Yeah, I've seen the theories and the dogpiling. Luckily, I've avoided seeing the Jared hate but I knew it would be there because the internet is a cesspool of people lashing out aimlessly or misdirecting their anger. Even IF they wrote the finale in a way that they thought would put a spotlight on Jared's upcoming series, HE was nowhere near a position of power to make that decision and should be left out of it. I just figured, if it was true that that's what they thought, then the Wincest bunch was their target audience for the new show. *shrug*

Interesting to hear your take on the finale. If I follow people who have your take, they're not vocal about it, or I'm simply missing it because I don't stalk Tumblr. All it takes for me to stop scrolling and go back to my writing is 3 unknown anime posts in a row or one reader-insert fic and I'm nope-ing the hell out of here. X)

I'm not going to argue against any of your points. It's great that you saw it that way. Fuck, I wish I did too.

I kinda feel like I need to address the child abuse comment I made, though. Some separate neglect and abuse like those aren't the same, some only count physical abuse, others include verbal abuse. Too many of my loved ones (both close friends and family) have experienced all three of those categories and the one who was left alone to care for her little sister as a child, definitely has a lot of mental scarring from it, so I'm counting neglect as abuse. That said, I fucking love John Winchester. So it might be Jeffrey Dean Morgan's charisma, so sue me. But John canonically neglected the hell out of his sons. We got proof of that even in this season when John drops his son off for days in a town where kids have gone missing recently. So, yeah... But, on the other hand, of course both he and Mary should end up in Heaven. Like, that wasn't even a question.

I think my strong reaction against it was how every part of the found family the Winchesters had gathered over the years was erased from the narrative as soon as Dean died. The only one who is shown as important is Bobby, a found-family member that initially was connected with John, not someone the brothers had found and connected with on their own. Bobby is also the only non-Winchester in the photos Sam has over his bed when he's dying. I don't know, man, "Everyone's here," simply doesn't do it for me.

"Family ends with blood" like the finale implied, only works if the greatest monsters in life haven't been family members, and my best friends (twins) growing up, just like my mother, were abused, mentally, physically, and sexually, by parents. I've seen the aftermath of those hellfires, how long it takes to assemble the fractures of your being and become, if not whole, at least functional and happy. For them, it was the friends they made along the way, those who loved them when they couldn't, who really mattered.

And that was one thing I really loved about SPN (and still do). Team Free Will. Wayward Sisters. All the people that they met along the way and connected with. I've loved to see Sam and Dean develop their bond by taking it from unhealthy, destructive co-dependency to step by step with several setbacks become their own individuals with lives outside of each other, yet still having the strong bond full of brotherly feels where the love they had for each other was rooted in respect for each other's differences and not who they "were supposed to be for each other". And unlike you, I can't see anything but regression in how the finale played out.

Okay, I gotta stop talking now. ^^ I have one scene my betas told me I need to rewrite in my next chapter, and another chapter half done, and I'm itching to post so I need to get on with it.

I hope I didn't put too much of a dampener on your enjoyment of the finale. My opinions don't matter. We all come from different life experiences and therefore find different things compelling and important. I don't begrudge anyone their happiness. <3

*Hugs*

[thesharondefenseleague]

Yesss thank you for bringing up the Sam Bucky queerbaiting like the moment they ended up on top of each other?

They knew absolutely what they were doing how it could be seen and that there was an audience out there that would love that indication that they were appealing to with that content. But of course its just to get their money and views and they never intend to follow through on that indication and loose their homophobic fans.

So ya absolute queer bait. Steve and Bucky never had moments like that. Ya they had dramatic maybe slightly cheesy heartfelt dialogue but thats not the same thing.

I so often see SteveBucky on the same list as Destiel or Johnlock for like examples of queerbaited couples and it seems like fans just see queerbaiting as any duo that could have had romantic potential that they liked and wasn't made canon. And like i get it you feel strongly for your otp.

But don't call it queerbaiting when its not. Especially next to those more insidious queerbaiting examples. That makes people think its a shipping thing rather than a minipulative marketing tactic that is often at the expense of minority group that craves representation.

There is that joke about straight girls being the ones who ship these gay ships and get salty about not seeing their favs make out. But there are alot of lgbt people who ( no suprise) gravitate towards these non straight ships too.

So many times ive seen teen girls get shit on for shipping gay ships calling it them fetishizing gay men just for having gay ships and later see that they were actually either not straight or not girls or both. They were just struggling with their sexuality not ready to come out and gravitated towards reprentations of things that were less heteronormative but wasn't associated exclusively with gay people.

And while im sure there were straight people out there who really wanted their gay otp to be canon its the young lgbt people who gonna get screwed over the most by this queerbaiting. They were young and hopeful and thought this mainstream thing they loved was validating them when it was really just leading them on for views. This isnt exclusive to lgbt people either.

Ive seen this happen with black characters too where the promise of them being important and relevant is used to draw in a black people get them watching to drive up viewership and then sideline them ( like say in Star Wars).

Its one thing if you want to put in representation and arent allowed to so you imply as much as possible. You see that often with childrens television for example. But this is almost the opposite of that. Its more insidious and often despite purposely baiting in show they will gaslight in interviews and say fans are reading too much into it. And sometimes there will later be evidence that baiting was discussed in the writers room.

Its all a huge dick move that people are complaining about and putting in say Stucky ,which didnt do that, on the same queerbaiting list of Johnlock or Destiel, which did, kinda makes that level of queerbaiting into just fan favorite gay ships that didn't become canon and people are salty.

Yeah, one of those ships is not like the others. There are a few video essays online about how queerbaiting was used to get fans while the creators simultaneously (for J/L, we all know what happened on 5 November) denied it would be canon. Steve and Bucky on the other hand haven’t been given the J/L treatment. Queerbaiting has to be on the J/L levels of insidious or the Betty and Veronica kissing in the trailer and going right into nowhere levels of baiting for views.

But Sam and Bucky. Is this why we don’t see Sam paired with anyone? Is Sam closeted?? Seriously, let’s run with this. What if Sam is closeted, because it’s hard enough to be a black man who is in the army, then a superhero who is an extremely public figure (because forget secret identities), who is then Captain America and probably the most famous person in the world, and here’s this guy who he wants to be friends with and also kind of prove his worth to, and he’s fun to mess around with, but fuck he’s kind of cute, with that face he makes when he’s messed with, and then you roll around in a field like that...

I would like to point out that in these past few years, we have collectively grown out of a time where m/m ships had a lot of fetishization in fandom. I don’t think we realize it, but I remember how much there used to be (and especially trans fetishization, I haven’t seen that in years when that used to be a huge thing). It’s nice that now we can see these characters as more human and less thing to get off to. And it does have a lot to do with LGBTQ+ fans given more of a voice in fandom. That being said, you can’t just say Steve and Bucky are queerbaited. The writers and directors have never once used that idea to sell you on their films. Their actors have never once played it up for the camera to mess with their fans. The only character that has that is Peggy. (Someone else remembers those being a thing with Agent Carter, right??) And in a time where Marvel is going to have canon queer relationships on-screen, we need to show support of them and stand for the characters who risk having their identities erased, especially when teams like the Young Avengers come around.

But also there is a lot of subtext to support that Sam could have a coming out narrative that I don’t think will ever happen, but would be a plot twist conclusion to the #givecapaboyfriend movement from way back. I mean, Sam has deliberately not been given a romantic story. This could be why. (But don’t hold out for it. Oh god, what if Sam and Bucky are the queerbaited ship??? Another plot twist.)

~Mod R

[samanddeanloveeachothersomuch]

Opinion #20

I need to vent about people on Reddit. This is pretty much going to be a rant on people's opinions about the show. I'm not trying to be disrespectful I personally just think they are wrong. I'm sorry if I already ranted about one of these things before.

There are still people who think Sam and Dean aren't platonic soulmates. Either because they think brothers can't be soulmates (even if I explain they are platonic soulmates and then go on to explain all the canon evidence) or because they are destiel shippers which is a whole other thing but I ask hellers to pay attention to canon when talking on a post about Sam and Dean on Reddit. (If you only ship destiel in fanon and don't send death threats to anyone then I thank you. It is the hellers (extreme destiel shippers that say the CW is queerbaiting because it wasn't made canon) that bother me.) The reason I even mention destiel shippers is because I've had someone tell me that they prefer Dean and Cas as soulmates and it bothered me for a lot of reasons but I would just like to put out there that Dean seems to barely tolerate Cas sometimes and they aren't exactly what you would describe as close. He very much prefers to hang out with Sam over Cas on any given day. And obviously, the idea that brothers can't be soulmates is false. I have also seen people say that it goes against team free will and that since Chuck created their bond it's weird for them to be soulmates. I've touched on the second one before. Basically they were the ones who strengthened their bond. They wanted it to be what it was and Chuck did not. Chuck wanted them to kill each other. He didn't want them to not be able to function when the other was dead. ( This doesn't count the finale Sam was functioning obviously but he was living for Dean and it was more like a half life.) As for the second one. As far as the free will part goes as I stated above they went against Chuck so their bond pretty much is free will. Plus, we know it was out of Chuck's control the entire time because of the finale. The only thing Chuck did was try to drive them apart. As far as the team part goes I personally don't care for Cas so I don't particularly care about the team part.

This leads me to my next thing. Sam and Dean care about their friends and their family but they care about each other more. They show isn't really about found family. It's about Sam and Dean. Dean has said this in multiple episodes that it was always just them. Even if you don't like the finale (I loved it) Dean still said this. It is canon. They care about friends and family but not as much as each other. This is further proven when Dean waits for Sam in heaven even though he could go see any of his friends or family as heaven was completely opened. They didn't want to see their friends or family. Them reuniting and then it ending was perfect. Now they can go do whatever they want.

Sam's memories were tampered with by Zachariah. Jared confirmed it but it also makes a lot more sense than memories with random people being his happiest memories. His happiest memories are with Dean. Think about the end of season five. How did he stop Lucifer? His love for Dean. His memories he had with Dean as kids. Their names that they carved into the Impala. Then in the finale Sam was wearing his pilot outfit. Jared said this was because it was Sam's happiest memory. The best memories someone has changes but in season 5 that definitely could have been a good memory for Sam. He had long given up the idea of a normal life. This wasn't season 1 or 2 it was 5. I've had people tell me that it makes sense for Sam's memories to be what they were (see above) and that Jared was just trying to placate fans. Jared says things people don't want to hear about the characters all the time. He knows Sam and if Jared says their heaven was messed with I believe him. It's not a stretch. Think about the voicemail. All of this was meant to break them apart.

I've seen people say their codependency is toxic and needs to be broken. I think every relationship could be toxic and the more you care about the person the more toxic it could be until you are able to work it out which they always do. In supernatural the fact of the matter is their "codependency" ( I assume this is meant to be a negative term which I don't really want to use.) is keeping them both sane. Dean lives for Sam. Taking care of him is a huge part of who he is. He would spiral if Sam died. Either become reckless or as Jensen has actually said he would die in the back of a pool hall. Sam also spirals. He gets reckless just like Dean gets or he hides. He hides in a normal life. Dean quite literally keeps Sam sane. Remember stone numer one? Remember "It's the only thing I've ever know that was true."? So yeah it could be toxic but in reality they got a lot better. Say whatever you want about the later seasons but at least they weren't fighting all the time. As a whole their relationship isn't toxic.

It's amazing how many people think they were only so close because of Chuck or because of hunting. I've already touched on the Chuck one. Hunting is just their job. It is hard to imagine them not hunting because it's what they do. Just like adults go to work. If hunting was to slow down and eventually stop they'd still be in the bunker. If they got normal jobs they'd still be living in the bunker. There is a lot of reasons they wouldn't nessccarrily do good in a normal life but the biggest is at this point they don't want one. As long as Dean was alive they would have stayed in the bunker. They do things together just because they enjoy them that has nothing to do with hunting. In season ten they were by that lake and drinking beer. If I remember correctly in one of the seasons Dean talks about retiring. When they went to that old people home I didn't get the impression that one of them would be going their and one of them wouldn't. They go on an annual trip to Vegas every year. I'm sure there are more. They want to spend time together that doesn't have anything to do with hunting. They are pretty much in a queer-platonic relationship at this point. Which is kinda like marriage but is platonic and something you can have with a best friend.

Dean definitely did not regret selling his soul for Sam. Hell was obviously traumatic but I don't believe for a second that if there was no other way he wouldn't try. Even in seasons where they were fighting. It's amazing that people could ever think that knowing how much Dean loves Sam. The codependency (I don't have a better word) became extremely apparent when Dean sold his soul but it was there before then. Faith is a good example. Even Dean saying "As long as I'm around nothing bad is going to happen to you" is an example. Dean letting himself be beat up by Lucifer because he didn't want Sam to die alone is a good example. Sam has always been Dean's exception to everything. ( I don't mean for that to sound weird.) Even in the Kripke era they codependency was a strong as ever. The codependency became a thing in the Kripke era. Dean definitely didn't learn that Sam should have stayed dead. And yes I know his dad had died in he was in a bad place but I truly don't think that had much influence on his decision. He sold his soul because he couldn't live with Sam dead. That is something Dean admits to. It didn't have anything to do with his father. In fact, if it was up to John he probably would have made sure Sam stayed dead so he didn't have to deal with the possibility of killing him.

I think I'm done. Thank you to anyone who actually got this far. Lol. Sorry the post is this long. This made me feel better though. If anyone has any other suggestions feel free to let me know and I can put them in. Remember these are just my opinions on everything other people have said. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. I hope you all have a wonderful day.