#also one extended word vomit but that's more a vibes thing. for the fans uno

[batsplat]

Is there any evidence showing how the audience reacts to Jorge's celebrations? I'm wondering, like, what if Jorge and Vale swapped their celebrations, would the audience like it more just because Valentino did it? Is it actually about the celebration itself or more about the person doing it?

oh they sure would've liked it more if valentino had done it!! like, the answer is that it's about both those things: what the celebrations are and what performs them. and in 2007... the vibes were still broadly pro-jorge, but he did already have plenty of detractors, plenty of those who thought he was a cocky shit - if not as yet an actively hostile casual audience. still, he wasn't valentino. valentino was valentino, those celebrations would've of course been received differently from him

and yes, let's lead with the obvious here: becoming valentino's rival certainly didn't help his cause. in early 2008, the commentators have been talking up how he's finally winning the people over and he's had such a bright and promising start to the premier class... but then we have to put a bit of a pause on that while jorge more or less disappears for most of the rest of the season, spending most of his time licking various wounds. then you get 2009 and the title fight between the two of them... while jorge did have plenty of support, especially from his own country, and he wasn't necessarily hated yet by the casual audience.... well, going by his biography, he was a bit too aware of how he was perceived:

Jorge Lorenzo thought that he might come under fire for battling against Dani Pedrosa, the other rider fighting to be Spain's number one MotoGP favourite, rather than anything else. How wrong he was! On the Internet the majority of criticism has come from Rossi fans - even in his own country! It is definitely a subject that touches a nerve. Jorge is well aware of the discussions that take place on the Internet - he's a seasoned web surfer and he keeps m touch with what's going on on the forums, as well as interacting with his fans - so there have been plenty of occasions where his typing fingers have clenched into fists of frustration. 'It is amazing what you have to put up with in your own country. We have two guys winning races and fighting for the title, and still lots of people stand up for riders from other countries. Okay, I understand why they support Rossi, because he has won nine titles, he's an incredible rider and he has earned their respect - and mine. But there are these other scumbags - disrespectful and bad-mannered people - who are Rossi fanatics and get enjoyment out of insulting us. They almost want me dead! I hope I never have to hear any kind of abuse or insults towards another rider from a "Lorenzista". That would really sadden me.'

obviously, no athlete should read what people write about them on the internet, like that's just a fundamental case where somebody on his team should be telling him 'no, don't do that :)' and get him to practise some social media hygiene. but of course, it is interesting that it kinda makes him the first rider who was like... online... what does it change, if the rider themselves is up to date with the discourse

so. I have been known to peruse motogp forums myself. it's hard to get a great read of fan sentiment at various points in time beyond what the journalists and the commentators and the occasional relevant book can tell you. forums are obviously not particularly representative either BUT it's still kinda interesting to give yourself a sense of the discourse at the time, what talking points existed and so on. which brings me to my other point: while the rivalry with valentino inevitably exacerbated the situation, jorge already had some baggage with viewers going back to his 250cc days - where he was inarguably a lot. just to give you a taster, from april 2008:

a rich text!

so, to some extent, the narrative of jorge as 'the villain' was something that already existed in early 2008. it wasn't unrelated to emerging as a valentino rival, even then, but it was also not entirely about that. like, the main opponents jorge was linked to in people's minds back then were dovi and dani! (and john hopkins, apparently.) the other narrative you already find here that became quite common over the next few years: okay, jorge was 'the villain', but it's also good for a sport to have something like that. someone to root against. someone who comes across as a bit arrogant, a bit full of himself... even if he doesn't mean to be seen as that

and yes, this stuff does definitely get worse in 2009, which is how you get jorge reading stuff along these lines about himself online - including from his compatriots. he didn't think he'd be unpopular for fighting valentino! he thought it'd be about dani! and the thing is, jorge isn't happy whatsoever with this tag of 'villain' that had followed him since his 250cc days. it's something that comes through a lot in the biography as well as his 2010 title winning season documentary: he feels misunderstood, he wants people to get what he's really all about. he spends so much time worrying about how people will perceive him, attempting to figure out how to better communicate with them... but in reality, a lot of people had already seen all they needed to see. fighting valentino wasn't the starting point for that, and it's likely jorge would have always ended up in a bit of a heel role anyway - but obviously, being valentino's teammate didn't help

then 2010 came, the relationship between the pair of them finally deteriorated publicly, and after valentino's injuries jorge was dominating his way towards his first title. this is when things really begin to change for him. he still had the early season celebrations, drowning himself in jerez and the yellow chair of le mans, plus of course the title celebrations - but, well. I think at a certain point, if you're jorge, you can worry about what people online are saying as much as you want... but you have to figure out what's more important to you: being popular or winning. because maybe, it's just not going to be possible for you to have both. maybe, however much you want to find out a way to connect with the people, to charm them, to bring them on your side with your joyous and creative celebrations, to get them to love you the way you feel you deserve to be loved... maybe they've already made up their minds. maybe, there's only so much you can do... the dorna-produced documentary may be defiant, but it is also frustrated. jorge knows people don't see him how he wants to be seen, and he has run out of things to try to change that

to give an example of how warped perception of him had become by end of 2010:

So at Sepang, Lorenzo was the object of intense scrutiny, his every action dissected and discussed like a presidential candidate's acceptance address. And naturally, when Lorenzo pulled over on the cool down lap after finally securing the championship that had been his life-long goal, the fact that he missed Ben Spies' hand offered in congratulation was jumped upon by the voracious pack and imbued with a significance normally reserved for the actions of mystics and gurus. It was a Deliberate Act, said those whom Lorenzo had angered by stealing Rossi's crown, a Snub. It was aimed at Establishing the Pecking Order in the Yamaha garage for next year, the conspiracists insisted, kicking off the 2011 season within seconds of the 2010 season being settled. Lorenzo, the angry mob proclaimed, deliberately ignored Spies to show him who was boss. Watching the video in isolation, you might even be persuaded that the conspiracists had a point. Spies pulls up next to Lorenzo, tries to shake his hand, which Lorenzo does not respond to, then Spies rides off shaking his head. Proof positive that it was a deliberate and malicious act, say the conspiracists. Like all conspiracy theorists, those who say Lorenzo deliberately snubbed Spies overlook one major factor, however: Human nature. When Spies pulled over to congratulate Lorenzo, the Spaniard was in a daze. Members of his fan club had started the preparations for the complex and impenetrable celebration they had planned before the race, and Lorenzo was clearly struggling to remember what it was he was supposed to be doing. He had marshalls, photographers and his friends all around him, all slapping him on the back, poking him in the gut and touching his arms. There was a lot going on. Most of all, though, this was the moment that it all started to sink in for Lorenzo. After a tough race in stifling tropical conditions - the race had been shortened by one lap at the request of the riders, because the Sepang race is so physically demanding in the heat and humidity - Lorenzo had finally crossed the line in one piece, and with enough points to win the title. He had achieved a lifelong dream, a goal he had dedicated himself to for at least the past 15 years. A goal that he had sacrificed his relationship with his family, his relationship with his manager, and even his relationship with the only girl he ever loved to achieve. Finally, for the first time in his life, he was MotoGP World Champion. He had gone through several harrowing weeks before finally reaching this goal: He had lost points to Dani Pedrosa three races in a row, putting Pedrosa back in with a chance. After Pedrosa injured himself at Motegi, and Lorenzo could have wrapped up the title, he was surprised to be given a good old-fashioned smackdown by his teammate, reminding him that the title is never certain until it's officially in the bag. Those fairing-banging passes between Rossi and Lorenzo reminded the Spaniard of his vulnerability, that a simple mistake can cause a serious injury, and undo all the hard work of a season in a fraction of a second. Finally it was over, and the title was in the bag. At last, after weeks of pressure, Lorenzo could relax. As he pulled over, the emotions washed over him, elation, relief, exhaustion. Within seconds, he had fans around him starting on the Spaniard's meticulously planned celebration. He had barely gathered his thoughts to start dealing with the complexities of that celebration when Spies pulled up beside him, tried to shake Lorenzo's hand, then rode off shaking his head, probably in bemusement at the state of Lorenzo, a reminder of his own emotions at winning the World Superbike title last year. By the time Hiroshi Aoyama shook Lorenzo's hand (the third rider to do so), he had recovered enough of his composure to act as expected, and acknowledge the gesture appropriately.

and here:

There is no question that Lorenzo's actions are open to interpretation. The video only shows men whose faces are hidden by helmets, and whose intentions are therefore much more difficult to interpret. It is entirely possible to read the entire event as a deliberate snub to Spies, and a warning for the future. Occam's razor, however, suggests a simpler explanation: that Lorenzo was overwhelmed, and not completely aware of what was going on. Later, once Valentino Rossi arrived to congratulate the Spaniard, Lorenzo had fully recovered his composure. He accepted the Italian's congratulations in the spirit in which they were offered: begrudgingly and half-heartedly. Once in parc ferme, the childish rivalry continued, with Lorenzo trying to hog the limelight after winning the title, and Rossi trying to steal it after winning his 46th race for Yamaha. They both may ride the same bike and bear the same colors, but Rossi and Lorenzo are still a very long way from being teammates. The rivalry between Lorenzo and Rossi is much of the fuel feeding the conspiracies about Lorenzo's behavior. With such a fierce rivalry between the current teammates, surely this must continue into next year, when Ben Spies takes the place of Rossi in the factory Yamaha garage? That is surely the driving force behind Lorenzo's behavior in those few seconds, the conspiracists ask. Lorenzo himself today responded to questions on the issue on Twitter, posting the following response to the many people who had asked him if he had deliberately ignored Spies at Sepang: "I had some messages asking me why I didn't pay attention to Spies when he wanted to congratulate me. I have to say that I didn't see... ...And feel he was there at that the moment of our celebration. I just told this to him. He is a good guy and we have a good relationship."

it started before valentino, it became worse as a result of valentino, it extends beyond valentino. but, as ever, valentino is inescapable - and in the end he is so to jorge even around the time of jorge's greatest and sweetest success. to jorge there are two wars going on during that time period: one for the title and one for the hearts of the people. he has won one of them, but he keeps finding himself frustrated in the other. still. he might not have openly admitted as much in as many words, but there was one war that was always going to be more important than the other. if given the choice, he was going to win

so then. after that, jorge settles for his defiance, becomes a hardier, steely version of himself as the rest of the alien era unfolds. it is an era of motogp that is deeply unpopular at the time - and so, increasingly, is he. it is not universal dislike, of course it isn't. but it is definitely a feature of motogp during those years. he becomes readier to lean into that role, over time, prepared to play the heel if that is the role he has been cast to play. but the desire to be understood never entirely went away... there aren't many riders who have studied valentino so closely, certainly few who are so fascinated by the secrets by valentino's enduring charisma and popularity. perhaps none who were so determined to capture some of that magic for themselves. if anyone on this planet was aware, then, of how much better any of these celebrations would have been received coming from valentino - well, it would most certainly have been jorge himself