#aka 'was crowley an archangel and was he raphael? answer: fuck knows'

[tonydaddingham]

Longwinded anon again. It's very easy to see where Aziraphale needs to get his act together/get therapy in regards to his belief in Heaven's essential goodness (and it was always very odd to see fans believing that four years would have been sufficient, narrative-wise, for that to happen--four years is nothing to characters who are immortal). Crowley, though, is still doing one of the most toxic things on his side of the relationship: he's being over-protective. In S1, the "damsel in distress" bits, which I know some fans like to romanticize, are harmful to both characters, because they make Crowley feel like he's doing something heroic when he isn't (every rescue in S1 is unnecessary) and encourage Aziraphale to abandon his agency. In the narrative arc, Aziraphale's discorporation, which Crowley fails to stop, is liberating. He does his conscientious objector bit, chucks himself out of Heaven, kicks Crowley out of his depression in the bar, vanishes the soldier, and then has to forcibly remind Crowley at the airfield that /now/, in fact, Crowley needs to do something or there will be irreversible consequences. And then they rescue each other through the body swap.

S2 doesn't have the big swoopy rescue scenes, aside from the 1941 replay, but what it does have is Crowley withholding key information that might well have altered Aziraphale's behavior. He clearly hasn't been forthright about what Gabriel really said at the execution, and he never gets around to mentioning that Aziraphale has put himself in danger of being zapped out of existence by Heaven. (This is very PRIDE & PREJUDICE: Lydia elopes with Wickham in part because her older sisters don't publicize his bad behavior.) Again, he thinks of himself as Aziraphale's protector, and while Aziraphale knows that Crowley likes to protect him--he even says so--in S2 he doesn't fully understand what Crowley is protecting him from. Nina asks Aziraphale why he doesn't stick up for himself, and he shows once again that he can, but in S2 Crowley thinks it's his job to keep Aziraphale safe from any real Heaven-sent nastiness that might puncture his innocence. Which prevents Aziraphale from evaluating his choices once the Metatron shows up.

(As for S3: Gaiman does appear committed to getting them together in their cottage, so I don't think a permanent breakup is on the horizons. I do think something drastic has to happen, whether becoming mortal, becoming a "new" sort of immortal being tied to Earth rather than Heaven and Hell, Aziraphale delivering a full-bore public rejection of Heaven with attendant consequences, etc.)

Longwinded Anon✨, light of my life, you are officially driving me insane with these asks (screenshots of others under the cut); there is so much fascinating insight to talk about. first of all, though, welcome back and i hope you are also Surviving following s2!✨

these two characters are two of the most fun to dissect and examine. they are hugely multifaceted, and every time i watch s2 and ruminate on them, there is more and more to find. the below is the result of those ruminations, and i feel the obligation to warn anyone reading that it is going to be a very, very long one, so ✨buckle tf up✨

further messages from Longwinded Anon✨, my beloved:

aziraphale: insecurity

to me, one of the key tenets of aziraphale's character is a deep-seated and complete sense of insecurity and lack of self-esteem. and it's not unfathomable to think that he's had a lack of self-worth for some time, carrying all the way through to the Feral Domestic™ (FD). bear in mind that all of the below is without reference to the pre-fall scene, which ill cover separately later on.

there is however the fairly obvious element that heaven and the archangels completely disregard aziraphale, and are condescending and reductive in how they perceive and interact with him. aziraphale, i think, adopted this mindset pretty heavily in s1 - one such example being the "I'm soft" line - and it is further explored in s2, but specifically at the later end.

aziraphale in s2 seems much more self-possessed and 'together', and a key element of that shift is not only his liberation from heaven, but also that he somewhat starts to see himself through crowley's eyes as possibly being worthy of being loved. i think that he starts to think of himself as, in fact, having intrinsic value.

this is shown, in particular, in s2 by the contrast between ep2's rock scene (where he starts to question the depth of his angelic allegiance, and that he might have actually done the right thing by following his own personal conviction and helping save job's children), and the majority of ep5 (ie. his absolutely astounding - by aziraphale standards - amount of confidence in himself to get him and the ball attendees out of demonic danger).

this is brought to a head though by shax's comments in ep5, where she really drives a stake into the core of aziraphale's insecurity. she remarks on his propensity for indulgence (sushi/meals), his tendency to be overtrusting and naive ("softest touch"), his lack of traditional angelic quality ("went native"), and the question of what exactly crowley feels for him ("emotional support angel").

setting aside Michael's acting - which was truly mesmerising in this one little scene, probably one of his set-pieces in the show, honestly - that tells us that this really got to him, we know from everything we have seen of aziraphale in GO that these are likely thoughts that he has repressed, or pretends are not conceivable when they absolutely are.

my final interpretation of aziraphale's insecurity, however, is not necessarily that he thinks he is without value or merit whatsoever, but that he is not enough.

he's good enough to guard the eastern gate, but not good enough to keep adam and eve from temptation. he's good enough to guard and monitor the antichrist, but not enough to be truly accepted as part of the heaven hive (his physical sentry post on earth notwithstanding). he's good enough for crowley to run away with to alpha centauri, but not enough to convince crowley to choose to stay and fight with him to prevent the apocalypse.

this starts to wane in s2, and he's noticeably more happy and confident... right up until ep6 when he's good enough to be loved by crowley enough to spend eternity with, but not enough for crowley to sacrifice his hang-ups with heaven and help him rebuild it as a team so noone else ever has to suffer what they both did.

the lines however in ep6 that particularly broke my heart, because aziraphale literally conveys this whole painful, bleeding part of his psyche to crowley, are the following:

a: "if im in charge, i can make a difference."

a: "i don't think you understand what im offering you."

whatever the motive behind metatron's offer to aziraphale (and therefore calling into question the sincerity of his compliments to aziraphale), aziraphale has literally just been told that not only does someone who - whichever way you slice it - is the highest being in heaven that he has the ability to run it, but he has the ability to completely gut and rebuild it for the better.

harking back to ep1 with crowley's statement that aziraphale only calls him for three reasons, one of which is telling crowley something clever ie. his own achievements, it does make me wonder how often this scenario truly happens. maybe it does happen often, but what does aziraphale actually consider to be an achievement? something to be proud of himself for, that is purely reflective of his ability and - by extension - worth?

when aziraphale tells crowley that he might be misunderstanding what aziraphale is offering him, i don't interpret it as anything to do with restoring crowley; instead, i just see aziraphale telling crowley that he is offering up absolutely everything that he is, every single atom and aspect of him, and all crowley has to do is trust him enough to take it. he is saying that he will love crowley, and crowley can be free to love him, but only, in aziraphale's eyes, if crowley can accept aziraphale as he is; that he is enough.

during this whole part of the scene, crowley won't even look at him. won't even face him, sunglasses or not, and acknowledge what aziraphale is saying, right up until this line. you can visibly see that aziraphale starts to get angry that the one person who made him feel any self-worth might in fact have never seen him as good enough in the first place, that crowley didn't in fact love every part of him, and was choosing to cherrypick the aspects of aziraphale that suited crowley, rather than the whole.

this snippet of the scene is compounded by being sandwiched by these two crowley lines which, in my eyes, really highlighted that crowley is in fact only choosing to accept aziraphale in small measures, and that other elements of him are not enough:

c: "...you're better than that, angel!"

c: "you idiot, we could have been us."

aziraphale is enough exactly as he is; he's not perfect and certainly not wholly complete, but for crowley to dig at aziraphale by intimating that he is not reaching the bar that crowley has set for him - potentially subconsciously - is likely be the true end for how much stock aziraphale put in crowley's perception of him, and by extension the worth that he thought he had in crowley's mind. instead, aziraphale is now left to find a way of building his sense of self-worth all by himself - and does so by stepping into that lift.

crowley: salvation

im not going to necessarily talk about all the times that crowley demonstrates an almost pathological need to be aziraphale's saviour, because frankly Longwinded Anon✨ has that covered. but as with all things GO-related, i think it's important to try to understand why.

i truly think that a cornerstone of crowley's romanticism is deeply rooted in the concept of salvation. now, we know that he doesn't appear to give a flying fuck about salvation from heaven, but he certainly seems to put a great deal of import on being aziraphale's hero, and later he seems to question a great deal when aziraphale essentially finds a hero elsewhere.

as LW Anon✨ said, aziraphale is very cognizant that crowley likes to play hero where he's concerned, and seems simultaneously resigned and excited by the matter; resigned because actually, sometimes, aziraphale is smart or powerful enough to keep himself safe, but excited because this is possibly the epitome of how crowley expresses his love for him.

aziraphale shows that he is fully aware of this characteristic of crowley's, and whilst he does play into it (which we saw throughout all of s1e3) to 'make crowley happy' (and, dare i say, also because at this point it is the supernatural, sex-less interpretation of centuries-long foreplay) in s2 it almost starts to become neglectful, overbearing, and dismissive of - as LWA✨ says - any true agency that aziraphale has built since breaking from heaven. this, incidentally, is highlighted in the following exchange:

c: "im gonna get the humans out of here and then im coming back, i won't leave you on your own."

a: "i know, but i have a suggestion-"

c: [interrupts] "ive got this."

whether crowley feels like he is missing any genuine overture from heaven to apologise for making him fall for a minor infraction, or he feels guilty about something that he did (ie possibly what made him fall) and is making his own reparations in the outlet of constantly being aziraphale's saviour, the one that is certain is that crowley has to feel needed, and by extension - loved.

he does have a nasty habit of putting aziraphale down (which ill talk about next), however much in jest, and placing aziraphale constantly under his metaphorical wing. aziraphale going so far in s1 to actually work out the apocalypse and proceed to take what he believes is the right action to prevent it on his own must have, by extension, sent crowley reeling - if aziraphale can in fact look after himself, where does that leave crowley? what else, in crowley's eyes, could he possibly bring to the table that would make aziraphale want to keep him? love him?

i think that this is crowley's own brand of insecurity; that unless he is performatively saving aziraphale and protecting him from harm, and actively dismissing aziraphale's ability to protect himself sufficiently enough, he has no discernible quality that aziraphale would want. so instead he tries to make himself so integral to aziraphale's survival so that aziraphale has no choice but to keep him.

the fact that aziraphale saves himself in s1, and they then reflectively save each other, did wonders for aziraphale in progressing as a character. however, in crowley, i feel that this frightened him so emotionally that it regressed his character somewhat. all coming to the climax of when aziraphale, in good faith, offers crowley the chance at salvation for himself, crowley vehemently refuses it and takes it to insult. there are many other valid and understandable reasons why crowley rejects the prospect, but one of them to me is that it would leave crowley's fundamental role in aziraphale's existence as completely redundant.

both: demonstrating love

essentially what i put in an ask recently, but needed referencing here too.

leading on from crowley and his hero/saviour complex: the thing is that these are two diametrically opposing people in all but a handful of aspects. crowley by large is usually the more obviously demonstrative in his affection, borne out of many different reasons, and he is the ultimate Acts of Service (ft. Quality Time) dude. aziraphale tends to be more subtle, with Looks and Words, in how he displays his, so let's give him the Words of Affirmation (ft. QT) crown.

in s2, it seems to me that this hasn't really changed, but they are starting to cross over into speaking the language that the other understands. and to me, this comes to a head by the time of the ep5, and the ep6 FD. so obviously crowley has finally bridged into verbally demonstrating to aziraphale how he feels. aziraphale did the same action but mirrored by - however misguided - offering crowley the chance to be restored.

but neither want what the other is giving; they want what the other usually does to show their affection. aziraphale wants crowley to demonstrate his willingness to be with aziraphale by coming with him to heaven, and crowley wants aziraphale to acknowledge what he is telling aziraphale and respond in kind. neither are at fault for wanting that; they have simply demonstrated their devotion to each other in different ways, but those ways have been quite damaging.

crowley does do a lot for aziraphale, that can't be denied, but AoS is way more demonstrative, and yet it's easy to miss what those acts are actually saying. WoA can be more casual but the words you choose speak volumes... "our car/bookshop", "id love for you to help me", "my friend crowley", etc.

whilst i don't necessarily subscribe to the psychology of love languages, they're useful for this sort of analysis. aziraphale does even branch out in other languages; he is constantly touching crowley this season; the pub, the ball, the bookshop in early ep6. quality time is a given, and has always been their common ground. giving gifts im not so sure on, but i think the significance of readily offering crowley the bookshop as being his - something that was wholly aziraphale's, not heaven's, and is aziraphale's own sanctuary - spoke volumes.

specifically in ep5 however, aziraphale really goes ham in demonstrating to crowley how he sees love, defines it, and that he could give this to crowley - the pinnacle of this being the dance and the evident romantic implications of it... it summarises all of aziraphale's own romantic idealistic make-up; touching, intimate conversation, choosing crowley as his partner, romantic literature, classical music, etc.

and whilst comedic and obviously reflective of crowley being otherwise preoccupied re: demon incursion, i also thought that the physical imagery of aziraphale literally dragging him to the dancefloor, and crowley questioning when they've ever danced in the past, was particularly telling about crowley's reaction to how aziraphale is trying to convey to him, without saying the words, that he loves him.

aziraphale in s2 truly does give crowley everything that he can. his love is quiet, and gentle, and romantic, and whilst not as high stakes as saving aziraphale's life, it is still valid. however, it seems that where aziraphale seems to have recognised his feelings quite early on and acknowledged them early on, having time to settle them into his soul (even if he couldn't act for fear of heaven), s2 seems to indicate that crowley refused to acknowledge his until the eleventh hour.

but crowley's love has been there all along, ticking away. ignoring his tendency to stick his oar in where it isn't needed (saving aziraphale and treating him as if he were made of glass), he shows his love in his own ways - following aziraphale around soho, silently supportive, admires him for calming down the bookshop and handling the IB situation, tidies the bookshop for him (which also possibly indicates that he's now finally accepting the bookshop as his home), etc.

both of them take a swan dive in the declaring-love endgame in ep6, but neither of them are responsive to the love language that they usually give. aziraphale is given words but wants actions, and crowley is given actions but wants words. the chronic lack of communication between the two of them throughout the show is the main contributing factor to this disconnect, and leads to serious ramifications in their ability to possibly mend it going into s3.

aziraphale: pre-fall

at the risk of daring to contradict LWA✨ in their assessment of aziraphale's feelings towards the angel-who-crowley-was (AWCW) in the pre-fall scene, upon reflection i don't get the sense that aziraphale falls in love with AWCW in this moment. and exactly as pointed out by @assiraphales, we don't have any of the gaps filled in between this scene and The Wall, so it's arguably unknown when exactly those feelings deepened.

there is definitely attraction of some kind (can angels experience physical attraction? presumably they do, if aziraphale thought the "gorgeous" comment was directed at him), an admiration of AWCW's abilities, and an immediate concern for AWCW's wellbeing if he were to question god. but i don't get the sense that he falls in love; more that he's bumped into a cool, attractive kid outside his locker and immediately starts spouting angelic heart eyes, and at the least develops an immediate fascination.

AWCW is presented as being rather classist in this scene, and whilst not outright maliciously rude, he definitely seems to look down on aziraphale, or consider him relatively inconsequential. which is odd, because i think if he actually listened to what aziraphale was telling him, aziraphale actually comes across as having his own brand of status. i can't imagine that any bog-standard angel would be entrusted with helping god with building Her ultimate creation, building humans, and being allowed to see the Great Plan. whilst maybe not the same level as AWCW, i think the fandom is underplaying aziraphale's own significance in this part of the story.

the fact remains however that the aziraphale we see in this scene is still the fundamental foundation of the aziraphale we see later on in the story. AWCW calls for him as he's wandering (rocketing) past, and aziraphale doesn't hesitate to come to AWCW's aid. he's presumably going somewhere, but prioritises helping someone who needs him, and does so out of kindness and then, it seems later on, out of attraction.

he recognises the achievement of AWCW's nebula, asks questions to learn more (and thus demonstrating his interest) of the construction and purpose of AWCW's craft, and outright compliments it for its brilliance and wonder. all behaviours that id say is rooted in wanting to establish a friendship, and meanwhile developing an arguably shallow crush.

i think that these are also general admirations that aziraphale brings forward as he gets to know crowley as a demon, but has to adjust his world-view that he may admire the principle if not the act; he thinks crowley is clever and fun and talented, even if he doesn't condone the new ways in which crowley displays this.

there are definitely times where aziraphale is still caught up in crowley being a good person and concluding that crowley must still be an angel in all but name, but i do not necessarily think that he thinks lesser of crowley as a demon out of maliciousness. i think it's hard for aziraphale to conflate the two ideas that a) crowley has moments of being a good person regardless of hellish or heavenly identity, and that b) crowley doesn't want to be an angel. aziraphale still parallels good with angelicness, holds being good (and therefore being an angel) as the epitome of character, and can't as a result understand that if they were given the opportunity to change and improve the bad bits of heaven, why crowley wouldn't want to help him.

as LWA✨ says, the further we see their story progress, it becomes clear that aziraphale then begins to hold himself above crowley morally, and this is largely lynch-pinned on their separate identities as an angel and demon respectively. aziraphale constantly bats crowley down and puts him back in his place throughout s1, but less so in s2; in this, id refer back to aziraphale's insecurity around his being a good enough angel, but now that we have the context of AWCW having been aziraphale's technical superior, doing this possibly helps him to feel better about himself. this is abhorrent behaviour and is not at all kind, that can't be denied, but i think it is however possible to empathise with it.

aziraphale has spent a long time having an endless reserve of love and not having a lot of places where he can meaningfully channel it. he's got humanity and earth, but whilst he certainly cares for it, it doesn't mean that he candidly loves it. he still feels kinship to heaven and the other angels, but he certainly doesn't love them. in fact the only person he's ever had to fully pour out his love has been into crowley, but faced with the prospect that crowley may still be like his angelic self in that regard (ie not love him back), i think that love has been repressed so much that it's almost atrophied and turned self-destructive and self-sabotaging. in that context, whilst awful and generally inexcusable, aziraphale's behaviour starts to make sense.

crowley: Lucifer theory

i will preface this by saying that despite initial excitement, i don't necessarily think that crowley was lucifer in the colloquialised sense that we regard lucifer in general culture, but perhaps more represents lucifer in the wider sense of having a story that mirrors the one we can somewhat attribute to lucifer. whether or not he will actually be named as lucifer i think is up for debate, but in any case let's take a look at what lucifer's story actually entailed.

now i realise that i am absolutely not an expert on the matter, but there are indeed a wealth of misinterpretations where lucifer as a biblical figure is concerned. i am very behind on this discussion, angelology (shudder) is not in my limited repertoire of specialist subjects, and i welcome anyone else adding in their thoughts on the matter.

but if anyone else has zero knowledge on lucifer, like me, we'll start with the basics as i see them. name coming from the Latin for light- or dawn-bringer, lucifer has been linked to the planet venus in various tellings in roman mythology. given the occasional bright illumination of the planet as seen from earth, this is in part where we coming to the moniker Morningstar when also historically referring to lucifer. so on this base level, we have the link between lucifer and crowley by way of celestial context.

now down to a potential mistranslation, the hebrew for the name of satan, helel, has become synonymous with the name lucifer, down to their respective translations akin to the Latin for 'light-bringer'/'morningstar' as above, but that does not necessarily indicate that lucifer and satan are the same being. so this is where im fairly confident in that whoever crowley was, which is possibly lucifer, his story ran parallel to that of the former relatively unknown being and not the latter more infamous one.

crowley has referenced lucifer in s1, which has led to the debunk that the two are the same being, but when rewatching it, i think it can be completely reinterpreted:

c: "i never asked to be a demon. i was just minding my own business one day and then... "oh lookie here, it's lucifer and the guys!"... ah, hey - the food hadn't been that good lately, i didn't have anything on for the rest of the afternoon..."

this doesn't need to mean that AWCW was the one who came across lucifer and cohort, but possibly that someone else did, or just exclaiming it in the general sense. getting whimsical in the headcanon space, AWCW may well have been enjoying his afternoon, chatting with friends that he thought he could trust, and thought he could share his thoughts on challenging how things are run (same as he did with aziraphale). evidently, whatever happened completely bit him on the arse, and at minimum partially resulted in his fall.

there are multiple references to crowley being at least an angel of import, almost too many to count. however a common theme in many references to venus in various religious and mythological texts is the concept of reaching for higher power, but to be cast down and punished for it. given the indication (iirc) from interviews and also the pre-fall scene that crowley was up for collaborating with god on how to improve things in heaven, it could stand to reason that in a moment of anger or frustration he voices the thought that he could do a better job running the place.

and if other angels were behind him in this, equally dissatisfied with their lot in heaven, and being set aside by god in favour of humanity, it similarly wouldnt be a huge leap to think that this one sentence, this singular half-baked thought, might have precipitated the war. following said war, as LWA✨ suggests, it would make sense that in an effort to lick his wounds and keep a low profile, crowley would take or accept a middling rank in hell, and possibly even volunteer for the assignment of original sin; all the more opportunity to remove himself completely from the narrative between heaven and hell.

which then, now that i think about it, completely recontextualises crowley's aversion to being a part in helping aziraphale rebuild heaven. why would he want to, why wouldn't he be petrified of it, when the last time went so badly? there must be a sense of resentment towards aziraphale in this regard - what makes aziraphale, a potentially lower angel, so special that he would be invited to completely revolutionise heaven, when all AWCW did was make suggestions, and end up being villified for it? if he did join aziraphale, and challenged him, would aziraphale then be forced to cast crowley out again? what would crowley stand to lose this time?

so this is where i think the concept of crowley having a huge secret that he's keeping from aziraphale comes into play, and i agree must come out in s3. it would completely derail any faith that aziraphale had in crowley, for him to have kept such vital information from him, his potential part in the fall. i could imagine aziraphale interpreting the reveal of this secret as being that crowley fooled and hoodwinked him, however false or unintentional that might have been, and it representing the last vestige of aziraphale's innocence and naivety being swept away.

edit, because @baggvinshield has put this theory so eloquently and with far more comprehension and education than i could hope for: Lucifer theory

there are so many more topics that i have sat in various documents and in my notes as concerns these two characters; aziraphale's obsession with control and 'playing god', their shared inability to communicate effectively and meaningfully, crowley and his propensity for unintentional temptation, whether the love between them truly equates to any semblance of trust, etc etc. some of these topics have been alluded to in the above, but i felt that the above essay might be sufficient reading for now. im adoring (if a little bemused by it) the amount of discussion this silly little blog is generating, and im always more than happy to share my thoughts on anything GO-related where people want it!!!

and now - back to answering the hundreds of asks that have accumulated whilst i've hyperfixated on the above. ta-rah!✨💓

[tonydaddingham]

Gift for you guys:

Original Jewish interpretation -> Samael is the name of an angel. This angel holds the title of 'Satan'. Not an ENEMY of God but an executioner of those who don't truly respect God and God's will. Is permitted, by God, to test God's followers and then punish them as Samael sees fit. That's why he's the tempter and the adversary, but Judaism ultimately regards him as a force for upholding Good.

Christian interpretation -> Samael was the name of a cherub who opposed God and was stripped of his status for it. Usually the opposition is because he didn't want to bow to Adam and acknowledge mankind as God's perfect creation. Upon Falling, he becomes the Adversary, Satan, and plots against God. Rules over Hell and his fellow demons.

How does Helel/Lucifer come into play here -> Lucifer is the Latin translation of Helel. Here it's used as sarcastic and derogatory, to remind someone once great of how far they had fallen from their upstanding position. Around Medieval/Renaissance times, Christians began to use Lucifer as another name for Satan. Even though it doesn't refer to Satan in the original context, the sentiment is the same, so they felt it was fitting.

Examples: John Milton gets this messed up, and uses Lucifer as Satan's angel name. Neil Gaiman does NOT get this messed up, and his Satan takes up the name Lucifer after becoming the Devil, with Samael being more or less treated as a deadname.

awesome, thank you!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

Yeah one hole I've noticed with the argument against Crowley being an Archangel is that Crowley doesn't seem to be an average demon, even from the start? We know that AZIRAPHALE was sent to Earth as a punishment and he's low on the hierarchy. That's something that gets repeated. But they never indicate its the same for Crowley. He scored Hell's first and arguably most important victory. He constantly gets commendations. He's chosen for the "starring role" of delivering and raising the Antichrist, which Dukes of Hell are openly envious of and gets him direct praise from Satan, albeit with warning that not even Crowley will be exempt from punishment if something goes wrong. Shax refers to his place on Earth as a huge promotion she had to work hard for and he was just handed. They never actually say what Crowley's position is.

hi anon!!!✨

please would you mind referencing where aziraphale is described as being sent to earth as a punishment? i genuinely can't remember this detail from the show or book.

and also, in terms of hierarchy, my understanding from what neil has told us is that aziraphale is middling in rank (i will find the ask im remembering and link it, or correct if im wrong); that it goes:

god > metatron > gabriel > high archangels (eg michael and uriel) > lower archangels (eg sandalphon) > principality > angels lower ranked than principality (eg muriel).

i would imagine that the number of angels that form the lower ranks are the majority of the 10 million that gabriel mentions, and so would hazard that whilst not high ranking, aziraphale is by no means low ranking either.

but otherwise yes, completely agree with you!✨✨ but to anyone reading that still doubts, this is my logic (and by extension i imagine is anon's too!):

crowley re: his power, his recognition, and that he ensured original sin, this all indicates that he is in fact a ranked demon. so why would it not stand to reason that he is indeed a lord rank? hastur would rank above him as duke, which explains why he's the one to keep tabs on crowley, and then beelzebub as prince which would put them on the same ranking as gabriel, essentially ruling over their respective dominions (not a ref to the angel class, i mean hell and heaven respectively).

so by that same logic, wouldn't crowley indeed be a lord? a rank higher than whatever aziraphale's equivalent in heaven would be (ie a lower archangel)? and again, this would all fit with what shax is intimating; that if crowley was a lower archangel, he'd naturally fit for a lord of hell and his station on earth, whereas if she was lower-ranking she would have had to work to be promoted for it.

as for the scene i snipped, i can't imagine that hastur wouldn't call out crowley for saying he was a lord if he wasn't. yes, crowley was bluffing the situation to stall hastur (ie the legions of the damned), but it seems strange that he wouldn't immediately call out crowley for placing himself in that rank if he wasn't... does that make sense?✨

[tonydaddingham]

I *distantly* remember Gaiman saying there was a difference between archangels such as Sandalphon, and Archangels, of which there are traditionally only four. The only one of which that's missing from Good Omens is Raphael. And I'd personally think that Raphael is a bigger name than Uriel? Until we either see Raphael in canon ourselves or we get Crowley's angel name... he's not beating the Raphael allegations. Episode 1 of season 2 immediately makes this worse by purposely, specifically, NOT revealing Crowley's angel name. Also because Gabriel, Michael, and Uriel were brought into S1 because they were meant to play roles in the sequel- but not Raphael? It remains suspect.

this is basically as i understood the basic set-up too, just without the ability to immediately cite references like the other anons have done (frankly, staggering amount of biblical knowledge anyway you slice it)✨

it does seem deliberate and Occam's razor is telling me to double down on the hypothesis that crowley is at least an archangel, and was specifically raphael...

but in terms of not addressing the name, i guess it could equally be for The Bit, which feels like a neil thing to do, and i can imagine a scenario where it becomes GO lore that crowley is the-angel-that-shalt-not-be-named, but honestly who knows?✨

[tonydaddingham]

the "how'd you know i didn't do it?" line and that whole bit about high enough security clearance was neil dangling a carrot in front of every raphael truther that I'm afraid we're never beating the allegations 😔

NOT 👏 DISPROVING 👏 RAPHAEL 👏 THEORY 👏

[tonydaddingham]

Adding on to the debate but- speaking as someone who has multiple family members with Ph.Ds in Abrahamic Religions. Neither Satan being a former Archangel nor him being God's favorite are biblically accurate. Both are modern day misconceptions that actually contradict the Bible. Which says that Satan was originally a cherubim tasked with watching over Eden. Upon ascending (or descending?) to the role of the Devil, he becomes as powerful as the Capital-A Archangels. But he didn't start out that way.

👀✨

[tonydaddingham]

Mhmm Crowley how were YOU high up enough to know about the Book of Life and apparently feel comfortable enough to tease the cherubs. Also that he worked closely with the universe's "concept designer" (God)... and some other people have pointed out that angel Crowley's power seems to have been the same color as Gabriel's? And even as a demon, he can resurrect people. Which other demons and angels clearly CAN'T do (ie. zombies and Aziraphale being too late to save Morag). And the power scale Heaven uses for miracles is Lazari (resurrections); it's dependant on how many times a miracle is strong enough to bring someone back from the dead. Aziraphale on his own isn't even a blip on their radar- but Crowley would be, given that he brings Mr. Brown back unscathed the day after the demon army tore him to pieces?

once you eliminate the impossible etc etc 👀✨

the only thing that is still throwing me is the miracle that heaven clocked; im still half in the mind that it might have had something to do with goob (rip) being sat on top of the sigil in aziraphale's bookshop/something to do with metatron, but that's as far as that particular theory goes for me at the moment!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

Admittedly I'm going off more academic knowledge on angels and demons- Aziraphale would have have to been demoted. The Bible specifically names cherubim as the rank with the flaming swords that guard Eden's gates. Which is ranked right behind seraphim, and seraphim are the highest angel rank excluding Metatron and the Archangels. But later he's called a principality on Earth- meaning that he dropped about five ranks. Hell ranks are harder to figure out because there's no official demon classification system like there is for angels.

ahhhh that makes sense!!!

yeah i think GO!angelology (that is surely not even a word) is based on different religions' depictions, but largely follows the same loose structure... tbf tho, we haven't actually had dominions, or thrones etc introduced either - maybe they will exist in GO in the future?

or maybe it is the case that aziraphale was a cherub, and then got demoted, like you said? but that would muck about with the s2 pre-fall scene where crowley (whatever rank he is) was able to call aziraphale for help? if crowley were a lesser archangel, i can't imagine that he would be able to call a cherub to help, or even that a cherub would come... unless aziraphale was just That Nice Guy™, or had been demoted even before this point?

unless... crowley was a seraph? but i think it would be a little over-egged to suddenly state that crowley was a seraph building stars, and iirc (providing that neil would follow typical angelogical (that is not a word either) structure), seraphim are essentially god's personal singing choir?

ultimately though, who knows!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

On one hand it's kind of obvious and Neil said he doesn't like the theory. On the other we're kind of running out of options: he's the only Super Major angel who hasn't shown up or been mentioned at all. The implications that Crowley was one of the Princes of Heaven (& look, I've seen numbers ranging from 3 to 7 for them but Raphael is ALWAYS one and no name for Satan EVER is). Crowley's association with healing and the Bentley and he spends S2 matchmaking and Raphael is the patron of healing, travel, and lovers. The focus back on Crowley as Gabriel says he's the only First Order Archangel, and I'm specifically thinking about how actually in Islam RAPHAEL is the Supreme Archangel. Other demons remember their time as angels but Crowley doesn't, and we see that angels of particular power like Gabriel are stripped of their memories when they get demoted. He empathizes with Gabriel trying to work through his memory loss. Helel/Lucifer is the name of a star in the Bible, not an angel. The Bible also outright says that God made the stars, and between Crowley saying he worked closely with their "concept designer" (ie. God) and how Archangels in particular were responsible for carrying out God's will- and it doesn't seem to be unique to him, as Saraquel says she also helped with starmaking. And it'd make sense for Raphael, too- stars and nebulas are sources and maintainers of life all throughout the cosmos. I've seen people talk about how the symbol for physicians is a rod entwined with a serpent but honestly that's more of a Greek thing.

im still deciding on the amnesia theory tbh, and instead wondering if any of crowley's hazy memory of heaven has been down to a) being removed from heaven for so long, b) a part of his penance for his fall, if we similarly consider the (i think, i don't remember it being canon in GO) fic-centric rhetoric of falling meaning that god's grace and love is ripped from them, or c) crowley was honestly just a bit of a knob, doesn't remember anything he considered beneath him, and was just hung up on building the stars. that being said, i do have a couple of metas saved to read up on before i decide how i fall on the debate!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

The decision to give Crowley a massive power-up is annoying, in light of the novel's/series' original themes, but OK, it's happened. In light of the potential conflict in S3, I think the current speculation that he's /Lucifer/, not Raphael, makes sense: to balance them out, if Aziraphale is trying to stop the war in Heaven as the Supreme Archangel, then the initial "Arrangement" would be Crowley going back to Hell in an equivalent role to try to do the same. (With Aziraphale being the one to suggest the possibility, to mirror Crowley in S1.) Cue the usual disasters that follow when these characters try to follow a plan.

i do wonder sometimes if different factions of this fandom occupy a hive mind👀✨

[tonydaddingham]

Okay so can someone PLEASE explain the Lucifer theory to me. Because I've read posts on it and I'm going to be brutally honest here, as someone who's finishing up their doctorate in religious studies, it is Not Holding Up when literally every argument I've seen for it is easily debunkable and/or outright misinformed.

hi nonnie!!!✨ idk if im necessarily the best or most informed person on how to explain this, but ill link you to this ask i responded to (my take on the theory is the last section of my response, so unfortunately will require a long scroll to the bottom - apologies!)

the anon references the possibility of crowley having been lucifer in the 5th-8th inclusive screenshots in this post, and i also linked @baggvinshield 's take in the theory post too, as it was much more eloquent than my own!!!

ive had quite a few messages talking about lucifer and satan in religious texts, and id agree that there is a very good chance it will be debunked (and so be it!!!), but i do think that some people are forgetting that GO doesn't necessarily subscribe to only one theology or religious text or interpretation.

instead, as far as ive understood neil's responses when he's been previously asked about the religious foundation of GO, it consistently borrows and combines bits and pieces to form the GO-verse where angels and demons are concerned, so what may definitely be untrue according to religious texts may not be the case in this specific work of fiction... but that's just my take✨

[tonydaddingham]

Or maybe the reason why Crowley is able to look at Jim and go "he's going to be okay" and know how to push past his limits and understand what he's going through and make the connection to the house/furniture metaphor is because Raphael is the one you're meant to call on not just for help with broken bodies but also for emotional/spiritual support and is associated with mental health and compassion. I have connected the dots

i mean, quite possibly!!!✨👀

[tonydaddingham]

Technically there are TEN ranks in the hierarchy, not including the Metatron. Prince of Heaven (which is what Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael are, Uriel in some traditions) is the highest. It's just rather unfortunate that the word the Greek New Testament uses for them is "Archangel", because it literally means "chief angel", and theres. Already a rank titled archangel. The original Hebrew for the 3/4 of them is "sarim"- which DOES literally mean "Prince of Heaven". But yeah, both in actual Abrahamic religions and as personally confirmed by Gaiman and Pratchett- lowercase-a archangels are distinct from Capital-A Archangels. Take into account in the show that Crowley is confirmed to be a Dominion or higher- the only ranks higher than Dominion are Thrones, Cherubs, Seraphs, and Princes of Heaven. But he also mentions having been privy to scaring/teasing cherubs- which would indicate to me that he was their superior? Leaving Seraph or Prince?

Beelzebub is called a Prince of Hell, and there are Dukes and Lords of Hell, and also a Dark Council, so. Hell's hierarchy is just as unclear and confusing as ever.

yeah lmao it's regrettably not as clear cut as i was originally hoping, nonnie!!!✨ i think ultimately i just like to speculate on what his position/role/identity was in strict terms of how it would fit the existing narrative, because that makes the most sense to me!!! so to that end, as you've said, i definitely agree that he was one of the seraphim or a prince; and personally i think that latter fits better!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

Are there any new thoughts about the hierarchy in heaven, especially as it relates to Crowley?

I'm thinking that Crowley's displays of power (seriously, stop time? Wow.), are related to his status in heaven, which appears to have translated into his status/powers in hell.

In S2, episode 6 Crowley was able to unlock a file that required AT LEAST a Throne or Dominion level clearance. You shared that he appears to be a Lord of Hell (based on interaction with Hastur in S1). Of course, in S2 Beez offers him a Duke position, which is lower than Lord (I think).

Neil Gaiman shared a link that indicated that Thrones and Dominions are 3rd and 4th ranked, respectively. Of course, Archangels are in the bottom tier, below Principalities, but he did observe that there are multiple, conflicting hierarchies.

So that's a hot mess.

But the conclusion that I'm coming to is that Crowley is a lot more powerful than his "presentation of self." Which would explain the fairly spectacular joint-miracle at the beginning of S2.

Does this make sense? Am I missing anything?

hi @socalbruja, im so sorry ive taken so long to get to you!!!✨ been trying to pace myself where asks are concerned!!!

im a little confused on what i think about crowley's position in heaven was, following input from loads of people, but on the whole i am for many reasons still relatively convinced that he's going to be revealed as having been lucifer, or whatever lucifer's angelic name might have been - mostly because that i think it would fit his character arc and journey throughout the story, and it would fit him thematically

ultimately neil does an amazing job at compiling different theologies and religions and not dedicating necessarily to any singular one; a mixed representation of all of them, and none of them, to create something largely new and untold in his and terry's story - which is exactly why im excited to see how crowley's angelic identity will be portrayed, explained, and revealed!!!

there's certainly been a lot of clues so far that suggest he was, potentially, the prince of heaven referred to in s2, and i think that given the metatron's reaction to him, it would make sense that crowley was instrumental in the fall✨

[tonydaddingham]

Feel like it's worth pointing out that a HUGE part of the reason why Lucifer isn't used an an angel name (aside from Paradise Lost bc John Milton apparently had no media literacy when he read the Bible) is because it's meant to be derogatory. In its original context it's used as a sarcastic insult to indicate how far he has fallen from grace and prestige. He used to be viewed as good and bright and holy and now he's as worthless and impure as dirt.

Satan's angel name was Samael. 'Lucifer' is a name/title given to him AFTER Falling. That's why in Gaiman's other works invoking Christianity, 'Lucifer' is the personal name Samael gives himself after becoming Satan. It's bitter and biting.

hi nonnie!!!✨ you might be able to clear this up for me then, because my knowledge of angelology and general biblical text is practically non-existent... my understanding so far, largely etymologically as that's a bit more my milieu, is:

- satan's angelic name was helel, given in isaiah, which translates from hebrew root halal to mean "shining one" or similar, i imagine along the same lines of the greek root helio to mean the sun

- lucifer similarly comes from the latin translation of again the greek for 'lightbringer', and is a name given in roman mythology to the planet venus, and resulting in the moniker 'morningstar'

- lucifer as a name was therefore absorbed into christianity as being the alternate name for satan, but sources and theologies conflict on whether in original text they were in fact the same being

- samael refers to a jewish interpretation of satan, being that of an archangel that may or may not have fallen from grace, and in some contexts is also synonymous with the angel of death, as well as the instigator of original sin.

i mean ultimately, it is somewhat likely that in GO that all or some of these interpretations may conflate to form the idea and narrative of crowley, but ultimately the only thing we know for certain is that lucifer and satan may be two different beings in the lore -

iirc (someone please correct me if wrong), lucifer and satan are not two names that appear in any one sentence in GO; lucifer is referenced separately to satan/the devil. i just like the idea, and think it plausible, that whatever name is used, crowley will at least have the same narrative in his pre-fall story.

either way, once again, this is not my specialist mastermind subject, and in the end we could all be wrong, but it's fun to speculate!!! further thoughts and education on my part are very much welcome!!!✨

[tonydaddingham]

yeah but like. didn't crowley explicitly refer to lucifer as someone separate from himself back in season one. he's talking about how he hung around the wrong people and names the ringleader of those wrong people as lucifer

hi nonnie!!!✨ take a look at this ask i answered; it's a very long one, and my thoughts on crowley as owning the Lucifer narrative are at the bottom (apologies in advance for the amount of scrolling!) for ease however, in direct answer to your ask, my thoughts on this bit of crowley's dialogue:

(AWCW: Angel Who Crowley Was)✨