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scarlettlawyer · 5 years ago

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Part 13 of my reaction/commentary to the Phantoms & Mirages Saga, the fanfic series by @renegadewangs

(Chasing Phantoms): Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

(Haunted Specters): Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6

(Vanquishing Mirages): Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9

Vanquishing Mirages / Lifting Spirits: Part 10

Lifting Spirits: Part 11 Part 12

OH BOY we actually made it. Are we actually here? At the Lifting Spirits ending?! :O

It only took thirteen posts and thousands upon thousands upon thousands of words and a couple of AUs and fun off-topic detours but WE DID IT. But it was the journey that counts, not necessarily the destination, no? XD

It was only the three of them- Simon, Athena and Bobby himself who were visiting Lex. There were very few other people who would bother to pay their respects, Bobby supposed.

[…]

The ambassador was probably the only other person who’d visit the grave with honest intent.

I don’t… necessarily think that’s true, to be honest.

I have some thoughts about this that I won’t go into, but, there were many people deeply upset by the fake verdict in-universe.

Lifting Spirits, Chapter 18

ascending.

I can’t it’s so much, the sweetness the…

”His identity was mine up until two months ago and it’ll continue to be mine whenever my uncle deems it time to take me out for some exercise.”

PALAENO OUT HERE GONNA TAKE LEX FOR WALKS LIKE A HECKIN’ DOG LOL? I love it.

While this was a suitable alternative to execution, in a way it felt like they were cheating.

Okay I really liked this line on first read honestly because. Yes.

Like, this ties in a huge amount to what I said in the last post. It… DID kind of feel like cheating to me back then? In the sense that this is such a wonderful, happy ending for everyone to the extent that it almost felt like it shouldn’t be possible given the past and the characters involved. It felt like a bit of a meta line? And I really don’t know if it was intended as such, that’s just how I interpreted/read it!

And these are the EXACT lines wherein, tied with the open acknowledgement of the inability to please everyone discussed in the last post, seriously made me embrace and adore this ending one thousand percent.

The “cheating” comment seriously resonated with me and just, by alluding to it feeling like cheating… to just embrace it… The open acknowledgement goes such a huge way. There doesn’t need to be any internal sense of dissonance whatsoever if the story is right there with you in terms of self-awareness.

By saying “not everyone can be satisfied with the ending” in and of itself allows me to be fully satisfied, and to no longer have to worry about the fact that it can’t please everyone, since the story is already aware of this and having pointed out that pleasing everyone isn’t possible anyway.

Mind you, my perspective now is somewhat more akin to hissing “no it’s not cheating back off this beautiful ending is 100% earned and righteous shhhhh”.

I… am really rendered speechless with some of the wonderfulness of this ending… And I’d actually... forgotten a lot of wonderful details too? Because I’d only read it through once before, and the fact that rereading the series to do these reviews has taken some time means the largest gap of time had passed between the first and second reading when it came to these last few chapters (making my memory of them the least fresh before reading through a second time). So the entire time prior to actually reading them once again, I’d been entirely going off memory of my first reading from like… a few months ago now, when discussing things with my friend(s) and thinking up scenarios. So, some things were like reading afresh and they just kinda outright killed me (in a good way) as if it was better than I had even remembered it being. Two examples of this are, 1. I could not recall with certainty an instance of Lex referring to Palaeno as “uncle”, and while reading through Lifting Spirits, noticed that even after the surgery he was still just referring to him as “ambassador”. Which, made me wonder if he had… So, suffice it to say… Reading this ending and seeing how he continuously refers to him as “uncle” & “my uncle” SO many times in such a short timespan, blows me away, and WOW!! WARMTH & LOVELY EMOTIONS ABOUND. 2. THIS IS KIND OF SKIPPING AHEAD TO THE LAST CHAPTER I GUESS BUT SIMON OUTRIGHT ACKNOWLEDGES THEM AS FRIENDS!!!!!!!! PLEASE I DIE OF WARMTH. I did NOT remember that, it is so… casually acknowledged!!! Like yes, yes, it is clear as DAY that, by the end, there is friendship among the trio, but it is casually verbalised by Simon like that and oh my goodness.

Lifting Spirits, Chapter 19

I will have to say that for the Lifting Spirits ending, I was way, way more invested in the themes of family and family dynamics instead of the shipping side of things. But SHIPPERS GOTTA SHIP and I respect that XD

Things spiraled out of control further and further.

Alexander… Luster Jr

Not with someone else, only Benny. …For now, anyway.

…AND HOW MANY NEW PEOPLE IS HE PLANNING ON MEETING WHEN ON HOUSE ARREST, EXACTLY?!

Lifting Spirits, Chapter 20

Really love the parallels vs differences between Benny and Lex illustrated so clearly in this chapter.

He didn’t want her to die. It seemed unfair of her to have to die while he got a second chance at living.

OH MY GOD? I Had TOTALLY FORGOTTEN THAT THIS GETS ADDRESSED/MENTIONED IN THE ENDING WHEN I’VE SPENT THE LAST FEW WEEKS/MONTHS ECHOING THIS EXACT SAME SENTIMENT!!!!

WILD that I had forgotten about this being brought up directly in the text considering how much I’ve been “”complaining”” about this EXACT “double standard”.

My memory must be SO bad I genuinely thought that Mirage didn’t even get any mention anywhere in the ending, and that after Lex’s meeting with her in the prison she promptly Disappears never to be mentioned again in Lifting Spirits, which felt INCREDIBLY unjust and to do her character a severe disservice. Once again I am a FOOL. A FOOL. That’s my entire Phantoms and Mirages reading experience let’s just be clear: me just, fumbling around blindly and making a fool of myself xDD

I actually think this being brought up directly in the text is the precise thing which planted this thought in my head in the first place too, and then I just, forgot that it was brought up in-story and started going around thinking it was my Own Original Sentiment, pffffff. THAT’S UH. A BIT OF A RUNNING THEME ABOUT THINGS FROM THE ENDING ACTUALLY. This is what I get for reading the ending Once and then needing to go off of memory alone for the next few months: suddenly it starts seeming like my ideas are Totally Original, Not Drawn From Direct Textual Hints/Discussion Or Anything. LOL.

Lifting Spirits, Chapter 21

“Don’t do anything I wouldn’t do!”

I have no clue if this was intentionally meant to echo one of the Phantom’s statements in Chasing Phantoms, but I found myself noticing it, at least on second readthrough, nonetheless!

“It would be best if you wipe that smirk off your face and hold your tongue, Bobby, as I’m quite certain your assumptions won’t sit well with me.”

Benny is right there? He’s right th

Hhhhhh I guess Benny is ok with the lack of openness then? dfhjbdfjfdkjb but Bobby’s RIGHT and Lex is a LIAR~

“I feel it is our duty as your friends to rub it in. Thirty eight years old, wasn’t it?”

“as your friends” once again, I’m ascending

Simon decided to tune out the remainder of the argument. Much as he believed Bobby had a point- the Jammin’ Ninja really was worthless against an opponent as grand as the Steel Samurai- he had no interest in partaking in the discussion.

SDKJNFDNJLFSDKJ

The former spy dropped himself back in his chair to return his attention to the watch he was constructing.

The

Former

Spy

: D (I misremembered the “former” part being way earlier in the narrative… and was kinda “huh!” whenever the narrative would still refer to him as “spy” long after the surgery on this readthrough… This is an example of my oversimplification of the distinctions the text makes between Lex and the phantom; in reality, there was still a transition involved, and things/characterisation wasn’t as clear-cut as I’d remembered it being in a “before vs after the surgery” sense. The subtle changes are… super great).

Okay, so for this ending (and the plot of Lifting Spirits), there was ONE thing that slightly nagged at me. Ultimately, I couldn’t be happier with how things turned out. But one thing that did strike me is that the Phantoms and Mirages narrative very clearly frames the phantom’s lack of emotions – their impairment as a result of the bone sliver – as a disability. Through the removal of the bone sliver, this disability is ultimately “cured”, and Lex is given the opportunity to become a “real” and good person.

In real life, in the vast majority of cases, there is no ready cure for disabilities, and a person’s disability cannot be readily separated meaningfully from who they are. It is something with them their whole life. It could be said that the disability itself is being kicked aside in this narrative instead of being accepted. (But, of course, given the context, it’s pretty understandable). There’s the slight potential for things to go awry if you warp some kind of message out of the narrative somehow such as “oh, it’s okay, if you’re disabled you can still have a happy ending… You just need to “cure” your disability first!” but that is obviously an extremely unfair and uncharitable reading.

I think it’s important to clarify that the Phantom’s lack of emotions – his disability in and of itself is not what made him a bad person (obviously), it was his actions. And I think that the narrative does make that pretty clear.

But the thing is,

It’s NOT actually the case that Lex gets suddenly magically “cured” of everything. That’s not the case at all! He must continue to struggle and to strive – he may not be emotionless anymore, but now he has to deal with the opposite, which is a sort of handicap all on its own. There are lasting repercussions from the bone sliver in the sense that now he must learn to deal with the intensity of what he is feeling. With that in mind, to frame it in terms of a “disability being kicked aside” is a pretty incorrect reading.

I said this in a previous post when I kind of touched on this kind of thing:

It’s just, the notion of a character actively striving to be good and overcoming themselves vs a sudden fix that gets externally applied

But another thing is… In my mind, I had exaggerated somewhat just how much of an effect this “sudden fix that gets externally applied” has as well. Lex must not only strive to overcome the extremity of the emotions he feels now, but there continues to be development throughout Lifting Spirits regarding how he interacts with the characters around him. It’s not like he gets the surgery and his characterisation/bonds with the others suddenly and abruptly jumps to where it was at the end and remains consistent through the whole fic; not at all. There CONTINUES to be development as he makes progress towards the point he’s at in the ending, even after the surgery.

Another thing about this ending is that it is so nice.

I think that Lifting Spirits, at its core, is a really beautiful story and concept. It really is. And part of why I had, perhaps, fought against or figured I wouldn’t find a good ending convincing is because I had convinced myself that it just wasn’t possible for the phantom as a character in general to ever achieve any kind of happy ending no matter what, EVEN IF I might like such a thing. I must make some clarification here, because other stories do offer a good kind of happy ending for them, but not in the same manner in which Lifting Spirits does, Lifting Spirits definitely feels like a different “kind” of good ending and a more “direct” good ending at that. I hope that makes some sense, because articulating the difference does seem kinda difficult.

Usually with favourite characters you want them to be happy, but with the phantom it had never been like that… I only ever wanted, or expected, angst or whatnot because… I simply did not think anything else was possible. And I was pretty content with that. But you… You…!

Anyway, there is another big aspect of the ending’s greatness that I want to talk about too. It’s kind of open-ended in the best possible way…

So many things happen that well and truly make it seem like the story is drawing to a close, and YET, simultaneously, there is very much this sense of new beginnings as well, and this ending works equally well regardless of whether there’s another instalment or not.

Something little like Simon getting his hair cut, or Bobby and Simon officially moving in with each other, are awesome things that feel very significant, that make you go “wow, we really are at the wholesome, satisfying, grand conclusion to it all huh? We’ve spent so much time with these characters, but now it’s finally time for them to go on their merry way, and continue to go on with their lives beyond the text written on the page.” They are CHANGES, changes to the “status quo”. You certainly get the impression that even if the story might be “over” for the reader, it certainly isn’t over for the characters – and that is the impression we would still get if there was absolutely nothing else written beyond Lifting Spirits – that their story would continue on regardless, and there would still be… adventure.

Because that’s another thing about the ending to Lifting Spirits. It closes off, and wraps everything up so very nicely. But at the same time, it remains poised, there is just this huge atmosphere of “stuff can still go DOWN” building. It’s the perfect ending where everything gets wrapped up but it is also the perfect set-up for anything to happen beyond the conclusion.

I sense this VERY STRONGLY in the segments where, for example, Benny considers how maybe he might need all the weapons and skills he has. Feels very “calm before the storm”.

Part of what’s so great about something like Simon getting a motorcycle is that the “the subway sucks” and “Simon trying to learn how to drive” subplot(s) have been present in the series from the very beginning. And finally, finally, after trying and failing at learning to drive regular cars, Simon has successfully escaped the subway at the very end.

We are given such hints on what could lie beyond, but also, from the way things are? There are a million different ways things COULD pan out in future, and the audience is only left to wonder.

We are given this strong hint that MAYBE… just maybe, this situation isn’t quite sustainable indefinitely. That perhaps, something’s gotta give at some point.

And that no matter what, the characters probably have some wild times ahead of them. Like that’s the thing: Even if Tracking Ghosts didn’t exist, I’d be left with the lasting impression that events of “Tracking Ghosts” length may still await the characters in the future.

But it’s all left so perfectly VAGUE. All left only in the realm of possibility.

I was satisfied to the extreme with the ending, I had to just take it and run at the time (of course I always planned on reading on), although back then to an extent I was outright BAFFLED at there still being this huge instalment to go. In the words of my friend, back then when I told her that Actually, there’s STILL even MORE to read:

Like, it truly felt like EVERYTHING had already been said and done. So how…?!

And since then, of course, I have not continued reading on as of yet, which has given me plenty of time to think.

And I have since realised that, as well and as thoroughly as Lifting Spirits DOES wrap everything up, there are still tiny, potentially loose threads. Tiny threads that could be unravelled until they could give way to all manner of things, scenarios, plots.

And that aside, there’s so much else that COULD happen as well. The Lifting Spirits ending is rife with potential. It is absolutely brimming with it.

And I also found myself realising that hey, there actually are things that haven’t been said and done yet. That there ARE little tiny things left nagging at me.

Tracking Ghosts contains a whole new threat, elaboration on Lex's emotional instability, road trips through Borginia, lots more 'Mirage' and Domestique LaSoote's backstory (oooh~). Also, the mother of all epilogues and a few more bonus chapters that take place afterwards.

Okay it is actually hilarious how little I remembered of all of this by the end. And that is to say: pretty much none of it. I straight-up forgot ALL of this being even mentioned in the Author’s Note at the end, and therefore have incorporated stuff like “road trips through Borginia” and “Mirage backstory” very VERY little in how I’ve thought about what to expect from Tracking Ghosts, at least in recent times, ahahahaha. Well I’ve got… quite a lot ahead of me, I’m sure.

I am certain that there’s so much more I could probably say about this series, I could continue to go on and on, but for now, there you have it, I think. I have not done this ending justice at all – it’s just so good it defies being done justice, and I don’t think I can fully articulate what I want to. But I’m content. Across so many posts, in thousands and thousands of words, I have already said quite a bit. XD

So now, all that’s left is to take that plunge and finally start to read Tracking Ghosts as I planned on doing once this series of posts was finished, huh? XD

I start my work week tomorrow, so it’s currently looking like… I will start reading it next weekend! It will have to be a weekend, sadly, as I can’t imagine starting and diving into something so huge when I have to try and focus on work/get sufficient sleep, lol.

OH I DON’T KNOW HOW TO END THIS POST-

Thank you, so much, for everything, and uh, apologies in advance for however much I might blow up your inbox/DMs/what have you when reading Tracking Ghosts. GENUINELY DON’T KNOW how much I will liveblog to you, if only a couple of things will slip through or if I’m just outright gonna go completely wild with it XD. IT WILL DEPEND ON THE STORY ITSELF AND HOW I’M FEELING I GUESS/my reactions.

These review posts have been… they’ve been really fun, I’ve enjoyed doing them a lot. They’ve been time consuming, but it was all 100% worth it and I’m very glad I set out to do them. I couldn’t not do them, really. I found myself realising that I just needed to tell you about the incredible journey/ride this series took me on one way or another – and, of course, I just have so many thoughts and so very many opinions about it. It lends itself so readily to analysis for me. But more than that, it feels like it SHOULD be analysed and subjected to analysis.

Talking with you is really great, and I hope to talk with you heaps more in future! Not just about your stories, just in general!

Thanks again, and I hope you have a great week! And then it will be TRACKING GHOSTS TIME.

#long post

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stereogeekspodcast · 4 years ago

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[Transcript] Season 1, Episode 2. Flashback Favourite – Supernatural

Supernatural came to an end in 2020. We look back at 15 years of the show and discuss why we loved it. Spoilers ahead for the finale of the show.

Listen to the episode on Anchor.

Read more about Supernatural here: Best Supernatural episodes Best Dean moments Best Sam moments The food of Supernatural Revisiting the Destiel scene on Supernatural

[Continuum by Audionautix plays]

Ron: Welcome to the second episode of Stereo Geeks! Today, we'll be talking about Supernatural. I'm Ron.

Mon: I'm Mon. In 2005, the world was introduced to Sam and Dean Winchester and their family business—hunting monsters. This year, in 2020, we said goodbye to the Winchester brothers and their lasting legacy. In this Flashback Favorite, we talk about Supernatural.

Mon: We’ll be discussing the entire series, including its finale, so there will be spoilers ahead.

Ron: We didn't we didn't start watching Supernatural in 2005.

Mon: No, I was too scared of horror stuff, so I refused to watch Supernatural

Ron: But I do remember us seeing the ads. I was quite intrigued. We eventually started watching it around the third or fourth season?

Mon: Yeah. I think it was after Mark Shepard attended the first Comic Con in Dubai.

Ron: That was in 2012.

Mon: He talked about it. And then we started following the show in earnest.

Ron: And then we went back to the first season and started watching it again. And yeah, it was quite the experience!

Mon: It's draws you in, especially with the dynamic between Sam and Dean Winchester.

Ron: Yes, the two brothers are similar in many ways to us.

Mon: Yes, I think so.

Ron: They're sweet. They're funny. They're sarcastic. They get into trouble a lot. But they always come back for each other.

Mon: And I like how it's always the little moments, which I like the most about their character dynamic. And the way they fight with each other. They get angry but then they have their backs, supporting each other at every turn.

Ron: That's exactly how you and I are. We fight. We get angry with each other. And then there's just a reason for us to come back together.

Mon: Absolutely. The show has been problematic at times and has a lot of issues. And we will touch on some of that in this episode. But honestly, it's really that central dynamic that keeps us coming back.

Ron: It's not just Dean and Sam that carry the show. We also see them grow their family. In the sense that they bring in Crowley, who is, for a long time, the King of Hell. Castiel joins them in season four, and he becomes an integral part of the show. He also becomes their family.

Mon: He's like a third brother.

Ron: He is a third brother. But, as we learn, he feels a lot more than that.

Mon: What do we enjoy about Supernatural the most?

Ron: Sam and Dean! Well, I like the fact that when we first started watching the ads for the show, we had very clear divide. I very much liked Sam, and you were very drawn to Dean.

Mon: I liked Dean because he’s snarky.

Ron: I liked Sam's sweetness. He was very sweet. He still is very sweet. He's also very much a younger brother.

Mon: He always needs to be protected and taken care of. But he's always very earnest. He's more responsible.

Ron: And he has a particular way of doing things. Whereas Dean is very much ‘let's just go and do something’. And sometimes, he doesn't plan. But Sam is very booksmart.

Mon: He's very meticulous. He's very organized. Dean is much more of the doer.

Ron: Sam is the researcher. And I am the researcher.

Mon: Yeah, I do.

Ron: You do things, I research things. So, that's definitely one of the biggest draws, that we saw parts of our personality in these two characters. But it was also the stories.

Mon: Yeah, it was very entertaining. We had so many different kinds of creatures from myths and legends. I would say I preferred when there were mostly vampires and werewolves. When the show really went into the biblical stuff? I've always struggled with it.

Ron: I guess I agree with that, as well. I do like how they handled the biblical elements. Angels are dicks. Demons can be friends. Those are unexpected ways of handling these elements. I really enjoyed that.

Mon: I think they worked really hard to subvert some of the expectations of it being seen as a religious show. I remember seeing an interview or something a long time ago, where Jared Padalecki was saying, when he saw the script, it was talking about angels and demons. He said, Oh, my God, is this becoming a religious show. But it wasn't. It was still the same show, just different characters and creatures being added to it.

Ron: And they really expanded their roster. Initially, the main antagonists were demons, and I enjoyed the way they were bringing in that kind of mythos. But I like the other kinds of creatures that they brought in from around the world.

Mon: I think we learned more about their interpretation of djinns and other creatures who, you know, you really had research!

Ron: Yes, we don't know that much about all the other places outside of India. We do know some of the legends from the United States and from the UK. But it is good to see some elements from South America.

Mon: There was that episode with the Japanese ghost, remember? Who's tied to that beer or wine? That was a funny episode.

Ron: Ma Kali ends up in one episode, played by Rakesh Sharma, who is very cool. So yeah, that was fun. Not many Indian elements in the show, but still enough to for us to enjoy.

Ron: But we need to talk about the fact that the show was supposed to end in season five.

Mon: You can clearly tell the demarcation between when they had a full plan and when they went off the rails. Eric Kripke, the creator of the Supernatural, he had a five year plan, and it was supposed to end with Sam making a sacrifice and taking Lucifer down with him to hell, and essentially saving the world. However, the show was renewed for another season.

Ron: Which is usually good news!

Mon: Unfortunately, that means that Sammy came back and they had to come up with a whole new plan. And you can see how varied and inconsistent the stories and seasons are from that point on.

Ron: I think season six still works. They had soulless-Sam, which was a very interesting interpretation of the character. But season seven, you can that it was laboured.

Mon: I don't think anybody thought the Leviathan were interesting or scary creatures. And it was probably the most forgettable season, aside from maybe a few episodes here and there.

Ron: True. Dick Roman as a villain would have worked in 2020. The corporate douchebag definitely is a villain right now. In season seven? Not so much.

Mon: You're right. And he didn't have that kind of charisma. They didn't pad up that mythos. It really did that season a great disservice.

Ron: And remember, this is the season where Bobby died.

Mon: Oh, really?

Ron: Yes. He died at the hands of Dick Roman. When we look back at it now, Bobby, who was basically Sam and Dean's adoptive father, going down to somebody like Dick Roman is so unfair.

Mon: Oh, wow, that is unfair. And then we move on to other seasons, which honestly, they're a blur from eight to 15. They really are a blur. We had purgatory, that was an interesting the concept. I loved it. Dean being stuck in purgatory, fantastic concept, and him befriending a vampire, Benny? Dean, of all people, who hates anything which is not human, almost sacrificed himself to bring a vampire back to Earth. That was quite an arc for him.

Ron: It was a great way of changing the character. And it cemented Dean and Cas' relationship while they were in purgatory. Despite the fact that they were separated for a very long time, Cas comes back to him when Dean prays to him. It is a very beautiful moment. And now that we know how Cas felt. A lot of people have been pointing to that moment saying, this was one of the one of the earliest indications about how Cas really felt about him.

Mon: Actually, that does make sense. Because Cas bends every possible rule in the angel-rulebook to save Dean and Sam and the rest of the Winchester family.

Ron: Yes. Cas was obviously a rule follower for a very long time until he met Dean. And then his entire concept of what was good and bad completely changed and it's quite touching.

Ron: Of course, the show wasn't without its problematic moments.

Mon: In the early seasons of Supernatural, I have to argue that Dean may have come across as a creepy dude. Just because he has that sweet face and general charisma, and of course, he has a good heart. He would lie to a lot of the people he would meet to get his way.

Ron: I actually don't remember that. I'm kind of relieved that I don't.

Mon: He used to go around telling ladies that he was a producer or something. That is textbook, 101, creepy guy behavior.

Ron: The problematic elements that I was thinking about was the fact that they do not have enough people of color on the show.

Mon: Okay, we are talking about systemic problems.

Ron: And also, the ladies on the show almost always ended up dead.

Mon: They're all dead. We don't have any in the finale.

Ron: If you go back to the very first episode, not only did we lose Mary Winchester in the past, we also lose Jessica, Sam's girlfriend. Later, we lose Jo, and her mom, Ellen

Mon: They are fellow hunters and were series regulars for a while, but they died in a blaze of glory.

Ron: Later on, Charlie joined the show, played by Felicia Day. She was pretty much a little sister for them

Mon: Charlie was the first queer character of note on the show and she was a regular for several seasons

Ron: She was a great character. She brought out such a wonderful side to them. Made the brothers very protective. They were very friendly. They enjoyed having her around. She's so smart. so helpful and Then she died.

Mon: She got killed by the least-memorable characters on the show ever! It was an ignominious death because she was killed by Frankenstein's descendants. Let's not even go there.

Ron: Very unfortunate.

Mon: Apart from Charlie, there were very few queer characters on the show, in latter seasons. We did see a few more but they were never there for more than an episode.

Ron: Dean did pair up with a couple of hunters, who we learned during the duration of the episode, that they were a married couple. They were also two men of color. So, it was a bit surprising considering the show had been not very friendly with queer characters before.

Mon: They were downright homophobic time to time.

Ron: I have to agree with that. If you remember the Supernatural convention episode, where a pair of Sam and Dean cosplayers turn out to be a couple. Dean did not look happy.

Mon: Yeah, Dean was very homophobic in the earlier seasons. But I think he got over it.

Ron: I hope that that was a criticism from the fans that the show actually understood and they worked towards overcoming. But I feel like now, when we rewatch older seasons, there will be elements that will be a bit more jarring than when we first saw them.

Mon: I worry about watching a lot of stuff from a few years ago, simply because there are so many elements which may have been considered the norm, but right now would be horrible to watch.

Ron: The show tended to focus mostly on white, male characters.

Ron: If you look at the posters for last maybe seven or eight seasons, there were only white men.

Mon: There was Sam, Dean, Cas, and Crowley and then it changed to Sam, Dean, Cas, and Jack.

Ron: There was room to change that. But the show never seemed to take it.

Mon: I don't know if it was because they were just blinkered or they just didn't care. But they didn't try hard enough. We started seeing more characters of color among the extras, among the episode regulars but even then, we could probably count them on one hand.

Ron: Unfortunately, that's been a problem with not just Supernatural. A lot of the CW shows, and a lot of shows in general.

Mon: Especially genre shows.

Ron: They do skew very white and male.

Mon: All that being said, I think a lot of Supernatural fans love the dynamics and the character arcs. Which is why it's lasted 15 seasons. It has attracted fans from all over the world, across races and orientations, which is a testament to how hard they've tried to make it an entertaining show.

Ron: It's definitely entertaining. Mainly because Sam and Dean find new ways to get out of situations.

Mon: There's action, there's drama.

Ron: There's a lot of heart. And I think that's why people like the show so much. That's why we like the show.

Ron: A great story can attract people, but great characters keep them watching.

Ron: What are some of your favorite episodes?

Mon: I started with ‘Mystery Spot’. That was the first full fledged Supernatural episode that I watched. It was probably not the best introduction because it was hilarious. But it was a great introduction to the two characters, and the differences between Sam and Dean. Dean's antics and his many, many deaths in that episode were just too good. Sam's reaction to having to relive that particular day. Brilliant. Also, the final arc of the episode is Sam desperately trying to figure out a way to save Dean, which gave me an inkling into how interconnected and dependent there relationship was. And also that it was the first of many, many resurrections after.

Ron: ‘Mystery Spot’ is also one of my favorite episodes, it is absolutely hilarious. But another episode that was also very funny was ‘Yellow Fever’.

Mon: That episode, it's just too good.

Ron: Jensen Ackles kills that episode. He is so good.

Mon: That guy has so much range. He can be so emotional, so dramatic. And yet, so funny.

Ron: He has excellent comedic timing. My favorite moment is always going to be him finding that cat, and losing his mind screaming.

Mon: I cannot not laugh at that. Even now, just thinking about it is making me laugh. And he makes it work. He really makes those silly moments, that slapstick humor work.

Ron: What are the other ones that you like?

Mon: Something that I have always found interesting, especially in the latter half of the series, they've tried to shake things up a bit, do things which are unconventional.

Ron: One of the bolder and probably more successful choices they made was the ‘French Mistake’.

Mon: It’s the first time they went meta.

Ron: Apparently, they were quite concerned about how people would react to it. I have read some pieces about how ‘French Mistake’ doesn't work. But as fans of the show, ‘French Mistake’ definitely works!

Mon: Yes, I recall reading about Jared Padalecki talking about how when he and Jensen Ackles were called into the writers’ room, they were quite worried. And then they found out that this episode was going to be transporting Sam and Dean into the real world, where they will become Jensen and Jared. And it was basically a caricature of all these actors, they loved it, how the episode turned out, it was hilarious. It was funny. It was a joke-a minute. And it worked.

Ron: Everybody plays these really odd versions of themselves. Misha, is so good as this mousy outsider who doesn't quite fit in. It's brilliant. I definitely love that episode.

Mon: We have seen it so many times.

Ron: It's actually embarrassing, the amount of times we’ve seen it but I don't care because it makes me happy.

Mon: Two of the more unconventional episodes, which really shouldn't have worked, but are brilliant, and I would say the top two episodes in the entire series, and they are ‘Baby’ and ‘ScoobyNatural’.

Ron: ‘Baby’ is an episode where the entire story is told through the car's eyes. It's amazing.

Mon: The camerawork, the story itself. It's everything and they don't miss a beat. There's action in there, there's drama, there's bonding between the brothers. It's so beautifully played out because baby has been a character in the show for a very, very long time.

Ron: The season five finale did something similar. It made the story about how baby had seen Sam and Dean grow up. But this episode took it one step further by showing it from her point of view. And it was just so engaging. It is beautiful.

Mon: It was really beautiful, especially because sometimes a gimmick is just a gimmick. But this is not. This was a story seen from the point of view of an unconventional character but a very important character in the show.

Ron: And anybody who's watched the show from the very beginning will love this episode, because we love the car.

Mon: Yeah, that's for sure. And what about ‘ScoobyNatural’? When I heard about it. I was so scared.

Ron: I didn't want to watch this episode. We grew up watching Scooby Doo. We enjoyed the show, but it was very much a child’s show. We didn't think that we would actually engage with it as adults. And then ScoobyNatural came along, and we completely changed our mind.

Mon: I don't know how they made it work. It is so good. It has the ethos of Supernatural, but it maintains the tone and style of the original Scooby Doo cartoons. I think it's a testament to the fact that it's just entertainment. That's all that it is. And it still got those character moments, not just for Supernatural fans but for Scooby Doo fans. It was so good.

I love the fact that they were still able to include those silly little Scooby moments, like them running through the doors in the corridor, them getting scared by a ghost which is actually a human being. And the main story itself is in line with how Scooby Doo episodes used to be structured, but it still has the ethos of Supernatural.

Ron: The way they marry these two completely different shows, which are intended for different audiences, is just so incredible. And it's one of our favorites.

Mon: I can't imagine anyone who’s a fan of both the shows to go into that particular episode and not come out loving it. I was definitely worried about this very odd marriage of concepts. But while it was that, it was so entertaining.

Ron: I think our top five favorites from Supernatural are always going to be the most entertaining episodes and ‘ScoobyNatural’ has to be on that list because of that reason.

Mon: Well, let's talk about how confusing that finale was.

Mon: Well, a lot of people were confused by the ending of season 15, episode 19, because they had a little montage saying goodbye to all the characters who had appeared on the show. And Sam and Dean were basically riding off into the sunset.

Ron: It felt very much like a finale.

Mon: The boss fight had happened. Chuck was gone. Jack was God. What else did you need? But there was still one more episode. We were all confused. A lot of people on the internet were confused. You and I definitely were.

Ron: We actually had to Google it.

Mon: We were certain that we had got it wrong. Anyway, the next week, there was the actual finale, which started off as any other Supernatural episode. It began with the boys in the bunker, going through their daily routine, eating food, being silly, Dean finding a pie fest to enjoy some pie. And then they ran off to hunt some vampires. Everything was going just like the old days. And then Dean got impaled!

Ron: And you and I held hands and cried silently, because we could not believe it was happening.

Mon: So, this is how they set up the shot. You saw that giant nail sticking out of the pylon. And I was convinced, like most people, that yes, Dean is going to use that to impale the vampire so that Sam can cut off his head. And then when somebody did get impaled, I was like, yes, they caught the vampire. No, I was wrong. It was Dean who was impaled. And there was no getting out of it. It was such a shocking moment.

Ron: And we realized what had happened before Sam.

Ron: Because Sam didn't see that nail. So, he cuts off the last vampire's head, and he's just asking Dean to come along. And Dean can't, he's literally stuck.

Mon: Okay. I found that scene overlong, but it was literally made so that it would eke out our emotions along with the characters’ emotions.

Ron: I agree, because Dean's death speech would make a Bollywood film proud.

Mon: It lasted 15 minutes.

Ron: I think it was a very, very long scene. I was literally thinking to myself, how are you not dead yet?

Mon: He hasn't bled out. He hasn't gone ashen. That being said… the tears! It is a tearjerker.

Ron: There's a lot of emotion, on screen and off screen.

Mon: The restraint that the two actors showed as they delivered their lines was brilliant. But then when they finally… we're coming to the close of the scene, and the two of them, they touch heads, they hug each other, and then they really just let it go, let go of their emotions. Fantastic. It was a roller coaster ride.

Ron: Can I just say that Jared Padalecki has been astounding this season. From the very first episode of season 15, it feels like he's not actually acting, he's just there.

Mon: He's so natural. That scene where he’s half-sad, half-angry at Dean? That scene in the car when he's so furious at Dean for lying to him about Jack. Amazing. He should be given an Emmy just for that scene.

Ron: Because that kind of scene can be easily overacted. We have seen that kind of scene being overacted even on Supernatural. But everything is much more restrained. Much more organic this season. And especially the second half, which obviously had to be shot during the pandemic. You could see that they didn't have the kind of time or the luxury of reshooting sections. So they did their best when they had the opportunity.

Mon: I wonder if the break because of the pandemic also helped them reconnect with the characters and reconnect with their own talents, which is why the latter half just felt more natural?

Ron: I have to agree with that. In fact, I read that Jensen and Jared didn't actually get holidays for most of their run on Supernatural. So, the enforced break from the pandemic would have given them an opportunity to just reconnect with themselves.

Mon: I'm not surprised, actually. The schedules they have are insane on The CW.

Ron: So how did you feel seeing Dean die for good? Since Dean is your favorite?

Mon: Shocked! I couldn't believe it. No, seriously. You remember when the ads came on? And I was like, ‘no way did they kill Dean. No way!’ And I went on and on, because I was sure that this can't be happening.

Mon: My one argument would be that at one point, Sam says, ‘okay, we'll figure it out. We'll find a way to resurrect you’. And Dean says, ‘no, no more resurrections’. I feel like they needed a stronger line over there. Perhaps one that says there are no more resurrections anymore. Something to say that the world has reset. Because when you leave an opening, it seems really sad. And we'll get into why it seems even sadder that that if Sam had the option to go and resurrect him, why wouldn't he? So, I would argue that that's the only point where I really needed a stronger hand in the script.

Mon: But it still didn’t diminish the impact of what happened to Dean. He goes out exactly the way he thought he always would. In a fight, dead at a young age.

Ron: That is actually even sadder when you say it.

Mon: That's precisely what he says to Sammy, that this is how I was always meant to go.

Ron: Dean's trajectory was always going to be a young death. But it doesn't mean that that it doesn't hurt.

Mon: For sure, for sure. And I think because we were all expecting a happy ending and we will talk about the happy ending soon. We were all expecting a happy ending for these two brothers who have fought so hard for each other and for the world, that it comes as a real shock that the creators went for it. The world is cruel.

Ron: This is true. The world also goes on, no matter who you lose. I feel like this episode hits different because of the pandemic.

Ron: People have lost a lot of people. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't know somebody they've lost. We people who are gone now because of COVID. And everybody else is left behind. I think the finale was trying to tell us that people die. And the people who are left behind are grieving in their own way. But they don't have a choice.

Mon: And they go on with life, which is what we see Sam do. From the montage that we see, it seems obvious that Sam has lived a very full life. We can't know for sure whether it is a very happy life. We can just hope.

Ron: From what we see, Sam does have a happy life. It just has a Dean-shaped hole in it.

Mon: Well said. Who do you suppose Sam's wife is?

Ron: I don't know. I really, I really wanted to see who it was. You see a shape in the back when he's playing with baby Dean. But I couldn't tell who it was.

Mon: I feel like because they cast an extra with long dark hair, she has to be Eileen. I'll tell you why. When Sam gets a call on Dean's phone for another case, the person specifically says Donna mentioned that you can help. Which means that Donna is back alive, which means Eileen is alive. And we know that Eileen and Sam were together before she disappeared, thanks to Chuck. So, I think Sam and Eileen had a happy life together, had baby who becomes grown up Dean. But as you said, there's always going to be that Dean-shaped hole.

Ron: And we know that Sam still misses Dean, because, well, he calls his son Dean. But he keeps the Impala. He does not drive the Impala. He leaves the bunker. And we see a much older Sam rip of the cover from the Impala. And when he sits inside, he is so full of sorrow and anger. And it's a great scene. It's so moving and all I could think was so many years have gone by and he still misses Dean. That is never going to change.

And I also like the fact that obviously, young Dean has been told stories about his lovely uncle. Because when Sam is on his deathbed, he is still holding on like Dean did. And young Dean then tells Sam the same thing that Sam told Dean so that he could go.

Mon: I think the episode was actually really good.

Ron: It's been very frustrating seeing what's been written on the internet about it.

Ron: I know people have different points of view about the show. The fandom is varied. The fandom has different reactions to it. There are a lot of people who stopped watching the show, understandably, after season five. It was a bit of a slog at times, but we hung on and this season finale, it rewards people who stayed throughout. Because there are a lot of moments in the last two episodes that call back to moments after season five.

Mon: One of the things that really worked for me with the finale, especially with Sam and Dean, their history really comes to the fore. The finale was a celebration of the central love story of this show, which is Sam and Dean and them being brothers for life, irrespective of how their lives actually turned out. The fact that Sam spent probably half his life without his brother, it is still a celebration of how much they loved each other, how much people in reality continue to love the people that they've lost.

We also have to remember that this finale was shot in the middle of a pandemic. There are going to be constraints, and you can see it. There is no way that the original finale, whatever storyline that they planned to go with, would have had such a limited cast of original characters.

Ron: Very true. There were also a few makeup moments that were very strange.

Mon: Let's be honest, Sam's old wigs were terrible.

Ron: And there was absolutely no makeup on his face.

Mon: It's like he grew old, but he didn't. Where can we get that superpower? That being said, Jared Padalecki, the way he held himself as an old man? Brilliant. He was trying so hard to make the lack of makeup work and the lack of a good wig really work for him, to show how many years had passed.

Ron: That scene in the Impala is the one with the bad wig and the no-makeup, but it still hurts when you see him so upset and still missing his brother.

Mon: What I feel is sometimes some people get so stuck in the technicalities of moments and scenes that they lose the bigger picture. We all want everything to be perfect. But if you're going to lose the essential message, the essential feeling, then maybe you’re missing the whole point of why this finale exists?

Ron: There were way too many people weighing in on the finale, making memes about the Impala going to heaven and not Cas. And I can't help but think, did you watch the finale?

Mon: I did not know people were doing that. They literally talk about Cas being Jack's right-hand man. He helped shape the new version of heaven. How are people not seeing that? And I understand some people's grievances. Let's briefly mention the Destiel moment from Episode 18 of this season. Cas and Dean are running away from Death. And the only way for them to survive is for Cas to sacrifice himself to the Empty.

Cas knows that the only way to successfully call the Empty, he has to be at his happiest moment. And he is the most happy when he confesses his true feelings for Dean. He says he loves him. So finally, after several seasons of the two of them making goo-goo eyes at each other, we know that Cas actually does romantically love Dean. And then he dies. And Dean doesn't react. Dean’s only reaction is that he starts crying, and he's alone, and he's despondent.

Ron: In my reading of the scene, Dean did react. He didn't tell Cas that he loved him. But his reaction when he lost Cas was unlike anything that we had seen Dean do before.

Mon: I couldn't agree more. If people want him to say, ‘I love you’, then, Dean has to accept that he's going to lose Cas forever, and he wasn't in the mood to do that at that time. But he does lose Cas. So, when we go back to the finale, and Bobby tells Dean that Cas has helped create a version of heaven which is actually heaven. Then, Dean makes this characteristic Dean-smirk because he's kind of saying to himself, yes, okay, Cas is alive, Cas is around, so yeah I get to meet him again. That's how it is. We don't get to see Cas in heaven, but no, Cas is there in heaven. I don't know what people are reading into the scene for them to think that Cas didn't make it there.

Ron: It was very, very frustrating.

Mon: I understand the frustration that they would have wanted to see more of the guys in heaven. Dean and Sam meeting these people who are their family, including Cas, Jack, their mom, their dad, I get it. But it was shot in the pandemic. We got a full-fledged season, a beautiful finale, which dragged a little bit, fine, but we got a finale, which does justice to the characters. And it hinted at what more we could expect for their lives in the future.

Ron: One of the things that I've been reading is that Andrew Dabb, who has been the showrunner since Eric Kripke left, he has been working very hard towards resolving some of the storylines from earlier seasons.

Mon: That makes sense. Because we do see a lot of characters returning in latter seasons. I guess that makes sense then.

Ron: Yes, that's what he's been doing. His idea for the finale seems to have been, we started Supernatural with the two brothers, we end it with the two brothers.

Mon: That moment when Dean has had a great ride in baby and she's on the bridge, he's just enjoying this beautiful scenery, and he just knows when his brother's behind him, and the look on Sam's face, and the body language that finally he’s got to be with Dean?

Ron: It's been what we’ve been waiting for, not just in the finale but the entire show, for the two of them to get their ending. The thing is that the two of them have been to heaven before. And it is very different. Heaven under Chuck was you reliving your favorite moment, which as we saw in 12 Monkeys recently, that’s not really anybody's idea of heaven. Tasting sushi for the first time is amazing, but tasting sushi for the first time for the hundredth time? That's not so great.

Mon: Everything loses its charm. With Jack's version of heaven, they're making new experiences for eternity. That's the best kind of happy ending that we could have thought of for the Winchester brothers. That is absolutely why this finale was good. Could the finale have been better? Of course, everything could be better! The whole show could be better! But this is what we got. And in a way, it's so sadly realistic. It's tragic. But they always intended it to be a happy ending.

Ron: Absolutely. And it has to be said, this is what happens to real people. Sam and Dean were able to continue living, despite going to hell, going to heaven, despite going to purgatory. The amount of times that they died and came back.

Mon: It was a joke by the end. It was rightfully a joke because there was no ending for them.

Ron: But we know why, it's because they were Chuck's favorite characters. But that also meant that they were Chuck's favorite marionettes. Freedom meant freedom to die, as well. And as difficult as that was for Sam to process, I think it is also a realistic approach that we probably needed in 2020. That was the best way to do it in 2020. Had it been the two of them growing old together, I think that's what the fans would have wanted, that would have been great to see.

Mon: We don't have to like it but I would just say it is a choice made by the creators. Ron: I think it was the right choice.

Mon: Let us know what you thought about the Supernatural finale and how you would have written, Sam and Dean's ending differently.

Ron: You can find us on Twitter @Stereo_Geeks. Or send us an email [email protected]

Ron: We hope you enjoyed this episode. And see you next week!

Mon: The Stereo Geeks logo was created using Canva. The music for our podcast comes courtesy Audionautix.

[Continuum by Audionautix plays]

Transcription by Otter.ai and Ron.

#supernatural #supernatural finale #flashback #podcast #geeks #stereo geeks

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