#Rhaegar Problematic

[emptyportrait]

aerys’s raw hatred of anyone else who thinks they can hate on rhaegar other than him is unbelievably funny to me. he said only i get to bully my boy, anyone else can fuck off.

[fromtheseventhhell]

It's gonna be so funny when George writes Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship as romantic

[helianthus22]

The resentment that Elia awakens in them says a lot about people's character

can people PLEASE stop fancasting Elia Martell with typical ‘hollywood’ beauties?!?!?! Pretty much everyone in asoiaf agrees that she wasn’t particularly beautiful and that’s FINE. It romanticises her story and idk it just pisses me off a whole lot. 

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

You can dislike Rhaegar x Lyanna, Sandor x Sansa and Jon x Ygritte or find some of the aspects of these pairings "problematic" but that doesn't mean that Martin agrees with you. It's obvious he meant those three pairings to be romantic ones whether you support them or not.

And this isn't a post to tell you that Martin is always right or that since you like his books you have to agree with all his book opinions ( everyone is allowed to have their own views and disagree even with authors whose work they are fan of).

However, within the asoiaf universe these pairings are meant to be romantic ones, and not some negative cautionary tales So, in my opinion you should all accept that this is the reality within the story ( which once again I have to repeat that you are totally allowed not to personally like it) and stop going projecting the negative feelings you have about these pairings on Martin.

[queen-morgana91]

Do you think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were seriously in love?

Yes. It’s literally so plain to see, you have to dig your nails deep in denial to think otherwise. You can read between the lines that GRRM wrote them as lovers.

GRRM has described himself as a romantic and ultimately R+L will be framed romantically (yes yes it has problematic implications when you think about it, but so do many other relationships that the series frames romantically, not least because these books were written with thirty-year-old sexual mores).

He dies with her name on his lips, she with his roses in her hand.

The subversion of “dragon kidnaps girl and valiant lover knight fights a war to save his beloved from her tower” when in truth the “knight” turns out to be a bit of a manwhoring douch who slept with every woman he came across, and the girl loved the dragon he slayed.

The gender subversion of the beautiful Princess with the beautiful voice and the valiant knight who stands up for the weak.

The tale of Bael the Bard, in which a Stark maid associated with winter roses disappears with a singer and comes back with their son. A male relative takes part in his killing and presents it to her as some kind of victory, but it actually breaks her heart, and she dies “by tower”.

Lyanna being heavily asscoicated to Winter Roses which were given to her by non other than Rhaegar Targaryen when he named her his Queen of Love and Beauty. Roses in general are a symbol of love while the blue rose adds a hint of mystique and in attanining the impossible.

Rhaegar, the emo Prince, who was said to have been never truly happy, named the place he stayed at with Lyanna the “Tower of Joy.”

Dany seeing a blue flower growing out of a wall of ice, which filled the air with sweetness in the HotU during the love section of her visions. It's a clear hint of Jon Snow being the love child of Rhaegar and Lyanna who will likely also be Dany’s third and final husband.

Ned confronts Robert about not truly loving Lyanna, because he only ever saw her beauty and not the Iron underneath- it’s implied that the big moment between Rhaegar and Lyanna was meeting her as a Knight who valiantly defended the honor of the weak, not some lovely little maiden spotted at a feast as she would have been to Robert.

The author refers to Rhaegar as a “love struck prince.”

And of course, we have this official new artwork by Justin Sweet, one that GRRM personaly commissioned, which frankly gives me some misguided hope that TWOW is nearly upon us. lol

I love the interplay of light and dark given what we know of these characters: Rhaegar with his sense of grief/doom is fully in the shade of the enormous heart tree while Lyanna is in the half-light half-dark, perhaps representing her own more optimistic and less convoluted worldview. She's exploring, finding balance; he's watching and seeing something he admires that somehow exists in all the twists and inescapable turns of the forest engulfing them.

The third 'person' in the art is the heart tree itself, old/wise/frowning, but also cradling both Lyanna and Rhaegar. They're both connected to it, representing in a sense that their fates are sealed and known. This is a stolen moment they're having (it's a false spring) but despite the simplicity it's still connected to the much larger world around them.

Another point I like is the lack of sigil etc. on their clothing—we know who they are but the interaction is not one of Targaryen to Stark on it's face. [there's also this other art by the same artist which parallels Lyanna and Jon's poses + Rhaegar and Jon's clothes

LAST AND MOST IMPORTANT THOUGH: the blue roses at the bottom that are firmly in the light.

Conclusion: Rhaegar and Lyanna were intended to be your classical tragic love story; think Romeo and Juliet or Tristan and Isolde and whatnot, not Rhaegar kidnapping some random girl to have a Visenya. Although Rhaegar’s desire to have a third child probably pushed him into pursuing his passion in running off with ‘his Lady Lyanna’ too use some of Ser Barristan words here.

[daemon-is-perfectly-unhinged]

Rhaegar: We're trying to make you feel peaceful. Blood, killing, war, those are all non-peaceful things. Isn't there anything else you like?

Jon: Weapons. I like weapons.

Rhaegar: I'm starting to think we have a problematic issue of personal philosophy here.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

There is an unfortunately pervasive aspect of this fandom in that people conflate and replace what is established in canon with what is "true" in fanonland. Or they let their biases run wild and come up with a wide array of baseless ideas.

I tire of this.

Was is when a 22 year old adult started showing interest in a pubescent 14 year old?

This is not out of place in a universe where the author turned Daenerys and Drogo into some love story, twisted as it was, or when he had admitted he was playing around with Sandor and Sansa in the books and that "there was something there," or when he has commissioned Sansan fanart hanging on his wall.

The man does not give two flying fucks about age gaps, even problematic ones by our modern standards.

Was it when he trapped her in Dorne with knights outside ready to kill anyone who tried to help her?

Why would they kill anyone who tried to help her? Lyanna was found in a bed of blood and was ill, so she possibly had puerperal fever after giving birth. There was no way she didn't have a wetnurse to accompany her. Was this wetnurse supposed to have been slain by the Kingsguard for daring to assist Lyanna?

Was it when he joined the war to kill her remaining family and Northerners?

He didn't join the war to specifically kill her family. I find it hard to believe that anyone could forget Rhaegar had stakes of his own, and family of his own. Like, if it wasn't for Rhaegar dying, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon wouldn't have been killed by the Mountain and Amory Lorch.

He didn't deliberately join the war to kill Lyanna's family, he did it so he could win it, return to King's Landing, and depose Aerys. This has been his goal as far back as the tourney at Harrenhal:

His lordship lacked the funds to pay such munificent prizes, they argued; someone else must surely have stood behind him, someone who did not lack for gold but preferred to remain in the shadows whilst allowing the Lord of Harrenhal to claim the glory for hosting this magnificent event. We have no shred of evidence that such a "shadow host" ever existed, but the notion was widely believed at the time and remains so today.

But if indeed there was a shadow, who was he, and why did he choose to keep his role a secret? A dozen names have been put forward over the years, but only one seems truly compelling: Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone.

If this tale be believed, 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a gobetween. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication. (The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring, The World of Ice and Fire)

—

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but...well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." (Jaime I, AFfC)

The major wrench thrown in Rhaegar's plans was Aerys attending said tourney.

Was it when he left her to die in a pool of her own blood?

Rhaegar was dead before then, and even as he was dying he whispered Lyanna's name, as was semi-confirmed in the World of Ice and Fire app.

Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle duelling on horseback in the fording of the river Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips. (Rhaegar Targaryen, AWoIaF app)

She was in his thoughts even while dying.

Was it when she screamed for her brother to save her?

She didn't. And she would never call Ned "Lord Eddard."

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise..."

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark. (Eddard X, AGoT)

This is based on a fever dream, of which George already said that not all dreams are literal. Rose petals certainly were not blowing across a blood-streaked sky, after all, and by Ned's account, the petals in Lyanna's hold were not blue, but crushed and blackened.

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. (Eddard I, AGoT)

Moreover:

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream...and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

[Source]

So we're still, deliberately, in the dark about the events surrounding the tower of joy.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

————

Was it when she begged to be buried with her family in Winterfell?

About this.

It was already a given that Lyanna's body was going to be returned home, as all Starks are traditionally interred in the crypts.

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. (Eddard I, AGoT)

The only exception to this rule has been Brandon the Shipwright, since he was lost at sea. Rickard and Brandon died in King's Landing yet they were returned to Winterfell, so I doubt she'd truly have to beg Ned for that:

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done." (Bran VII, AGoT)

The problem is how frequently this allusion to a promise has been in Ned's chapters. I doubt he would be thinking of it nearly as much if it was solely about Lyanna's bones returning home, so her pleading must narratively carry a deeper meaning. We are talking about a man who has said before that he had lived with lies for fourteen years and how it often troubled him at night.

Jon was fourteen at the start of the series.

Please direct me to the "love story"

Regarding the possible nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, I believe this quote of George's implies it was indeed a romance, in his own preferred telling of one:

It’s interesting, to get back to this issue of romance that you raised earlier. When I was in Spain a few years ago, I had dinner with a woman — a Spanish academic — and a big fan of both science fiction and romance, and she had read a lot of my stuff because people said I was a very romantic writer. And she sort of launched at me and said, “What are you talking about?! You are not a romantic writer, you know. Nobody ever lives happily ever after in your books!” I was defending it, saying, “Well, but that’s a different tradition of romance. I don’t — I’m a romantic writer in the tradition of The Great Gatsby and Romeo and Juliet, and, you know, the Beauty and the Beast. These things don’t necessarily have happy endings, but aren’t the most powerful romances the unfulfilled romances — the romances where people go their separate ways, but they’ll always have Paris, like in Casablanca, one of the films I showed here. You know, they go separate at the end, but they’ll always have Paris.” And she basically said, “No, you’re wrong. They have to be happily ever after together for it to be romance, otherwise it’s just sad.”

[Source: 03:19]

Rhaegar and Lyanna's story is analogous to the tale of Bael the Bard and the Stark maiden; there was a reason why this tale of the blue winter rose was told to Jon specifically. Like the Stark maiden in the story, Lyanna loved Rhaegar so much that she bore him a son.

Bael and the Stark maiden's tale was not a happily ever after, either; both lovers died in the end. But their union did produce a child.

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

The conflict started because of Rhaegar, not Brandon. He was stupid, but he just wanted to save his sister from a dishonorable life like that of a lover, especially in Westeros, where that kind of life is not well-regarded. So I don't blame Brandon for wanting a better life for his sister.

Lyanna was a child when Rhaegar turned her into his incubator until Ned knows that Lyanna was a child

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more

Eddard I Game of thrones

I know Robert is a horrible person, but if we are going to criticize Robert for messing with 15-year-old girls, we should also criticize Rhaegar, who did the same thing, only worse because he caused the death of many people.

Nowhere is it confirmed that they were in love, the author has not come out to confirm it, there are only conjectures of some people like his crazy sister or the hypocrite loyal to the Targaryens like Barristan, his arc can be reduced to that of Stannis obsessed with a prophecy, who believes himself to be the chosen one and who would do anything to do things for the kingdom regardless of the price or hurting other people.

Jesus, how can people be so dumb and blind?

The whole series has the theme of love vs duty, and no, duty is not the right answer.

Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love, George himself describes Rhaegar as a love-struck prince.

Lyanna was an adult by Westerosi standards, Ned calls her a child because he was her big brother, not because she was actually one.

And Rhaegar did not use Lyanna as an incubator, that's a fanon assumption for people who can't stand to read problematic fiction as it's written.

It wasn't Rhaegar who started the war, it was Aerys, and honestly Brandon for being kind of an idiot, I mean who the fuck rides for weeks in the same state of anger and then thinks is a good idea to demand the head of the heir of a mad king?

[mysticalprincesskitten]

I'm an ASOIAF fan reading the series for the third time at age 28. Here are my thoughts and opinions 390 pages into AGOT:

Dany's chapters are so uncomfortable in AGOT. Her entire relationship with Drogo is chilling, and if I'm being honest, the constant child p0rn and problematic comments made by GRRM about Daenerys in real life (calling her hot, saying he'd love to go out to dinner with her as she's a "very beautiful woman") make me think the author is sexually attracted to Daenerys. It's disgusting. She's a 13 year old at the beginning of the story, and 16 at the end of ADWD. Nothing about her and Drogo is a seduction. It is child p0rn.

I feel so sorry for Dany. Unlike the Starklings, she's never known love or happiness or safety or family, except for the House with Red Door. Viserys is such an abusive asswipe.

I also really relate to Dany as someone who's grown up in an abusive environment. Her finding strength within herself as the blood of the dragon is empowering af.

Last Dany point: After Viserys rejects her gifts like the piece of crap he is, Dany curls up with Rhaegal's egg and feels baby Rhaego in her belly reach out to the dragon egg, "brother to brother." Idk, it's kind of adorable. Rhaego and Rhaegal, both named after Rhaegar.

Okay, back to Westeros.

Robert Baratheon is a terrible king and a terrible person. I can see why such a percentage of the male ASOIAF fandom worship him.

Ah, Ned. You're kindness in a world of cruelty.

Bran and Dancer parallel Dany and her silver nicely.

Jon Snow is Lyanna's son through and through, and we never saw him on the show. Idk who Kit Harington was playing but it wasn't Jon Snow from ASOIAF.

Still groan every time I'm at a Catelyn chapter.

[catofoldstones]

The thing is I probably wouldn't hate Rhaegar as much as I do if he wasn't glorified by the fandom and to a lesser extent in the canon too. How do you expect me to read Elia being raped and killed, Aegon's skull being crushed and Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed only to be stabbed 50 times and not blame the man who was off galivanting with a teenage girl in his wife's home while abandoning his wife and children to his lunatic racist father!? In a war HE started!! The people responsible for their deaths were Gregor, Amory Lorch, Tywin, Aerys, and Robert yes but their protection was Rhaegar's responsibility. The very existence of Elia and her children ensures Rhaegar/Lyanna can never be anything positive, whether it was consensual or not. Because whatever his dynamic with Lyanna, his treatment of his wife and children stays the same. There is no need for confirmation that Lyanna was a victim to hate him, he is a piece of shit in either cases. [Not to mention here, his treatment of Lyanna is also highly problematic even if we go by it being consensual].

The very existence of Elia and her children ensures Rhaegar/Lyanna can never be anything positive, whether it was consensual or not. Because whatever his dynamic with Lyanna, his treatment of his wife and children stays the same.

YEP!

The problem with this fandom is that they will always find a woman to blame for a man’s mistakes. This becomes “Rhaegar was not wrong 🥺 why did Elia expect him to act like her husband when he was her husband. the marriage was arranged!!!🥺” as if till then no marriages had been arranged amongst Westerosi noblefolk with the expectation that the obligations and rights and duties that come with the marriage will be honoured by the both parties. Nope. That’s just not Westeros at all.

The moment you say Rhaegar was obligated to protect his wife and children because that’s his duty as a lord husband and lord father, people will jump on you claiming that you’re upholding these patriarchal, regressive standards. Don’t you know Elia should’ve girlbossed and picked up a sword and killed the Mountain to give the reader independent girl satisfaction? How dare she be a literary vehicle to show the systemic disenfranchisement of women, even women who come from powerful backgrounds, in a feudal society and draw attention to the fact that it it’s still happening to women all around the world. How dare she not be a girlboss wet dream to satisfy our own fixed ideas and to assuage our insecurities?

And then they do try and turn her into this girlboss who was a-okay with her husband going out and getting himself a girl to become a broodmare to get another child on because “that gives Elia agency”, which is so fucking racist and straight up misogynistic towards both Elia and Lyanna, i cannot even begin to tell you. Whatever Rhaegar’s dynamic was with Lyanna, whether he married her or not, can never be consensual because Lyanna was an impressionable 14 year old child who wanted some agency and reprieve from a suffocating, oppressive society and Rhaegar was an adult, married man with two children and a kingdom to take care of who kidnapped the said child by promising her said agency. What more words do I have to use now to that Rhaegar is unequivocally at fault here. He’s the executor of his children’s death, his wife’s rape and murder, the plunging of a kingdom into war, and his family’s tragedy for a generation at least. Rhaegar is. at. fault.

I genuinely don’t know how people take the blame from a man and throw it at the women he wronged. Oh wait, I do. It’s unchecked misogyny 🙄

[blakeswritingimagines]

Dating Yandere Rhaegar Targaryen would include:

As a yandere, he is deeply obsessive and possessive over the object of his affections. He will do whatever it takes to ensure that you remain by his side, even if it means resorting to violent and dangerous behaviors. He will also be highly territorial towards other potential suitors and will do all in his power to ensure that he remains the top priority in his beloved's life. However, he is also prone to fits of insecurity and jealousy, and any notion of rejection or betrayal can quickly send him into a frantic spiral.

He would be an obsessive yandere who would do anything in the name of love. He would constantly follow you and do anything to protect you. He would be possessive and jealous and would not like you to spend time with anyone else. He would always try to find opportunities to be with you and would not hesitate to eliminate any threats to your relationship.

He's extremely possessive, clingy, and obsessive, and he would do anything for his loved one, including killing/harming anyone who gets in the way or hurts you.

To be blunt, he's fairly possessive of the ones he's closest to, though he keeps those feelings bottled up as he's never been good at expressing himself. On the outside, others would probably describe him as reserved and withdrawn. When he falls in love, though, those feelings of possessiveness quickly consume him, turning into jealousy if the person he adores spends time with others. He wants to keep you all for himself and will go to great lengths to ensure that happens.

As a yandere, he is also fiercely protective of his beloved and will defend you with every fiber of his being. He may not always be a perfect lover, but he will always have your best interests at heart. He will also be highly affectionate towards you, showering you with love and attention, and always doing his best to keep you happy. However, he has also been known to be too overly possessive at times, to the point where he may try to control your actions and to the point where it becomes problematic.

Beyond the possessiveness and obsessive tendencies, he is also likely to be quite emotionally volatile as a yandere. He may be prone to bouts of jealousy, rage, and paranoia, and his emotions can be intense and unpredictable. He also has a tendency to be manipulative, attempting to coerce his beloved into conforming to his desires. He may also become overly dependent on the object of his affections, to the point where he is unable to function without you, and may lash out or break down when faced with separation.

In addition to the tendencies already mentioned, he also experiences drastic mood swings and suffers from an intense fear of abandonment or rejection. He finds himself acting in manipulative ways in order to keep his beloved in his clutches. Furthermore, he also experiences frequent fantasies or thoughts of heavy violence directed towards anyone who is perceived as threatening or hindering his relationship. Overall, he is highly prone to obsessive, controlling, and abusive behaviors in the name of love.

Yandere tendencies can also include the desire to control and manipulate you, in order to ensure your loyalty and devotion. He may take steps to isolate you from others and to keep you under his close watch. This can include stalking, coercion, and even physical restraints if necessary. In more severe cases, yandere behavior can extend to bodily harm or even murder to eliminate perceived threats or obstacles that stand in the way of his desired relationship.

As a yandere, he is capable of great acts of violence and obsession in pursuit of his desires. However, he is also capable of great acts of love and devotion to you. His actions may seem extreme and irrational to outsiders, but they're all taken from a place of deep love and affection. When he is with you, he is capable of great tenderness and compassion. He will shower you with love and attention and defend you fiercely against any perceived threats or dangers. He will do anything for the object of his affection.

Yandere behavior often stems from a profound sense of loneliness and abandonment. As such, he may be overly clingy and heavily emotionally dependent toward you, seeking constant reassurance and affection. He may also struggle to understand social or romantic norms, and his behavior may appear strange or off-putting to others. Additionally, yandere tendencies can be fueled by obsessive thoughts and delusional beliefs, leading to an unhealthy and unsustainable level of attachment.

Other yandere behaviors can include possessive language and actions, such as calling you "my everything" and insisting you belong only to him. He may also engage in extreme or obsessive behaviors to display his love and dedication, such as showering you with gifts, writing long and passionate letters, or even offering to do your chores and other tasks for you when really forcing it onto someone else. He may also become highly emotional and possessive over seemingly small things, like who you are spending time with or what you are doing when he's not around.

Extreme yandere tendencies may also manifest as obsessive and delusional thoughts and beliefs, particularly when it comes to the relationship with his beloved. He may believe that he is the only one who truly understands or deserves you and becomes suspicious or even jealous of any other individuals who show interest or attention towards you. This could lead to behaviors ranging from incessant calls or texts to displays of hostility or aggression. In extreme cases, it may even escalate to stalking and harassment of the target and other individuals whom he perceives as threats.

Along with the possessiveness and jealousy associated with yandere tendencies, he exhibits obsessive behaviors such as spending long periods of time stalking or following the object of his affections, or obsessing over every little detail of your lives. It is also common for yanderes to create an idealized version of their beloved in their minds and to become emotionally attached to this fantasy version instead of the actual person. This can lead to extreme rage, denial, or delusion if reality fails to meet these unrealistic expectations.

Additionally, yandere's can possess a level of emotional intensity and impulsivity that far outpaces the average individual. He may experience emotional outbursts and sudden changes in mood, ranging from intense euphoria and affection to extreme frustration and rage. These outbursts may be directed towards you, or towards anyone or anything else that might hinder or challenge the relationship. It is also common for yandere's to struggle with feelings of guilt or remorse following these bouts of intense emotion, as he may realize that his behavior has crossed the line and gone too far.

He is capable of genuine affection and love for the object of his affection. In fact, one of the most defining features of his is that he's seemingly unhinged behavior is ultimately motivated by a deep-seated fear of losing you to whom he may be deeply attached. He will feel intense love and admiration for his beloved and will be driven to ensure your safety, protection, and happiness.

As a yandere, having children with his beloved would be a dream come true. He'd have the opportunity to create a miniature version of you, who is both genetically and emotionally bound to him. He would be constantly striving to ensure that they were healthy, happy, and successful, and would expect you to share this vision. However, at the same time, he may struggle with feelings of jealousy and possessiveness, especially if the children were to develop independence or develop relationships outside of the family unit.

However, the idea of you rejecting the idea of having children with him would be devastating. He would perceive this as a rejection of not only his love and affection but also as a rejection of the future that he had envisioned for you together. He may become frustrated and angry and may resort to desperate and manipulative measures in an attempt to change your mind. However, if you ultimately remained resistant to his efforts, he may eventually become resigned and bitter, as he would struggle to accept the loss of such an essential part of his life's plan.

The idea of marriage would be a very important step in his relationship with you. It would show to both himself and the outside world just how serious you are about your commitment to each other. He would expect the marriage to be an extremely romantic and lavish large affair, which he would plan with precision and care. After the ceremony, he would expect to spend every moment of your lives together, with no room for any other relationships or outside interference.

He would likely face opposition from people in both his beloved's life and his own. Family members, friends, and even romantic rivals for your attention may all try to convince him to change his obsessive and possessiveness behavior. They might try to convince him that he should give you more space and freedom or to try to reason with him using logic. However, the sheer magnitude of his love and devotion would make it difficult for him to listen to any outside advice, and he may feel that he knows what is best for you and your relationship.

He would likely be deeply protective and defensive of you if someone were rude or disrespectful towards you. He may even feel a sense of ownership over you, and this could make it difficult for him to accept any challenges to your autonomy or happiness. If someone were to act in a way that he perceives as a threat to you, he would likely be extremely hostile and aggressive, and he even resorts to physical violence to defend you.

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

Something has been bugging me lately; why is it that so much of the ASOIAF fandom hates romance? Like, this is a problem I've noticed and it's honestly kind of weird. To be sure, George's view on what is romantic is, uh, dubious at best, but to outright be so against it the way I've seen some people be against it is quite bizarre, to say the least.

Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course there's no romance there! Rhaegar clearly was just using Lyanna as a baby factory to produce a super prophecy child because that's all there is to his character!

Jon and Daenerys? They won't be getting together like that dumb show! And if they are, it will be purely a political marriage! No lovey dovey stuff there!. After all Dany likes "bad boys" (which somehow translates to "evil men") so why would she like a strong, assertive man like Jon? And why would Jon like her? Not like he likes strong fiery tempered women!

Those are the two biggest examples but there is more. Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen are more ambiguous since they are historical characters, but a lot of people are convinced it was 100% unrequited love.

I've even seen fans complain about the line from Barristan where he thinks about how Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry over the affections of Shiera Seastar caused the Blackfyre Rebellions. Like sure it wasn't the only reason, but to think that jealousy and romance didn't have an effect on those rebellions is a bit weird.

Yes, I am aware these are some problematic pairings, not least of which because most of these are pretty incestuous. However, the complaints about these romances do not stem from a moral quandary. In the case of R+L, you see people calling Rhaegar a groomer and pedophile (see my post on him on my full thoughts there), but the majority of it is simply "well it's stupid because they told no one and caused a whole war, the selfish brats" (bonus points if someone specifically targets Lyanna).

Okay, setting aside the fact that, like with the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion was caused by far more factors than their elopement, why does making it an abduction Rhaegar did simply for a magic messiah baby make it a better story than the fact these two were in love and desperate to escape situations they felt trapped in, leading to shortsighted decisions that had an unexpected affect on many people?

With Jon and Dany, the backlash is "but that's so cliche! George wouldn't do something as cliche as two of the biggest protagonists falling in love." As if George doesn't constantly engage with cliche storybeats as often or even more than he subverts them. Even when the evidence for the two getting together is literally so overwhelming that you'd need to be willfully ignorant to ignore the foreshadowing (plus the fact George literally said that their union is "the point of the series").

And again, I must ask; why is Jon and Dany marrying to secure a political alliance without any real love between them a better story than an epic, doomed romance between two people who have gone through such similar struggles and have such similar personalities? What does R+L=J even exist for if they are just a couple of convenience using each other?

I'm not saying you have to love and ship all these people together. Because we sometimes forget our little fandom bubble, most people are not okay with even fictional incest ships. That's okay. Sometimes it's not even incest ships, but again, that's okay! We are all different and have our preferences! Some might not even care much for romance.

But the way a lot of this is criticized doesn't read like that. It's always focusing on the negative aspects. Especially with Dany's love interests. I'm not a fan of Daario and Dany, personally, but it is a bit uncomfortable how she is targeted so heavily for thinking and getting horny about him. Like... let a girl be horny and infatuated? Lol, I don't know!

With Rhaegar and Lyanna, Prince Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, the "problem" is that their disregard for political betrothals and following their hearts makes them stupid monsters who are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. That is absolutely not the way we should take these romances.

These doomed, tragic affairs aren't about how people are selfish. It's about the power of love. The way love makes people act rashly. The way love consumes someones thoughts and feelings. Love is powerful, it is transformative, transcending. That is the point. Even in spite of the death and chaos occurring around it, the love these people have for each other is something that cannot be broken.

I feel like the fandom has taken the wrong approach to this series tone and themes. I'm not George's biggest personal fan, to be quite honest, but he is a self described romantic. Turning Rhaegar from a lovestruck prince to a selfish crazed maniac is not romantic. Turning romance or potential romance into cold political maneuvers is not romantic.

The point of all this is that, yes, the world is dark. It's scary, it's cruel, unforgiving, and cold. But in that darkness, there are pockets of light that shine and make you feel safe, and warm, and happy. It makes you forget all the troubles around you. That light, that warmth, that love, is worth fighting for, even if it's all that is left, even if it doesn't last.

I am of course, slightly biased in my assessment, lmao. You could say that me, being a bisexual polyamorous transfemme, is maybe a bit of a big fan of romance and love! Yet, it still saddens me that people try to keep romances from just being romances, and try to make the story and world more bleak as a result. We already have Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, Euron, Randyll Tarly. We have people who use love against others for their own gain or outright reject it violently. We don't need more of that.

[horizon-verizon]

Daemyra is a victim of George RR Martin's perversion for pubescent girls and adult men, just like Dany/Drogo.

He didn't have to write 31 year old Daemon taking 14 year old Rhaenyra to a brothel the same way he didn't have to make Dany the 13 year old child bride of 30 year old Drogo.

George has serious issues, it would be wrong of us to ignore them.

*EDITED POST* (6/25/24)

Anon talks abt this post.

True that GRRM's often a creep with some relationships. I'm not saying that that this isn't a real problem in real life (30 yr olds are with teens) or that this wouldn't give more room to people can take as justification of real events of grooming.

I'm saying it's not exactly 1-1 with real life conditions and thus that is not THE story being told, as...arguably flawed as GRRM makes that so.

So to quote la-pheacienne:

I'm ok if you adress this as a meta commentary. What I mean by a meta commentary here is a commentary on the choices of the author himself and whether these choices are wise/unwise, or if there is a pattern that should be adressed. All of this can be discussed in a meta commentary. Dead Ladies Club was one for example, in a different subject though. Once you're in universe though, everything you included in your meta commentary no longer applies. You need to throw it out of the window. Now you're engaging with the story as it is, which means that you accept the story as it is. You may not like the fact that Daemon is older than Rhaenyra and her oncle, but you need to accept the fact that in universe, their relationship was a normal, consensual relationship between two people who loved eachother. If you have a problem with that, you can either 1) NOT engage in the story, or 2) bitch about the author, but nothing you can do will ever change the story itself. 1. Example A : "God that GRRM is SO creepy with all this incest and age differences in every single couple he creates, enough" (meta commentary, valid). Example B : "Daemon is SUCH a problematic character driven by toxic masculinity and his relationship with Rhaenyra is deeply toxic, unhealthy and imbalanced" (distortion of the story, invalid). 2. Example A : "It was really unnecessary to present a 15 yo girl being kidnapped by a 20something married man with kids as this romantic tragic love story, I don't like it" (meta commentary, valid) Example B :"Rhaegar was a monster who groomed Lyanna, probably raped her, imprisoned her in a tower and let her die, it's a disgusting relationship" (distortion of the story, invalid) In both these scenarios, the common denominator is the complete alteration of the story the author wanted to tell.

And the story intended was basically this (by rhaenin-time, not me):

Basically, investigate the situation at hand and then weigh what the story is vs what it should be and how/why. These are two different things. Doesn't mean that you have to endorse the age gap itself or like Daemyra, no one asked for people to like this ship. That's not important to me.

[diamondperfumes]

The assertions that Dany will "succumb" to her family's allegedly "evil legacy" or the "taint" in her blood require pathologizing her for being an abuse victim borne of rape and incest, buying into bioessentialist "genetics is destiny" argument, and decontextualizing most of the passages from her book arc. This post, with a song juxtaposed with out-of-context quotes from Dany's chapters, is an excellent example.

"Every child knows the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness." The only "mad" Targaryens were Rhaegel, Aerion, Aerys II, and Viserys III. If you want to stretch it, you can include Baelor, though he was more pious and fanatic than mad. Maegor was cruel but lucid. Rhaegar was not mad, despite being Aerys II's son. And the narrative has distanced Dany from Aerys II several times, because one of ASOIAF's central theses is not "you are your father's child," but "you can overcome your father."

"She could not look behind her, must not look behind her" is not Dany "refusing to look at her family's history." This is taken from her fever dreams in AGOT Dany IX, and what she can't look back at is an icy breath that would cause her a "death worse than death, howling forever alone in the darkness." It's the first time Dany sees the Others in her dreams, and she is the only other character in AGOT to dream of them, the other character being Bran.

"I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice." This is Dany feeling guilty for crucifying 163 slavers. How is that a sign of madness or refusal to confront her family legacy? It's actually a sign that Dany has empathy even for the worst of humanity, even for her enemies. Also, crucifying slavers isn't evil. It's odd that the same fandom that calls Dany a slaver, slave trader, slave profiteer, and slavery enabler, also calls her a tyrant or mad for crucifying slavers. What is she supposed to do with slavers? What is the "proper" way to handle them?

The mother of monsters passage is more proof that Dany is introspective and self-critical. In children's media, shounen anime, and Marvel movies, a villain may unironically call themselves a monster, but in more complicated, nuanced, adult literature, characters who call themselves monsters usually aren't bad people. They're the self-deprecating, humble, and thoughtful characters who are reflecting on their flaws and mistakes. Again, if Dany is someone who refuses to think about the dark side of her family, she would not agonize over the consequences of using her power. Monstrosity is associated with being stigmatized, ostracized, and alienated by hegemonic forces in society, and those characters who identify with monstrosity often have something to reveal about the violence of the status quo and the normalization of oppression.

George is deconstructing the coin quote, not reinforcing it. Madness/greatness, ice/fire, east/west, north/south, sun/moon, pain/pleasure, love/hate, are all dichotomies in the novel that George sets out to show can unite in some way. As I said, most Targaryens were not "mad," and I find it odd that for a fandom as progressive as it frames itself to be, the ableist stereotyping of "foreign otherized race from the East is genetically predisposed toward madness" isn't something fans problematize more.

Dany longing for the house with the red door and wanting to rest, laugh, plant trees and see them grow, are also seen as signs of madness because of her statelessness and homelessness. If a teenage girl has been raped and abused, and is herself a product of rape and abuse, and comes from an exotic Eastern family, then apparently her longing for home is actually a bomb waiting to detonate inside her, because she's unfit to belong anywhere. It's shocking that this mentality is seen as media literate or subversive.

"Dragons plant no trees" has already been disproven by Dany's arc itself. Dany reclaims fire and blood by the end of ADWD because she realizes the peace in Meereen is false (which it is). Jon Snow goes from wanting to hire glassblowing apprentices to plant crops in greenhouses to grow food, to abandoning his vows and declaring war to save his sister, and then dies. Why is that not seen as a sign of "succumbing to madness?" The acts are narratively paralleled. Perhaps––and this may be crazy, but stay with me––the thesis of FeastDance is that you cannot grow, build, and heal a nation in soil watered with blood. No such rebuilding or regrowing is possible unless and until real change occurs, and for real change to happen, the corrupt old guard cannot stay alive.

Certainly TWOW will be a darker book for every viewpoint character, but it's interesting to see how a combination of pathologizing Dany for her gender, ethnicity, genes/biology, trauma, and stateless/rootless/homeless status as an exile/diaspora, with decontextualizing her chapters, quotes, and passages, and an overall misunderstanding of the themes of ASOIAF, to single Dany out as a "dark" character who won't be able to "outrun" her "negative family history."

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I'm surprised how only Rhaegar is acknowledge as "pedo" for his relationship with Lyanna in the fandom, but no one cares or mentions that Oberyn Martell sleep with a 16 year old (and beat Obara's mother), Cersei sleep with Lancel, also a kid, Renly had a relationship with Loras, another kid, and Robert impregnated a 14 year old. Robert also was obsessed with the "teeneger Lyanna" 20 years after her death. And there are many other examples in the series. Rape, cheating and relationships with kids.

Yet, these are popular characters in the fandom. I'm not sure why only Rhaegar and Lyanna are problematic. Should people be more consistent?

Welcome to asoiaf fandom, which should be renamed the double standard fandom!

If people truly had a problem with the age gap between Rhaegar and Lyanna, they would also apply the same standards to other asoiaf adults who have or had relationships with teenagers. But they don't. Because the don't care as much for the age gap or the cheating as much as proving that Rhaegar and Targaryens as a whole are the vilest people ever, while Starks (Lyanna's family) and Martells (Elia's family) are the purest snowflakes who never did anything wrong .

I feel the need to clarify here that I totally understand fans who feel uncomfortable with Rhaegar x Lyanna and other relationships with similar age gap. And I respect it if they don't feel comfortable talking about these kind of pairings.

However, if any fan claims that ships like Rhaegar x Lyanna are problematic within the story due to the age gap, they are totally missing the author's intentions. Unlike them, Martin doesn't find pairings with big age gaps problematic and in Rhaelya's case he even finds them romantic.

[g0lightly]

The "most problematic maiden at the joust" meme going around reminded me that Sansa (as Alayne) being the most problematic maiden at her own wedding tourney is the inciting incident for my Brienne/Sansa longfic, the Hounds of Harrenhal. TLDR, she cucks Harry the Heir so badly when she first sees Brienne that it makes Rhaegar's Tourney at Harrenhal stunt look cute.

It kicks off in 302 AC and is a slight AU in the sense that Sansa is now aged up to be Robb's twin and the rest of the Starklings have had their birth years moved up as well (thanks, scrapped five year gap). Otherwise, it's canon compliant.