#I've seen ppl read kirby's runs as far more divine but i just rlly cant

[autisticcassandracain]

so are the new gods, gods?. If they are what are there gods of (sorry im just interested sorry)

'Are the New Gods gods?'

[GIF: meme of a man bobbing his head back and forth with an unsure expression.]

The lore for the New Gods is set out in the opening of the first issue of The New Gods (1971). There came a time the gods died. There have been three worlds prior to ours, the last had the gods destroy themselves in a great war. These gods are usually implied to be the Norse Gods, which would make the war Ragnarok. The New Gods of Apokolips and New Genesis are their successors. So yes, in the literal sense, the New Gods are gods.

In terms of actual portrayal, it gets a little more complex. In the original Jack Kirby Fourth World trilogy, most of the New Gods barely felt like gods. Most were portrayed as people with god-level powers, but there was never any real debate around worship, immortality and what can kill them, and little debate about specific aspects of reality they were the god of. You see this probably most obviously in first issue of the Forever People, where Superman immediately identifies himself with the Forever People and tries to reach Supertown (i.e. New Genesis) because he believes himself to belong there. That was possible because the way the Forever People and most of the other New Gods are portrayed in Kirby's original runs is basically the same as Superman often is; a god among mortals, but a person nonetheless. I wouldn't say the New Gods are treated as mortal, per se, but their portrayal is definitely closer to Superman than, say, the Olympian Gods in Perez's Wonder Woman run.

That said, there were exceptions. The Black Racer specifically is very obviously inhuman in a way the rest of the New Gods aren't. This is ironic, because he is also the only one that actually has a mortal base. The Black Racer is a mortal named Willie Walker, but more importantly, he is Death. The spirit of the Black Racer, inhabits Willie Walker, but I'd call him the most 'traditional' god in the Fourth World saga. He has a specific realm (Death) and only really appears as an omen of it. He is not of either New Genesis or Apokolips and is neutral in the conflict because his task is to bring death. The other New Gods are afraid of him, and can be killed by him. It is unclear to me if he's the only thing that can kill them, because again the topic is not discussed in-depth to my memory, but whenever a New God dies or is set to die, The Black Racer appears. So yeah. He's definitely a god in the traditional sense.

I'd also say that while the New Gods themselves aren't typically really treated as gods the same way, say, the Olympian Gods are, the conflict between Apokolips and New Genesis itself does tend to carry greater importance than 'just some war'. The fact that the previous world was ripped apart by war hangs over the entire conflict. The conflict does feel like something more than Tameran and the Gordgonians fighting each other, or some other extraterrestrial war.

Personally, in Kirby's runs, I'd say the New Gods, as a whole, are treated in a godly, superhuman fashion, but individually, they're more akin to men than gods. But this is ultimately personal interpretation; it's not clear-cut.

Moving away from Jack Kirby, there have been a variety of different interpretations on the New Gods' godhood. A lot of writers have taken to interpreting the godhood in a more traditional sense. This can range from ultimately minor deviations from the tone set by Jack Kirby (the Orion solo mostly framing the new gods the same way, with the latter half taking the godhood more literal, culminating in the 'gods are not dependent on their worshippers' speech) to very, very major ones (Mister Miracle v3 and its incredibly literal take on coming into godly powers and rejecting them, or Jack Kirby's The Fourth World by John Byrne adding clear discussions of immortality and godhood). How 'godly' the New Gods are depends heavily on the writer.

''What are the New Gods the gods of?" in particular is really not as easy to answer as you'd think. Some New Gods have clear and obvious connections to certain concepts; Lightray and light, Orion and battle, Metron and knowledge, Scott Free and freedom/escape. Even so, saying that those concepts are what they're the gods of is not nearly as uncontroversial as you'd think. It's not like the Black Racer, who is obviously, clearly, textually established as Death, and arguing he's not or something else as well would really take some effort.

For example, Orion has been referred to as the god of battle/war, yes, but there's also a very solid argument to be made for him as the god of retribution (so solid it's a piece of canon dialogue, "(...) Tonight, I will become the god of retribution", from the Orion solo). For a different example, Scott Free is often referred to as the god of freedom and escape, but I don't think he's ever been explicitly labelled as such in the comics, not even in the comics that heavily play up his godhood. I could be forgetting it, obviously, but the fact that I can't think of a single instance in which he is specifically referred to as the god of freedom and escape means that if it's happened, it's certainly not common. At the same time, if he has to be the god of something, freedom/escape are really the only candidates.

This isn't even getting into the New Gods with less clear-cut connections. What is Highfather the New God of? He began as Izaya, and reinvented himself radically; would his realm have switched as well? What was Izaya the god of? Darkseid is evil, but is he really the God of Evil? He's not the first ruler of Apokolips; its evil existed before him, and I'm sure it will exist afterwards. But what else would he be the god of? Fascism? What is Barda the New God of? She is most strongly connected to battle, but it's not her destiny the way it is for Orion, who's got that realm covered, anyway. And like. Good luck figuring out wtf the Forever People are the gods of. Infinity Man? Do they have separate godly connections, or are they one?

Those are just some examples of the many, many New Gods that don't have directly obvious realms. You can say Lightray is the God of Light and have solid canon backing, but Highfather/Izaya's role is in leading New Genesis, but calling him the God of New Genesis would be ridiculous. And the role of leader is one that is able to be passed on. Darkseid, same thing, different planet. There's lots of New Gods that really can't cleanly be assigned to some worldly aspect to be the god of.

Ultimately, the extent of the New Gods' divinity depends heavily on the comic you're reading and personal interpretation. Personally, I prefer to see the New Gods less as a bunch of seperate literal gods that together make up a specific pantheon, and more a collective force responsible for the balance and peace of the world. I believe that this interpretation is true to Kirby's original runs, while also providing room for some more spicy interpretations of godhood if desired. I think that the more literal interpretations of godhood, especially the ones that attempt to assign the New Gods 1:1 realms, are some of the more boring, OOC, and tonally incongruent takes on Kirby's original lore. This goes double for people who try to frame characters like Scott Free, who lives a very mortal lifestyle, as literal gods; 'Scott Free accepts his godhood/lets delve into Scott Free as a god' is an arc that has literally never been done well, and I doubt it ever will be. It works better for characters like Orion, who are already deeply removed from traditional mortal stories, but even then, it tends to just feel weird to me.

So, TLDR: 'Are the New Gods gods?' Well, yes, but actually no.