#I've done more than three years of grad school and I'm a working adult now

[shadowed-yet-vibrant]

An act of kindness I'll never forget - I was in elementary school, and both a classmate and I were reading the same book series. We were both bullied at recess, so we would stay inside and read in the library instead (with one or two other students). The elementary school librarian knew us both well, and she told us that she was buying a copy of the new book from the series for the library. She promised us both it would be ready for check out on release day.

My classmate and I talked for WEEKS about running to the library on lunch break (against the rules!) to get the book first. The day comes, we both tear out of the classroom and bolt for the library, and up to the desk.

Our librarian is there, waiting for us at the desk, smiling. We ask her who made it to the desk first (I think he did, honestly) - who gets to check out the book first, and who gets it second? We're out of breath, but she just laughs...

She pulls two copies of the book from underneath the desk.

[scripttorture]

CULT WIP Hi there~! So I'm working on a cult WIP and I know a common way to control people in a cult is sleep deprivation. I've looked through your sleep related tags and the cult one, but right now I'm wondering about the long con of sleep deprivation. My idea is that to keep people controlled they get less sleep than they should (your posts have made me up it from three hours per night to five per night) and the higher ups in the cult are allowed the full amount of sleep they need; (1/2)

CULT WIP (2/3) that way they operate better than others. I've jotted down a bunch of effects you've brought up but here's the thing. What if that sleep deprivation lasts forever? Like it's just a normal part of life once you hit adulthood? (I don't think kids could withstand it so I figured just not to do it). I know the Heaven's Gate cult used a lot of sleep deprivation and they lasted for ~three years so there must be some way to/balance to keep people functional, I just can't think of how.CULT WIP (3/3) Not actually part of the question but I just wanted to say THANK YOU for this blog!! It's fascinating, especially for me since I'm in grad school to be a therapist so that aspect is really interesting, and you put an incredible amount of work into all this. ~Jessica

Thankyou, it’s always nice to hear I’ve been helpful. :)

I’mgoing to go into this one with the caveat that so far as I know, noone has done this experiment. There isn’t a studied group of peoplewho have been restricted (or restricted themselves) to five hours ofsleep a night every day for their entire adult life. There are peoplewho’ve done this for a number of years and people who do this 5-6nights a week and then sleep more on the weekend for decades at atime. Now all three situations are bad for someone, but a thoroughstatistical analysis on a decent sample size might show differencesbetween them.

Sopart of this is what we know happens to the first two groups and partof it is extrapolating based on that.

Thefirst thing we knowhappens (based on the two studied groups) is a shorter, unhealthierlife.

Ihesitate to put a figure on how much shorter because it seems to varyquite a bit between individuals and I don’t know of any statisticalstudies that have put a number on it. But I think you can safely takeat least ten years off every character’s life expectancy based onthis alone.

Therates of a lotof different diseases and conditions increase. Cancer rates rise, formultiple forms of cancer. Rates of strokes and heart attacks rise.Dementia rates rise.

Nowall of those conditions are usually diseases of age. You canhave a heart attack or a cancer diagnosis as a young person, but thechances of it happening are much more likely after you hit about40-50.Lack of sleep doesn’t seem to effect the age these conditionsmanifest. It doeseffect the chances of them happening in vulnerable ages though.

Essentiallyif you take a group of 40-50 year old non-cultists from your valleysetting (I hope you don’t mind me looking at your blog? Lovelypictures by the way) less of them will have or have had cancer,strokes, heart attacks and early signs of dementia. As the populationages further the gap will become starker. Less of the cultists willsurvive to their 70-80s and those that do will be less healthy thenthe non-cultists.

Diabetesrates also increase with lack of sleep. This doesn’t appear to beage related. It is however unclear whether it’s because of theeffect lack of sleep has on the immune system or because of theeffect it has on our appetites. People who sleep less eat more andtheir bodies drive them towards more high fat and high sugar foods.

Idon’t understand the link between weight and diabetes very well, soI’m not going to talk about it in any depth. The general point I’mdriving at is that if your cult tightly controls diet that mightcounteract the rise in predisposition to diabetes. But the data isn’tentirely clear on that point.

There’salso a general rise in illness and infections. That contributes todecreased life expectancy but also means more sick days. Less timewhen any one individual can productively work.

Partof what this is gearing towards is this: I’m not sure it would bepossible to consistently keep someone on five hours sleep a nightonly for their entire life without a huge death rate.

It’sthe illnesses. I think if cult members were denied sleep while sick(especially if they’re also forced to work or their diet iscontrolled) then- well I think there’d be a lot more people dyingfrom common, preventable illnesses. Not instantly. Not within thefirst decade. But in the longer term or thirty or so years.

Onthe other hand if the cultists who are ill aregetting enough sleep then you don’t strictly have five hours sleepa night for the rest of their lives. What you’ve got instead issomething more like ‘five hours sleep a night until you reachphysical collapse, then you can rest’.

That’sextremely unhealthy, painful and harmful. But it’s less likely tokill so many people so quickly.

Partof the issue is how ‘functional’ the characters need to be. Atfive hours, it would be dangerous to drive or operate other heavymachinery. Accidents would be more likely. Mistakes would be morelikely.

Butthat doesn’t mean these characters couldn’t do most of the day today tasks required to keep a small community going.

It’snot that the cooking couldn’t get done, it’s that the chances ofdropping a pan full of boiling water on someone’s foot is a lothigher. Less that complex tasks can’t get done and more that they’dtake longer, be completed less well, less effectively and there’dbe a higher chance of accidents on the way.

Incidentallyif a big part of this story is the standard tactic of elite membersof the group making other members feel less confident in themselves-usethis effect of sleep deprivation to help accomplish that.Because people who are sleep deprived thinkthey are physically and mentally capable of more than they are.

Youcan sit them down and say ‘Listen S, the low amount of work you’vegotten through this month is unacceptable. We agreed that you couldfinish this project in a week and it’s taken two. You’re just nottrying hard enough’

Andtheywill agree.Because they don’t know how impaired they are. It’sone of the stranger effects that consistently shows up in testing andI feel like it’s very relevant here.

Theincrease in workplace accidents is also affected by the decrease inimmune function. Accidents are more likely andrecovery from them takes longer.

Theother thing that stands out to me is the effect this would have onthe living environment generally.

Sleepdeprived people are emotionally volatile. They also tend towardsbeing distrustful of others and paranoia. Again this isn’tsomething they necessarily recognise.

Whichmakes for a pretty horrendous environment when you think about alarge group of people living in fairly close quarters andunable to really avoid each other.

Thinkabout how this meshes with the rise in accidents, forgetfulness andgeneral tiredness that go along with sleep deprivation and you’llsee what I mean. Someone drops the hot pan and it just misses someoneelse’s foot- was it deliberate? Someone forgets where they putsomething- obviously it was stolen. There was a stray shoe left outin the hall and a character almost tripped over it- clearly whoeverleft it there knew thatcharacter could/would trip.

Andso forth.

Fromthe point of view of your cult leaders this sort of misery andemotional upheaval is a positive. It makes it harder for people toorganise or relate in an authentic way to each other in the longterm. It couldmake it especially hard for parents and children to keep up apositive relationship, comparedto the relationship the children could have with the cult leaders.

Becausethe parents will always be too tired, too grumpy, too unpredictable,to relate well to a young child. Whereas the well rested cult leaderscould appear calmer, kinder andseem to have more time.

There’svariation within all of this obviously. Despite damagingcircumstances some people do live to a ripe old age and don’tdevelop cancer more than ‘normal’ people would (chemistryprofessors over 80 are an interesting breed). Some people may stillbe able to show some patience and kindness despite the effects sleepdeprivation has on emotional regulation.

Moneyand treatment can also extend the life of someone who is routinelysleep deprived and suffers from multiple health problems as a result.

Ifyou’ve read my previous posts then I think you’ll have an idea ofindividual symptoms and how they get progressively worse. A lot ofthis ask was me- not just trying to map out what the indefinite timeframe you have would look like but the effect it would have on agroup and the relationships within that group.

Ihope that helps. :)

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