#I've been rewatching jlu so

[iholli]

I had the longest fuckin essay written for this, accidentally closed Tumblr and deleted it, then rewrote it even LONGER. LET'S GO. I am sorry in advance for how fucking long this is op

So I saw this post a while back and kind of passed it by bc I was like nah I don't agree, but it stayed in my brain and as I've been rewatching JLTAS and reading MM comics I'm actually realizing you're on to something with this, op. tl;dr Martians do have established telepathy BUT it's a huge question of abilities and morals in the entirely new element that is humanity. buckle up fellas I'm about the drop the longest session of J'onn J'onzz discussion the internet will ever see me write about anything ever because my god he is a complex character and also my favorite. if you couldn't tell from my entire profile.

This will focus on JLTAS & JLU of course bc that's my earth prime canon or whatever, but I'm pulling out comics for my main point too since I consider them canon-adjacent or even somewhat canon lore so you know. spoilers for MM 98, MM 06, and Justice League Infinity if needed under the readmore. also don't quote me 100% on everything cause I've only read the comics once and I have the memory of a flea but I have a lot of thoughts on this topic so bear with me ?? hopefully this will end up being cohesive and shit, enjoy 👉👈 content warnings in the tags !! please check them before clicking ahead bc there's some fucked up stuff early on !!

So, first things first, let's address the biggest thing, and that's Martian telepathy and the Martian code. In MM 98 it's established that Martians are a telepathic race. It's how they communicate the majority of the time, but here's the catch: it's all willingly. Martians have to open their minds to reading, they have to give permission for this communication to happen. Only the "cop" system, the Manhunters, can freely read minds and even then there's some level of permission required except in extreme cases. Which, going by JLTAS lore, is little to none. The Secret Origins novelization explains that war, poverty, etc, had long ceased to exist on Mars, so the Manhunter profession is not exactly in high demand. But I digress.

The ultimate crime in Martian culture is telepathic violation. In MM 98, at Darkseid's bidding, J'onn's twin brother Ma'alafa'ak forcefully invades the minds of many of the Martians in his vicinity (he's already a very bitter guy for a long list of reasons so this doesn't exactly take a lot of convincing), including M'yri'ah, J'onn's wife. on their wedding night. this whole story is really fucked up, guys. This mind rape-- yes, that's the actual Martian term for it-- is not only a horrific breach of trust but is also extremely traumatizing. M'yri'ah struggles greatly to let J'onn back into her mind (part of the sacred side of Martian telepathy is mentally bonding with a partner when they marry) after the fact because she just feels so tainted (you get the idea with the term rape being used for this situation, that's the only reason I included the word itself). When the Manhunters confirm Ma'alafa'ak's guilt the Martian leaders wipe his mind and remove his telepathic abilities so he doesn't have any memory of the incident and everything leading to it (which ends up not lasting long-term and makes him even angrier. the comic is a good read but it's depressing and fucked up. someone please give J'onn a hug. also keep this in mind for later).

To bring this around to op's original point, I think this falls into the setting of A Better World well. Bruce asks "can't, or won't?" of J'onn reading Lord J'onn's mind, and J'onn tells him "both." It's not a matter of inability, but moral conduct. J'onn is a Manhunter, so yes, he could barge into Lord J'onn's mind, but aside from Bruce's intuition he has absolutely no reason to distrust this other version of himself, so he refuses to do it. The Martian code means he can't do it without permission or reason, and his moral compass means he won't do it either.

So now that the precedent is set for the Martian mind reading code, let's get more into the JLTAS of the original post.

J'onn arrives on Earth and, as op mentioned, he is more than likely bombarded. Unlike Martians who have to open their minds willingly, humans have no such barriers. Their thoughts are all out in the open and they are loud (see Tabula Rasa). It's hard for J'onn to deal with this volume and I suspect he's only keeping it together because he's imprisoned in the Rockies, which aren't exactly bustling, and the stasis field doesn't let anything in or out. The Secret Origins novelization confirms J'onn was trying to reach out to Superman for at least six months (HOWEVER there's time discrepancy happening here, the Watchtower took nine months to build but Diana also says in Paradise Lost that she was off Themyscira for eight months, so take it as you will). Of course, I don't think the stasis field alone is to blame for this-- J'onn is more powerful than any primitive human technology, so it may not be that hard for him to get around the stasis if he so chooses, though he's also significantly weakened at this time. But he has to grapple with whether or not it's okay. If he reads Superman's mind, is he breaking the Martian code? Clark isn't Martian, but he's still another alien. J'onn seems to work around this by only establishing who Superman is and then implanting images in his brain to communicate the impending doom and J'onn's location-- a moral compromise.

(Secret Origins also established that the Imperium's species drained Martian abilities, so the Imperium and J'onn could communicate telepathically during their final encounter. That's the closest thing J'onn has to a "normal" conversation in the entire series and sequel. Not necessarily related, just thought it worth noting?)

So J'onn is well aware of his telepathic abilities, but adapting to their use on Earth is not just a battle but a full scale war. This can also absolutely explain why J'onn is nerfed pretty much the entire series. If he has to fight a physical battle on top of the constant mental war just to stay sane among seven billion people with zero mental barriers, J'onn is going to lose badly every time, and that's magnified tenfold when he has to use his telepathic abilities too. In Legends he tries to 1v1 Ray, who's been doing an insane amount of mental upkeep for 40 years, and knocks J'onn on his ass twice (credit to him for getting up the first time, but he attempts a combined physical and mental attack and it is excruciating, resulting in J'onn being out the rest of the fight. also this one is kind of a gray area for me in regards to the code and J'onn tearing down Ray's mental protection. Was it absolutely necessary? Was J'onn only dispersing an illusion? I don't know that I can 100% call this a breach of the Martian code so I'm not, at least for this discussion). In A Knight of Shadows when J'onn reaches out telepathically to locate Morgan le Fay (this is just him doing his job as a Manhunter, so he's not violating the code imo), the sorceress says J'onn is "merely an amateur" and "he has no idea who he's dealing with" before proceeding to absolutely destroy his mental state.

Relevant tangent, this is by far the worst telepathic backlash J'onn receives in the series, to the point I think it actively corrupted his moral compass and perhaps even truly set all this off. While he's struggling to fight the visions he knows are not real, J'onn is slipping, and during his fight with Etrigan he doesn't hesitate to barge into the demon's mind. And yeah, the tragedy of Jason Blood is what snapped J'onn out of it completely, but if you add the realization that he just committed the worst crime of his culture on top of it? Suddenly it makes a lot more sense why J'onn then tries to leave the League. That's almost more devastating for him than the visions of what he lost. He endangered his adopted family and did the one thing Martians are never supposed to do (even if Etrigan isn't Martian by any means, the principal stands, and J'onn is not exactly the best about giving himself the nuance of being largely under le Fay's possession).

Back to the point, in Tabula Rasa J'onn tells Clark that he can attempt a telepathic global sweep to locate Luthor (it's in his job description, again, so it's okay-ish), but J'onn has worked for at the very least a year and a half (I'm clocking it at 2+ years by this point personally) to shut out that much noise. Reopening the floodgates is going to be hard on him, and we see that it is, as J'onn has to escape to the quietest place he can find on Earth while he recovers from the agonizing mental barrage.

Next up, in Only a Dream we get the only moment in JLTAS or JLU when J'onn actually sleeps. He's in a semiconscious state on the Watchtower, the quietest mental place accessible. In Justice League Infinity we do see that J'onn actually sleeps at least somewhat regularly, so this absolutely backs up the sleep deprivation point imo.

In the same episode J'onn shows his power level more (why Only a Dream is my favorite episode set), but he's still out of his depth. Doctor Destiny is brand new to the mental game yet J'onn can't bring a normal human out of his hold. Destiny is ruthless, unhinged, and motivated to destroy the League and anyone who gets in his way, no holds barred. J'onn is only able to combat him on the mental field by bringing Clark, John, and Wally into the fray. "I'm stronger than you are here," he tells Clark, but Superman's not a telepath. When facing Destiny the villain says "You can't beat me," and J'onn knowingly replies with "That's why I brought a friend." J'onn is not equipped for this level of telepathic battle. He's got a leg up on his teammates, or at least most of them, but he's not strong enough on his own to take down someone so willing to break rules. I suspect even if J'onn could get to Shayera telepathically he wouldn't have been able to help her because she was so far gone in Destiny's mental hold.

Which brings me to the Thanagarians. At the beginning of Starcrossed J'onn mentions to GL that he can't read Shayera's mind, he never could, and he can't read any of the hawk minds. We find out that Thanagarians have a very strong natural mental barricade and when it finally comes down to life and death J'onn has to fight hard to read Kragger's mind. I believe the only reason he's able to get that far is time and perhaps desperation; by this point we've seen him getting a better hold on using his telepathy in this new element, a la holding his own going 1v1 telepathically with Grodd in The Secret Society (and it's still imperfect-- J'onn didn't realize the League was being mentally manipulated until after the fact, not to mention Grodd has had less time with his telepathic abilities than J'onn, so there's some power imbalance). Were the invasion any sooner I don't know if J'onn could've pulled off breaking a Thanagarian mind.

Which, yeah, that's exactly what happened. Although it technically falls under "necessary force" of the Martian code, J'onn had to absolutely destroy Kragger mentally to read his mind. It was exhausting, undoubtedly horrific, and very possibly traumatic for J'onn. And at this point I think he's really fully beginning to slip morally.

When JLU opens we see J'onn holed up in the Watchtower. He angrier, less friendly, doesn't interact unless necessary, snaps at everyone. He's gentler with the og group because they're family but even with them he's prone to be more short and snarky. He's always been sassy, but this reads to me as less banter and more just fucking tired and a little bitter, you know?

But why? J'onn's never been an extrovert, but why is he suddenly more hostile and withdrawn? My answer is he feels he's losing his hold on his moral compass, and maybe that scares him, and we know from so many JLTAS instances that J'onn is very much ✨ keep it to yourself ✨ with his problems (same, and bless him, but he's an impulsive idiot sometimes fr. makes him human). As early as Hawk and Dove, J'onn reminds Diana, "You and I have both been affected by our time among humans. It's important that we keep ourselves in check." I think this speaks louder volumes about where J'onn is standing than Diana. How far is he going to keep himself in check? Has he decided that hiding on the Watchtower rather than being out on missions himself is the best course of action to preserve his morals? Does he believe being around humans on an earthside capacity is driving him downhill? More importantly, can you blame him? He's seen the worst humanity can offer for years now, he just watched his closest friend fly off the handle at the smallest inconvenience. If power doesn't corrupt then maybe being exposed to humanity long enough will.

And it only gets worse. Task Force X (my favorite JLU episode) really smacks you in the face from this viewpoint. A group of humans breaks into the Watchtower. J'onn is unable to stop them because they threaten his team. He can't track them down because they've done major damage to the Watchtower systems. And worst of all, the whole thing was set into motion because another human betrayed the League. When J'onn figures out who was responsible, his immediate reaction is "I'd like to go in there and wipe clean the last two years of his memory." GL is shocked, asking, "Isn't that a little harsh?" to which J'onn only replies, very angrily, "We can't trust him!" This hits different after reading MM 98 because I see where this anger is coming from. This is very personal to J'onn. This is the biggest violation of his trust since Ma'alafa'ak (canon-adjacent, but relevant to consider) and his response is to pass the hardest judgement Martian culture offers. That's dark-- very, very dark. And all this because of a human. I know facing off with CADMUS absolutely did not make J'onn feel better about the whole ordeal either.

By season 2 J'onn is a total hermit, and they can't even determine when he was last on the surface. He wants nothing to do with humanity one on one and Diana calls him on it in To Another Shore. "You really don't like humanity all that much, do you?" J'onn only says "I don't... dislike them." Earth is his adopted home, he's duty bound to protect it, and to pull one of my favorite quotes from MM 06, "...this is a good planet, filled with good people. You just need to see it for yourselves."

Relevant tangent number 2, this comic is perfect for this point in discussion. The JLA has disbanded, and J'onn has adopted a more Martian appearance in public, which means he's trying to help people and he's only scaring them because they don't trust him, he looks different, but he's too tired of hiding to care anymore. As the comic goes on he's led to believe humans have been experimenting on other Martians and he kinda goes off the deep end to protect them. Yet in the middle of all this shit he still says there are good people on Earth.

So we can see where J'onn is at here. He knows there's good on Earth, that it's not all a waste, and that they're worth protecting, that's why he's still in the League helping people. But he doesn't have to like or even want to be around humans to still hold that belief (take it from someone who knows).

To Another Shore finally brings J'onn back to Earth, and this is where the tide turns for him (pun not intended pls). He's already on the slippery slope with his morals, and in the episode he doesn't hesitate to read Giganta's mind. He gets backlash from Grodd but he recovers almost immediately, and that's the worst part. He's not just capable of breaking the Martian code now, he's good at it, despite being isolated on the Watchtower for however many years. What Diana said to him and the tragedy of Prince Jon (why are there so many Johns in DC) hits full force and J'onn realizes being withdrawn from humanity is hindering as much as it is helping him. He needs to get out there and find the good he knows humans have to offer. He needs to be one of them, because yeah, he's going to live a long time and it's not going to do him any favors to spend that time alone, but he also needs to actually balance his abilities with the capacity of humans. He needs to find ways to reconnect with his moral compass, to adapt his code, right on Earth.

Also, having just reread, Justice League Infinity absolutely hits this home because he's still struggling with these issues. J'onn is finding a little peace and making friends among humans, but he's having to actively shut off his telepathic connection to the League which works like, 50-50 for him. When Overman shows up and a close human friend disappears, J'onn can't stay away any longer and rushes in. Unfortunately the instant he arrives J'onn immediately goes after Overman telepathically to shut him down because, well, he's a raving Nazi version of Superman with none of the morals to prevent him from hurting or killing. J'onn stops him kind of brutally, saying, "Your mind, Overman. Give it to me." J'onn's acting on instinct and emotion and he regrets it right away after reading Overman's mind to find he's just a broken man fucked up by Vandal Savage, and feels guilty about "violating his mind" for a long time after. He has to threaten Overman again bc this guy is dangerous and unhinged, and it works too well. Overman is terrified of J'onn. Feeling worse than ever J'onn tells Diana, "I am disgusted with myself. Telepathic invasion is anathema to me... and yet I did it eagerly." This is the second time he's expressed his guilt to his friend in this comic and I absolutely lend that to my reason why he left the League. J'onn's gotten too good at handling the power of his telepathy on Earth, he knows it, and it scares and disgusts him that it's so bad even other people are visibly afraid of him.

In a way being in the League didn't do him any favors. You see the worst of the worst, day in and day out, and most of the time the thanks you get isn't going to balance it. You're controversial, people love you, people hate you, you draw more trouble because that's how it works with heroes and villains, you get shit like Eclipsed happening. J'onn didn't get the Clark Kent Earth experience, he got the Bruce Wayne Earth experience, except worse because J'onn can hear the thoughts of seven billion people all the damn time, and people always think things they'd never say out loud. "You and I have both been affected by our time among humans" is such a raw line for this.

But hey, JLI nicely wraps the story for J'onn. He helps Diana and Bruce save the multiverse (in a glorious WonderBat moment) and when it's all said and done he decides he wants to be an ambassador for the League. J'onn is finding ways to best connect with people while staying true to the part of him that's so bonded with his family in the League.

Anyway, my brain totally ran away with this, hopefully I addressed the actual original post in all my bullshit ??? LMAO I have a lot a lot a LOT of thoughts and feelings on the complexity of J'onn J'onzz. There's soooooo much to him that JLTAS and JLU service well but not loudly unless you're looking for it.

(y'all please ask me things about J'onn. I love talking about him. I could go on for 4358366847 years and not cover everything I have to say. please take the keyboard away from me now I spent so many hours on this I HOPE IT'S READABLE OMG)

I've been watching Justice League the animated series and I just fell down a rabbit hole with my husband and have to share it/inflict it on everyone else:

Okay, going only off of thr canon in JL:TAS, J'onn J'onzz establishes that Martians CAN'T read each other’s minds when the Justice Lord version of Martian Manhunter shows up.

Which made me think, wait, did the Martians NOT know they were telepathic before that?

Like, yeah the white Martians invaded and it was implied that the green Martians knew at that point that they could read minds and the like, but like...I'm obsessed now with the idea of J'onn J'onzz had no idea that he could read minds until he came to earth and suddenly was in a world were every sentient creature seemed to be screaming all the time even when they weren't actually speaking

Like, part of his learning how to adapt to earth is learning how to use his sudden telephonic abilities. It even works well story telling wise when it comes to the issue of "opps our hero has a power that would make this plot end in a second" thing. Make it something that when he gets too overwhelmed and stressed it starts shorting out, or maybe it's something where it keeps him from sleeping because being relaxed enough to sleep means the mental walls he's managed to build for himself are lowered and all the chatter starts filtering in.

Sleep deprivation is honestly a great tool for writing if you use it right. Need your overpowered hero to be weak enough for this enemy to be a threat? Sleep deprivation. Your smart character to do something a little dumb in a way that isn't annoying to the audience? Sleep deprivation! As long as you make the effects consistent for the character in question it can give you a lot of breathing room for plot lines in a way that won't piss off your readers (so long as you don't over use it at least) while also adding the benefit of mixing in a little angst as your character deals with it.

Just, I really want a story of Martian Manhuntwr having to deal with sudden Mind Reading powers upon coming to Earth and all the interesting consequences and storylines that could come out of that.

[mollitiama-blog]

“ name one hero who was happy. “

           ❛      BILLY  BATSON,  THE  KID  who  yelled  shazam  and  then  became  a  straight  up  hero.  i  don’t  think  i’ve  seen  any  sad  comics  about  him,  because  he  was  a  silver  age  kid  who  yelled  a  magic  word,  became  a  superhero,  and  got  to  pal  around  with  superman.  he  was  definitely  happy.       ❜

@tachiisms​ // the song of achilles meme

[emperorsfoot]

I think anon did mean the Masterverse one. He gives me King He-man vibes.

Now, crazy headcanon! I've actually been trying to power scale MotU for my fic and I think Adam, when transformed, is indeed Superman tier when pushed.

We all know Masters is...fairly inconsistent at times but upon rewatching JLU and rereading Eternity War (fav comics for motu. So good) I think hevis psychologically nerfing himself. We see it all the time: Superman, Spider-Man, many heavy hitters hold back to avoid killing people.

Now, Adam is the heir of the power, essentially Creation itself. No matter what version, the Power of Grayskull is essentially equivalent to a massive creative force. Add to that his powers are also a blend of genetics and magic, it's actually a very balanced toolset to go into battle with.

Now, figure he is getting upgrades, skills or armor from the castle, this furthet indicates tp me he has a substantial amount of growing room. I can delve into the DC vs Masters fight with fake Superman if anyone wants, but I stand by the fact Adam won that fight (circumstances aside).

Questions? Thoughts?

The DC/MotU crossover comics were a little convoluted, but I don't think the power scale in MotU and the power scale in the DC-verse are a perfect 1-to-1 scale.

My advice would be, instead of trying to fit you concept of MotU into a different franchise's box, build your own power scale that fits you and your interpretation of the world and characters. If you like the DC run of MotU comics, then of course use that as a base. But don't stress over making it fit perfectly.