#I've been refreshing on comics so if I don't have all my facts straight and am just making myself look dumb then whoops i guess lol

[fae-morrigan]

I'm going to try and be as nice as possible here since you've admitted to not being caught up, and therefore you're not really playing with a full hand in this conversation. I get it! DC puts out a lot of stuff! But, as a nonbinary person, aka the specific flavor of trans Sydney is, I feel maybe you'd appreciate my perspective on why I actually think this story was kind of awful, and why SOKE's approach is deeply refreshing. I'll even suggest a non-jon alternative that does queerness well as my final magic trick!

Nicole Maines, trans activist and current writer for DC (she's actually about to take a swing at Jon, you should catch up to read her stuff she's really good at it) has posited before that there is a difference in representation for queer people and representation for straight people. Largely, she points to the difference being how the narrative treats it- Does it treat it like its somehow... odd? Does it need to be exposited to the audience what a gay is at every turn? Is the character and story entirely based around their deviance?

And... yeah, as a nonbinary person, reading this story, I realized very very very quickly that it was not made for me.

Sydney isn't really a person outside of their nonbinary-ness. At most, they're meek, and the (cis) boys teach them how to be stronger and hashtag stand up to bullying. They take a long page to explain their identity to the two of them in a way that is, kind of cold and detached in a way that you can tell is meant to exposit to the audience, not really how a trans person would explain ourselves? And we never get much insight into how THEY feel about all this. Its about the Supersons, and them being allies! It's not really about Sydney at all.

(Also Tomasi is kind of a of a raging conservative in most of his works, so. Like. Don't like that he was given this story as opposed to a trans person.)

BUT! I do sort of give Belle Reve a pass for its simplicity, and how it uses queerness to self-actualize for our supersons, because... its a short story! It's meant to be quick, to the point. Not spin off into a whole storyline. And y'know, some stories are made for cis het people, they clearly need to play catchup judging by the state of the world, lol.

And yet, whenever I re-read it, I feel like an outsider looking in on a stranger describing, wrongly, my own life. I mean, I was sydney in middle school. I was out as nonbinary then and I've had to have these conversations before. So much nonbinary representation in media, especially comics, feels the need to do this. I'm tired of it: I want to exist and not have to explain myself. That's what a lot of queer people, including other bisexuals (as you mention you are), like about SOKE! It's just... present, its real, but it isn't usually a huge kerfuffle about it.

So many queer narratives are about the fact that we're queer. Actually, its almost all of the mainstream ones right now. Its like its the only conversation we can have about ourselves. I would love some comic narratives that are queer, but are also about something else too. DC is finally giving that to us, and there are a LOT of people who have been craving that after a constant... barrage of 'white dudes finding themselves' as a gay staple.

Also: SOKE is a coming of age story! It IS Jon finding himself, having an identity crisis, its just not focused around his queerness... It's focused around his identity as a burgeoning Superman in the wake of life-altering trauma. Something that continues to carry his story even now, and honestly, I think it does it very well. From a writing standpoint (as I make comics, I dont just talk about them), building Jon's story about his struggle to do the right thing in the wake of the biggest shadow in the universe has much broader applications for a plethora of writers than... well, he's bisexual superman and that's it.

And I do know you are interested in a story about self-discovery that isn't related to being a Superhero, but I would remind you, this.. is a superhero genre. There's gonna be cows outside and so forth, the superheroing is usually metaphor FOR that other bit of self discovery: Its why people write in this genre. That is absolutely the case with Jon at points. I suggest you read the age up as being metaphorical, as that's explicitly what Bendis intended. I've read thousands of superhero comic books, and I think the one that gets closest to even approaching the non-superhero thing is maaaaybe far sector (which, even if its not, you should read anyways omfg NK Jemisin is a wizard).

But him being into men DOES come up as part of that. They DO deal with his queerness. Right here! Issue seventeen. I don't know if you got to that part during your initial read (I am guessing not as this issue came out at the very very end of '22), but its my favorite issue for a reason!

I do, admittedly in my little mean heart, take umbrage with you deciding Jon hasn't had development, that he had potential, not has, despite admitting to having not caught up with him at ALL. And like yeah. They did stuff with him that's pretty upsetting for the plot. Because this is a narrative. And conflict has to happen for a narrative to happen. It can't just be happy all the time or it'll get boring super fast, especially with DC, a property that has gone on for like 80 actual years. You gotta shake things up!

But y'know what? I still have opinions on things I am not caught up with, like BNHA, so its very glass houses of me to give you shit for it, lmfao. My soapbox is fragile and is at risk of being eaten by termites.

So, instead, I direct you to this reading list made by my pal & mutual @bobbinalong. It has every Jon appearance you missed, categorized by if its essential, if its pre or post age up. That way you know exactly what you've missed out on, past AND present, and can catch up if you wanna join in on the conversations we're having.

And now, on the topic of comics you should read if you want good queerness that ISN'T Jon Kent, because I'm tired of that swagless white boy:

Bad Dream: A Dreamer Story by Nicole Maines is a paperback graphic novel about young trans girl Nia Nal (yeah, from the CW show! she's in the dc comics now!) discovering she has powers from her home planet that are SUPPOSED to be passed onto the eldest daughter, but skipped her sister and went to her. It's casually queer BUT ALSO the queerness impacts the plot, its fun, its got so much women in it, it made me CRY:

Go forth!

I just wanna rant for a moment here.

I am slowly getting back into comics (you can thank Wolverine for that) and I'm starting by reading the comic issues I've already bought but haven't read yet. One of them is the "Saved by the Belle Reve" anthology.

One of the 8 stories in the book was a Super Sons comic called: Back to School.

the whole story revolves around Jon and Damian befriending a kid named Sydney, who gets bullied by 2 other boys because they're non-binary.

Damian teaches Sydney to fight so they can defend themselves, and Jon talks to them about turning the other cheek.

"I hope i know myself as well as you do one day" hit me hard.

I wish they handled Jon being bisexual kind of the same way they handled identity and gender in this comic.

i haven't been updated on recent dc comics news since early 2023 so i don't know much about what's going on with Jon now.

I still think that Jon being bisexual isn't bad, in fact i think it would have given him great character development of sorts. I think it's rare to see in comics (i could be wrong, i have not read much) a character go through some sort of self discovery that isn't at all related to being a superhero. I would have loved to see Jon navigate adolescence. Having some identity crisis, finding himself, like most teenagers do.

He had so much potential. Aging him up not only ruined a lot of his relationships (w/ his parents, damian) it also ruined him as a character...

(that's all I'm gonna say for now since i don't really remember much of what i read 2-3 years ago, so i could still be wrong)

tldr: I guess I'm still upset about DC aging up Jon for the plot and just slapped bisexual on him

[cold-neon-ocean]

Concerning the comics, do you dislike Thanos himself or the Black Order's previous (?) affiliation with him?

A mix of both but primarily the former. Thanos is my least favorite fictional character in existence so I’ll always grind my teeth at The Order’s subservience to him seemingly without much reason in the earlier comics aside from “they’re evil and Thanos is the biggest evil so they worship him!” because to me it’s boring. I don’t like god-mod characters and Thanos is the epitome of that trope. “He’s so powerful that only gets defeated by the heroes because he subconsciously wants to lose as punishment, isn’t he just the most tragic villain ever ;A;” gags

Regarding The Order’s affiliation with him I don’t.. MIND it, in fact I do like it as a set up for their coming together, I just wish it was written where the characters had some more agency and Marvel would actually allow them to move on once he’s gone. Admittedly with the Thanos 2019 comics they did seem to attempt this (despite how many holes it poked in the known canon among other things), and I liked some of the ideas presented, mainly The Order starting out as hired mercenaries with Proxima and Maw, I loved that a lot, and how their loyalty is conditional so long as they are benefiting from the partnership (maybe not as flip-floppy as they were in the comics) and are willing to dip out if they aren’t. THAT I really like even though that was clearly never the case in previous comics lol. The problem is that I- love Proxima SO MUCH, and I hate Thanos SO MUCH so my brain doesn’t want her anywhere near him, especially as some mindless lackey because she deserves better lol. Also my issues could stem from my primary introduction to The Black Order came from the MCU where they are VASTLY different characters than what they are in the comics, and far less developed so I had a lot more room to headcanon and make up my own stuff about them freely before I started looking into them in the comics (which could also explain my mixed feelings about how they’ve been written lately in the comics post-Thanos). I do want to preface that I don’t have a complete knowledge of The Order’s history because I can’t find complete lists of all the comics they’re in. Though from what I can find I’ve read most of their content if I’m not mistaken, but I’m sure there are some more obscure minor appearances that maybe explain some things that haven’t been listed anywhere that I’ve missed.

If I were to throw in my input and talk about MY rendition of The Black Order which is how I choose to write them based on my own personal tastes in my side AU where the Marvel Universe is much less CONVOLUTED(the same AU all my Ronan and Crystal content exists in), I have things set up jumping off the initial ideas of Thanos 2019, where the mercenary group Maw and Proxima were in were initially hired by Thanos, with Cull (I refer to Black Dwarf by his MCU name because I like it better lol) and Corvus being added later. And the affiliation is very conditional from The Order’s perspective. The Order are always watching and judging and gauging whether or not the partnership is worth maintaining, Maw and Proxima especially, and even though I try to write for Thanos as little as possible because I hate touching him and only do what’s absolutely necessary, he can feel the pulls of their defiance at times (with Proxima ESPECIALLY) and has to really think about how he holds onto them, hence the change from hiring adults to kidnapping children who are much easier to condition. Think of them as akin to the hyenas and Scar in The Lion King, loyalty and a willingness to do as they’re told until they stop benefiting from it (though the fear of being hunted down and killed for disloyalty keeps them there as well) and later on realizing, and some having known from the beginning, that they’re meant for more than just being servants and want more for themselves. But that’s in my perfect would. 

What I mainly don’t like about how The Order were written under Thanos in the canon is that they’re just lackeys with not much to them, we know nothing about them like when or why they joined (prior to Thanos 2019 ofc but even then we still don’t knew when or how Cull and Corvus came into the picture), just that they did and that’s all that matters. They’re there because they’re evil and that’s about it, they’re blind followers with not a single thought going on in their own heads. That did change over time of course but The Order are STILL functioning under a “what if Thanos comes back” basis, like they’ll have no choice but to go crawling back to him whenever/if he does because that’s just what they do? I knew Marvel would never keep Thanos permanently dead in the comics like they said they would lol I called bullshit on that from day one. When Maw mentioned Thanos’ return in Star #5 I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly fell out of my mouth because I KNEW that was coming (though I do appreciate how Proxima didn’t give a single shit about it lmao). There was also something said preceding the Black Order solo comics in 2019 about how Corvus will still ALWAYS choose Thanos above all else, even his wife and brother, which made ZERO sense??? and also I wasn’t sure why this needed stating when Thanos was canonically dead in the comics following the statement that he’d be perma-dead. It felt like they just weren’t gonna let him grow as there was always that possibility they’d bring Thanos back and send The Order right back to him, undoing all the development they’ve done without him like they’ve done before. I remember when Thanos made Corvus kill himself after he returned and formed a new Black Order and Proxima just... didn’t react to it, though this seemed to be retconned after the universe reset so I’m still confused about that. I also think about how in the Death Sentence novel (and I know this kind of exists in it’s own separate universe but just discussing the overall mentality of writing The Order), again Corvus in particular is written like he needs someone to lead him or he can’t even properly function and he even has a full blown emotional breakdown when he realizes Thanos is back and I just… hate it. Him and Proxima “needing” Thanos to be their god and lead them it’s just stupid and weird and I can’t stand it. I remember Proxima even makes an internal statement about how Corvus falls apart when he doesn’t have someone leading him???

So my main issue in regards to Thanos’ affiliation with The Order as it’s written in the canon is that they’re written as if they can’t do anything without him, ofc this is all before the big universe reset with The Challenger where Thanos is supposedly dead for good but we all know that isn’t true. They were given some agency when they were on their own but with the mention of Thanos in the recent Star comic I have… little hope for them remaining their own thing. They talk about how they don’t want to be servants and how they want to do their own thing then the writers have them fall right back into their old beats of being servants for someone and chasing infinity stones and worrying about what T fucking Hanos will think when he comes back and I just…….. want more for them. I want them to be more fleshed out as characters and have actual ambitions and goals that align with their actions. Because they’re such interesting characters that I genuinely love(well most of them) and have a lot of potential, and I want to see them grow and develop and actually follow through with what they say and not get dragged backwards every time the plot requires them to. I’m still catching up on all my Black Order related comics (there aren’t a lot of complete lists of their appearances out there for me to refer to sadly but I’ve read most of the major ones I believe) but all I really want is for them to finally and actually be able to move on from Thanos. Especially with Corvus because (prior to Star #5 which I’ll expand on in a sec) it makes him look fucking stupid to have him default to “we chase the infinity stones because that’s what we do” after having them talk in previous comics about about how they want to be different and work for themselves, and Black Swan is like “chasing the stones has only ever made us miserable, whymst are we doing this???” and have her bring up valid points about how they don’t need to and Corvus is still just like “nope, nope we gotta.” and doesn’t even explain why. And now apparently that ‘why’ is because they expect Thanos to return? Or at least Maw does? I choose to believe that Corvus wanted the reality stone because it could give them some protection from a possible return of Thanos and allow them to stay together and do as they please like they want. To “forge their own reality” as Corvus said in the Death Sentence novel ironically, that would at the very least be a reason to continue infinity stone hunting that I’d be on board with.

I dunno, lol perhaps my lack of the full scope with missing a few things from sporadic comics and just my own personal views and tastes regarding the characters clash a lot with how the canon wants to portray them and at the end of the day that just is what it is lol. I didn’t intend this to get so long and.. rambly, the subject of Thanos in general gets me on a soap box and I never know how to get off aah. But yeah I hope that made some semblance of sense? The main gist of the story was really that sentence about loving Proxima and hating Thanos so I just naturally want her nowhere near him; and it was actually that affiliation that put me off of The Order for so long before I finally saw the light and realized they’re all vastly more interesting characters than he is LMAO. But I’m gonna stop because this just hit it’s 3rd page in my google docs and I’m starting to get embarrassed wheezes :’D