#I'm aware that Lilith is from Jewish lore

[the-monkey-ruler]

So my brother bought me JTTW to read when he found LMK so I could compare/contrast with the show and now I come bearing a question about Macaque: I see that he's supposed to be the shadow-self, but there's this emphasis on completely eliminating the shadow-self (which in JTTW makes sense he was terrifying). IDK what message they're going for in LMK other than 'Wukong bad' (but the show seems to have a vandetta against Wukong so idfk) so if it just zoomed over my head please inform me I am l o s t. What if an interpretation came out discussing Macaque in the light more of the Black Moon Lilith? It hits the same beats as being the "shadow self", that being the nastier truths about yourself that you don't want to admit. But I think it would be neat if there was some expansion: In reading a star chart you're meant to use your Lilith as a way to confront the darkest parts of yourself and learn that they're a part of you just as much as the positive sides of you. I feel like Macaque could be a really good example of someone who leaned into his Lilith entirely too much until he was consumed by it, versus Wukong who acknowledged his Lilith (destructive behavior & anger) and didn't obliterate it, he did the healthy thing and acknowledged it (eventually), even moderating it. Outright trying to destroy your Lilith is actually a horrible idea since, whether you like it or not, it's still a part of you. Hurting your Lilith still hurts you. I dunno I just would love to see this,,, If a piece of media has already done this please let me know because I actually study astrology and I would go WILD if this concept was explored (/positive)!!

Well in Xiyouji they don't kill Six Eras being he is terrifying (while he is) but rather they kill him because it is to show Wukong finally standing up to his inner self. This is his first time controlling his own impulses and shutting them down with his own self-restraint.

That being said I really think that LMK just makes their Six-Eared Macaque a guy. Some person. Which isn't the first time Xiyouji media has given the Six Ears an individual past from Wukong, there is a lot actually! There is a lot of Six Ears backstory lore, esp in the last 10 years or so but… I'm not sure if I can say that LMK Six Ears is a Lilith at all.

Considering that 1. trying to wrap other mythos in Chinese mythos. I've seen interpretations where Indian or Japanese lore has been mixed with Xiyouji interactions but this "Black Moon Lilith" looks like it comes from Greek Astrology. I really don't think the showrunners would go that far at least for what is supposed to be a Chinese franchise to add Western mythos… at least I would hope that as that seems a bit tasteless.

And 2. they are really making it that the LMK Six Ears wasn't born from LMK Wukong but rather they were separate entities from the very start. LMK Six Ears is a person all unto his own and yes while he is supposed to represent the worst traits of Wukong as an allegory and is a spiritual monkey that doesn't have to mean every interaction he has to bodily be connected to Wukong. At least in this version from what I can tell he is to be on the same level of connection as Demon Bull King as they are Sworn Brothers.

That being said I don't know a lot about Greek Astrology myself and I've been interested in studying it... so I don't know if other media has used it before.

I would just say to be careful when trying to pinpoint Western mythos and apply them to Eastern mythos. I'm not saying they can't interact but that trying to analyze one through the lens of the other could just lead to confusion. I understand trying to find concepts and trying to make new media more reliable but I think it might be dangerous trying to try to use other media as examples when expressing these ideas when they are not the intended purpose.

[knight-a3]

Heavenbound AU Lore

This Google Doc will have more details while this post is more simplified

Preface:

I'm going to be ignoring canon quite a bit for this. I'm not particularly fond of the overall worldbuilding in canon so far. I don't like the portrayal of religious figures(*cough cough* Adam *cough*). And the morality is very inconsistent. So this AU is for me to bend things to my preferences.

To be clear, my intention is not total theological accuracy(that would be hard anyway, since it's pulling from various doctrines and traditions of primarily Abrahamic belief systems), but I do want to be purposeful about what I change. I know Hellaverse is not claiming to be accurate either, but blatant disregard to the borrowed theology can be bothersome, because it can misrepresent and disrespect religious people, particularly Jewish and Christian in this case.

Although I still depart from the original Bible story, I wanted to do it in a respectful way. I will inevitably incorporate elements of my own beliefs, but it’s not going to be a fully accurate representation of them. It's still fictional worldbuilding.

To me, this show is about the possibility of redemption for anyone. That nobody is beyond hope.

Nothing is set in stone, and I’ll update this as needed. More under the cut. It's a basic rundown of what I have so far, so I recommend looking at the Google Doc linked at the top for more details.

Jesus will not be in this, plot holes regarding the existence of Christianity will be blatantly ignored. Adam is not a misogynist jerk. Lilith has a slightly different origin. Heaven is not awful, and Hell is complicated. Sexual innuendos will be toned down because I'm too ace for it.

--Simplified hierarchy--

Heaven:

The Creators

Seraphim (elder seraphim aka the 7 virtues, Radiant)

Saints (Archangels, Citizens)

Cherubim (Mature Cherub, High Cherub, Low Cherub, Premature, Immature)

Hell:

Goetia (nobel class= Lucifer, Charlie, Sins, Calamities)

Sinners (Lilith, Overlords, Fallen Saints, Denizens)

Imps (7 breeds)

Cryptids (Monsters, beasts)

Cursed

Abyssians/eldritch horrors

Creation and The Fall:

Adam and Eve were the first humans. Abyss created Lilith to tempt them to sin. Lilith was just as innocent as Adam and Eve, but did as Abyss instructed. She became friends with them. Helel was an angel of light and befriended all three of them(other angels did as well). But Helel especially liked Lilith. She convinced him to help her find the forbidden fruit.

Lilith offered the fruit to Adam and Eve, which they both took. The fruit gifts knowledge of good and evil, but also introduced death and the ability to sin. Lilith's attempts to tempt them to sin afterwards broke their friendship. Lilith felt abandoned and didn't know what went wrong. She ate the fruit as well, at Helel's suggestion.

When the elder seraphim came to cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, they discovered Lilith and wanted to cast her into The Abyss. But Helel came to her defense, along with several other angels. They were accused of rebellion and cast into The Abyss with Lilith. The elder seraphim renamed Helel to Samael, so they could pretend they were different people. The Abyss corrupts the forms of those who were cast into it, so Helel, Lilith, and the other fallen angels were mutated into their demonic forms.

Helel created a realm within The Abyss and tamed some of the creatures there. This place became a sort of safety net that caught those who fell from Heaven or Earth, saving them from the Abyss. He's not actually aware he did that, so he just thinks everything is terrible. He called it Azazel(which means "to remove or separate from god" and refers to a desolate place. He was feeling a little depressed about being cast down.)

Because Helel brought light to the darkness of the Abyss, he was called the Lightbringer, and took the name Lucifer Morningstar.

Lilith wanted kids. But struggled to conceive because sinners can't reproduce. She eventually made a deal with Abyss, and was able to have Charlie.