#I'm a professional communication coach and I use this with a lot of my clients

[confused-android]

Let me teach y'all about:

The Thumb Trick

It originally started as a method for polling a group. Say you're at a party with 10 people, and you're trying to decide between pepperoni pizza and plain pizza. If you just voted, you might get 9 people voting for pepperoni and 1 person voting for plain, and you'd get a pepperoni pizza. But why did that 1 person vote for plain? Are they kosher? halal? vegetarian? Who knows! But now, 9 people get to eat and 1 person is hungry and that sucks.

So.

Everyone sticks out a thumb and indicates how much they want a specific outcome.

Thumbs up? I want this thing VERY much, to the exclusion of any other option.

Thumbs down? I do not want this thing at all, please do not make me do the thing.

Sideways? I am either ambivalent or don't care.

Halfway up? Yeah, I prefer this, but not getting it won't ruin my day.

Halfway down? I'd rather not, but I can deal.

Now you can poll the party of pizza eaters. All of the pepperoni voters will give you a full or partial thumbs up, but the last person's thumbs down lets everyone know that person can't and won't eat pepperoni, so we can make a different choice.

Okay. How do we use these with just two people?

Pretty much the same as you'd do with a group. Both people stick out a thumb, and you see whose thumb is furthest from sideways. That person has the stronger preference!

That seems too simple.

A little more precision is necessary when we're measuring nuances between two people. You don't only have to hold your thumb at the five discrete angles in the above image; you can hold it a smidge above neutral, to indicate a vague preference. You could hold it a smidge below 'thumbs up', to show that you really want that outcome, but you can handle not getting it. But when you start looking at these nitty-gritty levels of preference, it gets hard to measure angles without pulling out your protractor.

So I've mapped the thumb trick onto a clock, to make precision a little more possible.

Now I can say things like "I'm about an 8:30 for watching this show. Not my favorite, but I'm not distressed" or "I'm a solid 11:00 - I'll do it if you want, but I'm not stoked".

With this trick, I've had conversations like "Hey, I'm about a 7:30 on sleeping at your place tonight. I'm tired and I want to be with my cat, but I can walk to your place if you want." "I'm an 11:00 - I had a terrible day, and I don't want to go anywhere." "Alright, yours is the stronger preference; let me just grab my charger and I'll walk on over!"

The responsibility that comes with using the thumb trick is a) being honest about how much you want a thing, and b) trusting the person you're speaking with to also be honest about their answer.

We don't need to get that serious about things like what OP wants for lunch, but having the option is a great tool to keep in your back pocket!

I hate when people ask me about my preference but I don’t understand their preference level. Like yes I kinda want Chinese food 10% more than I want a sandwich but if you want a sandwich like 40% more than Chinese food then I would say it’s totally reasonable we get sandwiches.

[tcportfoliomgj]

Wednesday, 9th of June, 2021

"There is really nothing so good for thinking, for clearing your mind, for acquiring fresh, unexpected thoughts than crossing the borders of your homeland." - Jeroen Lutters

So today is the day. Well, technically tomorrow, but I have to hand this portfolio in at 8:00, so that basically means I have to finish and hand it in tonight. Things are a little chaotic. I think I've covered most of the competencies and such, but I still need to do a part of creativity, collaboration and professional challenges. I need to do critical thinking as well (though it's already woven in some other posts too), but I'll do that in another post.

At the start of the year, we had to do a PC with our learning teams. This meant I had to do it with Nynke and Marije. We decided to focus on the ideal classroom and wanted to make a 'guide' for other teachers. I must admit, we didn't always take it that seriously and I would do things differently now. Later, Stijn joined the team and he was able to really add something to our project even though he joined near the end. Our final product was a Padlet (appendix 23), something that I would certainly change if I had to do it now. It's not bad, especially not for a first PC, but I think I would prefer to have a booklet, a neater webpage or a more brochure-like product. Still, I learned a lot from it. I did the research for it and got to practice using databanks and such.

My second PC however, is a lot better in my opinion. It's not finished yet, but I think we might continue this project next year. I worked with Joyce, Marije, Kimberly, Dominique and Eva. Ton was our coach and Bert Wienen our 'client'. But let's take it back to the beginning...

One day, the girls and I started talking about something that was said in a webinar. It was about teachers and whether or not they should also help students with personal problems. At some schools, they keep those things strictly separate. The teacher does the teaching, and everything else is done by other professionals. We found this a little shocking. Sure, teachers aren't psychologists and I don't think they should ever try to be. However, a student's personal life can affect their academic life, so shouldn't we as teachers be there for them to lend an ear and support them? We started questioning what we heard and what we already knew. Pretty soon, the idea formed to make this our PC, but we didn't really know how yet.

We worked on the basics first, like making a group contract (appendix 24) in which we decided on some rules concerning our behaviour, et cetera. Then through Ton, we got in contact with Bert Wienen, as we needed a 'client' for our professional challenge. I've mentioned Bert before, because of his research. I was a bit apprehensive about working with him, because of what he had written and of what he had said in a lecture, but I did want to give it a chance. Together with Ton, we had a brainstorming session. We decided that we could definitely work with Bert, but that we didn't have to focus on labels and diagnoses. We wanted to keep it more general than that because being an involved teacher that coaches also means you want to help everyone with personal problems, not just the ones who are labelled with a certain 'problem'.

We started talking to Bert and quickly came to the conclusion that we already know a lot about what teachers think, but that it's just as important to know what students think. Eventually, we decided that we would conduct preliminary research to help Bert with his research. We wanted to interview students of different ages and focus on student voice. Perception isn't always the same as reality, but it does show us how people experience reality. In fact, the perceptions of students form their views of education and influence their behaviour (Quaglia & Corso, 2017). Because it was preliminary research, we didn't have to worry about all the technicalities. This way, Bert really gave us the opportunity to focus on the interviews.

We made a design canvas (appendix 25) together and started preparing the student interviews. We wrote a project plan (appendix 26), with me taking the lead since I had already had a semester of Project Management when I studied Global Project & Change Management. We also created an interview guideline (appendix 27). This way, we can draw a conclusion from open conversations because in every conversation we have recurring questions. Kimberly and Dominique conducted the interviews on VO, while Joyce did it on PO. We are currently in the process of transcribing all the interviews and we haven't really decided what our final product will be, but we will after the portfolio deadline. We think the conclusion will be that not all students need a teacher to take on a coaching role, but they often do appreciate it. The close proximity of a safe haven isn't the most important, but the knowledge of there being one (Stevens & Bors, 2013, p. 77). We also plan on continuing with this PC next year. Hopefully, we'll be able to take the next steps in our research.

I would say our PC has gone pretty smoothly so far. We communicate quite well and are very honest with each other. We created a space in Microsoft Teams so we could easily share files and work in documents together. Setting up a team collaboration environment can be encouraging and makes it easy to work on a project together (Horine, 2017). We decided that we'd use Whatsapp for daily interactions. Face to face would've been an ideal way to communicate, but because of the pandemic, this was a bit hard. Near the end of the academic year, we were able to work on campus and talk face to face, which made things a lot easier. We used Teams video calls when we weren't able to meet on campus and also to organise meetings with Bert. We'd email him whenever we needed to update him on the project.

I would definitely describe our project group as a 'high-performing team', as Horine (2017) calls it. He says that high-performing teams have a core set of traits. The first trait is clarity. Teams need to know where they are going, what they are going and how they are doing it. I think we had a very clear plan and stuck to it quite well. High-performing teams also show commitment. As a group, we all felt very responsible for this project and wanted to go the extra mile, we were definitely invested and willing to put in the time. According to Horine (2017), the team should also be professional. The members take responsibility and do the assigned work. I think that we, as a team, did handle things professionally. Of course, we would joke here and there, but when we had to get down to business we were always able to get into that mindset. Then there is synergy, the fourth trade. I think this took a while for us, but after some weeks we really started to understand what worked well and who could do what. We started to really use our talents and performed really well as a team. Lastly, there is trust. Trust is of course earned over time, but I think we got to a good level of trust quite quickly. We were honest and open, this way we were able to discuss minor problems and easily work through them. All in all, I think we did really well as a team, and I'm quite proud of us and of our work. I definitely think we showed some courage because interviewing students about a topic like this isn't easy. We focussed on a very relevant topic however and we were very persistent. Sometimes things took a while to move forward, but we never gave up. Something we could improve on might be our focus on a final product, taking more risks and being more self-aware so we could use our talents a little more than we already did.

However, there were also some creative journeys and processes this year that didn't go that well at all. An example of this is the documentary we had to make for Art Based Learning. I wanted to do this alone and my first idea was to make a satirical documentary on the Dutch pluriform society. However, I was very behind on a lot of the work and I tend to be a little impulsive and sporadic. At one point I changed my topic to menstruation because I thought it would be cool to take a taboo topic and turn it into an awesome documentary. But it wasn't easy. I'm not the most structured person, and I easily get stuck during projects because of the simple step by step process. When I think I'm stuck or can't do something, I just block all my motivation to keep going and sometimes give up quite easily. It's not unusual for people with ADHD to struggle with going through a process (Regelink, 2020). Eventually, I was so behind on all the assignments that I decided to admit that I was struggling. I think it's important to not see it as giving up. Admitting that you need help or aren't very good at something can be very hard. Bart very kindly took me under his wings and asked me to join his documentary. He was doing it on a very personal topic but needed someone to conduct research to support his work. I quite like doing research so I was very happy with the job. I found him some news articles and went through government reports for him, highlighting all the relevant information. I will say, I still very much see it as Bart's documentary. Also because he is telling a personal story. I only helped him with the research for it.

I think the beautiful thing about Bart's documentary is that he opens up to all of us to simply tell his own story. His story is not representative of all adopted kids in the world of course, but he also doesn't try to do that. He just tells his own story, while also being aware of the other perspectives out there. The documentary shows multiple sides of a very complex and heavy subject and Bart is respectful of all sides too. His documentary gives to stuff to think about. What's good or bad isn't decided, things just are the way they are, with all the experiences that come with it. He gives you space to just let it all wash over you, you can think about it, take a little while and then form your own opinion. Bart's experience with adoption is not related to the government reports on adoption, but because he still involves it in his documentary you can see that the topic is way bigger than just Bart's story. And still, it's his documentary, his story. It's storytelling in such a beautiful and cool way. Everyone can learn and grow from it.

Another assignment that didn't go too well was the final paper for VMT3 (a history course I took for 'vakinhoudelijke onderwijseenheid'). The course itself went really well. Bas, our lecturer, uses the SALT method, where you basically have an assessment every week instead of at the end of a course. This way, you keep up with the theory learned. Most students start cramming right before an exam, but all that knowledge is very easily lost because of the forgetting curve. Students cram but they never get back to it (Van der Meijden, 2021). I did really well during the weekly oral assessments. I thoroughly enjoy history and I loved Bas' lectures, but VMT3 was only worth 4 EC's, so we had to end it with a final assignment to get to the 5 EC's that we needed. Bas gave us two options, we could either write about the SALT method or write a guide to revolution, using the French Revolution as your example. I chose the latter but my planning wasn't very good. Bas even gave me an extra week, but I wasn't able to finish it. I decided to let it go and hand in my unfinished work (appendix 28) because I had to move on. I'm not very proud of it, especially because I know I can do better and really wanted to do better. We haven't gotten our feedback yet, but Bas did tell us that we passed the oral assessments. I think for me this all adds to my learning journey, some (creative) processes go really well, some not so well. But it shows me that I need to work on my planning skills and my self-discipline.

Still, I think I did fairly well this year, and it also shows in the feedback I've received. A lot of student in TC1 wanted to give each other feedback so we decided it would be a good idea to create a platform where we could do this. I made a Padlet (appendix 29) for our year where we all could give each other feedback if we wanted to. Some students didn't really feel the need to join in this, but some really enjoyed the Padlet and found it quite helpful. I definitely enjoyed reading the feedback people wrote for me.

All in all, I think we've all grown a lot this year. With our creative process, our ability to communicate and collaborate, and just as humans in general. I'm proud of us.

🎵 Riptide - Vance Joy

[realestate63141]

I'm Married To A Divorce Attorney. This Is What Our Marriage Is Like

Divorce attorneys are experts on marriage. After all, every day in their offices, they see the petty squabbles and simmering issues that can easily bring down a long-term relationship.

What have they learned from their day jobs? We recently asked family law attorneys from across the country to share how their own marriages have been affected by their jobs and clients. To get a balanced account, we asked their spouses to weigh in, too! See what they had to say below:

Karen Covy, a divorce attorney and coach in Chicago, Illinois:

“I’ve been with my husband for 10 years and married for eight. I don’t take anything for granted. I’ve seen a lot of relationships that went south just because someone stopped paying attention to them. I see a lot of small mistakes that build into big problems. I’ve learned from the pain I witness every day. I consciously work on avoiding those mistakes myself. I try not to let my professional stress bleed into my personal life and I try not to cross-examine my husband. But I’m human!” 

Her spouse, Vit Homolka:

“It really doesn’t make much difference what profession my wife is in. She’s a strong woman and I like that. It’s true that sometimes when we’re talking, she hits me with her ‘lawyer’s logic.’ Our discussions get broken down into points and sub-points with supporting evidence. When she flips into lawyer-mode, it can feel like you’re in a court room. But, I know who she is inside. Her profession is not the primary thing in our marriage.” 

Margaret Klaw, a divorce attorney in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania:

“I’ve been married for 34 years and for 30 of them, I’ve been a divorce lawyer. You might think I’d be deeply cynical about the institution of marriage. But you would be totally wrong. I, along with many of my colleagues in the family law bar, are deep appreciators of marriage. I think that is because we, more than most people, truly understand the value of family. We know it’s what gives meaning to people’s lives because we experience firsthand the depth of the pain when it doesn’t work out. And I know that has made me a better spouse and parent. I’m tolerant of small problems and differences because I am so acutely aware of the big picture, of how unimportant those differences may be when compared to the potential cataclysm of divorce. I have to admit, though, that I’ve heard this from my husband more than once during an argument: ‘Stop cross examining me!’ But really, if that’s all he has to complain about, he has no idea how good he has it.”

Her spouse, Alan Metcalfe:

“I may have just a few more complaints but I share my attorney wife’s perspective on marriage. I also love hearing about how badly couples behave (no names, of course!) in court, marvel at how generous her clients can occasionally be with their estranged spouses in the name of their children, and often think how lucky I am to be in a solid marriage. I also know that I would be screwed if I tried to divorce her because she is the only person I would want to represent me in court.” 

Alison Patton, a divorce attorney and mediator in La Jolla, California:

“You would think that with all I’ve seen and learned through the years, I’d be great at marriage and not make the same mistakes divorcing clients have made. Not always the case. For years, John’s common line to me when we were having a marital spat was, ‘Can’t you just use your mediator skills for a goddamned minute and try to understand my perspective?!? And stop interrupting me!’ What I’ve learned from being in this profession is we all make the same mistakes in marriage. Some of us are just lucky enough to have the marriage survive until we figure it out. I think we made it through the rocky stretches because John is as strong a person as I am. He’s an attorney too and he held his ground. Even when we were furious with one another, we never lost mutual respect. I’d be lost without him.”

Her spouse, John Thickstun:

“I’d been divorced for about a year when Alison and I met and started dating. I proposed a few months later. My friends asked me, why are you getting married again? And to a family law attorney!? So I explained, ‘This will guarantee that it will last. It has to!’ All kidding aside, divorce attorneys are participants in the end of a chapter -– the death of a relationship. But if they’re like Alison, they are also witness to the beginning of a new chapter -– a rebirth of sorts. Guiding people through the divorce process creates wisdom if you’re open and paying attention. Alison pays attention. She brings the wisdom she’s learned to our relationship. I love her more today than the day we were married over 18 years ago.” 

Christian Denmon, a divorce attorney in Tampa, Florida:

“Our situation is a little different: I’m a full-time divorce attorney. My wife does divorce work, but it is a minority of her practice. We apply what we learn from our practices to our relationship and it helps steer us on the right track. And I think, as we transition from what divorce lawyers call a short-term marriage to a medium-length marriage (we have been married seven years), we are still on strong footing. Much of it is thanks to her!” 

His spouse, Nicole Denmon:

“My husband listens more to other women’s problems than mine. The emergency phone calls at night and on the weekends used to bother me. I used to ask lots of questions as to why a female client needed to talk to him so badly at 7:30 p.m. on a Saturday night. But then I listened to his conversations. Some were true emergencies and others were him just be an attentive lawyer who knew when that his client needed to talk and needed advice right then. Although it did not constitute an emergency to him or me, the person on the other line truly believed that it was. I have come to learn that a good divorce attorney must be attentive and on call if a client needs to speak with them. I know that my husband does not always want to return a phone call, but he puts himself in the position of his client that is experiencing one of the most traumatic experiences one can go through: divorce.”

Nancy R. Van Tine, a divorce attorney in Boston, Massachusetts:

“Stu talked me into going to law school while he was studying for the bar exam. Four years later we started our own firm. I didn’t choose family law. I backed into it. I was the only female lawyer in my location when we hung out our shingle, and the divorce clients came as a result. And they kept coming, and I loved doing it. Stu and I worked as a team. He did a lot of my legal research and all my appellate writing in the early years. We’d discuss strategy, law and the clients all the time. I think we were more careful of each other in our marriage as a result. Marriage and divorce law have been a fun partnership.”

Her spouse, Stuart Van Tine:

“Yep, I’ve been married to a divorce lawyer for 52 years. She wasn’t a lawyer for the first 14. I’d been an attorney for five years when she was sworn in and we opened our own shop. We later joined a larger firm together; I retired, she’s still there. For us, practicing law together was fun. My end was stodgy bank and real estate work. Her practice seemed to bring new and amazing bits of insanity every day. What I remember most is her ability to keep her composure where very few people could, like laughing along with our staff at the death threat left on our answering machine or the court battle over custody of a stuffed parrot. Those were happy days.”

Katherine Eisold Miller, a divorce attorney in New Rochelle, New York: 

“Divorce lawyers hear some pretty crazy stories and we know what destroys relationships. Knowing what destroys them gives us a window into how to nurture and preserve our partnerships. On the other hand, we also know how to protect ourselves and our assets and that could be pretty scary if things weren’t going so well.”

Her spouse, Richard Heller:

“I’ve been married to a divorce attorney for 18 years. From the beginning I needed clear boundaries between work and relationship ― and no prenup. Prenups look to me like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you’re planning the way out when you have not even begun while to my attorney bride, it just made sense to get clear on financial boundaries. Keeping communications from becoming ‘litigious’ is an ongoing practice for both of us. I often joke that ‘I’m married to a divorce lawyer, I don’t mess with her,’ but I actually find my spouse appreciates what an amazing marriage we have because she has seen so many marriages that were less than that. She works long hours and I miss her terribly, but our time together is always sweet.”

Daniel E. Clement, a divorce attorney in New York City:

“As a divorce attorney, my problem is not making my clients’ issues mine. While I am sympathetic, I have to remain detached to keep my objectivity and maintain my sanity. I certainly don’t want to bring their problems home with me. That said, I can use my client’s issues as life lessons. I can identify the mistakes they made in their relationships, in raising their children, in their decision making, and consciously modify my behavior so as not to follow them. I do not want to be someone’s divorce client.” 

His spouse, Michelle Schwartz Clement:

“Most of the time, Dan seems immune to the stresses of the day. Yes, there are days he brings it home, but what successful professional doesn’t do so?”

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[repwinpril9y0a1]

I'm Married To A Divorce Attorney. This Is What Our Marriage Is Like

Divorce attorneys are experts on marriage. After all, every day in their offices, they see the petty squabbles and simmering issues that can easily bring down a long-term relationship.

What have they learned from their day jobs? We recently asked family law attorneys from across the country to share how their own marriages have been affected by their jobs and clients. To get a balanced account, we asked their spouses to weigh in, too! See what they had to say below:

Karen Covy, a divorce attorney and coach in Chicago, Illinois:

“I’ve been with my husband for 10 years and married for eight. I don’t take anything for granted. I’ve seen a lot of relationships that went south just because someone stopped paying attention to them. I see a lot of small mistakes that build into big problems. I’ve learned from the pain I witness every day. I consciously work on avoiding those mistakes myself. I try not to let my professional stress bleed into my personal life and I try not to cross-examine my husband. But I’m human!” 

Her spouse, Vit Homolka:

“It really doesn’t make much difference what profession my wife is in. She’s a strong woman and I like that. It’s true that sometimes when we’re talking, she hits me with her ‘lawyer’s logic.’ Our discussions get broken down into points and sub-points with supporting evidence. When she flips into lawyer-mode, it can feel like you’re in a court room. But, I know who she is inside. Her profession is not the primary thing in our marriage.” 

Margaret Klaw, a divorce attorney in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania:

“I’ve been married for 34 years and for 30 of them, I’ve been a divorce lawyer. You might think I’d be deeply cynical about the institution of marriage. But you would be totally wrong. I, along with many of my colleagues in the family law bar, are deep appreciators of marriage. I think that is because we, more than most people, truly understand the value of family. We know it’s what gives meaning to people’s lives because we experience firsthand the depth of the pain when it doesn’t work out. And I know that has made me a better spouse and parent. I’m tolerant of small problems and differences because I am so acutely aware of the big picture, of how unimportant those differences may be when compared to the potential cataclysm of divorce. I have to admit, though, that I’ve heard this from my husband more than once during an argument: ‘Stop cross examining me!’ But really, if that’s all he has to complain about, he has no idea how good he has it.”

Her spouse, Alan Metcalfe:

“I may have just a few more complaints but I share my attorney wife’s perspective on marriage. I also love hearing about how badly couples behave (no names, of course!) in court, marvel at how generous her clients can occasionally be with their estranged spouses in the name of their children, and often think how lucky I am to be in a solid marriage. I also know that I would be screwed if I tried to divorce her because she is the only person I would want to represent me in court.” 

Alison Patton, a divorce attorney and mediator in La Jolla, California:

“You would think that with all I’ve seen and learned through the years, I’d be great at marriage and not make the same mistakes divorcing clients have made. Not always the case. For years, John’s common line to me when we were having a marital spat was, ‘Can’t you just use your mediator skills for a goddamned minute and try to understand my perspective?!? And stop interrupting me!’ What I’ve learned from being in this profession is we all make the same mistakes in marriage. Some of us are just lucky enough to have the marriage survive until we figure it out. I think we made it through the rocky stretches because John is as strong a person as I am. He’s an attorney too and he held his ground. Even when we were furious with one another, we never lost mutual respect. I’d be lost without him.”

Her spouse, John Thickstun:

“I’d been divorced for about a year when Alison and I met and started dating. I proposed a few months later. My friends asked me, why are you getting married again? And to a family law attorney!? So I explained, ‘This will guarantee that it will last. It has to!’ All kidding aside, divorce attorneys are participants in the end of a chapter -– the death of a relationship. But if they’re like Alison, they are also witness to the beginning of a new chapter -– a rebirth of sorts. Guiding people through the divorce process creates wisdom if you’re open and paying attention. Alison pays attention. She brings the wisdom she’s learned to our relationship. I love her more today than the day we were married over 18 years ago.” 

Christian Denmon, a divorce attorney in Tampa, Florida:

“Our situation is a little different: I’m a full-time divorce attorney. My wife does divorce work, but it is a minority of her practice. We apply what we learn from our practices to our relationship and it helps steer us on the right track. And I think, as we transition from what divorce lawyers call a short-term marriage to a medium-length marriage (we have been married seven years), we are still on strong footing. Much of it is thanks to her!” 

His spouse, Nicole Denmon:

“My husband listens more to other women’s problems than mine. The emergency phone calls at night and on the weekends used to bother me. I used to ask lots of questions as to why a female client needed to talk to him so badly at 7:30 p.m. on a Saturday night. But then I listened to his conversations. Some were true emergencies and others were him just be an attentive lawyer who knew when that his client needed to talk and needed advice right then. Although it did not constitute an emergency to him or me, the person on the other line truly believed that it was. I have come to learn that a good divorce attorney must be attentive and on call if a client needs to speak with them. I know that my husband does not always want to return a phone call, but he puts himself in the position of his client that is experiencing one of the most traumatic experiences one can go through: divorce.”

Nancy R. Van Tine, a divorce attorney in Boston, Massachusetts:

“Stu talked me into going to law school while he was studying for the bar exam. Four years later we started our own firm. I didn’t choose family law. I backed into it. I was the only female lawyer in my location when we hung out our shingle, and the divorce clients came as a result. And they kept coming, and I loved doing it. Stu and I worked as a team. He did a lot of my legal research and all my appellate writing in the early years. We’d discuss strategy, law and the clients all the time. I think we were more careful of each other in our marriage as a result. Marriage and divorce law have been a fun partnership.”

Her spouse, Stuart Van Tine:

“Yep, I’ve been married to a divorce lawyer for 52 years. She wasn’t a lawyer for the first 14. I’d been an attorney for five years when she was sworn in and we opened our own shop. We later joined a larger firm together; I retired, she’s still there. For us, practicing law together was fun. My end was stodgy bank and real estate work. Her practice seemed to bring new and amazing bits of insanity every day. What I remember most is her ability to keep her composure where very few people could, like laughing along with our staff at the death threat left on our answering machine or the court battle over custody of a stuffed parrot. Those were happy days.”

Katherine Eisold Miller, a divorce attorney in New Rochelle, New York: 

“Divorce lawyers hear some pretty crazy stories and we know what destroys relationships. Knowing what destroys them gives us a window into how to nurture and preserve our partnerships. On the other hand, we also know how to protect ourselves and our assets and that could be pretty scary if things weren’t going so well.”

Her spouse, Richard Heller:

“I’ve been married to a divorce attorney for 18 years. From the beginning I needed clear boundaries between work and relationship ― and no prenup. Prenups look to me like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you’re planning the way out when you have not even begun while to my attorney bride, it just made sense to get clear on financial boundaries. Keeping communications from becoming ‘litigious’ is an ongoing practice for both of us. I often joke that ‘I’m married to a divorce lawyer, I don’t mess with her,’ but I actually find my spouse appreciates what an amazing marriage we have because she has seen so many marriages that were less than that. She works long hours and I miss her terribly, but our time together is always sweet.”

Daniel E. Clement, a divorce attorney in New York City:

“As a divorce attorney, my problem is not making my clients’ issues mine. While I am sympathetic, I have to remain detached to keep my objectivity and maintain my sanity. I certainly don’t want to bring their problems home with me. That said, I can use my client’s issues as life lessons. I can identify the mistakes they made in their relationships, in raising their children, in their decision making, and consciously modify my behavior so as not to follow them. I do not want to be someone’s divorce client.” 

His spouse, Michelle Schwartz Clement:

“Most of the time, Dan seems immune to the stresses of the day. Yes, there are days he brings it home, but what successful professional doesn’t do so?”

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I'm Married To A Divorce Attorney. This Is What Our Marriage Is Like

Divorce attorneys are experts on marriage. After all, every day in their offices, they see the petty squabbles and simmering issues that can easily bring down a long-term relationship.

What have they learned from their day jobs? We recently asked family law attorneys from across the country to share how their own marriages have been affected by their jobs and clients. To get a balanced account, we asked their spouses to weigh in, too! See what they had to say below:

Karen Covy, a divorce attorney and coach in Chicago, Illinois:

“I’ve been with my husband for 10 years and married for eight. I don’t take anything for granted. I’ve seen a lot of relationships that went south just because someone stopped paying attention to them. I see a lot of small mistakes that build into big problems. I’ve learned from the pain I witness every day. I consciously work on avoiding those mistakes myself. I try not to let my professional stress bleed into my personal life and I try not to cross-examine my husband. But I’m human!” 

Her spouse, Vit Homolka:

“It really doesn’t make much difference what profession my wife is in. She’s a strong woman and I like that. It’s true that sometimes when we’re talking, she hits me with her ‘lawyer’s logic.’ Our discussions get broken down into points and sub-points with supporting evidence. When she flips into lawyer-mode, it can feel like you’re in a court room. But, I know who she is inside. Her profession is not the primary thing in our marriage.” 

Margaret Klaw, a divorce attorney in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania:

“I’ve been married for 34 years and for 30 of them, I’ve been a divorce lawyer. You might think I’d be deeply cynical about the institution of marriage. But you would be totally wrong. I, along with many of my colleagues in the family law bar, are deep appreciators of marriage. I think that is because we, more than most people, truly understand the value of family. We know it’s what gives meaning to people’s lives because we experience firsthand the depth of the pain when it doesn’t work out. And I know that has made me a better spouse and parent. I’m tolerant of small problems and differences because I am so acutely aware of the big picture, of how unimportant those differences may be when compared to the potential cataclysm of divorce. I have to admit, though, that I’ve heard this from my husband more than once during an argument: ‘Stop cross examining me!’ But really, if that’s all he has to complain about, he has no idea how good he has it.”

Her spouse, Alan Metcalfe:

“I may have just a few more complaints but I share my attorney wife’s perspective on marriage. I also love hearing about how badly couples behave (no names, of course!) in court, marvel at how generous her clients can occasionally be with their estranged spouses in the name of their children, and often think how lucky I am to be in a solid marriage. I also know that I would be screwed if I tried to divorce her because she is the only person I would want to represent me in court.” 

Alison Patton, a divorce attorney and mediator in La Jolla, California:

“You would think that with all I’ve seen and learned through the years, I’d be great at marriage and not make the same mistakes divorcing clients have made. Not always the case. For years, John’s common line to me when we were having a marital spat was, ‘Can’t you just use your mediator skills for a goddamned minute and try to understand my perspective?!? And stop interrupting me!’ What I’ve learned from being in this profession is we all make the same mistakes in marriage. Some of us are just lucky enough to have the marriage survive until we figure it out. I think we made it through the rocky stretches because John is as strong a person as I am. He’s an attorney too and he held his ground. Even when we were furious with one another, we never lost mutual respect. I’d be lost without him.”

Her spouse, John Thickstun:

“I’d been divorced for about a year when Alison and I met and started dating. I proposed a few months later. My friends asked me, why are you getting married again? And to a family law attorney!? So I explained, ‘This will guarantee that it will last. It has to!’ All kidding aside, divorce attorneys are participants in the end of a chapter -– the death of a relationship. But if they’re like Alison, they are also witness to the beginning of a new chapter -– a rebirth of sorts. Guiding people through the divorce process creates wisdom if you’re open and paying attention. Alison pays attention. She brings the wisdom she’s learned to our relationship. I love her more today than the day we were married over 18 years ago.” 

Christian Denmon, a divorce attorney in Tampa, Florida:

“Our situation is a little different: I’m a full-time divorce attorney. My wife does divorce work, but it is a minority of her practice. We apply what we learn from our practices to our relationship and it helps steer us on the right track. And I think, as we transition from what divorce lawyers call a short-term marriage to a medium-length marriage (we have been married seven years), we are still on strong footing. Much of it is thanks to her!” 

His spouse, Nicole Denmon:

“My husband listens more to other women’s problems than mine. The emergency phone calls at night and on the weekends used to bother me. I used to ask lots of questions as to why a female client needed to talk to him so badly at 7:30 p.m. on a Saturday night. But then I listened to his conversations. Some were true emergencies and others were him just be an attentive lawyer who knew when that his client needed to talk and needed advice right then. Although it did not constitute an emergency to him or me, the person on the other line truly believed that it was. I have come to learn that a good divorce attorney must be attentive and on call if a client needs to speak with them. I know that my husband does not always want to return a phone call, but he puts himself in the position of his client that is experiencing one of the most traumatic experiences one can go through: divorce.”

Nancy R. Van Tine, a divorce attorney in Boston, Massachusetts:

“Stu talked me into going to law school while he was studying for the bar exam. Four years later we started our own firm. I didn’t choose family law. I backed into it. I was the only female lawyer in my location when we hung out our shingle, and the divorce clients came as a result. And they kept coming, and I loved doing it. Stu and I worked as a team. He did a lot of my legal research and all my appellate writing in the early years. We’d discuss strategy, law and the clients all the time. I think we were more careful of each other in our marriage as a result. Marriage and divorce law have been a fun partnership.”

Her spouse, Stuart Van Tine:

“Yep, I’ve been married to a divorce lawyer for 52 years. She wasn’t a lawyer for the first 14. I’d been an attorney for five years when she was sworn in and we opened our own shop. We later joined a larger firm together; I retired, she’s still there. For us, practicing law together was fun. My end was stodgy bank and real estate work. Her practice seemed to bring new and amazing bits of insanity every day. What I remember most is her ability to keep her composure where very few people could, like laughing along with our staff at the death threat left on our answering machine or the court battle over custody of a stuffed parrot. Those were happy days.”

Katherine Eisold Miller, a divorce attorney in New Rochelle, New York: 

“Divorce lawyers hear some pretty crazy stories and we know what destroys relationships. Knowing what destroys them gives us a window into how to nurture and preserve our partnerships. On the other hand, we also know how to protect ourselves and our assets and that could be pretty scary if things weren’t going so well.”

Her spouse, Richard Heller:

“I’ve been married to a divorce attorney for 18 years. From the beginning I needed clear boundaries between work and relationship ― and no prenup. Prenups look to me like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you’re planning the way out when you have not even begun while to my attorney bride, it just made sense to get clear on financial boundaries. Keeping communications from becoming ‘litigious’ is an ongoing practice for both of us. I often joke that ‘I’m married to a divorce lawyer, I don’t mess with her,’ but I actually find my spouse appreciates what an amazing marriage we have because she has seen so many marriages that were less than that. She works long hours and I miss her terribly, but our time together is always sweet.”

Daniel E. Clement, a divorce attorney in New York City:

“As a divorce attorney, my problem is not making my clients’ issues mine. While I am sympathetic, I have to remain detached to keep my objectivity and maintain my sanity. I certainly don’t want to bring their problems home with me. That said, I can use my client’s issues as life lessons. I can identify the mistakes they made in their relationships, in raising their children, in their decision making, and consciously modify my behavior so as not to follow them. I do not want to be someone’s divorce client.” 

His spouse, Michelle Schwartz Clement:

“Most of the time, Dan seems immune to the stresses of the day. Yes, there are days he brings it home, but what successful professional doesn’t do so?”

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