#I’d be so willing to yap about it Im so normal about them

[sammygender]

hi.. erm im back (anon from the last 2 asks) (im too scared to un-anon sorry) i want to ask (another) genuine question abt wincest because ur the nicest person ive ever met who's willing to talk abt it from both sides.

i guess i just don't get why people ship wincest? background: im aromantic and have a hard time understanding certain shippy stuff, but i do notice alot of arophobic statements in regards to the evidence given as to why people ship. ex: a lot of "brothers don't look at each other like that." type things. (which i know is not wincest exclusive and is often used by destiel shippers too)

also i notice alot of people being quite amatonormative (definition: the assumption that all human beings pursue love or romance.) so it's hard to even take wincest shippers seriously when all their evidence tends to be perpetuating arophobic sentiments and stuff.

we can all agree that their relationship is seriously unhealthy. but i just have a hard time with it being even borderline incestuous. i also really like the idea of relationship anarchy (definition: relationships within this structure are fluid, and therefore have no solid differentiation between sexual, romantic, or platonic relationships.) so to me it's like. well it's platonic because they say it is? only the people within a relationship can determine what that relationship is and they have?

anyways i know im throwing a lot of words and definitions at you. you're just extremely helpful to talk to and i like what you have to say, so id be extremely interested in your opinions about this.

hi anon!!! im so sorry i literally yapped like crazy in response to this. had no idea i was capable of this much thought on this topic. everything is under the read more

TLDR for the TLDR: for me the 'borderline incestuous' nature of their relationship isnt actually the way they act with each other cause i do think boundaries of romantic/platonic r weird and fake (tho by normal 'societal standards' sam and dean r strange). its more the framing of it by the narrative and genre conventions of spn as a horror. i think. <3

everything im abt to say has been written on at length by much smarter people than me - if ur interested i probably have reblogged other peoples posts on similar topics and tagged them somewhere under #poison in the water and maybe #she walked in on us. i am SO sorry for the mountain of yap you have unleashed.

before i rly start, re: talking abt the concept of wincest from different angles/sides - its honestly so totally beyond me why people dont actually DISCUSS this stuff more. ofc wincest shippers are sometimes obnoxious when they go ‘NORMAL BROTHERS DON’T ACT LIKE THIS!!!’ over anything (like i personally don’t like the whole ‘sam and dean are OBVIOUSLY in love because they bring each other back from the dead!!’ thing. like why is that romantic. i’d try my hardest to bring my siblings back from the dead too.) but like u said pretty much all shippers do that. i think people are (UNDERSTANDABLY) squicked out by the idea of incest, even fictional, and have an immediate kneejerk reaction when people ‘corrupt’ their favorite characters by talking abt it in relation to them. and i completely understand just not wanting to engage with readings you find uncomfortable or odd!! TV can just be escapism there’s nothing wrong with that!! but i tend to find immediate negative reactions against anything that even ACKNOWLEDGES the incestuous subtext in spn uncharitable and annoying. for one, incest is a real thing that happens and its not shipping goggles or creep behavior to look at fiction through the lens of it, just as its not whatsoever unreasonable to look at, for example, the azazel demon blood storyline as a CSA allegory (again of course all this is real heavy and just one interpretation and absolutely no hate for fans who like… just don’t want to think like this <3). for two, i do think there is an undercurrent of it written into supernatural with intentionality to further the themes of familial horror.

so to kind of…. explain i guess… why i say i can see canonical backing for sam and dean’s relationship as incestuous or incestuous-adjacent (lol), i have to go back to the general incest subtext in supernatural as a whole, from a completely academic-interest and not at all shippy way. like i said ofc SPN is primarily a show about FAMILY HORROR - ‘family is hell’, to quote eric kripke in the pilot commentary. or at least this is how i view it; a lot of destiel fans, for example, tend to see it more as…. idk really, i don’t claim to have much contact with them, but certainly not usually a horror. an action-adventure. a western. a story about a Tragic American Hero (sorry im being tongue in cheek and bitchy). i think viewing the show with a sam-focused lens tends to make you view it as horror for… a lot of reasons which i won’t get into here. but i PERSONALLY - getting off track here, sorry - view it as horror. that’s what he originally intended, and it’s what supernatural is most successful at doing. and incest in horror, especially gothic horror, especially gothic horror about the family and the home, is well-trodden territory (where’s my essay from last term about incest in wuthering heights where i somehow ended up, while researching, on an essay about wincest itself). - and supernatural is full of allusions to it. azazel’s silhouette in the pilot as intentionally strikingly similar to john’s, when he first feeds sam demon blood (framed as a CSA allegory, whether intentional or not). then azazel actually possessing john later. mary making the deal that dooms her family for years after via kissing her father on the mouth. hunting portrayed as something abnormal, irregular, taboo in direct opposition to a ‘normal family’ (tho abuse also comes from the nuclear family etc etc). then you can look at sam and dean specifically….

from the pilot, you have the woman in white telling sam, who has just left to go on a roadtrip with his brother, that he’s about to be unfaithful to jess; even if this could technically be said to be about the fact she then attempts to assault him (tho that doesn’t really fit with woman in white lore?? she goes after people who have already cheated…), it’s still portraying jess and dean as innately in opposition, just as jess has to die in order for sam to join dean. all the loaded lines about ‘the way they were raised’ - dean telling sam he can’t escape it. supernatural is clear: the rot is IN the family.

OF COURSE all of this can equally just be about familial abuse!! and IS about familial abuse!! but the way the story unfolds DOES position sam and dean in…. shall we say Roles. sam is the feminised ‘bitch’ to dean’s ‘jerk’; they’re mistaken for a couple in 1x08, in 1x18, in 2x16, in s8; they’re compared to bonnie and clyde, to mallory and mickey, serial killer lover duos. crowley tells dean, ‘you’re lying to sam like he’s your wife’. dean says, at a later opportunity, ‘what about sam? does he want a divorce?’. an ANGEL tells their HALF BROTHER that sam and dean are ‘psychotically, irrationally, EROTICALLY codependent’. dean himself is unable to name what’s between them, explicitly saying ‘love, family, whatever it is’ (which is just SUCH an odd line. Like it’s love and family between you two Dean is it not??? Why are you acting like neither of those words describe it???). then there’s the way jensen and jared act it, their physicality, eg. sam looking genuinely like he’s about to pull dean in for a kiss during playthings 2x16… i also find the whole ‘brothers don’t look at each other like that!!’ annoying, but tbh, they do give each other wild looks sometimes. the end of wendigo sticks out to me whenever i watch it as a genuine ‘why is jared/sam looking at jensen/dean like that… what possessed him…’.

wait another addition - when i first wrote this i also totally forgot about 4x14 sex and violence, which iirc has dean’s siren, originally described only in terms of sex/romance, literally telling him ‘i should be your little brother’. of course the concept of a siren that isn’t really about sex or even romance is really interesting and one valid reading - and also lends itself to a reading of dean as aro which i rly like. but i don’t think that reading is any more or less valid than the more obvious one. (irrelevant side bar but there’s a 2003 sociology book about sibling incest that i read for an essay on wuthering heights called ‘Siblings: Sex and Violence and that makes me go ??? every time i think about the episode. Literally what. That has to be a coincidence. But??)

i think in regards to why people ‘ship’ wincest, a lot of it is of course just that they just kind of See It, for whatever reason. whether it’s the thematic (which i talked on at length already sorry <3) or just the way they look at each other or just because jared and jensen are hot or just because they think it’s really interesting to explore an added dimension to sam and dean’s already messed up relationship. same with destiel, same with sastiel, same with whatever, like u said. shipping culture in general IS hugely amatonormative - people love to declare wide statements about what people who are In Love do and don’t do, which are always silly and shallow. partly why i don’t really consider myself as someone who ships things in general.

i also totally agree w u that only people within a relationship can determine what that relationship is. im not aro but i also really like the concept of relationship anarchy. however, when i see the incestuous subtext between sam and dean, it’s more in a media studies way than in a way of analysing their actual Relationship (though to be fair i’m not a wincest shipper); eg. asking the question why is their relationship portrayed ‘like that’, and what does that say about the themes of spn itself. also it is just an interesting concept to a lot of people.

TLDR the reason i can view sam and dean’s relationship as borderline incestuous isn’t due to their codependency, or dean’s intense possessiveness, or how close they are, or because they spend all of their time together, or because they’ve brought each other back from the dead multiple times and get suicidal without each other. this is even though in our society all that together IS often coded as romantic/sexual and is definitely acknowledged in that lens by the writers (hence constant comparison of them to married couples) - because it could also just as equally be completely platonic and completely insane and the result of the world’s worst trauma bond (the latter which it CERTAINLY is <3). when i talk abt canonical backing for their relationship as borderline incestuous, it’s more about the narrative framing and context surrounding it. at the very least, their relationship is ‘abnormal’, deviant (meant in the most literal meaning as an digression from social norms); different from accepted ‘sibling relationships’, pointed out by the characters around them. <- none of this makes any sense but its 3am and im on tumblr so its ok.

feel free to dm also if u want to or just send an ask back!! and also ofc feel free to argue with/disagree with me in any way u like. or ask wtf i mean by anything cause i talk too much. tbh from what u say it sounds like u just don’t really vibe with shipping culture in general (might be an assumption sorry if so) which i totally understand/agree w. but i hope i answered ur question in some way somehow

[raindrenchedstories]

After the sad

Remember that REALLY sad story? Ye....Here’s a continuation!

Cleaning out Richters old cage was just as hard as losing him. It was a part of him, in a way. And now his things were being packed up, and placed in a little box, left in the closet. Bear had to take a few cry breaks here and there.

Even though Archibald offered to help, Bear had told him it was just too hard to watch someone else do it. He was brushing off one of the pillows to be cleaned when something small and white fell out. A tiny letter.

Bear lifted this, running a hand over it. He took it to the story table and set it under the reading spell.  An image flickered up, that made Bear tear up. Richter sat in front of it smiling. A younger version of himself. The way Bear remembered him. Bright and cheerful. He shifted a few times, and spoke.

“Dear Bear. I feel like my time is coming soon. I’ve been more weary these days. It’s a struggle to even get out of bed some mornings.” The image grew older. As the realization that Richter wrote this only a short while ago dawned on Bear. “I’m not going to say ‘don’t cry’. In my opinion that’s the most selfish thing anyone can tell a loved one. Cry as much as you need to. But keep in mind. I was always happy in your care.”

The elderly Richter folded his hands smiling. “I think that’s why I kept going for so long. Because before meeting you, I didn’t have such a great life. It’s nice to have a reason to smile everyday. I’ve always tried to be the happiest thing in your life because of that. But I’m old, Bear. And I’m willing to bet bet that by the time you read this. I’ll be gone. OR you’re just cleanin’ the cage. And this fell out.” The image laughed.

“This... Kind of brings me to my... will of sorts. I haven’t anything to offer. To pass on to a loved one. If Neil’s still kickin’ around. Tell him he’s an asshole. But he was always a dear friend.” The old face just grinned madly.

“But before I get too sidetracked. Lord knows I will. Getting so old these days.” He seamed to drift off. “When you’re done grieving. When you feel ready. Take someone else in. I don’t want you to be alone. If you have it in you. Take someone who’s had the hardest time in life. The person no one wants. Take the one who looks like he had it the hardest. Because that’s what you did for me.” He smiled.

“I won’t hold it against you though. If you can’t. But... Don’t be alone. Okay?”

Bear just dropped to his knees. Eyes welling up a bit. “Oh! There’s a second letter around there too. That’s for whoever you take home. You can have Neil read it, if you like. But please, keep it around.”

Bear smiled. Laughing bitterly. “Did you EVER think about yourself?” Bear found the other letter, and stuffed it in his pocket. 

He visited Archibald a few days after, and let him see the letter. Spotting Neil with the grandchildren. Unlike Richter. Neil had chosen to take on a mate. And have a family. Which also had a family. It got to the point  where Archibald had tunnels running along his walls for a tiny community he was apparently raising.

Neil gave the giant a kindly smile. Presenting the new grandbaby for inspection by the giant. “I... I hope you don’t mind.” The mother squeaked in. “We named him after... HIM.” Everyone shuffled awkwardly.

Oddly, the baby kind of resembled Richter now. Bear just smiled. “That’s fine. He was your pa’s best friend after all. Hope you don’t mind if I call ‘im little R though.”

“Oh! Oh yes. That’s fine.” The baby was passed back. “Speaking of Richter... Er. Big R. He left you a message Neil.

“I’m an asshole?”

“You’re an asshole.”

Archibald chimed in with a; “Tell us something we DON’T know.” The three shared a laugh. Archibald leaned in with a little sigh.

“So... What are you here for?” He passed Bear a fresh cup of tea smiling.

“I’m carrying out his will.” Everyone froze a moment. The woman giving a little cough.

“Are you sure it isn’t too soon?”

“If I live alone much longer, it’ll be too late. I miss him. Gods do I miss him. But he wanted this so... So I’m heading down to the shelter. Would you like to come along Arch?”

Archibald slung back his tea at an alarming rate. “Sure. Let me get my coat.”

The shelter was rather empty. Not many humans returned after being adopted. Not many needed to. The happy house shelter screened the owners heavily enough that both Bear and Archibald had the moral equivalent of a criminal records check. As well as a few actual criminal record checks. Oh, and a few doctors checks as well.

It was worth it. Once you passed those, you were in the system, and could adopt at any time. They checked in, and were led to the back.

One or two men and woman had been shy. But to Bears knowledge, that was normal. And many of them were social enough to talk with him. One woman even excitedly yapped at him for perhaps an hour. In reality it was only a few minutes. But it felt like an hour. “I’m sorry sweetie. You’re a bright girl, very sweet. But Well...”

He shuffled, heart breaking at the crestfallen look in her eyes. “My last pet left me instructions in his will. I’m sorry hun. Otherwise I’d take you home in a heartbeat.”

She perked up a little, smiling sadly. “Oh. What where the instructions? Maybe I can help.” 

“Thank you. He told me to find the one who looks like he or she needs the home. Like they’ve never had a happy day in their lives.” Bear looked around, trying to spot anyone matching the description. The girl motioned for him to come closer.

“Otis. The one in 3B. There’s no way he’ll get a loving home otherwise. He’s... Not great with giants. Or anyone really.” She spoke softly. Bear smiled a moment.

“Thank you.”

Approaching Otis was an ordeal in and out of it’s self. Both men went wide eyed with the colorful language he used. Apparently worse then Neil. Threatening plausible things even.

That said, Otis kept ducking further and further back. Flattening himself against the wall. Bear heaved a sigh. Then nodded. “Yep. Him.”

Otis’ voice raised in pitch. “NO! NO NOT HIM! JUST LEAVE ME BE!” He attempted to duck into the privacy of the ‘restroom’. Bear just shook his head. Watching as the man smashed his face against the door.

He spoke with the lady at the counter. And waited out front. There was a series of screams, loud enough to get through even giant walls. Both men leaned back. Archibald leaning closer to Bear. “Are... Are you sure about this?”

“It was Richters last wish. I don’t care if Otis hates me all his life. I only care that he’s in a good place.” The box was shoved into Bear. The lady behind the counter, shaken up and bedraggled.

Her hand badly scratched, bit, and bruised. “I wish you luck sir. You’re a damned saint for even attempting.” She growled. Otis could still be heard inside the oddly reinforced box. Pulling what cardboard there was away.

“What’s this guy’s history anyhow?” Archibald eyed the screaming bundle.

“Simply put. He was used in an illegal fighting ring. When he wasn’t fighting he was... well. Let’s just say he doesn’t trust giants OR humans. Or anything else for that matter.” The woman blinked at the box.

Letting humans duke it out was actually legal. A pet could uphold their masters honor when it came to dealing with smaller people. But the fights were NEVER deadly. Never allowed to wound or cripple. Never for the sheer sake of blood sport. The worst you could leave was a bruise.

Illegal fighting rings would pit humans and other pet beings against each other to the death. If not one another, then an animal like a Chimera or manticore. People who survived long enough, were bred and retired. Which meant even humans owned by the same person, would turn on one another, just to survive.

“Right. He’s perfect then.”

“NO I’M NOT!”