#I would argue that Cringe comes from the sympathetic recognition that someone is doing something they shouldn't & how you would feel

[adickaboutspoons]

Mostly I was responding to the points raised in @scarrletmoon's response, but you raise some excellent points to which I'd like to respond. Feel free to ignore if you're tired of my bullshit. I completely understand the impulse. 1st, you're absolutely right; I was coming across as gate-keepery by saying that I find Stede's eccentricities charming as though that ought be the default experience. For that I apologize. I ought to have taken more care. When I said "And that's valid, but I would say that those are the parts that the crew and Ed grow to love once they embrace those parts of him instead of cringing at them" what I meant to convey is that the experience of 2nd-hand embarrassment when Stede does something that recalls to the viewer times when they have felt ashamed/were made to feel shame because of something they did is absolutely understandable, but we can take heart in Stede being accepted & loved for those parts of him, & find hope that so too may we be embraced for our own quirks & foibles. My intention was to encourage others to be more gentle with & accepting of their own perceived failings, but I can see now that I failed to adequately express that, & for that I am sorry. I do take issue with the suggestion that I am strawmanning, though; I would argue that how one views Stede's motivation & framing absolutely informs the extent to which/moments in which one finds his behavior cringe-worthy. In your original post, you contend Stede is "pretending to be this macho pirate captain who totally knows what he's doing" & your response above adds he's a bad manager & a jerk because he's praising himself & chiding his employees, whom you interpret as him treating as stand-ins for his own children. If that's how you're framing the scenario, then, sure - I can see how his behavior comes across as cringe to you. But that's not at all how I perceived it. I will grant he is pretending more expertise than he actually possesses, but he IS a pirate captain, & as to the attribution of "macho" I absolutely disagree, specifically because he is textually interested in a form of piracy that is not that. Because that is my understanding of the scene, in the debrief scene I see a person excited at the success of what, if Black Pete is to be believed, is their very 1st raid, & doesn't understand why everyone else wasn't also chuffed. He then listens to Wee John' criticism & encourages him to clarify WHY he feels the way he does. When Wee John identifies the lack of a flag as a contributing factor to his disgruntlement, Stede provides materials so they can rectify the deficit. This isn't Stede forcing arts & crafts on these grown-ass men (& Jim) - it's Stede hearing a problem & supplying the means to a solution. Similarly, he hears out Buttons about the crew's dissatisfaction, & tries to rectify it by finding a more appealing target for a raid, even though he obviously feels unequal to the task himself. To me, that's the complete opposite of a bad manager (to me he's a bad manager when he's being dismissive of the crew's input, like the fuckery brainstorming, & even then he climbs down from his high horse & apologizes. Which? GREAT manager!). Where you see Stede infantilizing his crew, I see them taking part in activities that, while generally relegated to childhood, aren't implicitly childish, & of their own volition, & Stede sowing the seeds that will eventually blossom into a found family (not imposing an established family structure). For clarity, I'm not saying my interpretation is objectively right, nor that yours is wrong. I'm just saying framing is going to influence perception of whether Stede's behavior is Cringe, & that's kind of what I was getting at with my myriad examples of Stede behaving "authentically" or "inauthentically" & when that is a viable predictor of a general fandom perception of when Stede is being Cringe. Because I really don't think it is. This is going to continue in the notes because tumlr thinks they can cut my mic.

listen I love stede a lot - I think he's the bravest character in the show. he changes everyone he meets for the better. he embodies what I think of as the thesis of the show. if he wasn't the way that he is, the show would not be very good, imo.

but in ep one he gives his pirate crew notes on the raid they just did as though they were a community theater troupe and his notes were 1) complimenting his own opening speech as "very inspiring" and 2) complaining that that the crew wasn't sufficiently enthusiastic about robbing two poor fisherman of a single plant.

during the raid his narration went "some men are born to be pirate captains, others learn on the job. me? well I'm a pretty solid mix of both" as though he has any idea what he's doing.

and AFTER the raid Olu has to gently point out to him that piracy isn't a game to the rest of the crew.

There's a reason that Rhys Darby was the only person capable of playing Stede without making him seem like a total dick. And I think that's bc Rhys was able to convey the idea that Stede's behavior in the first few eps is coming out of this deep sense of insecurity - he's doing some Stede-y things (flag making! paying the crew! bedtime stories!) that are great but he's also pretending to be this macho pirate captain who totally knows what he's doing. And it's the pretending that makes people cringe with second hand embarrassment. While also, often, seeing themselves in it and feeling a great deal of sympathy for Stede about it.

The reason Stede is like this is because HE thinks there's something deeply wrong with him, a belief that has been solidified by everyone around him his entire life, and therefore he needs to do everything he can to hide that deeply wrong thing about him. When he unpacks that and embraces the things about himself he originally thought were embarrassing (being weak, pathetic, soft, etc), he can stop pretending. And that's when other characters grow to love him! And so people will sometimes call him cringe because they aspire to be cringe like him, to embrace the parts of themselves that they were punished for and live more authentically.

because he changes! that's the point! he moves from cringe (pretending to be someone he's not) to cringe (being true to himself, always a deeply vulnerable thing to be) and it takes a lot of hard work. that's what makes me LIKE him as a character. that's what I think makes him the bravest character on the show. because he doesn't start out perfect. he's a puppet who grows into a real boy and that means that for a period of time he was a puppet, and that's okay.

[rainofaugustsith]

Things Are As They Are

Viri comes out to Vette. Also posted in Sithy Snippets on Ao3. Some of Viri, Vette and Tivva's dialogue is taken or paraphrased from the Sith Warrior Chapter Two companion mission for Vette.

The Promenade is always busy. It’s 0215 in the morning by Vette’s chrono, and it might as well be mid-afternoon, for all the people clustered around the plaza. The aromas of sweat and spice are on the slight breeze, and Vette wrinkles her nose. Nar Shaddaa just never smells good. 

As busy as the Promenade is, Vette has no trouble navigating through the crowd. People tend to scurry out of the way as she approaches, thanks to the tall Sith lord walking through her side. Viri’s face is neutral and her hands are relaxed, hanging freely at her sides. Her lightsaber is sheathed on her hip. She’s chosen the least intimidating armor she owns for this excursion, and seems to be making an effort not to be frightening. The clouds of black and red Force power that often surround her are dormant and the air around her is calm. And yet, people still blanch and scurry away when she approaches. It must be hard, to have everyone run away from you, Vette thinks to herself. She sneaks a look at Viri. Nothing escapes the Sith lord; her blue eyes immediately fix on Vette’s face. ”Are you all right?” ”I am,” Vette replies, shuffling her feet. “Just…” ”Nervous.” ”Who wouldn’t be?” Vette stops short and takes a deep breath. They have reached the docked pleasure barge on the Promenade; the coordinates they’ve divined from a nervous contact at the Slippery Slope Cantina. The location of Vette’s sister, Tivva. Viri stops at the entrance. ”I’m happy to wait for you, if you think I’d complicate things.” ”No,” Vette says quickly, motioning for Viri to follow her onto the barge. “I’d appreciate it if you joined me.” ”Who are we looking for?” Viri’s eyes are already scanning the crowd, studying the faces at each slot machine and table. ”She’s blue, like me. She was always tall, even as a kid. Beautiful. She didn’t have any tattoos when I last saw her, but it’s been years…what if I don’t recognize her? What if she doesn’t know me?” Vette’s mouth goes dry. ”I don’t think anyone could forget you,” Viri smiles slightly. “We could start with…the woman holding her chain, as they say. Crystal, wasn’t it?” ”Yeah,” Vette says, relieved to have a focus. “Crystal. I don’t even know who to ask…” ”Hey,” Viri says, signaling a serving droid. “I want a woman for the night. Prettiest you’ve got. Help me out, who handles that here?”

The serving droid silently gestures toward an older Twi’lek woman sitting on a nearby banquette. 

”The direct route usually works,” Viri chuckles, leading the way. Crystal notices them as they approach, her eyes sweeping over them both with a calculated assessment. ”Hey, cute thing,” Crystal says, addressing Vette. “You looking for work?” ”No,” Vette stammers. “I…we…” ”Ah, you’re here for some fun, then. First time in a place like this?” Crystal says sympathetically. “Who do you fancy? Humans? Twi’leks? Nautolans? Men? Women?” ”Uh…” Vette swallows hard and looks at the ground. “I don’t fancy…no, I didn’t want to…we…” ”Do you have a girl working here named Tivva?” Viri says, stepping in. “We just want to say hi. Can you call her for us?” ”Ah,” Crystal says, looking from Viri to Vette and back again. “Everyone’s got someone who loves them. That’s it, isn’t it?” Vette nods mutely. ”Tivva! Get over here,” Crystal shouts. A woman by the edge of the barge cringes, and then sighs and makes her way through the crowd to the banquette. Crystal nods and walks away. There’s a resemblance, but not much of one. And as Tivva glowers at Viri and Vette in turn, there is no recognition in her eyes. ”No women, no couples, and no, I don’t want to hear any arguments,” Tivva says, her voice firm and strong. ”You…you don’t…” Vette opens her mouth, but no further words emerge.

Viri’s nostrils flare with a sudden burst of anger. “Hang on, Vette. I want to explore this rule against women. I mean, we’re all open minded here.” 

”Shut up,” Vette says, cutting her off. “Crazy Sith Channel on mute, please?” Viri glares at her. ”Argue somewhere else,” Tivva says, turning to walk away. ”Tivva, no!” Vette says, finding her voice. “Don’t you…don’t you know me? I’m not here as a customer, for Force’s sake, neither is she, and we’re certainly not a couple!” Tivva turns. Studies her. And as recognition floods her expression, tears form in her eyes. ”Ce’na. Oh stars.” Tivva whispers, coming closer. “It’s really you, isn’t it?” ”Took you long enough,” Vette sobs, hurling herself into Tivva’s arms. ”I can’t believe you’re still alive,” Tivva murmurs. ”Despite my best efforts.” ”Did she call you Ce’na?” Viri says, wrinkling her brow. ”This is my friend,” Vette says, looking to Viri. “She’s a Sith lord.” ”Charmed. Any family of Vette’s is a friend of mine.” Tivva draws back and stares at Vette, wrinkling her nose. “Vette? Is that what you’re calling yourself these days? Sounds like a gangster from the tech sector.” ”Yes, that’s my name now,” Vette says, arching her eyebrow. “Old days. Long behind me. The name stuck.” ”Tivva, you need to get back to work,” Crystal calls. “Unless the ladies want to pay for your time.” ”Start a tab for me,” Viri calls back. “I’ll cover whatever your normal fee is so they can talk.” ”It’s your credits to waste,” Crystal shrugs indifferently. Vette shifts uncomfortably from one foot to the other. “I’m guessing this wasn’t a voluntary career move.”

Tivva sighs. “I’ve been working here for two years, and it’s killing me. I kept thinking I’d get sold again but I’m too old. Please, Ce’na. You have to get me out of here. I’m sure she’d let me go, but not for free.”

”You know I will,” Vette says quickly. “Viri? Can you - please - buy her freedom? I wouldn’t ask, but it’s my sister….” ”Absolutely,” Viri says, pulling a stack of gold credits out of her pocket. “Tivva? Give this to your master. If she objects, she can talk to me. Sith lords can usually convince people.” ”You…you’re really doing this,” Tivva says, bewildered, as she cups both hands to take the credits.

”Yes,” Viri says. ”You see why I hang out with a Sith lord?” Vette grins. ”Thank you. Thank you so much. I’ll talk to Crystal and get my things and…” Tivva runs to Crystal, credits in hand. ”You…you are the best. Thank you,” Vette says, wiping tears from her eyes. “I’ll pay you back.” ”No, you won’t,” Viri says firmly. “I didn’t do this as a loan. And if we find anyone else you care about - friends, family - I’m happy to do the same. Just ask.” ”I’m sorry I told you to shut up before,” Vette murmurs, looking away. “It…just wasn’t the time for a joke.” ”No harm done.” Tivva returns, carrying a small, thin rucksack and her new documents. “I’m free. I’ve got my stuff. Let’s go.” ”That’s all you have with you?” Vette says sadly, gesturing at the bag as they walk away from the pleasure barge. “I don’t think it would be safe for you to stay with us, but I’m sure we could give you a lift out of town. Where to?” ”I don’t know,” Tivva shrugs, looking away. “I���m…not sure where to go now. I want to catch up, but I have to…get myself together.” ”Wait. Some of my friends are still on Nar Shaddaa,” Vette says, pulling her datapad out of her pocket and typing quickly. “I am sure they can give you a place to stay, at least temporarily. I ran with them for years.” ”Did they give you that terrible nickname?” Tivva asks, amused. ”Drop it with the name, would you? Do you want me to call them or not?” ”Yes,” Tivva says. “Please.”

 “I just got ahold of Taunt,” Vette says, reading the screen. “She’ll meet you at these coordinates. Just take the speeder to the Corellian district. Here’s my holo frequency. And money, here’s some credits…”

 “If anyone gives you trouble, you call us,” Viri says, raising an eyebrow. “I’d advise you not to mention my name to anyone. Wouldn’t want you to get caught in any Sith vendettas. But if you need my help, call.” 

”I have a Sith in my corner now?” Tivva seems amused. ”As I said, any family of Vette’s is a friend of mine,” Viri replies. “I won’t let harm come to Vette; I won’t let it come to you, either.” ”You’re all right,” Tivva says quietly. ”Go to Taunt, and call me…” Vette says, embracing her again. ”I will,” Tivva says. “I don’t even know what to think right now. But we’ll talk later.” ”We’ll walk you to the speeder,” Viri says, leading the way. * Vette watches Tivva’s speeder careen off into the Nar Shaddaa night. As she turns back to Viri, there are tears in her eyes. ”We found her. We really found her, Viri.” ”I’m so glad,” Viri says, a genuine smile crossing her lips. “And I’m sorry she could not travel with us. I wouldn’t have wanted to place her in danger.” ”It’s better that way,” Vette says. “I’m used to our murder and mayhem. She wouldn’t be.” ”Say nothing about her on the ship,” Viri warns, raising an eyebrow. “Even to those who are friends. You know the walls have ears, and we don’t want her on anyone’s radar.” ”Understood,” Vette says. ”Speaking of which, we should be getting back. You know the dummy will invariably have something new and miserable for me to do soon. And he won’t like waiting.” ”Back to Sith business! Grrr!” Vette sticks out her tongue. ”Let’s just stop at the bakery. It’s on the way. But they have cookies.” * When Viri says she wants cookies, she means it. Their air cart is so weighed down with cookies that both she and Vette have to push it, the crates swaying precariously as they make their way toward the spaceport. ”You know, I’d tell you just to learn to bake these. But you’d probably set the galley on fire,” Vette grunts, pushing the elevator button. ”Maybe? You know I would,” Viri says, smirking. She fishes into her bag for a cookie, closing her eyes and relishing the bite. ”Before we join the others, I wanted to ask you…there was something I noticed…” ”Hm?” Viri says, taking another bite of her cookie. ”You asked the droid for a woman. Not a man.” ”Yes, I did.” ”And then when Tivva said she wouldn’t take women, you were annoyed.” ”Yes, again.”

 “You wouldn't really have wanted to do anything with Tivva, would you?” 

”No. Absolutely not. I was making a general comment.” Viri finishes her cookie and takes another from the bag. ”It bothered you, what she said.” ”Somewhat. Not everyone likes women, I understand, but…” ”But you like women, don’t you?” ”Correct,” Viri says, looking straight ahead. “Do you have an issue with that?” ”No,” Vette says quickly; definitively. “Of course not. You like who you like. I was just curious. But…um…” Viri raises an eyebrow. “If you have a question about it, just ask me. I won’t be angry.” ”You’ve never had a girlfriend. Or had anyone…overnight…on the ship. Or flirted with anyone.” ”That’s right. Because nobody’s caught my interest.” ”Nobody?” ”Nobody.” ”You’re picky,” Vette laughs. ”No, it’s not that, it’s…” Viri’s voice trails off and she looks away. “It doesn’t matter. I’m not actively seeking anyone, and I’m not interested in casual encounters. Is your curiosity satisfied for now?”

”I think you should have a girlfriend,” Vette replies, elbowing Viri. ”I’ll keep your recommendation in mind,” Viri laughs, elbowing her back, gently. “But now is not the time. Things are as they are.” ”When will be the time?” Vette presses. “When you’re on the Dark Council?” ”It might be more dangerous then,” Viri laughs, as they walk through the hangar toward the ship. “It’s not what I need at this time.” ”You’re happy with things as they are?” ”Yes,” Viri says. “I have friends. Power. This fine ship. And…are we still sisters? Now that you’ve found Tivva again?” ”Of course,” Vette says fiercely. “You can’t be replaced.” ”I’m glad,” Viri says, smiling faintly. As she presses the button on the hangar, her face falls back into its Sith lord mode: expressionless but slightly malevolent. Things are as they are.