#I think it's interesting that Steph got fired from Robin for disobeying an order

[duskdog]

I started responding via tags but it actually started to get even more unwieldy than usual. :D I think you're right that withholding the information is evidence that at least some part of Bruce intended for Steph's time as Robin to be limited. Maybe there were other benefits to it. Like, even if he got Tim back, having a back-up trained wouldn't be the most awful thing. Maybe he thought he could use her in other capacities, even if she wasn't Robin anymore. Maybe he still really did think she had potential (he did tell her that once upon a time) and thought he could shape her towards something more acceptable while he's working on getting Tim back. And I certainly don't believe that he ever intended for Steph, or anyone, to get (physically) hurt. But I keep coming back to thoughts of what Batman is. He's the ultimate detective. He's a polymath, probably the best (or at least one of the best) in the entire DC Universe. His entire schtick is knowledge. Everything he does is based on information and preparation. He knows -- more than anybody in the world -- how absolutely vital it is to know things. He regularly fights people far more powerful than he is, and relies entirely on knowledge in order to do so. He even prepares plans about how to take down his closest comrades and friends, should it become necessary. Knowledge is, quite literally, power. So I can't believe for an instant that he doesn't 100% know that he's crippling Steph by withholding vital information from her. He knows that the person in the room with the least information is at the biggest disadvantage, and he willingly and knowingly ensured that person would be Steph. Now, maybe he expected her to "earn" that knowledge sooner rather than later. That seems a little doubtful, since nothing in this issue really indicates that he has much faith in her. He doesn't even really defend her to Alfred. He defends his choice, but he doesn't defend Steph directly, nor does his defense inspire much confidence, really. Basically "yeah, I know I said she sucks, but she's really determined, so I can probably teach her how not to suck". It seems more like he has faith in his teaching skills rather than in her learning skills. Regardless of whether he thought she would "pass" soon or not, though, I think it's sort of a moot point, because it was never necessary for him to make that split between Robin and knowledge in the first place. As you've pointed out, it's weird -- even Catwoman recognizes this. So why do it at all? Was it really so urgent that he have a Robin in the field now? Why not just keep her training out of the field until he trusted her enough to earn both the knowledge and the right to join him in the field? Something that would have been safer and more logical for everyone involved? It's almost like he really, really wanted someone to see her out in the colors sooner rather than later. Hmmm.... And of course, it's convenient that leaving her with limited information also happens to be setting her up to fail. It makes "lack of skills and talent" into a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the lack of information is inevitably going to lead to situations where she makes the wrong assumptions or the wrong call because she's missing pieces of the puzzle that no one else is. It was only a matter of time before she failed enough for him to boot her, even if she toed the line well enough to never willingly disobey him. Withholding knowledge = maintaining power and control. This was... a lot of words to say that I agree with you, I guess, but gosh I have such feelings about it.

Stephanie Brown: The Girl Robin, The Doomed Robin

Stephanie Brown is fired as Robin in Robin #128 (1993). I think there is strong evidence that Batman saw her time as Robin as temporary, and that she was always going to be fired, excuse or not, in Robin #128 or not. Just as soon as she became more trouble than she was worth, or as soon as she was no longer necessary.

I want to look at why (even from a Watsonian perspective) Stephanie Brown as Robin was doomed from the start. Here's Why I think this:

1. The False “Skills and Talent” excuse is reaffirmed and reutilized

After the period of time where Stephanie is sanctioned as Spoiler by Batman, she is ‘fired’ for the first time in Gotham Knights #37.

Batman does not tell Stephanie she is fired, he just never reallows her entry into the Batcave after locking everyone out during Bruce Wayne: Murderer. She has to track him down and ask what’s going on to find out he dropped her like she was nothing.

Gotham Knights #37 (2000)

He tells her it’s because she lacks the “skills or talent”. Is this true? Well… no, not reallyZ Or at least, we have very few good reasons to believe that this is Batman's real reason he fires her, especially in the face of all the other better substantiated explanations the text supports and states. As I’ve analyzed before, there’s strong evidence Batman fires her because he has reunited with his estranged team no longer needs her to make himself stop feeling lonely. Additionally, some part of her firing is because she reminds him too much of his dead son. (I highly recommend checking out the corresponding posts if you are interested in why)

Point is, I’ve already argued how the “skills or the talent” line is pretty much an Extremely bullshit excuse he only tells Stephanie to justify himself to her. But what does that have to do with Steph’s run as Robin?

Well, the idea that Stephanie lacks “the skills or the talent” comes up again. In fact, the exact words “skills and talent” are directly repeated when she is first sanctioned as Robin. And its very telling how they are used.

Let’s look at that moment. 

Alfred is trying to dissuade Batman from making Stephanie Robin, and Batman is defending his choice.

Robin #126 (1993)

Batman claims once more that Stephanie does not have the “skills and talent”. 

By doing this, Batman is reaffirming his largely facetious rationale he tells Stephanie when he he fires her the as Spoiler. By refusing to abandon this as an excuse, and repeating it now, he is reaffirming his own validity in that moment, his correctness is dropping her in the way he did.

But its also weird. If he fired her as Spoiler because he claimed she lacked “the skills or the talent”, why is he using her lack of “skills and talent” as a reason why she should be Robin?

Batman says she can be taught the “skills and talent” he claims she currently lacks. Was that magically not true when he fired her for lacking those same “skills and talent” in Gotham Knights #37? 

This straight contradiction is weird. What it does is key us in to the fact that Batmans spoken explanation about “skills and talent” for whether or not he wants Stephanie on his team is not really based off of any consistent logic about her skill level. 

This is backed up by something else he says to justify this choice in that very same comic.

Robin #126 (1993)

Again, this logic makes no sense with his past actions. If the issue with Stephanie being a vigilante is she is “out on her own” without being “under [Batmans] direct supervision”, then why did he fire Stephanie without a proper reason when she was sanctioned as Spoiler and was  under his supervision, when he was training her? 

Again, Robin #126 creates entirely contradictory logic for Batman, and calls out the specific peculiarities of this through the repetition of the “skills and talent” phrasing.

These moments establish right off the bat that Bruce Wayne’s spoken rationale for hiring Stephanie as Robin is completely illogical. 

Batman reusing the “skills and talent” justification also reaffirms his willingness to justify his first firing of her, and sets up the potential for him to use the exact same dumbass excuse that he used the first time.

This all shows that Batman is willing to use his bullshit excuses to fire or hire her indiscriminate from her actual personhood depending on what is most useful for him. And it shows Batman is retaining and reaffirming his so called “logic” for firing her in Gotham Knights #37, therefore leaving open the opprotunity for him to reuse the exact same excuse if he felt like it.

Chiefly, the reference to Gotham Knights #37 and her orginal firing asks us to compare her time as Robin to the first time she was hired and then fired, and examine why. And if the first time Steph was sanctioned was absoluely arbituary, what does that say about what might be true about her time as Robin?

But wait! There’s more.

2. Alfred’s allusion to Steph as an instrument to get Tim back as Robin

Alfred confronts Batman with this idea that Bruce might be trying to “lure” back Tim as Robin by making Stephanie Brown Robin.

Robin #126 (1993)

Regardless of how this scheme is supposedly meant to work, this idea is presented to the reader from Alfreds point of view. Alfred, who oftentimes serves as a vantage point of morality and reason in contrast to Batmans single-mindedness and irrational obsessions. Additionally, the language Alfred uses certifies how serious of an option this is. Alfred doesn’t just ask Batman to “clarify” or “say” he isn’t hiring Steph as Robin to lure Tim back, Afred asks Batman to “promise” it. The word “promise” implies that this isn’t just a far off vague possibility that Alfred is discussing, but a distinct and worrying probability Alfred is detecting.

And damningly, Bruce does not answer Alfreds plea. All he would have to say is one word, ‘no’, and he would banish this as a possibility from Alfred's mind and largely deny this reading from the narrative. But, as we see, he doesn’t deny what Alfred says. He ignores the direct question, and he turns his face away. Look at how as he speaks only a sliver of his face is visible in the proceeding panel to Alfreds question. 

This places Batmans silence in an even more damning light. He can’t even look Alfred in the eyes, he is already looking away as he speaks, as he ignores Alfreds question entirely.

You can decide whether or not you find this moment entirely convincing, whether or not you believe Alfred is correct in his assessment. But at the very least, this moment asks the reader take seriously the possibility that Alfred is right: that Batman has made Stephanie Robin in order to try to get Tim Drake back as Robin.

But wait! There’s even more.

3. Stephanie Brown and the lack of information given to her as proof of the temporariness nature of her time as Robin

Bruce Wayne’s distrust of Stephanie is a long running theme of their relationship. It’s brought up consistently during the time she is sanctioned as Spoiler. 

Robin #100 (1993)

And it drives a wedge between her and Tim romantically, before she is eventually told Tims real identity.

This isn’t just a vague distrust, the main way it manifests is through the secret, vigilante related information which Stephanie does not have access to.

She is denied knowledge, specifically secret identity related knowledge, consistently. Not having Stephanie cued into all of the information the rest of the team has when she is Spoiler is a tactical decision which isn’t exactly cruel or necessarily especially strange on its own. But this distrust with sensitive information, (most primarily Batman’s true identity as Bruce Wayne) is extremely strange when Stephanie is made Robin.

The “Robin” identity up until that point is invariably tied to Bruce Wayne. 

In the cases of every Robin beforehand, (in most interpretations and tellings) the meeting of Bruce Wayne and the meeting of Batman occur in extremely close proximity to one another, and the full picture of Bruce Wayne’s secret identity does not remain a total secret for very long, and in NONE of these tellings is that information not known when any of the other Robins put on the costume. The Robin and Batman relationship is also just generally tied strongly to Bruce Wayne as an identity. Dick Grayson and Jason Todd are ward and adopted son respectively of Bruce Wayne specifically, and Tim Drake lives with Bruce Wayne in the manor. They all interact with the man and the mask.

Stephanie breaks this pattern. She is the only Robin who doesn’t get to know his real name or see his face. (Her relationship with Batman mirrors the early Batgirl/Batwoman archetype much more- a character who interacts with The Batman, but isn’t alllowed know him as Bruce Wayne)

The text of Robin #126 points out her lack of knowledge specifically, but explains it away as temporary.

Robin #126 (1993)

We are told in this panel that it is a temporary matter, that of course Stephanie will eventually get to know Batmans identity, she just has to prove herself first!

This screams bullshit to me. Stephanie has worked him as Spoiler for a considerable amount of time in the past, and after more time still she’s been made Robin, but this probation until she gets to know the “big secrets” is somehow necessary where it never has been before? I don’t really buy it, but you are certainly allowed to take him at his word.

Anyway you slice it, distance from important information, the “big secrets” is a prevailing aspect of Stephanie’s time as a vigilante.

And it finally comes to a head in War Games (2004). (I won’t break down the entirety of my thoughts on War Games here for the record, but trust me, they are numerous and vitriolic)

This idea of Batman's distrust in giving Stephanie sensitive information is hammered in over and over during War Games. For instance, the first issue of War Games contains several small allusions to this idea.

Batman: The 12 Cent Adventure (2004)

This only becomes more overt as War Games continues, specifically when Stephanie meets and speaks with Catwoman.

Catwoman #34 (2002)

Catwomans internal monolouge points out the specific strangeness of Robin Stephanie not knowing who Matches Malone is, she presses on how this is especially strange for someone using the Robin mantle, alluding to what I touched on earlier, the unqiuess of Robin Stephanie’s relationship with secrets and secret identities compared to every other Robin.

 Catwoman #34 (2002)

We get another example of this where Selina once more points out information that Selina, a longtime friend, enemy, and lover of Batman, assumes Robin would or should naturally know, which we discover Stephanie was not privy to during her time as Robin.

Thats two examples where Stephanie’s lack of knowledge about secret identities (which there is no real reason for her not to know) is specifically pointed out to be strange and uncommon in relation to what the “Robin” mantle denotes, a level of trust which is simply not present.

But what am I getting at here? What does this distrust mean?

Well, if you ask me, it’s evidence that Robin, for Stephanie, was always intended by Bruce Wayne to be temporary. You don’t give sensitive information to temporary members, to the people who aren’t long term, who aren’t meant to stick around, who are going to be dropped, just like Bruce dropped her the first time.

This feels especially true given the fact that this sensitive information she is not told, in the case of catwomans secret ID and who Matches Malone is, isn’t particulary sensitive at all and the sort of information that it’s clearly expected a Robin should know. 

To me, the fact that all of that information is withheld from Steph, and especially the fact that she doesn’t get to know “The Secret” is indicative of the fact that she was always going to be fired as Robin, that she was always meant to be temporary.

Between the “skills and talent” reiteration, Alfred’s explicit reference to the idea that Batman was using Stephanie to lure Tim back, and the information which is withheld from Stephanie in direct contrast to every previous Robin, there is substantial evidence that Bruce Wayne always intended for Stephanie Brown to be a means to an end as Robin.

If we take Alfreds word, this temporariness is because Stephanie served as a cog in Bruce’s larger scheme to lure back Tim into the role of Robin.

Does this mean Batman though of her as temporary the entire time she was Robin? No. Does that mean he was doing this maliciously? Also no. Did he even know he was doing this distancing consciously? Hard to say. 

It also doesn’t mean he didn’t have sweet moments with Stephanie as Robin, it doesn’t mean he didn’t change his mind about using her to lure Tim back (if that was his plan at some point), and it doesn’t mean he never cared about her.

But I think it's entirely fair to say that at least some part of Bruce Wayne was just fine with using Stephanie the same way he did when he sanctioned her as Spoiler and then dropped her. That at least some part of Batman was retaining these excuses, keeping up those walls and secrets because at least some part of him knew she wasn’t supposed to last. That some part of him did this so that he would be able to get rid of her guilt free as soon as it became more beneficial for her to get gone.

[soleminisanction]

Like I mentioned on my previous post, there’s a particular aspect of how Steph got fired from being Robin that I find particularly interesting. (And based on your tags, @alvindraperzzz, you're going to enjoy this as well ;) )

So, just as a reminder, this is the deal that Stephanie and Bruce make when he agrees to let her be Robin:

"You're on probation. You don't learn any of the big secrets. And the first time you disobey my orders, is the precise moment you're out. No second chances."

Here's what makes this interesting: Tim also had a probationary period. It took place between 1989's "A Lonely Place of Dying" storyline and 1991's Robin miniseries, happening in scattered pieces across bits of Batman, Detective Comics, and other associated books.

Aside from changes in comm-tech between 1989 and 2003, there's only two major differences between Steph's probationary period and Tim's. First, Tim already knew the biggest of the Big Secrets, so he gets moments of interacting with Bruce and Alfred in civilian mode and even stays with them during school holidays. And second, Tim was not allowed his own costume and was forbidden from going out on patrol. Presumably, this second difference comes from a mix of Bruce's implied scheme to lure Tim back, Steph already having copious experience on the streets as Spoiler, and just general management of their differing personalities.

The important thing is, during this time, Tim was under the same restrictions as Steph: stay out of this fight, and if you disobey me you're gone. And there came a time, right at the end, where Batman wound up in a dangerous situation versus a supervillain (in this case, Scarecrow) and the would-be Robin chose to break the rules. What's interesting is the parallels and differences between the two scenes, and how, if you're paying attention, they're pretty consistent, despite their very different endings.

For one, in Tim's case, he's not initially on the scene, and he doesn't have contact with Bruce (like I said, 1980's comm-tech -- Oracle wasn't even a thing yet). This means that he isn't defying direct orders when he chooses to act. And he doesn't rush in himself right off the bat -- his first choice is actually to dial up Commissioner Gordon on the landline.

It's only after he runs out of ways to get a hold of Batman and warn him of the danger that he makes the decision to go out. And he does so very conscious of the fact that this is going to cost him Robin, in spite of the months of work he's put in.

Stephanie, on the other hand, is on the scene and has a direct line to Batman. She's chattering in his ear the whole time, to the point that he has to tell her to be quiet because she's distracting him. And when the fight gets going, he tells her repeatedly that he's doing fine, don't come in here, stay in the plane.

She lasts maybe fifteen seconds before abandoning her comms and diving in.

She doesn't wait or consider her options. She doesn't even give their deal so much as a passing thought. She simply assumes that she knows better than him and leaps in without thinking. Which mostly just demonstrates that a) she doesn't trust him which is bad when you're trying to form a partnership, and b) she can't be trusted to follow orders.

Also, frankly, she demonstrates poor judgement by completely misjudging the situation. Bruce does not need her help. Even injured, he's doing just fine. Stephanie rushing in is nothing but a distraction and, ultimately, what loses the fight.

Tim, on the other hand, judged the situation correctly. When he arrives on the scene, Batman (and innocent civilian Vicki Vale, not shown for space) is in trouble. He's been caught by Scarecrow and genuinely needs the back-up because he's being psychologically tortured.

Another parallel is that both Robins wind up in trouble as a result of coming to Batman's rescue. Which makes sense, they're teenagers versus adults with super-tech, training and horrible fear chemicals.

In Tim's case, he gets doused with fear gas (specifically "essence de trauma" because this was back when Scarecrow had specific strains of his stuff) which trapped Tim in an illusion of the very recent attack on his parents. Seriously, this is happening like, the day after they buried his mother.

But! He pulls himself out of it with the help of what might be hallucinations or might be the ghosts of Jason Todd and the Earth-1 Dick Grayson (it's never explained because this was the late 80s and nobody questions this stuff when half the creative staff is running on cocaine.) He then manages to turn the tables on Scarecrow and actually save the day.

Stephanie, on the other hand, gets herself caught.

Which, like I said, loses Batman the fight. And more importantly, it puts Steph's life in danger and she's not able to get herself free.

And it isn't like she doesn't have the opportunity, in-universe. This is where the scene ends, but Bruce recaps on the next page how Scarab, quote, "Left Robin tied up, but alive and uninjured" when she stole the Bat-plane to make her escape.

So, if you're a reasonable person, I hope you can see how there's already multiple strikes against Steph that don't really apply to Tim: she broke the rules thoughtlessly instead of with consideration, she defied direct orders instead of taking initiative on her own, and she completely misjudged the situation, putting herself in danger for no real reason and costing Batman the fight.

But now, we come to the difference that almost everyone overlooks, but I think is the real key to the whole thing: how each Robin behaves in the aftermath.

Because, see, Tim comes to Bruce immediately afterwards and owns up to everything.

I really like this scene because what Tim says here is very deliberate. He doesn't make excuses or try to deny anything. He simply explains himself and then apologizes, fully willing to accept the consequences of his actions.

It's a very mature thing to do. I couldn't have done it at 13. I'm not fully confident I could do it now, at 33. And in return, Bruce says this:

This is the story where Tim earns his wings. In the next two pages, he's given his costume and is officially made the new Robin. And it's because he demonstrates, through his actions in this story, that he understands both the weight of the legacy and the very real responsibility he's about to leap into.

Compare that to how it goes down with Steph.

Like I said in my previous post, despite Bruce saying she'd be out "the precise moment" she disobeyed him, Bruce doesn't fire her immediately after the Scarab incident. Instead, the story skips ahead by three weeks, until after Bruce has recovered from his injuries.

This is something he's shown consciously choosing to do, though he doesn't explain why. I like to think it's to give her time to consider her actions.

Note the difference in the way that Steph behaves: she shows up in her costume, with the standing assumption that they're going to go after Scarab. The only thing that she thinks would've prevented them from doing so is Batman's vision not healing.

She feels "guilty" about him being blinded, but that just demonstrates that she doesn't really understand the situation -- Batman was blinded while she was in the plane. Which implies that what she feels "guilty" about is not disobeying him sooner. The fact that she put herself in danger, the fact that she broke the rules, these things never cross her mind.

You'll note that she doesn't apologize either. Again, it's probably not deliberate, but "I feel so guilty, it was all my fault!" is not the same thing as "I'm sorry." The former is what you say when you're trying (consciously or not) to get the person you've wronged to comfort you. To tell you that it's okay, you didn't mean to do it, everybody messes up so don't feel bad. Which you'll note that Bruce does.

It's only after Steph does this, comes to him acting like nothing's wrong and they just had a little oopsie-daysie on the way to their next rip-roaring adventure, that Bruce finally drops the bomb.

Note the "direct order in the field" specification.

Stephanie only starts to admit that she did something wrong after she realizes she's going to be punished, and even then, she's not apologizing, and she's not owning up to her actions. She's making excuses, trying to wheedle out of the consequences of her own actions. And not once does she ever seem to internalize that she could have died.

And all of this is very in-keeping with her personality as established up to his point.

In short, while the two situations are very similar, Stephanie's actually demonstrates the exact opposite of Tim's: even after years of being Spoiler and multiple occasions where her own life, civilian lives, and the lives of people she supposedly cares for have been on the line, she's still treating this all as a game where the most important aspect of the outcome is how she feels about it. It's not just that she made "one mistake," this is part of a pattern for her, one that demonstrates very aptly that she does not understand the danger she's putting herself in, doesn't respect the guidance of the people who are trying to teach her, and frankly, has no interest in ever getting better, because she doesn't think she has a problem.

It can't be her fault, after all. She just made a little mistake! It's everyone else who're being unfair to her, holding her to rules and agreements she never meant to honor, and they'll all see as soon as she can prove them wrong...

And we all know where that leads.

Now, there are people who believe that this entire issue is simply unfair to Stephanie. And yeah, there's an entirely different discussion to be had about the out-of-universe decisions surrounding this story, the intention of the creators, etc. But I think everything that happens here in Robin #126 is as in-keeping for Steph's personality as the events of Batman #457 are for Tim. And I believe that, in both, Bruce's reasoning is fair and based on sound judgement, not sexism.

Still, they're very fun to compare. The nuances between the different relationships is very interesting.

[our-happygirl500-fan]

You know the whole Baterang to the throat thing that causes a lot of discussion in the fandom? I think Bruce might not have been aiming for the throat

It ricochets

This point in comics Bruce has been through a ringer Steph's died, Barbara and Jim have left, Leslie betrayed him and he's had to send Cass and Tim away and now Jason is back but for revenge so Bruce isn’t at his best and I think Bruce threw the Baterang in a moment of panic and either over or undershot which ended up with well that.

This moment causes a lot of debate but I don't see it as “Bruce harming Jason to save the joker” the way a lot of fics paint it I see it more as he'd been aiming for Jason's arm or something to disarm him but overshot and it’s kind of like a symbolism of their relationship. 

 Which is basically Bruce takes an action to stop Jason from going down a path that he thinks will end up hurting Jason, but ends up hurting Jason in the long-run.

Like when he discussed taking away robin from Jason (because he thought Jason needed time to deal with issues that were becoming more prevalent) which only ended up making Jason feel insecure about his position in the Wayne household, contributing to why he so desperately pursued a stable parental relationship in his biological mother.

Bruce knows that if he gives in and kills the Joker he'll never stop killing we've seen timelines that prove that and I think Bruce also thinks the same of Jason that if Jason kills the Joker he won't stop at all so it’s not that he’s saving the Joker but that he’s trying to save Jason but Bruce ultimately misunderstands Jason’s needs and winds up hurting him.

Bruce is trying to save Jason from what he sees as a downwards spiral, but he ends up hurting him not just emotionally, but physically, and in the most extreme way possible. It's like an even darker echo of how trying to bench him as Robin led to his death.

Bruce has spent YEARS haunted by the memory of Jason’s death his death fundamentally changed Bruce's entire character Alfred said that Jason's death affected Bruce more than his own parents death.

In Underworld Unleashed it's revealed that his greatest desire is to have Jason back, in Hush he talks about how he wanted to put Jason in the Lazarus Pit and how he believes Jason knew he always loved him, and in As The Crow Flies we learn that his greatest fear is Jason coming back as an enemy and then in Under the Red Hood he gets Jason back (his greatest desire) but as an antagonist (his greatest fear) and moreover his belief that Jason 'knew' he loved him is WRONG.

Jason's insecurities from before his death combined with the perceived betrayal of Bruce not avenging him have led Jason to the point where he genuinely believes Bruce doesn't care, and in Jason's eyes, killing the joker is the only way Bruce can prove that he does but instead, in that moment, Bruce's attempt to diffuse the situation backfires.

Bruce misunderstands what Jason needs in that moment like he misunderstood what Jason needed at the start of Death in the Family it's just the ultimate representation of their constant emotional feedback loop. They trap themselves in a cycle of fighting because Jason can't read how Bruce really feels and Bruce can't read what Jason really needs and in that moment both those things are true, with Jason not seeing that Bruce truly cares anymore, and Bruce not knowing how to properly deescalate the situation and show Jason that he still cares.

It's extremely easy to read the batatrang throw as purposeful even though I wholly believe it was accidental but if that moment was explored more, I'm positive that Jason would believe it wasn't an accident, and would view it as proof of his already held view that Bruce doesn't love him anymore after all, that could have killed him, symbolically disowning him in the most extreme way possible.

Heck in Jason's appearance in Green Arrow (2001) Bruce had thought Jason might have died again! Before Jason turned up to mess with Mia.

The thing that's tragic about Jason that actually leads to a lot of his own suffering is that Jason doesn't really know what a healthy relationship looks like so I'm not sure when his actual 'last straw' would be.

Jason is the kind of person who sees love and acceptance as entirely circumstantial. He believes he must /earn/ love and acceptance, i.e. by being Robin, rather than it being inherently given.

A huge piece of understanding Robin Jason is understanding how much he lacked proper support systems back then. School was his only connection to his kids his age, and he didn't benefit much from that connection, his life was essentially: manor, school, Robin, repeat.

Jason loved school, but his school life was also pretty depressing. Jason kept to himself, he didn't have the time to participate in extracurriculars even when he wanted to and his peers didn't view him very positively. Jason was also really isolated from the rest of the hero community, there was his stint with the Titans, but it was pretty brief. He was also penpals with Kid Devil, but for the most part, he just had Batman.

The lack of support is actually one of the reasons I give for Jason and Steph dying in universe since they were the two Robins without support systems outside of Gotham. When Bruce was a jerk Dick and Tim could be like 'fine I'm going to go hang out with the Teen Titans or Young Justice' but Jason and Steph could only be like 'oh no' plus Bruce would deliberately try to take away Steph's support systems that she did have multiple times like when he ordered Cass to stop training with Steph.

But that's besides the point, I wouldn't be surprised if Jason confused being Robin with being accepted in the manor so when Bruce threatened to take away Robin from him, he might've seen it as his only proper support system being taken away from him, his world felt rocked back into instability once again.

When you look at it like that, it's very easy to understand why Jason sought out his biological mother. He had a hope that Sheila would offer him that stability once more, and that he'd get support and trust and unconditional love.

And that’s what make it all the more heartbreaking to me he came to this woman seeking love and gave her his greatest secret and she repaid him with a horrific death.  Jason’s death is one of the saddest to me because there’s no high stakes 'he died saving the world stuff' he’s just a kid who wanted a mom and got killed for it.

DC’s habit of taking away who he was is so detrimental to his backstory as the Red Hood because the transformation from someone who tried being kind and who did give it their all being killed for it and coming back like ‘no more’ is so much more interesting than ‘we always knew this would happen’.

Robin disobeying orders is nothing new. If that was the core of why Jason died, then any Robin disobeying orders should never be put in a positive light, but often it is. Jason (and Steph) were just the ones unlucky enough to emerge dead and judged for it instead of alive and praised for it.

Jason died because he was a child who just wanted to be safe and loved.

So many times Robin disobeying orders saved lives it’s nothing new and Jason had a pretty solid reason, the story of Jason Todd should be portrayed as the tragedy not make him some warning sign.

This is why I always hated the victim blaming after Jason & Steph's deaths because they died doing what if it had been Tim or Dick a Robin would be praised for, like take Steph for example we've seen constant stories of Bruce firing Robin, them going off on their own & Bruce realising he's wrong & taking them back but when Steph goes off on her own she dies the only reason Jason & Steph died is that the writers forced them to fail where they would have allowed the others to succeed.

But anyway back to my point the thing about Jason feeling like he had to earn love is why he was initially so hung up on the idea of Bruce 'replacing' him when he came back to life, he viewed Tim being robin as Bruce /transferring/ his love for Jason to another person, rather than seeing that Bruce could love Tim while still loving and missing him.

The reason Jason sought out his mother after Bruce benched him as Robin was that he viewed Bruce benching him as Bruce rejecting him and latched onto the idea of finding someone, i.e. a birth mother, who is supposed to give /unconditional love/.

The fact that his birth mother REJECTED HIM and then played a hand in his murder undoubtedly affected his attitude when he came back, if even his mother didn't want him, and then Bruce let the joker live and replaced him, then, in Jason's eyes, OF COURSE Bruce doesn't care and as mentioned previously Jason didn't really have any friends in school or the hero community, believing that the only real close personal connection in your live, someone you spent all your time with, had forgotten about you and rejected you is bound to mess a person up.