#I am used to academic mudslinging but that's beyond

[themidnightcircusshow]

"#And notably also insisting that Scrope was executed for the Southampton Plot because Henry V was homophobic#(because Scrope's defence was that he was just siding with the conspirator's so he could get information!)#(he was Henry's bed mate so obviously Henry must trust him! [Mortimer's argument beimg Henry killed him for saying they slept together])"

...he WHAT?! He's super weird about Scrope and insists he must be innocent because historians are "confused" about his role and he's the good kind of very religious (y'know, not like Henry V) and well, he said so! But I didn't know he'd gotten even more batshit about Scrope. 😩

I can't find it now, because google is the absolute worse, so keep in mind this is going entirely off memory and I could be wrong. But yeah, in an article I read, I recall it mentioning Ian Mortimer arguing that the reason why Scrope got the most 'humiliating' punishment was because Scrope used he and Henry sleeping together in his defense and Henry was furious at the affront to his masculinity.

Which, if true, is ahistorical to truly impressive proportions.

[heartofstanding]

Oh my god, if this is true... it’s insane. Not as insane as the motto from the iliad that doesn’t exist but. God. It’s so bad. Same-sex bed-sharing was an entirely unremarkable and non-scandalous practice and you would think someone that’s all over the no-homo side of history would know that. I have trouble believing it of Mortimer because it’s really... John Ashdown-Hill levels of crankness.

#Also I read some of Year of Glory to see if it was from that (it wasn't) but oh my gosh if this is one of the most 'readable historians'... #And the way he says with such certainty that we know the charges of the conspirators trying to kill the King and his brothers was false#(do we? Do we know this? You haven't given a reason WHY we know this?)#And that historians are 'intoxicated by Henry's greatness'#I am used to academic mudslinging but that's beyond

The thing about Mortimer is that he is a hydra head of bad takes. I started writing about Scrope and went to check some things and found his whole dismissive sniping at other historians. He doesn’t have to deal with the thoughtful, often critical analyses of Anne Curry, Christopher Allmand, Juliet Barker et al because they’re just “intoxicated” by Henry’s “greatness”. And it’s like: they are critical, they’re just not hypercritical like Mortimer, who seems to only be able to talk about people if they’re the greatest ever (Edward III, Henry IV) or the worst ever (Henry V).

The whole “the conspirators weren’t actually intending to kill the king and his brothers” thing was first argued by T. B. Pugh, I think, on the basis that the conspirators never actually admitted to plotting Henry V’s death (in the surviving sources, at least). I always wonder what the likes of Pugh and Mortimer think would have happened to Henry and his brothers had the Southampton Plot succeeded. They would have probably been stripped of their titles and imprisoned, lest they serve as a rallying point for those dissatisfied with the new regime and when a rebellion happened... oops, they died of melancholy. Just like Richard II and Edward II.

"#And notably also insisting that Scrope was executed for the Southampton Plot because Henry V was homophobic#(because Scrope's defence was that he was just siding with the conspirator's so he could get information!)#(he was Henry's bed mate so obviously Henry must trust him! [Mortimer's argument beimg Henry killed him for saying they slept together])"

...he WHAT?! He's super weird about Scrope and insists he must be innocent because historians are "confused" about his role and he's the good kind of very religious (y'know, not like Henry V) and well, he said so! But I didn't know he'd gotten even more batshit about Scrope. 😩

I can't find it now, because google is the absolute worse, so keep in mind this is going entirely off memory and I could be wrong. But yeah, in an article I read, I recall it mentioning Ian Mortimer arguing that the reason why Scrope got the most 'humiliating' punishment was because Scrope used he and Henry sleeping together in his defense and Henry was furious at the affront to his masculinity.

Which, if true, is ahistorical to truly impressive proportions.