#Goyim be like “oh you don't learn from the holocaust”

[psychologeek]

Holocaust (and culture appropriation)

(TW: holocaust, death camps, sexual assaults, rape, industrial murder. I will put the graphic shit undercut. Include children death and human experiments).

Sometimes I think about how fucked up it is that for most non-jews (and some jews) "The Holocaust" is Anne Frank and Auschwitz "where they killed people".

I think about the fucking, the goddamn AUDACITY some people have to take our trauma and use it as a tool. As a lesson.

People that for them the holocaust is nothing but a story, a bunch of facts, probably as aware of it as they're aware of the crusaders.

(Once upon a time, in a far away land, there were Troubles)

People who didn't hear about it as children, who didn't grew up with six million and one-and-a-half million and yellow stars and quiet ceremony and Yizkor (remember).

That.

Would look at a pile of hats and bones and wigs and hair and make it about them.

But also

Sometimes I think about how wild it is, that this looks so horrific to them.

(And they never heard about half of it.)

Like.

Dear.

Deary.

We are used to death. We are so used to being murdered, and loosing loved ones by hate, that half of our culture is basically based on it.

I think about how non-jews keep talking about the holocaust, like it's a clean cut, like it's a thing that was, like it's that's all that was - there were people hiding, and there were gas chambers, and that's it.

And I remember being a kid (maybe 10 yo?) reading a kid/ya book that was an autobiography, and I remember the writer (who was a young teen at the time, and pretended to be a Christian German) wrote about someone came into the shower and touched him. (Writer) Panicked, and turned around - and then the other man asked him "wait- are you jewish?"

As a kid, I remember that this is all that was in it.

As an adult, I remember that scene, sometimes. And I can have a pretty clear idea on why the older man didn't tell about the kid.

I remember, several years ago, reading about a therapy group for holocaust survivors that were sexually assaulted.

I remember reading about an old lady, that (70 years later) told about what happened to her when she hide away with her sister, (I think they were two, or three girls?) she was sixteen, or maybe fourteen. I remember

"I did it so they'll share their food with us".

~

I think about people talking about the "death camp" Auschwitz, and how someone said (those who went there, were the lucky ones. When the newbies asked what happened, where are their families? We just pointed at the burning chimneys of Birkenau ,and the smoke.)

~

I remember the HUNDREDS who died once the camps were "freed", because they didn't know the dangers of eating two pieces of bread after a long period of starving.

I remember the massive Jewish community of Poland that was just. Erased. 99% of 3 million population pre-war. Whole communities we only remember and mention as the community's name (and even that is a very long list.)

I remember how people remember it as "German jews" (and some Poland) - but it's not. My grandma had cousins in Debretsen, Hungary. And it's Ukraine and France and Morocco and Greece and Lybia and Lithuania and Latvia and almost everywhere in Europe and North Africa

(except for Denmark. we love Denmark. My grandad's step-grandma survived there. She immigrated to her family in Israel after that.)

~

Idk if Goyim ever heard about Mangele. I wonder, how many of them heard during their childhood about:

The eye experiments, where he injected serums in people's (living) eyes, to see what would happen?

His obsession about twins. The toddlers that got their back skinned, then stitched together in "to see what will happen".

(They died after four days of misery.)

[terulakimban]

I think you're giving too much credit, because IME, the "just punch nazis crowd" may want the hero moment, but they're not actually going to throw the punches. They want the credit for the hero moment without even doing that part, let alone the actual work.

I've done the hard bit. I actually went and sat my Jewish ass down for a "so. You want me dead. Why?" conversation with someone who'd publicly posted death threats against me specifically, and I fucking called for that meeting because I was sick of feeling hunted.

And the result is that I have no patience whatsoever for "punch nazis" rhetoric from anyone who hasn't actually done it. I have known far too many people who'd natter on about "nazis bad; punch nazis" and were absolutely nowhere to be found when there were actual nazis present. I will believe someone who uses "punch nazis" as a slogan if and only if they have proven themselves to be as willing to endanger themself to protect me as I am willing to endanger myself to protect my community. But otherwise? It's just braggadocio. It's easy rhetorical points about something they don't care about or understand.

And, more dangerously? It's a lie to attempt to lure Jews into a false sense of security. There's no shame in fear, but you cannot tell people they can trust you with their safety if they actually can't. Because if they do, they can die. We learn that lesson very young. It was a regular warning I got from Holocaust survivors, because all the ones I knew had known people who'd died for trusting the wrong person. They trusted someone who'd insisted they'd help and that they understood the risks, and who, when the chips were down, said no or turned them in.

But I digress. Y'know what I find most telling about the situation around that little chat I had?

For all the goyim who were saying "don't do that, it's dangerous, it's not your responsibility," while I was doing my safety planning, not a single one offered to have the conversation for me. No one offered to even try to fix the problem. Plenty of "you should just hit the motherfucker." Quite a lot of "if it were me, I'd shoot the asshole." This was someone whose identity, hobbies, job, and views were all a matter of public record. They could have. They could've punched. They could've talked. They could've shunned, even. And they didn't -this person's views became public, and people went "oh, that's terrible" in private interactions with me and proceeded to do absolutely nothing about the individual in question (and then get increasingly uncomfortable about me having issues with the situation). "It's not your responsibility" -well I don't see you stepping up, and someone's got to do something, and I'm here and no one else is willing to bother, so it looks like it's me.

Because it's always "punch nazis" until there's a nazi who needs to be punched, and then the person with the crossed-out swastika pin is nowhere to be found. It's never "escort the Jews to synagogue" or "talk to the nazi" because that requires actually doing something.

I don't think people on this website understand what "you should love jewish people more than you hate nazis" means

do you hate nazis because they're fun to hate on and easy to ratio? or because of the material harm they have caused, are causing, and will continue to cause? when you see a nazi, do you see an acceptable target? or do you see an active threat? what do you do to help jewish people outside of these situations? anything at all? do you have positive views on judaism? do you try to better yourself by listening to jewish voices on topics of bigotry?

I'm not going to complain about a nazi getting punched for being a nazi, but the issue isn't as simple as just punching nazis. you need to love jewish people more than you hate nazis if you want to address the root causes of antisemitism

[when-wax-wings-melt]

alright so i have that pretty popular post that's like 'just because you identify as xyz and it might be a phase doesn't mean people can invalidate it, temporary doesn't mean unimportant." well some bitch came into my replies, and i think they were agreeing with me, said something like "hitler was a painter, you're saying his genocide doesn't matter because it was temporary?"

i didn't even realize until later they were adding on to my point and not arguing with me, i just saw his name and went right to jewish panic. don't even remember what i said, i was super out of it, but it was something like "what the fuck were you thinking, invoking the holocaust like that to prove an unrelated point, go fuck yourself, bitch."

deleted the reply later because i didn't really want to engage and fight back but i was just so angry that i kind of had to in the moment. anyway i hate that i feel guilty for getting mad like i had EVERY right but... idk jews are very expected to just shut up about our oppression and not get offended by people casually tossing the holocaust around. we're just supposed to put up with goyim's bullshit and i hate that i've bought into the idea and feel like i should've given the person the benefit of the doubt and not gotten so angry. i absolutely should have gotten angry, that reply was FUCKED UP. but pretty much any time i call out antisemtism i get backlash so i feel preemptively guilty for not just sitting down and taking it ig.

idk i think goyim should be banned from talking about the holocaust (outside the context of like a history lesson ofc) until they learn to respect its importance. this is an exaggeration but i am just so damn frustrated arghhhh

Oh my god you are SO valid what the fuck.

Gentiles NEED to understand that the Holocaust is not a "gotcha" they can use to validate their responses to something. Hitler being an absolute extreme does not give them (or anyone) the right to use him as an example for ANYTHING.

Some people seem to think that since the Holocaust affected so many people all around the world that it can be entirely taken out of context as an event that destroyed a third of the Jewish population in Europe and still is the cause of significant generational trauma from people who are half a century removed from it... It's not just a term you can use.

So, psa. Gentiles, stop comparing the Holocaust to ANYTHING like homophobia today. It's not about you. It is not about you.

[nonbinarychaoticstupid]

I might be missing something bur re: your tags on the Auschwitz names post. What in g-d's name is "toh holocaust discourse". I am so afraid

oh l-rd how do i begin to explain

tl;dr this is another useless toh twitter discourse thing that resulted in harassment of the people who actually bothered to have a normal critical discussion of media they enjoyed (ie. jewish + romani + black people). btw if anyone uses this as an excuse to bring discourse to the one safe bastion (tumblr) i'm straight up killing you i don't fucking care i am purely making this for clarification purposes

longer version as i understand it with the obligatory disclaimer that i don't pay attention to twitter and toh discourse in particular and this may or may not be correct so do not take this as an accurate report :

jewish + romani + black people point out a few examples of antisemitism, holocaust imagery, anti-romani racism, and antiblackness in the owl house. this is from a purely critical point of view and not intended to cancel the show. no one actually thinks dana terrace hates minorities. there is a fairly well-written thread abt this by a jewish person that came out before most of the discourse kicked off and summarises what it was all about: 'we have some legitimate criticisms of a very well-written and diverse queer show that we think is important to consider' and i would link it but i don't want it to start up again

white goyim start getting involved + suddenly the discussion moves from 'hm it is very annoying having to see mass genocides reflected in media maybe we should learn other ways of depicting the oppression of people that doesn't mirror the holocaust' to 'well I'M queer and QUEER PEOPLE were affected in the holocaust so I HAVE MORE OF A LEG TO STAND ON THAN YOU and i think it's FINE' to literal autistic queer jewish people + poc and thus the Harassment Begins

people also start harassing crew members(?). i should also note that no one who is capable of critical thought thinks the toh crew hates jewish people

'well alex hirsch is jewish and HE didn't say anything so it's FINE :/' alex hirsch's job is not Jew Sensitivity Reader that is not his job he is not paid to do that it is not the job of minority groups to play the sensitivity reader at all times you can do your own research jesus fucking christ you are allowed to research things you are allowed to know things about antisemitism

white goyim want to play the oppression olympics soooo bad i am still having to debate whether jewish people were more affected than queer people by the holocaust or not (spoiler: this isn't a debate you just want to feel important)

no one on twitter has critical thinking abilities. this is news to no one

'well it's because VILLAINS are supposed to be BAD' that was not the point of this discourse and you know it

people start breaking out the antisemitic language and get defensive when jewish people are understandably upset. 'well you shouldn't have started discourse if you didn't want to be called 'one of those'!!!!!' seems to be the general feeling

it's also worth noting that the majority of people who were being harassed were jewish + poc and the people doing the harassing were white goyim so like. idk i think there's a point to be made abt that

[aces-away]

Hi! I'm a writer who has a Jewish character, and I'd love to hear tips and info that could help me portray the fact that he's Jewish. When I did some light research, the main consensus I came to was that being Jewish is more than just a religion for most people. Since culture is really an experience, I was wondering if there's anything that you'd be willing to share so I can do a better job. The more the better, since I really don't know much except the basics of what NOT to do. Thanks :D

Hi! Thanks for reaching out! Keep in mind this is all from my own experience and there are plenty other jewish people with different ones, I highly recommend swinging around to several blogs and asking this if you want a more rounded character :)

First thing from personal experience: If your character is an Ashkenazi Jew like I am there is a good chance they have Yiddish words and terms sprinkled throughout their everyday speech. That leads to a lot of Goyim(non-jews) going "wait what was that word? What does it mean?"

For instance I used the term Tchotchkes the other day and when someone asked for an explanation I actually had trouble articulating it, i replied "Uh, y'know, tchotchkes....ummm...b-bobbles? Trinkets? Cute little decorations?" Because I've never had to use another word for it.

I often say Oy Vey the way other people say omg or 'big oof' etc. And if I'm emphasizing, I use Oy Gevult instead.

There are a lot of everyday microaggressions that jewish people face! Such as "oh! You dont look jewish!" Which is one hundred percent an insult to us, like what am I SUPPOSE to look like? There's also "you talk about being jewish a lot" and "but like, the holocaust was forever ago, you havent faced anything since then" and "you sound funny when you pronounce words like that"(like using the Chet- a sound that comes more from your throat than your mouth) and many others. I'm vocal about it when people say this to me, but only if I'm in a comfortable and safe setting, otherwise my brain goes through a million ways me correcting them could go wrong or dangerous for me.

As the youngest sibling, and second youngest cousin, I had to learn to be assertive and vocal at family dinners or I would not be heard. There is a lot of cross talking and multiple conversations going on at once. If you dont speak up and keep yourself in the conversation, you'll probably end up just sitting there while waiting for the food to be finished.

If you have tattoos or piercings you cannot be buried in a jewish cemetery so if you want to be buried with family you would not get body decorations.

There is a strong vying for relatable jewish characters by jewish people as most in television and books are crappy stereotypes and antisemitic tropes.

For many pale jews being called "white" is actually quite uncomfortable.

If things are going south politically one of my first thoughts are often "do I have any friends that would hide me" and "where will I have to hide my Jewishness to stay safe" etc. There is a lot of generational trauma that comes with being Jewish and often the thought process goes unnoticed by Goyim.

That instant connection you feel when it's you and one other jewish person in a sea of goyim, esp. Christian goyim, is often like that LOOK 2 women share when a man is talking, if that makes sense.

Due to our history jewish people are often very social-equality minded and are part of movements and protests.

REMINDER this is all from my own experience, I would say check out pages like @progressivejudaism and @jewish-privilege for knowledge and for more day to day experiences/ideas look for @jewish-people-problems and @littlegoythings

That's all I can think of right now, sorry if it makes no sense I am very tired lol.

Honestly just also feel free to look up "jewish" and "jewish stuff" and "actually jewish" on my blog as well I'm sure theres a bunch of stuff there.

[psychologeek]

Thank you. I couldn't watch the video mentioned - i think it might been deleted?

I apologize in advance. I wanted to comment on this for a long time, but only now got to it. And now I'm hungry and tired and grieving. So may not be fully coherent.

I just want to make it very clear I DON'T try to downplay or ignore the holocaust for Romani people. I just don't feel like I can talk about it, as I don't have good enough understanding of it. I don't know how communities adapted and recovered, after.

Would anyone have online places to read/learn? I tried in the past to learn more of culture and talking to actually Romani people, but I'm also very aware this is pretty close traditions, and I don't want to be disrespectful.

And this is a hard topic - but I don't know how to ask about ways of mourning and respect (if it's even appropriate? Is it something you talk about?). I don't know how to ask about the ways communities survived and kept going, staples scarring around the hollow parts where people used to be. I grew up reading my people's stories. But I haven't got to read a similar story written by Romanis.

(and maybe it doesn't matter. Because we all lived and died the same. But it does - it does, because culture and traditions are crucial. Because me and you may mourn completely differently about the same person. It's important, because sayings like "we're all the same" tend to erase the ways we are uniquely beautiful, turn everyone into a very simple, pale, shade of who we are.)

~

I want to add another aspect (as a Jewish, non-american person):

I think that the holocaust is (for now) unforgettable, bc Jews don't forget. We are vowed and doomed to remember. Though still, 20% of USA gen Z don't believe the holocaust happened.

This day, we mourn things that happened 1,900-3,000 years ago. And we grieve those disasters like it happened to our grandparents.

But I think the main thing is- we remember, and we must make others remember that as well, because it's ALWAYS happening. Every ~50 years there's a major disaster aimed at Jewish people. You just don't hear about most of them-

(you probably didn't hear about Khminyetskey Pogroms, or the Pogroms in 1919 in Ukraine ("kill the jews, save Ukraine") and 1929 (Palestine Eretz Yisrael), you surely never heard of the Muzaa exile that killed 80% of the Jewish population of Sana'a (Yemen), or about the Orphans' Decree.

(I can go on and on and on. It's a long list. But I put it here bc this I just to say - we have to talk about it. We have to make people remember and talk about it, because it was the first time in history that Goyim, as a collective, went "oh, umm. That was too much." About jews being killed. And we need to keep this feeling. Because people love dead Jews, and we need to constantly remind them it's a Bad Thing.)

~

I also think that part of the way people remember it, especially in the USA, is still framed by ww2 propaganda and the need to "be the best people".

~

And maybe more than all - I think it's because it's easier to care about the people you don't see.

I might be wrong here - please correct me!

But from my understanding, people don't think about Romani people as "my neighbours". There's a lot of exoticism in this, like talking about "those interesting communities in Europe."

While jews... well, you can't really avoid those dirty bastards. (I had several posts about how Jewish stereotypes and discrimination are in the very core of many facilities. I can link later, if anyone is interested.)

Short thing is - people can't hate "weak people" and feel good with themselves. So they must not-hate, or make those people "legit targets"

How?

By turning themselves into the heroes of the story ("WE saved the poor jews from the bad Nazis. Those dirty bastards should be grateful!") and by turning the target into a not-so-weak ("They are white, so it's okay to hate them!"). Now to keep this status quo, all evidence and facts must be ignored or reversed.

And that's how you get that weird mixture of jews (USA stats) as: the most hate-crimed religious group, slowly taking the crown for most HC group in general; results like 25% of employees wouldn't promote a Jewish person; multiple bomb threats, physical and verbal attacks -

But people would still say "Jews are white - they are privileged!"

~

This is BEFORE you consider the erasure of the holocaust in north Africa. There were concentration and labour camps in Morroco, Lybia, Tunisia, (and iirc also Algeria). There were trains to death camps from those countries, that were ruled by Italy or Germany. There WAS a ghetto in Japan (Shanghai), were Jewish people were concentrated and not allowed to leave. Though it was relatively safe, besides that. No death camps in that area. Yayyy.

There was also a mass pogrom in Iraq in 1942 (the Farhud), which the survivors are considered holocaust survivors, as the events leading to this were related to the war.

~

Anyway. Yes. Sorry.

I'd probably erase or delete this in the morning.

Idk if you heard about this Yuval situation I found a video of what he said https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRodABfm/

I agree what he said wasn't good, but the way other people are making comments and videos saying the Holocaust was a white genocide and white-on-white hate is so wrong and ignorant to say. It just rubs me so wrong, and I hate it so much that people are saying that because every single time they keep talking about the Holocaust, they just bring up Jewish people and leave out Romani people as a whole. And a part of me just feels so upset about it because the number of times I cried after listening to stories of my grandparents explaining the stuff they saw and went through during the Holocaust and how many family members they lost just breaks my heart so much, and that I have so many family members I didn't get to meet yet. I'm just upset about people erasing Romani people from the Holocaust, and I just wanted to ask you about your take on this. 

Yeah I saw Florian's tiktok talking about it. And besides the obvious anti-Romani racism (I won't add anything on the matter because I 100% agree with you) let me just add it's really disingenuous, offensive and downright antisemitic to hear people define the holocaust as a white on white crime. Jewish people for almost their entire history have faced pogroms, assault, genocides, harassment, disenfranchisement and impoverishment precisely because they were not considered white. In fact, white supremacists think of Jewish people as the polar opposite of the white race. This is the logic that was used by Nazis to justify the holocaust. Posthumously considering Jewish victims as white because that's what we would consider them today is a rewriting of holocaust history and a misunderstanding of historical antisemitism.

Florian's tiktok actually pissed me off. He saw people saying "I don't care about the holocaust because the victims were white" and his answer was "no you should care because actually, brown people were targeted too!", that is not a good answer. The real question people should ask themselves is: why isn't the murder of 6 million Jews enough for them to care?

By dividing Holocaust victims into 'white' (Jewish) and 'brown' (black or Romani), people are projecting our modern understanding of racial dynamics onto a historical period where racism worked differently than it does today. Dividing holocaust victims into either white or brown harms our understanding of what the holocaust was, what antisemitism, anti-Romani racism and anti-black racism are, and the history of all the people that were targeted during the holocaust — this is a really big sacrifice to make just to accommodate (mostly) American people and to fit into their own worldview.

I am saying all this as a non-Jewish, leftist Romani woman graduating in holocaust studies. It is important for us to address antisemitism on the left and in antiracist and feminist circles. So many people nowadays are pissed off whenever Jewish people are centered on discussions about the Holocaust and it's disgusting.

Anyway. I agree with you that this 'Holocaust is white on white crime' argument is fucked up because it erased Romani and Black African victims but I would also add that it is also a complete rewriting of history that is used to argue that it's okay if we don't care about antisemitism.

[psychologeek]

They pulled out their teeth.

Did you know that?

Those who had golden teeth had those pulled out to be melted, for maximum profit.

Do you wear glasses?

Those who did, had those taken away.

Do you like your hair?

Too bad.

It's shaved now.

Do you like your clothes? Do you like your necklace? Your earrings?

Shnel, hand this over!

You aren't a Human Being now.

This is a factory. An industrial complex.

Main product:

Death

Holocaust (and culture appropriation)

(TW: holocaust, death camps, sexual assaults, rape, industrial murder. I will put the graphic shit undercut. Include children death and human experiments).

Sometimes I think about how fucked up it is that for most non-jews (and some jews) "The Holocaust" is Anne Frank and Auschwitz "where they killed people".

I think about the fucking, the goddamn AUDACITY some people have to take our trauma and use it as a tool. As a lesson.

People that for them the holocaust is nothing but a story, a bunch of facts, probably as aware of it as they're aware of the crusaders.

(Once upon a time, in a far away land, there were Troubles)

People who didn't hear about it as children, who didn't grew up with six million and one-and-a-half million and yellow stars and quiet ceremony and Yizkor (remember).

That.

Would look at a pile of hats and bones and wigs and hair and make it about them.

But also

Sometimes I think about how wild it is, that this looks so horrific to them.

(And they never heard about half of it.)

Like.

Dear.

Deary.

We are used to death. We are so used to being murdered, and loosing loved ones by hate, that half of our culture is basically based on it.

I think about how non-jews keep talking about the holocaust, like it's a clean cut, like it's a thing that was, like it's that's all that was - there were people hiding, and there were gas chambers, and that's it.

And I remember being a kid (maybe 10 yo?) reading a kid/ya book that was an autobiography, and I remember the writer (who was a young teen at the time, and pretended to be a Christian German) wrote about someone came into the shower and touched him. (Writer) Panicked, and turned around - and then the other man asked him "wait- are you jewish?"

As a kid, I remember that this is all that was in it.

As an adult, I remember that scene, sometimes. And I can have a pretty clear idea on why the older man didn't tell about the kid.

I remember, several years ago, reading about a therapy group for holocaust survivors that were sexually assaulted.

I remember reading about an old lady, that (70 years later) told about what happened to her when she hide away with her sister, (I think they were two, or three girls?) she was sixteen, or maybe fourteen. I remember

"I did it so they'll share their food with us".

~

I think about people talking about the "death camp" Auschwitz, and how someone said (those who went there, were the lucky ones. When the newbies asked what happened, where are their families? We just pointed at the burning chimneys of Birkenau ,and the smoke.)

~

I remember the HUNDREDS who died once the camps were "freed", because they didn't know the dangers of eating two pieces of bread after a long period of starving.

I remember the massive Jewish community of Poland that was just. Erased. 99% of 3 million population pre-war. Whole communities we only remember and mention as the community's name (and even that is a very long list.)

I remember how people remember it as "German jews" (and some Poland) - but it's not. My grandma had cousins in Debretsen, Hungary. And it's Ukraine and France and Morocco and Greece and Lybia and Lithuania and Latvia and almost everywhere in Europe and North Africa

(except for Denmark. we love Denmark. My grandad's step-grandma survived there. She immigrated to her family in Israel after that.)

~

Idk if Goyim ever heard about Mangele. I wonder, how many of them heard during their childhood about:

The eye experiments, where he injected serums in people's (living) eyes, to see what would happen?

His obsession about twins. The toddlers that got their back skinned, then stitched together in "to see what will happen".

(They died after four days of misery.)