#Gabriel is the only one who actually followed chuck’s last orders (aka love humans)

[mittensmorgul]

I always thought Anna said "only an angel can kill an angel" because the idea that a human (or anything else) could ever obtain an angel blade was so ridiculous, they didn't even consider it. As for Cas not knowing who was killing angels, I now personally interpret that Cas was such a blind soldier (or recently back from obedience training with Naomi) that the idea a fellow angel would be working against them just didn't compute until he saw it for himself. Shaky, I know, but it's all I got 😜

Confession: I am watching 4.16 AT THIS MOMENT. As I type this. It’s on the tnt loop this morning :’D

First off, it’s not Anna who says that line, it’s URIEL. Aka, the antagonist of this episode:

URIEL: Alastair was much more powerful than we had imagined.CASTIEL: No. No demon can overpower that trap. I made it myself. We've been friends for a long time, Uriel. Fought by each other's sides, served together away from home, for what seems like forever. We're brothers, Uriel. Pay me that respect. Tell me the truth.URIEL: The truth is, the only thing that can kill an angel...A blade slides out of URIEL's sleeve into his grasp.URIEL: ...is another angel.

What Anna says, before she stabs him:

CASTIEL: You can't win, Uriel. I still serve God.URIEL: You haven't even met the man. There is no will. No wrath. No God.Between each phrase, URIEL punches CASTIEL. The last time, he raises his fist and is stabbed through the neck from behind.ANNA: Maybe. Or maybe not. But there's still me.

I just wanted that clarified, because it does change the tone of the line, and informs how much stock we should put into that judgment, you know? Considering the level of manipulation Uriel employed throughout s4 to this point, it’s pretty blatantly Part Of The Grand Plan, and therefore should be examined critically because of that. Uriel... wasn’t stating this as a blatant fact, but more in the way of a villain monologue confession “Yes, ’twas I that burned down the house!” sort of deal, you know? Okay, back to the actual question! :D

My working theory is “It’s Chuck’s fault.” I mean, the show just confessed that everything bad is actually Chuck’s fault. But it’s kinda been saying that since s4, too. Yes, a lot of s4 (and 4.16 really began this framing) as “a betraying element in Heaven who sided with Lucifer causing dissent and disobedience among the angels, but when asked, all the angels and archangels stated their reason for going forward with the apocalypse was that it was God’s Will, you know? This was the Grand Plan. But it went deeper than that, too.

When asked why now, and when Dean asked why me, the answer at the bottom of it all was because I’m tired. Raphael in s6, Gabriel in s5... they just wanted it all to be over. They were tired of trying to understand and live by God’s Grand Plan.

But Gabriel has also said, in 5.08: Why do you think I've always taken such an interest in you?Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always.

It was always gonna be Dean and Sam. Gabriel started messing with them years earlier. We know Chuck began writing the Supernatural books at the beginning of the series, with The Woman In White, but that he’d been setting things in motion for the apocalypse to happen since long before that, at least as far back as 1973. Or possibly the earliest timeline point in canon-- When Sam met Samuel Colt and Dean killed a phoenix with it in 1863. You know, Chuck had to set all that up if wanted Sam and Dean to actually have a chance of releasing the Leviathans, you know?

Even the orders Chuck supposedly left the angels with when he flapped off for parts unknown long before the start of canon were contradictory, forcing them to choose which set to follow. Cas’s line has always been that the purpose of angels was to watch over humanity, while other angels (Michael, Raphael, et al) have always insisted that their purpose was to enact the apocalypse to bring God back to the world. So what did Chuck actually tell the angels? BOTH things are probably true. The angels CHOSE what to do with the time that was given to them, and Cas always chose humanity, while others always chose obedience to the Grand Plan to end it all. It was still always a CHOICE. Even 5.22 framed it as a choice-- Lucifer told Michael they could just walk away, but Michael was convinced that they had to go through with the fight because it was destined. He could’ve chosen differently, but everything that had led him to that point had convinced him that he was making the right choice in fulfilling that destiny. Only TFW overrode that choice.

Because Chuck manipulated EVENTS and SITUATIONS. And then left the choices to PEOPLE. He reminds me so much of Ruby in s4: I just gave you the options, and you chose the right path every time.

We’ve seen the mind-boggling level at which Chuck can manipulate events and people-- snapping his fingers and everyone on the planet can just lie again. But compare what he is willing to snap his fingers over, and what he makes excuses for and refuses to snap his fingers over. And what he ACTIVELY MANIPULATES into being despite his stated intentions, you know?

He actively manipulated 4.18 into being. Yes, it was Ruby manipulating Sam throughout s4 into total reliance on her, total alienation from Dean, and making him believe that her way was the only way to “stop Lilith.” She’d stated it from the start, from s3, that the only thing she wanted was “Lilith dead.” And that was TRUE. She just... dodged telling them the WHOLE truth.

I think Chuck is very much the same. Very much the angels in s4 and s5 like Zachariah who “avoided certain truths to manipulate you.”

And in retrospect, Chuck would’ve had the power to just snap his fingers and make every angel just forget they had an angel blade for half a year (or a year, or even several years as he ramped up the events of the apocalypse). But he also could’ve snapped his fingers and made the angels content to watch over humanity for an eternity, you know?

Because the real question Sam and Dean shouldn’t have been asking wasn’t “Why Us?” The real question was “why NOW?” If all of these events had been destined since the beginning of time, why was Heaven and Hell scrambling to make it all happen now?

Cupids had to make John and Mary Winchester meet, fall in love, and produce Sam and Dean. Demons had to interfere throughout Sam’s life (we learned from Lucifer in 4.22). And events of s2 had to be arranged to push Dean to sell his soul for Sam in 2.22, but really it had been the events of Dean’s entire life that had prepared him to actually do so.

The entire apocalypse could’ve fallen apart if ANY of these things hadn’t happened in the prescribed order, you know? Which we saw the proof of in 14.13. One wish on that pearl that pulled John out of his original timeline before the beginning of canon as we know it was enough to undo the work of angels and demons. The apocalypse just... never happened in that wish-changed universe.

So for something that was “always destined to happen,” it was shockingly easy to undo, you know? Just like Zachariah had the power to implant false memories in Dean and Sam in 4.17, just like Gabriel had the power to force them to “play their roles” in tv show after tv show, that’s kind of what Chuck’s been doing their entire lives.

In 5.08, Gabriel didn’t force words into their mouths, you know? He didn’t dictate what they would choose. Their free will remained intact. He was just nudging them to make the choices he wanted them to by dropping them into specific situations. And they still resisted, still kept trying to find another way out. I really do think 5.08 is an excellent metaphor for just how Chuck has been meddling in their lives all along (and again, that aspect of Chuck is very “Gabriel,” you know? He does have the other archangels’ characteristics as well, but his Chuck persona-- the part of him that waffled and denied he had the power to fix anything in 11.20-11.23, the part that taught himself guitar and wants to be pals with creation-- is basically Advanced Gabriel.

And just... deciding the angels shouldn’t have swords for a while could’ve just been an “interesting writing choice” for him at the time. Maybe he just wanted to see what would happen. Maybe he thought taking away their main weapon would make it easier to bring on the apocalypse.

Because I’m sitting here watching Alastair nearly killing Cas right now, and I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that in that situation, if Cas had an angel blade, he wouldn’t have pulled it out and stabbed Alastair with it. Instead he relied on Ruby’s knife to inflict pain on Alastair, even though it wasn’t able to actually kill Alastair. But an angel blade WOULD’VE killed Alastair, you know? And in theory, it would’ve killed Lilith, too...

During a season where most of the angels truly believed they were trying to STOP the apocalypse from happening (only a few knew the true plan, confessed by Zachariah in 4.22), if there HAD been a confrontation between an angel and Lilith before the end of the season, it would’ve been a matter of a bit of a stabbing and then BOOM no apocalypse, ever.

And this whole situation that Uriel created in 4.16 was framed as “we must stop the demon responsible for killing the angels!” As if his secondary plan was simply to foment dissent and distrust among the angels while intensifying the drive to battle the armies of Hell.

And through all of this, Cas’s lesson via Anna is about learning to choose for himself, to think for himself. Basically... he’s learning how to be human, and what it means to have free will.

It’s only after he’s resurrected by Chuck in 5.01 that he suddenly has an angel blade again. And it’s only after that point that ALL the angels suddenly have them. When NONE of them had angel blades throughout the entirety of s4.

So when Uriel said that in 4.16 (which... I’m literally watching that scene RIGHT NOW), I think it was literally true. Uriel had the only angel blade in existence as of that moment.

[enemymine2000]

SPN: Thoughts about 12x14 and 12x15

A lot of “Ah, hell, really? Not again?”-feelings here at first. But then my brain started to dig deeper.

We – the casual viewer – are meant to take things at face value. We are meant to believe that Sam genuinely switched sides and is now working on Dean to do too. We are meant to believe Ketch's seductions of the latter and his mindless enjoyment of hunting with Lucille (of all things).

But we – the not quite so casual viewer – know better.

We know, that Dean is more than a mindless hunter drone, whose only interests are sexual conquests, booze and rides. We know that Dean is able to hack with the best of them (R.I.P. Charlie!), so we know he can easily disprove Sam's claim of a new “find hunts”-app just because of that.

Also we know that Dean is a lying liar who lies professionally and as such can easily spot another liar, especially when the other is Sam, who can't lie his way out of a wet paper bag even when his life depends on it. The only exception being when Sam was soulless, because no conscience to rat him out.

A big hint to that effect is Dean's very on point attitude to lying to their victim of the week about the supernatural. It is a surrogate war. “Don't lie to her, especially not that clumsy” basically means “Don't lie to me, you know I can tell”.

And never forget the much discussed shampoo-line. Dean basically tells it to Sam's face: “I know your secrets!” But also: “Wash this gore from me and I am more than you can see.”

Which is a continuation of the previous episode and Ketch's seduction, that never was.

Yes, psychopath Ketch believes it to be, but Dean – and thus we – know better. Dean might have been hungry for a hunt, but he was not hungry for killing just to kill things. Very sadistically in Ketch's case. Because Dean is more than meets the eye and makes it into BMOL files.

Dean is the guy tasked with keeping the balance on this planet by God himself and he is in a place in his life, where he can accept that. Shown in the last episode with placing him smack dab in the middle of his “love triangle”, so basically between heaven and hell.

He the human, who had been monster and demon, between the demonic ex and the angelic whatever-to-be and managing the balance.

The King of Hell, who basically fled from his domain, the somewhat fallen angel, who goes to Heaven to talk it out with his hateful brethren, and the human, who holds it all together. Who can forgive and forget no matter who, as long as it is sincere. Who will hunt you down if you don't mean it.

I mean, Crowley is basically just still alive, because Dean was able to look beyond and see his reasons.

Crowley remains a demon at his core – no matter his sudden affinity for human emotions – so by old hunter's codex he is nonredeemable and to be put down. But he always acted on a codex on his own, demonic though it was, to uphold balance. Crowley only took what hell earned rightfully and when he stepped beyond that - *cough* Purgatory *cough* - he only did so in accordance with Heaven.

When Dean was a practically unbeatable weapon in Crowley's arsenal, he never misused him. Which, summer of love or not, is something one would not expect from the actual ruler of all things evil.

Cas in turn – well, one could argue, that he only truly came alive through Dean. Yes, he technically “was” for bilions of years, but being and being alive are two very distinct different things.

Castiel, angel of the Lord, was a warrior and only that. His brethren were his only true contact throughout his whole existence and they used him to further their respective agendas. One of which was raising the Righteous Man from Hell.

Cas was born the day his grace touched Dean's soul and has been reborn (sometimes quite literally, which is more than even Lucifer can say) ever since, whenever faced with a choice of his own.

Also still alive because of Dean, because if it wasn't for that pretty insistent human being Cas' would have guilt-tripped himself into oblivion.

If it were for the BMOL all three would need to be disposed off. They are monsters without exception and Ketch would kill each of them without a second thought.

That is something Sam still needs to truly grasp. Also that he would be on that list of monsters too, if he was not so damn useful as a hunter now. That with him being one of Azazel's chosen.

BTW, whatever happened to that? We got that flashback this season, but only with Sam as an unreliable narrator.

Has he lost his psychic powers completely? Or are they just dormant?

One could argue Gadreel healing Sam after the trials would purge that last remants of impurity from his system, but then Gadreel never finished the job and Sam was left to heal naturally after expelling the angel from his body. Not to forget that of the brothers Sam still has the better affinity with witch craft and spell work. (Where exactly lies the distinction?)

So, yes, Sam cozied up with BMOL. But he did so, because he could see how utterly lacking they are and his mother's life was literally at stake.

Dean goes along with it, because he knows there are things Sam is not telling and before he does not get the whole story, he will trust his brother. At the same time he knows his future will not be with the BMOL, because what they already had done to him/his family is already nonredeemable in his eyes.

So while he waits for the second shoe to drop he is looking out for a way to get his mother and brother to safety from the subsequential fall-out.

So, what else? Crowley has Lucifer utterly trapped. I knew as much when he told Lucifer to his face that they had his vessel rebuild from scratch.

Yes, the chains were a nice rustic touch, but please, we are talking archangel here! Currently the most powerful being on this planet and I'm supposed to believe he is held only by some angel-binding chains? Classic subterfuge.

I can't believe Crowley truly wants the nephilim torn apart. Least to torture Lucifer. Yes, Lucifer has been mean to our resident King of Hell, but if Crowley truly would have wanted the nephilim, he would have had Kelly right there, when they expelled Lucifer from the president's body. He had the time to mess with the spell to send the archangel into his vessel, he would have had the time to snatch and grab his baby mama. Especially since he is not restricted by human means of transportation.

He might want the nephilim. But he will want it for the same reasons he wanted Amara. Power. A nephilim is so powerful that angels fear it and there is a decree not to create one (aka “The Sacred Oath”). Maybe this one even more so, since it was sired by the only (relatively sane) archangel left. One unaffected by the big fall – wings still intact and all (very nice for SPN to show us that much).

Yes, I don't doubt that Crowley wants to torture Lucifer, wants to humiliate him, wants to get even for what was done to him. But Crowley would not have become King of Hell, if he did not know better than to do something that probably will come back to bite him in the ass. Killing the actual devil's child is such a thing as long as Lucifer is still alive.

Since Crowley currently has no means – he destroyed the Lance of Michael and a lot of “Hands of God” were rendered useless last season and we know the Colt does not work – and plans – otherwise he would not have imprisoned Lucifer in his vessel – of disposing permanently of Hell's erstwhile ruler, he will not do such thing.

Remains Cas.

Last we have seen, he's back on his way to Heaven to talk to Joshua. That is if Kelvin had not lied in that regard. I for one don't trust the guy, because angels are dicks and they have some very big issues with Cas.

But then the argument of him having the most field experience is legit. No one of the Heavenly Host but Cas – apart from maybe Lucifer (and Gabriel, when he was still alive – I miss him!) - has ever wandered earth that much.

But his special kind of field experience is not really needed if it were only to find and dispose of Kelly, respectively her child. Angels have done similar things before and even taking into account that their numbers have dwindled and the top level bureaucrats are all but burnt wing marks on the ground now, they are still organized enough to manage a level 1 smiting. (Which probably is the most concentrated effort angels had to do ever since God left billions of years ago.)

We can not forget how truly deep the hatred of angel-kind runs towards Cas. Even Hanna had been turned against him. Because they all believe him not only to be responsible for so many deaths of their kind and the closing for Heaven's gates, but because of his love for… humanity.

Basically every angel we have ever met apart from Cas himself has acknowledged that special love for… humanity. (Well, Cas did too just a couple of episodes ago, but we're still waiting on the answer.)

Loving humanity however is not the problem. That is what God commanded of all of his angels. That is what ultimately triggered the Mark of Cain on Lucifer's arm and thus his fall. Angels are meant and programmed to love humanity.

They are however forbidden from laying with humankind and thus to love/make love to one human. The Sacred Oath. Cas has been accused of having broken it practically ever since the Apocalypse.

Cas, being the angel/human hybrid that he has become, he can now see beyond such orders, such oaths. His brethren can not.

As seen with Ishim – hypocrite that he was – they demand them to be followed no matter what. And as Cas himself has once done, they simply do. They don't know choice for themselves.

So whatever Joshua might have to say to Cas, it can't be good. Unless Joshua still talks with God, who we know to have taken a special interest in this particular angel, but then Chuck is on his sibling retreat and very hands-off and, well, Chuck. And Chuck is kind of a dick.

I saw some speculating that this will be the build-up for Cas' ultimate choice for humanity, turning human himself, giving up his grace, etc.

I still hold out hope for my hypothesis of Cas becoming nephilim per choice. Since the show is no longer about black and white, either or, but about balance.

Cas is the best of Heaven and earth combined, why take a part of him away and make him less than that?