#Funnily it runs better on my desktop than my laptop which should NOT be the case but hey. I'm not complaining

[royalarchivist]

Bobby: Bye Jaiden great to have you here as always :)

Jaiden: AWW!!! 🥺💕

Roier: Oh, but when it's ME? But when it's ROIER—?!

Happy Mother's Day to q!Jaiden. I miss her, and our favorite little Mama's boy. 🥲

[ttstranscripts]

Transcript of The Talk Show Episode 3

Title: Email, Spam Filtering, Digital Photography

Hosts: John Gruber, Dan Benjamin

Release date: 17 July 2007

Description: We discuss John’s obsession with spam, and spam filtering techniques, and broach the subject of digital photography.

Dan Benjamin: You were obsessed with the iPhone, you got the iPhone, and now you’re obsessed with email on the iPhone, specifically we’re talking about spam. So somebody like you, you get a lot of spam. A lot of spam.

John Gruber: And you don’t?

Benjamin: I get a little bit. I don’t get — I mean, I guess the encoder may have helped because where I have publicized the email address, it’s been encoded, so it helped a little. But I mean, I still get a decent amount. Nowhere near what you get, I’m sure.

Gruber: I think I get around 500 or 600 spams a day.

Benjamin: A day? Oh my gosh.

Gruber: It depends. Somewhere between 300 and 600 typically.

Benjamin: I don’t get anywhere near that many. So what was your solution to handle this?

Gruber: Well, we should say what the problem is.

Benjamin: What is the problem?

Gruber: The problem is that for years I’ve relied on client-side spam filtering with C-Command’s SpamSieve, which is a Macintosh program, it integrates with every Macintosh email program that I know of.

Benjamin: The best, I think, easily the best client-side anti-spam application that exists for the Mac. They should be a sponsor of this show.

Gruber: Well, everybody should be a sponsor of this show. Who shouldn’t sponsor, who wouldn’t want to sponsor this show?

Benjamin: I can’t think of a single company that wouldn’t benefit from that. That’s kind of silly.

Gruber: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I can’t think of one either.

Benjamin: But of all of them right now, I think SpamSieve should be the number one guy on the phone. When we put this out there, the phone better ring. That’s all I have to say.

Gruber: [laughs]

Benjamin: But go on, go on. All Mac clients...

Gruber: For years I’ve managed it and it’s — how much spam I get hasn’t really been a problem because SpamSieve’s been running at somewhere around 99.8 or 99.9 percent accuracy for years for me, literally, I think since 2003 or something like that. But the problem is, because it’s client-side, the spam filtering happens, your client checks for mail, and before mail gets into your inbox, it passes it off to SpamSieve, and SpamSieve says “good”, “good”, “bad”, “bad”, “bad”, “bad”, “bad”. So when you check mail with your iPhone, without any kind of server-side spam filtering, all the spam is still there in the inbox, which for me would literally be hundreds of spams a day. It would honestly make using the iPhone for checking my email impossible. So the obvious option would be to — if you wanted to just do the simplest thing possible — would be to just set up a computer with SpamSieve on it and have it check mail continuously, never go to sleep. That doesn’t really work for me because my only computer that I use is a laptop, which I take with me places, so it’s often sleeping. I do put it to sleep at night. In theory, I wouldn’t necessarily mind leaving it running all night, but when I’m actually taking the notebook with me, or I’m traveling, I’m in an airport, and it’s in my backpack — that’s not feasible. So I could set up an old computer here in my home office and have it set up to run SpamSieve continuously, but that seems wasteful to me to have an entire — my own computer set up just for — my own personal spam filtering computer.

Benjamin: So what are the other solutions? You came up with one, a free one, that’s actually kind of — I think it’s interesting, it’s a neat idea, but I think it’s just a cut above having your own dedicated Mac in a corner running SpamSieve all the time.

Gruber: Right. So what I’m doing is — what I’ve long done is set up my email so that all of the addresses I use are really forwarders to another account that’s using an address that I never publicize, never give anyone, just to have the flexibility that I could redirect the mail somewhere else before it goes to that mailbox, and then I just set a Reply-To: header so that the mail that I send looks like it’s coming from the forwarding address. So what I did is I changed all the email addresses I use to point to Gmail accounts and then back to — so it goes from a forwarder at my domain, the address I want at daringfireball.net, goes to Gmail. Gmail is set to automatically forward back to my real mailbox name at daringfireball.net. And a lot of people, a lot of the stuff I’ve read said Gmail spam filtering is pretty accurate, and my results after doing it for about a week is that, yeah, it’s really, really good. It catches at least 99 percent of all spam. And more importantly, it doesn’t catch false positives, it doesn’t flag good mail as spam. Funnily enough, the two messages that it did that I caught just by looking through the Gmail spam mailbox were from you.

Benjamin: [laughs] That’s great.

Gruber: But one thing you can do is you can upload your contacts, your address book, export it to a comma-separated value file, upload it to Gmail, and it will automatically whitelist anybody in your address book. Now, the downside of that is that one time only you can upload a file, it doesn’t automatically — there’s no way to sync it. But so far, after a week, it’s a very good solution.

Benjamin: Well, that’s actually — it’s a neat idea, I think it’s a great idea if you already have your email set up, if you’re already doing the forwarding thing. I have a few aliases that I use, but I try to limit that. So the company that I use for my email services is Webmail.us, they’re great, and I like having things hosted there just because if I decide to switch hosting companies or if I have multiple domains or whatever, it’s — and I think it’s like $10–12 a month for pretty much as many email addresses as you’d ever want. Yeah, I mean, you can get free email hosting, and you can do the Gmail thing, which I’ve tried, it just never really worked for me. I don’t like using a web application as my primary email client. I tried it, I couldn’t get used to it.

Gruber: But that’s the thing with Gmail, I actually don’t use it.

Benjamin: You’re just using the forwarding, purely forwarding. But for me, what I like — Webmail actually has a really, really good, in-built spam filtering process that’s very customizable, you can have it put it into a separate spam folder, you can have it preface the subject line with “spam”, there’s all kinds of things that you can do and it’s sort of built in. I still am using SpamSieve, but I turned on this spam filtering option for the times when I knew I’d be checking with the iPhone to see how it would do, and it’s actually done a really, really good job. But I mean, this is to me, I think the people who are in the job of doing spam filtering should be thrilled about the iPhone.

Gruber: Oh, definitely.

Benjamin: Because more than any device I think it necessitates the fact — now you have to have spam filtering. And I don’t really anticipate that Apple’s going to put spam filtering into the iPhone mail app. That doesn’t seem like their priority.

Gruber: No, I don’t think so either. Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened. Obviously, the desktop mail client has junk filtering. But I’ve never been particularly impressed — and I only recently switched to Mail, so I can’t say that I really tested it extensively, but I have tried it.

Benjamin: It’s nowhere near as good as SpamSieve. It doesn’t even get close. It does okay for the most obvious spams, and it has a lot of incorrect positives where it tags things that aren’t —

Gruber: That’s what I always found was that even when — I think there’s an option to say, you know, “people in my” — I guess what the problem was, it was often catching — because I get a lot of email from readers who aren’t in my address book, and it would often catch — because I’ve tried using mail for IMAP before for some of my email, and I never thought that the built-in junk filtering in Mail was accurate enough. The one thing I really wish that the iPhone mail client supported that it doesn’t, is flagging.

Benjamin: Yeah. I saw that tweet and I commented on that. To me that was something that it didn’t occur to me until I was actually really using the iPhone for email, when I was spending more than just — I wonder if I got a new email, oh yeah, okay — but actually using it as a device to read and reply to email for more than a few minutes, that was the first thing that occurred to me. Because I flag email all the time that I want to — something I want to come back to, something I need to respond to, but I can’t get to it right now, or I need to investigate it before I can answer. And not having — that’s a huge, huge thing on the wish list right now. I think a lot of people have to be feeling that way.

Gruber: I love the idea of flagging because it’s one of those things where it’s like the 80/20 rule, where the simplest possible thing goes 80 percent of the way to solving what you need. Because you can always say, well, maybe you want some kind of full — you want labels, or tagging, or all sorts of stuff that you could do with messaging to say, this message is part of the project, I want to put tags on it, blah blah blah. Really though, just a simple flag, which is supported on a lot of IMAP clients, to say “This message is flagged”. At least from the iPhone’s perspective where you really can’t add a lot of stuff like tagging, and full labeling interface really wouldn’t fit in with the minimalist UI. Flagging really would. The way that you can mark a read message unread, there’s like a little hide/unhide details, and then there’s a thing you click that when you’ve read a message, you can mark it back to unread. Right there, I would love it if in addition to being able to mark it read, if you could mark it flagged. And when you hide that, you wouldn’t even have to see it. But the reason I need it, here’s typically — when I read email on the iPhone, there’s messages that I’m done with, that I can either respond to or just leave it marked as read because I don’t ever need to see it again, but then there’s a lot of times I’ll get messages where I can’t deal with it now because I’m on my iPhone. Because maybe I need to write a real reply, so it’s going to wait until I go back and I have my real keyboard and a real mail client. Maybe it’s because it’s something that requires me to do a lot of work on. Something I need to come back to. But I’ve already read it. So what I have to do now is mark it unread, so I know I’ll come back to it. But that’s sort of abusing unread.

Benjamin: So we need that. We’ve got to have that.

Gruber: Right, because I like to use unread to mean new.

Benjamin: Unread means “I haven’t seen this”. There’s one more topic I want to talk to you about. And I think the best way to bring it up is to completely change subjects and start talking about what you were doing in San Francisco that was weird. I liked it, I thought it was cool, but it was pretty weird. You would take your... [a noise is heard in the background] I don’t know if you guys can hear this, do you hear the thunder in the background here? [rain drums in the background]

Gruber: I thought that was your dog.

Benjamin: I don’t know if it’s going to come through on the mic, but I mean, it is crazy storming out here.

Gruber: Yeah, it did.

Benjamin: Another thing we need to do once we have a real website is we need to have a section for links, things that we talk about. [loud thunder in the background] Could you hear that?

Gruber: Yeah, I could.

Benjamin: So that I could, like, link the picture of what I’m seeing outside the window. It’s torrential, it’s like — Noah saw something almost like this. Anyway, so we’re in San Francisco and we’re hanging out, we go to these different places, and you’d pull this little camera out of your pocket, and you’d put it on top of your beer glass, and you’d have this weird look on your face, you’re sort of staring at whoever you’re trying to take a picture of, but you looked really creepy when you were doing it, and then the camera would kind of — I guess it would go into an autofocus sort of mode where it would try to gauge the right focus and everything, and it would flash the light repeatedly really, really fast, sort of blinding the person. And some of the pictures actually came out pretty good when you were doing that. But the reason I mention this, you’ve taken some really cool pictures with this new camera that you’re using, and it was sort of a disappointment to me to see you switch to this new camera after you’ve been using the Canon Digital Rebel for so long. Right after I get my Digital Rebel, you show up with this little — was it a Ricoh, is that how you say it?

Gruber: Right, a Ricoh — actually, I’m not 100 percent sure if it’s R[i]coh or R[ai]coh, I don’t know. I think it’s R[i]coh, I always say R[i]coh.

Benjamin: “Ricoh” like “vista”.

Gruber: Right. Ricoh GR Digital.

Benjamin: And it does an awesome job, and I’ll see one of these pictures, and I’m new to the digital SLR world, you’ve given me a lot of great advice about — you and James Duncan Davidson and a couple of other people guided me on lens purchases and stuff. So as soon as I go out, I get the camera, I get a couple cool lenses, now in my mind I’m thinking, okay, how do I take that kind of picture. So I’ll look at the picture, I’ll click the “More settings”, and I’ll learn, oh, this is the kind of lens he used, this is what the aperture was. And now you’re walking around with this Ricoh camera, which is irrelevant to what I’m doing. What’s up with that?

Gruber: Well, it’s a point-and-shoot, so the difference is that I can put it in my pocket as opposed to an SLR. But Ricoh is a Japanese company, I don’t know, are there any camera companies that aren’t Japanese? But they don’t really have a North American presence, they don’t officially have any kind of North American retail presence because they sort of see the North American market as being obsessed with things like how many megapixels and what length the zoom is on the lens, you know, people just go into Best Buy and pick the camera with the most megapixels and most zoom in the lens.

Benjamin: Didn’t you order this one from overseas too?

Gruber: Well, I didn’t get it overseas, I got it from a place called Popflash, which is a camera reseller. I guess they call themselves a camera broker where they sell cameras that aren’t officially sold in North America. There’s another place called Adorama in New York that sells the Ricoh GR or other Ricoh cameras. But the thing with the Ricoh, and people are always so surprised when they hear it, it’s $600, it’s a $600 point-and-shoot.

Benjamin: That’s essentially almost the same price as getting a Digital Rebel XTi body.

Gruber: Right, pretty much. And they say, well, how much zoom does it have? And the answer is none, it’s just a fixed length, 28 mm lens. And people are like, “Well, why would you spend $600 on a camera that doesn’t even have a zoom?” And it’s like, because a non-zoom, a prime lens has better... [a phone rings loudly] What the hell is that? Jesus.

Benjamin: That’s my iPhone. [laughs] Hold on.

Gruber: [laughs]

Benjamin: [on the phone] Hello?

Gruber: Patch ’em in!

Benjamin: [on the phone] What time do you guys close?

Gruber: Ask them if they want to sponsor a podcast.

Benjamin: [on the phone] All right, I’ll be there, thank you. [to Gruber] Hey, John, my glasses are ready.

Gruber: Excellent.

Benjamin: My new glasses. I’m very excited. All right, please continue with what you were saying. I’m not going to edit that out. No editing.

Gruber: Oh, why would you want to edit that.

Benjamin: Did you hear that ring? See, that’s one of the things I like about the iPhone, yeah, you can’t use any sound that you want for your ringer, but you can pick a really cool sound that will not only go through the entire house and be heard anywhere but would scare the crap out of you in the process.

Gruber: You use the old-fashioned phone ringer. I’ve kept mine on Marimba. Because I want people to know I have an iPhone.

Benjamin: [laughs] Right.

Gruber: Hey, do you do the thing where you assign different people their own custom ringtones?

Benjamin: Can you do that on the iPhone?

Gruber: Yeah, you just go into contacts and assign a ringtone.

Benjamin: Oh, I’m going to do that now.

Gruber: Or maybe you go into ringtones and assign to contact. I think you do it by going into the ringtones and you can say “Assign to contact”.

Benjamin: I’m going to do that. I haven’t done that, but I will do, and I’ll assign Marimba to you. So, continue.

Gruber: But anyway, learning everything there is to know about photography is an enormous amount of work, and I certainly only know a very, very small amount of it. But it’s another instance of the 80/20 rule where you can learn the 80 percent of the basics, the fundamentals of photography very, very — it’s all very simple. You really can learn it very quickly, and then the other 20 percent will take you forever, and it requires, like, an encyclopedia.

Benjamin: So you’re saying, you can go and drop $600, get a 28 mm point-and-shoot from overseas, put it on a beer glass in a pitch black restaurant, and take some good pictures?

Gruber: Well, one of the advantages to a fixed, a prime lens, a lens that doesn’t zoom, is that typically it has better optical quality. It’s sharper, it gets better color saturation, and often it’s faster, faster meaning that it works with less light.

Benjamin: You can still take a decent picture inside without a full sun.

Gruber: Right. I almost never shoot with a flash. Even to the point where I end up not being able to even get an exposure.

Benjamin: You’d rather not take a picture at all as opposed to taking one of those deer-in-the-headlights, washed out, ghoulish-looking flash pictures?

Gruber: Right, because really to take a good-looking flash picture you need a real flash, an expensive external flash that gets mounted on top of the camera, and you need to know how to do things like bounce it off the ceiling.

Benjamin: When I was speaking at Rails conference, there were all these strobes going off, flashing all over the ceiling, and afterwards I asked Duncan about it and he’s like, “Yeah, yeah, that’s how I use the flash”, because he had this elaborate rig set up so that the flash never actually — it was always indirect light.

Gruber: So, like, Duncan with a very, very nice and very expensive equipment can take tremendously, just beautiful photographs that are actually lit by flash or partially lit by flash. But using the on-camera flash, even on an SLR, it’s almost always going to look bad. So I just try to do whatever I can not to. So resting the camera on something like a glass or resting it on the table, it’s just a way to keep — if there’s not enough light to take a long exposure, if the camera is going to — if you have to take a long exposure, if it’s going to be opened for a fifteenth of a second or a twentieth of a second, which is too long to hold the camera steady by hand, do something to stabilize the camera.

Benjamin: It was pretty weird. But it was neat, it was kind of neat. I mean, you looked really crazy when you were doing it, you’d look really suspicious when you were doing it. I mean, it’s all right, I’m just pointing that out.

Gruber: I don’t think it looks nearly as suspicious as if I tried doing it with an SLR-sized camera.

Benjamin: [laughs] Right. And for the record, you’ve given me a lot of advice about the lenses to get, and I have two of the same lenses that you have. A 50 mm one, a 28 mm, same two type lenses that you have. Another friend of mine has a 35 mm. I’ve seen his pictures, it’s taken some great pictures. Both of them are prime lenses, meaning they don’t zoom. And it’s great because in a way it forces you to rethink what you’re used to. Instead of just being able to zoom in on something or zoom back from something, you actually have to sometimes physically change your relationship to whatever you’re taking a picture of. So I’ve been doing a lot of experimenting where I’ll take a picture of something with a 50 mm then I’ll pop the other lens on without really changing where I am, and you’ll get a completely different kind of picture. It’s really cool. We could talk an entire show, I think, about just this.

Gruber: Here’s one simple, basic rule of thumb. And of course, there’s dozens of exceptions and there are scenarios where it doesn’t apply, but just as a basic rule of thumb for someone who’s learning to take pictures, just wants to take better pictures, is an amateur. The closer you are to what you’re trying to photograph, the better. So in terms of using a fixed lens, a prime lens that doesn’t have a zoom, you say, well, what if I want to make it bigger? Well, just get closer. And it’s almost always possible to get closer, especially if you’re shooting people. Obviously, if you’re at the zoo and you want to take a picture of a lion, yeah, there’s only so close you can get, and you want to have a nice long focal length lens, something with the zoom, or a 300 mm lens, or something like that. But for just shooting people in your house or shooting people you know and you go out to dinner or something like that, just get as close to them as you can to fill the frame with an interesting composition.

Benjamin: You sound good, John.

Gruber: Thanks. I got a new microphone.

Benjamin: What kind?

Gruber: Samson PS01.

Benjamin: All of our equipment is Samson stuff. Ira is responsible for that. He just sends stuff. “Oh, I got a new microphone, I’m going to send one out to you.”

Gruber: Yeah, I don’t understand how it happened, all of a sudden — I didn’t even ask for it, and he was nice enough to send me this as a sample.

Benjamin: You’ve got the USB one.

Gruber: Right.

Benjamin: And I’ve got one that — I don’t know all these terms, but it’s a regular microphone, and it plugs into a preamp, and I’ve got optical compression and all these boxes. Whereas yours is just plugged right into the USB port on your PowerBook. But it’s amazing how much better you sound. It’s a great mic that I actually started out — I did most of, maybe all but the last couple of Hivelogic podcasts with the mic that you’re using. It’s amazing how much better you sound through a good microphone.

Gruber: I don’t know what to say about that.

Benjamin: It’s true. You sound more like yourself. Like, when people —

Gruber: Dan, you’ve got to stop, you’re choking me up here.

Benjamin: Oh yeah. No, I mean, when people —

Gruber: Dan, stop.

Benjamin: — hear your voice. Just hear me out, when people hear your voice and you sound all tinny and crappy over your little crappy headset, people think it —

Gruber: [in a mock teary voice] Dan, this means so much to me.

Benjamin: Say what?

Gruber: This means so much to me.

Benjamin: Yeah, okay. I’ll edit that out. When they hear you over that little microphone, you sound so — everybody would email me and say, “Hey, Dan, new podcast sounds great, you sound great. WTF with Gruber?” Because the microphone was crap, you sounded like crap.

Gruber: Even on the first episode?

Benjamin: Especially.

Gruber: No, the second one was the one where I was recording on the PowerBook’s built-in mic. First one, I had a USB headset.

Benjamin: I don’t think there was a difference. I think they both sounded bad.

Gruber: Hm.

Benjamin: And people would literally write in and say, “He needs a new mic.”

Gruber: It’s like the podcasting equivalent of top-posting. Just poor form.

Benjamin: Using a bad mic.

Gruber: Right, right, right. It’s embarrassing. It’s like having dirt under your fingernails.

Benjamin: I was embarrassed. I’m embarrassed at the website now. But we’re going to get that fixed, we’re going to get that redesigned.

Gruber: We have top men on it right now.

Benjamin: Actually, we do. Actually, as of yesterday, the 11th, a new entity is in place on an issue.

Gruber: Top men. We get a lot of unsolicited suggestions.

Benjamin: Yeah we do.

Gruber: And that is very sweet and thank you to everybody who has sent in their own design suggestions for what it looks like. We definitely appreciate the sentiment.

Benjamin: We do.

Gruber: But top men are on the case. As for why it looks the way it does now, the question was do we wait until we have a good website to start recording and doing this show, or do we start recording.

Benjamin: Do we start recording or do we spend six months trying to make it look good, neither of us really being fantastic designers. So here’s the thing, we’ve got some interesting things from people. Like, more than one person I think has sent in music that we’re supposed to use, pictures, designs have come in. So it’s obvious to me that, number one, we obviously need some kind of a jingle, or an intro, or something.

Gruber: Nah, we don’t need a jingle.

Benjamin: We need a jingle, we need some kind of 1950s chewing gum jingle, I think.

Gruber: [laughs]

Benjamin: So if you want to send something in and it’s good — if you can get a barbershop quartet together and sing something, we will air that.

Gruber: We could definitely air the best submissions that people send in.

Benjamin: Yeah, send us stuff. Maybe that’s what we ought to do, we ought to say, if you have some ideas for a jingle, or music, or something — but don’t send us something that we could — if I can do it myself with my Casio keyboard in my basement, then don’t send it to me. If it’s genuinely good, if you play an instrument, or have an amazing voice, or something legitimate — send that. But if it’s something that I could do with a Casio keyboard, don’t send it. I don’t know how I could be more clear, John.

Gruber: All right. What’s your problem with Casio?

Benjamin: No, I like it, it’s good. Infinite time. So that’s it, we’ve got to wrap, we’ve already gone — you just messaged me “40m”. So I’m going to have to cut this again, but at least you didn’t curse. I just want to say for the record, why do people have to curse on their blogs? You curse on your blog, and now Craig Hockenberry who is, by the way, where has he been for the last 10 years on the blogosphere, because he’s awesome. Furbo, furbo.org, he now owes us for advertising, I think. But, amazing writing, he’s a great guy, he’s actually shorter than I am, which you would never know because he looks really tall in the pictures. But, amazing writer, really good writer. Now he’s cursing, now he has an adult blog, now I can’t link to it.

Gruber: But you link to me.

Benjamin: Well, I have no choice, I have to do something.

Gruber: Because we’re partners in the show.

Benjamin: You don’t realize when you start working with somebody, now all this crap you have to do to keep them as your friend. What’s the next show going to be about?

Gruber: I don’t know, we should do more on the camera stuff. I think we really gave it short shrift.

Benjamin: If we’re going to do that, we need to get Duncan on the show though.

Gruber: Yeah, that’s what we should do.

Benjamin: He’s not going to come on the show, he’s too busy, he’s in Portland, he’s in San Francisco, he’s all over — but he would be — I had him on the Hivelogic podcast, but it was more of an interview. He should just come on here and just talk.

Gruber: You know what, I had a good idea for someone else we should get on the show. I’m not going to say names because I don’t want to put him on the spot, put all this pressure right on somebody —

Benjamin: Why not? Come on.

Gruber: You know, there’s a lot of people who listen to this show. You’ll know who I’m talking about. I haven’t said this to you, but I’m just going to say one word to you, “Newton”.

Benjamin: Oh yeah, of course.

Gruber: You know who I’m talking about. Now, we get him on this show, and we’ll talk Newton, we’ll talk iPhone, we’ll talk about — and you know what the problem is going to be with getting him on the show. The problem is that he’s Canadian.

Benjamin: Oh, that’s right. I don’t know if we should have him on the show.

Gruber: I mean, that’s just...

Benjamin: What kind of show would we become if we had him on the show?

Gruber: Right. But we’ll see, maybe we can make it work. I think that’s what we should shoot for next week.

Benjamin: Will he need a passport in order to be on the show?

Gruber: I don’t know. I really don’t.

Benjamin: We’ll have to see. I don’t want it to be an interview, I want him and Duncan, anybody else we have — not an interview, it’s like they’re guests, they show up, they sit down in the studio, they talk. That’s it.

Gruber: Right, exactly.

Benjamin: I don’t want it to be anything like an interview. It’s not Larry King.

Gruber: No.

Benjamin: Well, then that’s it.

Gruber: All right, see you.

Benjamin: We’re done.