#EITHER WAY still fucking kids in the sense of what they're going through developmentally

[inseparabiles]

There's also the repeat references to their father's cruelty towards them. They did not get an upbringing which would foster care for anyone but each other. I'm looking at this from a perspective that makes this personally stand out to me, but while subtle, there is a very significant narrative with the two of prolonged childhood trauma, which has had them in a survival mode their whole lives.

Then their father is no longer there and for the first time, they're not fearing the consequences of breathing wrong. The only thing they've learned through and through is that they have no one else but each other, and combined with their other damage, this has become to the exclusion of everybody else - a trait you do not want to see in an emperor. Put two of them together, and they'll end up in a self-perpetuating cycle of becoming the worst of themselves, because their sole meaningful audience can always only make them worse.

With Caracalla's illness, he is constantly further pushing Geta out of any potential other path that he had. Most of Geta's rule consists of trying to stop his brother from self-destructing through his uncontrollable behaviour and catering to his desires to keep him stable/satisfied. Despite this, throughout the film, he shows some promise: he asks Caracalla first, for example, when deciding the fate of a gladiator. A surprise to no one, Caracalla tells him he'd like to "see some blood", but this is clearly not the answer that Geta wanted to hear, so he asks Lucille also, under the guise of her being their guest. She tells him to show mercy - and he does.

Later, take this with a grain of salt since I've only seen the movie once (fixing this in a couple hours however so if I'm utterly wrong maybe I'll come back to correct myself here), Geta is the one who hesitates on initially commanding Acacius's death, when the crowd shows such preference for him. Surely - he ends up calling for it with his whole chest when disobeyed, but there is a moment there where he thinks, this is not the right choice to make.

But what Geta is above all other things, is a survivor of childhood abuse who made it his purpose to protect his weaker brother. Shoved into a position of ultimate power, he does not change from this. And Caracalla, at this point, simply is not capable of being more to him than someone he desperately needs to retain his sense of safety and stability in a world which is unpredictable and uncaring toward him. The only person he loves, and trusts to truly love him in return, even if the glimpses to that side of him are slipping from their hands by the day.

While in his role as the emperor and his brother's primary and only caretaker, what Geta ends up doing is look for a father figure. Someone who could advice him in the matters of the realm - but who also cares for him, and would provide safety and stability both for himself and Caracalla. They are VERY young men who never had the experience of being protected, or being kindly guided through their responsibilities. They are surrounded by sycophants and enemies. They latch onto and immediately trust the only person in their circle who, they think, shows them genuine care and concern. Who becomes a true friend. The fact that Geta ultimately asks for Macrinus to be the one to go talk to Caracalla, to calm him down, and then for the second time that night asks him for help helping his brother when things are going very wrong? That takes an insane amount of sincere trust from him - Caracalla is his primary responsibility, but with Macrinus around, he begins to trust that maybe he does not have to be alone with that responsibility, and maybe, for the first time, he can allow himself to think of his empire, too.

They are incredibly naive and desperate for protectors and parents. It's easy to see with Caracalla, whose illness makes his behaviour lapse so often to regression and childlike states. But Geta is by no means any better.

This all, of course, followed by the disclaimer that Geta's still a monster in the making who is seen to clearly enjoy and delight in the suffering of others, and will not hesitate to call for the heads of those who do wrong against him. But he shows that he is capable of second-guessing these instincts. The reason he rarely does is that he has no one who cares about him and who could help him choose another path, and as much as he remains the stronger and more coherent brother, Caracalla is the only person who he can allow himself to fully, unconditionally love, and whom he feels connected with. And Caracalla's judgement will always be "I'd like to see some blood".

They could have been better, though. If they didn't grow up raised by fucking wolves.

From the way Geta and Caracalla reacted to Acacius' and Lucilla's betrayal to their fear of the people's wrath against them, you can really tell how young and inexperienced these two really were.

Yes, they had an almost complete disregard of their subjects needs and, yes, they were heading straight to madness but there is also a tragedy to their stories. They were given great power at a young age, Caracalla's mind was all but gone and Geta showed signs of an unhinged character. They had no one to rely on except each other and seemed eager to have someone that they can trust.

But their madness also makes you wonder, how much of it can also be blamed on their position? These two would probably have different demeanors (and most certainly different fates) if they had never become Emperors which makes you realize how power can truly corrupt and destroy people and even display their true characters.

[your--isgayrights]

i Really love your take on kdj's relationship with the kids id love to hear more of your thoughts on them :]

Yessss okay. So like the big thing with SYS is that she's KDJ'S "incarnation," I think that even though she's not like he was as a kid she's the most similar to how he is now if that makes sense. Her relationship to LGY is sort of like KDJ and HSY's friendship where they argue and antagonize one another but are ultimately united by like fundamentally shared interests. So whereas when giving advice to LGY KDJ is often surprised by the outcome or LGY's reaction, with SYS his words will strike a bit more true. Idk if this is TMI or not, but as 3 & 4 explore KDJ'S relationships with his people, chapter 5 gets into his relationships to YJH's people, which will include a SYS moment where you may see what I'm talking about...

I think that the kids are really funny too. I tutored kids in highschool at my local math center and they're sooo funny is the thing, they are just little people lmao. I think that issues I have with people who write kids is that they just ascribe them the personality/role of "kid" and leave it at that. I think that works just fine when they only need two or three lines, but sometimes the caretaker role is important in an adult character's arc and for that to work you NEED TO UNDERSTAND KID PROBLEMS. Things are sooo dramatic and sooo important when you're a kid is the thing. Like half the things that are happening to you are happening for literally the first time ever and that's fucking! Dramatic! Important! Foundational!

This is also very much the influence of me 1. Psychoanalyzing myself and retaining a lot of memories from being a kid myself 2. Studying developmental psych for a while, and 3. Working with kids and babysitting, but like... The thing about kids in particular is that whenever they act in certain ways that is like... Coming from Somewhere, you know? I think ORV does a good job of showing this in how the kids start imitating KDJ'S self-negligence and try to act as grownups. I think sometimes it's hard for grown ups to see how they effect their kids if they don't put a lot of focus into being self-aware, because then they can't recognize what behaviors their kids are copying/responding to in them.

Like I have a little map of SYS's Issues I've put hints at through chapter 3 and want to get into later, but if you take LGY for instance, you see how he's overly formal and business-like at the beginning of things. That's very much him trying to imitate adults and put on the affectation of being an adult. After his parents died, it's hard for him to feel like he's a kid anymore, because he doesn't know any other kids who are going through what he's been through. Therefore he begins to act like he's an adult to normalize being on his own without a supportive guardian.

What KDJ does without realizing it is that he engages with LGY on that level that he projects, respecting his desire to behave like an adult in accepting his "sales commission." At this point LGY isn't ready to be treated like a kid by an adult again, that doesn't feel safe to him. As the bug deal continues, LGY begins to test the boundaries of this "business-like" relationship — bringing titano over, asking if Hyung has any snacks, just sitting on Hyung's couch reading comics after he's done with the bugs for the day — and since KDJ is a pushover this experimentarion leads to the attitude you see in Chapter 3 where he boldly declares to the still overly-polite SYS that Hyung is cool and doesn't care if they make a mess of his house. Without either of them really realizing it, KDJ has made his presence as a responsible adult and his home somewhere where it is safe for LGY to be a kid again. That's what allows him to become friends with SYS, whereas he couldn't connect with his cousins or other kids before, his friendship with SYS is nurtured by this environment where he doesn't have to be an adult, he doesn't feel like he's living in a different world than another kid here. SYS hasn't had the same realization and tries to be polite to every adult, and then, LGY arguing with her is where her childish side gets to show, thus it's an important relationship for her as well.

You can see how SYS's relationship with Yoo Mia is a lot different. In chapter 3 she does a lot to appease YMA, so it may seem like YMA is bossing her around. In reality, this is SYS trying to perform the role of an adult. To escape acknowledging her own mother's negligence, she tries to take on the role of caretaker herself. We see this in the way she looks after her pets and also the way she tries to appease the slightly younger YMA, versus the indelicate way she treats LGY who is closer to her in size and age. Then YMA is obviously imitating her brother, haha...

Oh about my age/height head cannons. I think SYS is the tallest and YMA is the shortest. Then, the way that ages work in South Korea is that all ages switch over in the new year and everyone starts at "1" when they're born. So, in my interpretation, YMA was born closer to before the new year and SYS and LGY were born closer to after the new year (in the same year), so even though they'd all be in the same grade, YMA is actually nearly a year younger. That age difference matters a lot in earlier years, so I think that SYS feels a bit of responsibility to be an older sister to YMA because she knew her from when she first started living with YJH when they were 6 or 7 (I think?) and developed a habit of being overly indulgent and trying to spoil her like she would a kitten.

Vs LGY when they're all about 10 seeing that and just thinking YMA's a bossy know-it-all taking advantage of SYS and making her more lame >:/ conflict!

Lmao yeah I could probably go on but I don't wanna keep ya too long. Thanks for your ask!!

[the-ghost-king]

Schizophrenic Nico, here's why I think it's possible:

I want to start off by saying these are just my thoughts, there is no one way to be schizophrenic or to have schizophrenia. It's also important to note that many of the schizophrenic symptoms overlap with other mental illnesses/nuerodivergences like ADHD, Autism, Depression, and OCD which I know many people who head canon Nico as having. I'm not arguing schizophrenic Nico is more correct, more canon, or more right, but to explain some thoughts on why I think it's possible/very likely he does so I can use this for future reference in various thing.

I am using the term schizophrenia as a catchall for all "types" of schizophrenia, but not for schizoaffective disorder which I would say Nico probably doesn't have.

Children born in the winter/those who were "sickly" as babies are more likely to develop schizophrenia. It may also be possible if your mother was sick while pregnant with you, or having a father who was significantly older when he had you.

A stressful life, especially trauma, are more likely to develop schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. It likely has something to do with excessive dopamine production, but it may also have something to do with the same genes that control the sleep-wake cycle. Schizophrenia is more common with other mental illnesses or with other nuerodivergences or developmental delays.

Common symptoms include:

Hallucinations

Delusions

Disorganized thinking

lack of motivation

slow movement

change in sleep patterns

poor grooming or hygiene

changes in body language and emotions

less interest in social activities

Now what does this mean for Nico, and why do I think it's likely he has Schizophrenia?

Let's start with Nico's childhood, "children born in the winter/those who were "sickly" as babies are more likely to develop schizophrenia". Although Rick proposed two birthdays for Nico, the fandom generally accepted the January date more fully. We also know that Nico is described as small when he was younger, smallness is common in children who grow up sickly, but it is also common in children who's mother was ill while pregnant with them. We obviously don't know if Nico was sick as a kid, or if Maria was sick while pregnant with him, but again being born in the winter makes these things more likely, as well as consideration for the time period Nico grew up in and the larger variety of illnesses going around at the time. (He is vaccinated against some things though).

Trauma and Nico... do I really have to go into super detail on this one? He spent his childhood growing up in a fascist country that was extremely racist/anti-Semitic/homophobic/etc, his mom died when he was a child- in front of him, his father intentionally gave him amnesia, his sister died when he was a child, he then proceeded to become homeless living/spending lots of time with Minos who verbally (and possibly physically) abused him, becoming aware of his past memories, becoming aware of the fact that many people hated him because of his father and because they thought he was joining the other side (therefore, he was "bad"), he fought in many battles as a child, fought monsters alone, was often faced with life or death situations, went to Tartarus alone (where the goddess of misery told him he was "perfect"), was trapped in a hostage situation with little/no air for a long time while people debated whether or not to save him, was outed against his will, was freed only to travel again fighting monsters and then win a battle, was eventually made to quest with Apollo despite still having lots of healing to do in ToN. So stressful life? Fuck yeah, that doesn't being to cover it.

Genetic factors, obviously nothing here is confirmed so I'm speculating a little bit again, but the common idea in regards to Hades children through the series is that they are "bad". Mental illnesses have been stigmatized for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and often mentally ill people were made out to be weird/bad/etc. It's more than possible there is some sort of genetic factor taking place, also "having a father who was significantly older when he had you". Although I doubt godly genes work the same as mortal ones (trust me I have lots of thoughts on how god genetics/DNA work, but that's not the point right now), I think Hades being the oldest out of all his brothers and having a reputation for having "questionable" children says something... We have no information on Maria's family history at all.

As for schizophrenia often occurring with other mental illnesses and/or neurodivergences: Nico canonically is implied to have either ADHD and/or Autism, and is canonically stated to have PTSD. I think most people would agree that saying Nico has or has had depression isn't a stretch in the slightest.

So canonically we can all agree Nico has severe trauma and coinciding mental health issues/neurodivergences, so out of 4 possible issues I’ve first presented we guaranteeably have two. If I wanted to stretch this a little I would give myself a half point for him being born in the winter and a half point for the aspect of Hades genetics but I won’t do that.

On top of that schizophrenia usually appears during teenage and young adult years in people who receive diagnosis; most people live with mental illness for a few months or a few years in some cases before they're able to receive a diagnosis. Nico being 15 (16 by the end of ToN/shortly following the end of ToN) is about the age that schizophrenia would start to make an appearance. It's also more likely to be found in men, with men also noticing the appearance of schizophrenia appearing early in their lives, and experiencing more negative symptoms in comparison to the higher commonality of affective symptoms in women. That's a really complicated explanation to basically say there's 3 more things that would make Nico having schizophrenia make more sense.

Alright, let’s go back to the list of symptoms I provided:

Hallucinations

Delusions

Disorganized thinking

lack of motivation

slow movement

change in sleep patterns

poor grooming or hygiene

changes in body language and emotions/behavior

less interest in social activities

Once again, some of these are not solely related to schizophrenia and can be the result of other mental health issues, I’m just going to go down the list and add in some moments from the books in which Nico shows some of these traits/behaviors.

Delusions/Hallucinations (more later)

Our best chances for understanding Nico's thought process is in Blood of Olympus where he has a P.O.V... Sometimes Nico's thoughts do derail, or sometimes they get a little confusing, but not always, and when talking to others he is consistent and aware of what he's saying, as well as blunt. Anything "off" about his thought patterns to me just seems like ADHD..

Dietary changes (whether or not you think he has an eating disorder) are behavioral changes (I personally think Nico has AFRID)

Within House of Hades Nico's poor sleep patterns are constantly referenced, and I'll give him a pass on poor hygiene because he's in the middle of a quest but still..

I have extremely complicated feelings on what Will says here, it's possible Nico is an extremely unreliable narrator (unlikely, it seems many people are bothered by him and only maybe a handful aren't), I've also thought at many points this was Rick trying to backtrack some stuff with Nico because he realized he'd made his story a little too harsh for a kids book, it could also be Will's trauma kicking in and that happening... I'm not counting it as full proof about Nico disliking social interactions, but Nico does try to leave even after this conversation and isn't convinced to stay until the last chapter, so maybe there's something to be said about people's dislike of him for being a Hades kid- but I think it's fair to say Nico also dislikes people at least some because he doesn't have interest in trying to befriend anyone either, and is quick to assume all people dislike him (paranoia/low self esteem/and some other possible stuff). There's lots of discussions to be had about this quote and other similar ones, and I don't think a broad brush approach of "Nico good everyone else bad" is accurate it's more, "Nico is good but he fails to try and you have to work on your own mental health everyone won just go to you, and also people dislike Nico for silly reasons and need to get over themselves and make an effort too". (I'm extremely oversimplifying my thoughts and feelings to keep it brief.)

More on delusions and hallucinations:

Now I want to state that lots of schizophrenia symptoms share a lot of commonalities with ADHD and with depression, so although I might include some moments you think are just ADHD/depression I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with you but they could also be schizophrenia or coexisting mental health issues/divergences. I also went through the DSM-5 for schizophrenia (the DSM-5 is just this big book with lists and it’s how doctors diagnose any mental health issue/divergence), I also looked through the DSM-IV (an older book from before DSM-5 which is no longer really used) and the differences between the diagnosis was fairly minimal but they quit categorizing types of schizophrenia and instead rely more on a couple of word descriptions that seem more in line with a spectrum rather than a checkable box.

In order to receive a schizophrenia diagnosis, two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated), and at least one of these symptoms must be (1), (2), or (3):

Delusions

Hallucinations

Disorganized speech (frequent derailment or incoherence)

Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior

Negative symptoms (i.e., diminished emotional expression or avolition).

It’s important to note that only one of these need to be checked off/true if the patient has voices which narrate their actions/behaviors/thoughts or if the person has more than one voice conversing with each other.

Nico deals with auditory hallucinations (2), he believes the voice belongs to Bob, his titan friend he left in Tartarus:

However this isn’t and immediate diagnosis because Bob’s voice doesn’t talk to another voice(s) in Nico’s head, and we don’t know if Nico has voices running commentary on his behaviors/thoughts.

The reason I state we are unaware if Nico has commentary isn’t because Nico hasn’t said anything, but because many people with schizophrenia before their diagnosis believe the narrative voices are just their thoughts and are a normal internal monologue- usually patients don’t realize anything is wrong until the voices start providing commentary on their actions so instead of “washing the dishes now” the voice(s) might say “wash the dishes now, you’re so lazy you can’t do anything, idiot” during a period of psychosis which may help them acknowledge that the voice(s) isn’t the way most people experience internal voice(s). It is very possible Nico is unaware he is experiencing narrative thoughts and simply assumes that his experience is something most people have, but I won’t use this to argue my point because it’s not confirmation of anything.

Returning now to Bob, Nico knows he is hearing Bob’s voice but he believes Bob is calling to him from Tartarus. Now, Nico says the voices are calling to him from Tartarus but there’s no confirmation of this anywhere… What I think is happening is Nico has a guilty conscience. He feels bad for “using” Bob to get out of Tartarus and various other things, so he feels bad that he is still down there. However, we don’t really know if Bob is calling to him or if Bob is able to do that- what I personally think is happening here is Nico’s brain is convincing Nico that Bob needs him because Nico is upset with himself for not helping Bob more, but also because Nico has never “sat still” before without a quest. Nico has also always felt the want to be needed/important...

It very well could be a delusion.

Schizophrenic patients often experience delusions which make them think they are destined for greatness, or that they have some divine/high force calling out to them for help that only they can provide. It’s an extremely common thing in individuals who experience delusions, and is in fact one of the most common delusions experienced. So although Bob could really be calling out to Nico, I don’t think he is, it doesn’t entirely make sense and there’s lots of little things which point to it being not entirely real- like the fact that nobody else knows about it? Or how absolutely sure Nico is that he need to return to Tartarus? It seems like a mixture of PTSD, delusions, and trauma response (returning to the trauma), working against him. I’ll say delusion is very likely (1).

Using these two factors alone there’s sufficient evidence for diagnosis, but let’s keep going just to see.

For disorganized speech (3) this isn’t something Nico seems to struggle with, and even if he did “derailing” could be ADHD or Autism, so I don’t think this symptom pertains to him.

Changes in behavior (4), seem to all be explainable via depression and/or PTSD- he has begun to express emotion again in Tower of Nero upon learning of Jason’s death he is said to be upset by Will and he walks off to be alone, seems like depression to me. Emotional/Behavior changes from schizophrenia tend to relate more to bipolar disorder rather than a depressive disorder, so I would say if Nico has schizophrenia he probably doesn’t have emotional or behavioral changes from it. If he did he might have some catatonic behavior, but this seems to be clearing up some in Tower of Nero so I’m not super sure on that, maybe during bad periods of psychosis behavioral changes occur, but I would lean more towards this isn’t a symptom Nico personally deals with. Negative symptoms (5) tie into this same idea, it’s possible it’s schizophrenia, but it’s more likely PTSD or depression at work.

So why do I care so much about the possibility of Nico being schizophrenic?

I feel like canonically/fanonically making Nico schizophrenic does a few things, firstly schizophrenic rep in media is extremely extremely awful- can you think off the top of your head of a schizophrenic character who isn't from a horror film/a murder/a villain in their own story? Maybe, but personally I can only think of one which is Charlie from Perks of Being a Wallflower- and even then? That's not canon, it's only implied- and it might not even be true

Schizophrenic media representation always paints schizophrenic people as bad, scary, and evil, and although the horror genre is extremely well known for being super ableist, transphobic, racist, homophobic, and misogynistic (just the final cherry on top) having one of the first- if not the first openly confirmed schizophrenic characters in children's media not only be someone who has lots of character development, and isn't a stereotype, but also be someone people have grown up with, cared for, and sympathized with- would be extremely monumental.

People with schizophrenia and other related disorders aren't something to be scared of or to think of as bad, and often times they're more bothered by whatever they're experiencing than you are.

I don't have schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder or anything like that, but I have various undiagnosed mental health issues which often lead to me questioning reality, or having to set aside time to convince myself that no there isn't a man living in my wall... Having a character have to question those things, work through those feelings, and learn to trust themselves and care for themselves even with those difficulties would be really great to see in media, not just for people with schizophrenia but also for people with similar/related disorders who might share symptoms see parts of their own struggles in a good, educative way.

I have to finish this in two parts because tumblr keeps breaking because there's too many words in my post lmao (2nd part here)