#And now I'm here just realizing why I could relate to his dumbass actions so well

[arcshuttle]

Opportunist may be our inner negotiator and can, in the right context, be great at talking us out of a pickle, but he also carries so so much of our neurodivergency by being so so tonedeaf in the worst possible situations. I love him.

[noqueenbutthequeeninthenorth]

hey hey i read your response to an anon about what you thought J's little smile (after S' "pretty" comment) could be in response to, and i definitely agree that he underestimated how hurt she was & where that hurt was coming from (i feel like he's constantly preaching trust but he very rarely reciprocates) (minus the obvious e.g. of him trusting the north to her... the least he could've done) (anywAY). so i'm at a point where i believe S has feelings for J, but not necessarily vice versa (1/3)

(2/3).. like to me, the “pretty” comment was her trying to gauge how he felt about D. had he shrugged it off, i don’t think she would’ve asked if he bent the knee for the north or for love, and would’ve trusted that he only had the former’s interests in mind. and his lack of response to that question + his apparent reluctance to defend D in public seems to me proof that maybe he bent the knee for both? but he knows that to admit to any feelings for D (even if he is also protecting the

(3/3).. North) would mean calling into question every decision or action he makes/has made. what i’m trying to say is i believe Sansa does love Jon, that pol!jon is alive&well but i do think i underestimated how much Jon is enthralled by D/ny (and i use the word enthralled b/c i think a lot of J’s attraction to her, and the reason he was acting weirdly in that episode, is down to that heady feeling of being wanted by someone so ridiculously powerful & being a bit in awe of them etc.)

I get what you’re saying, anon, but I think I disagree. If the showrunners knew they were going to be setting up an unrequited version of Jonsa or a strictly political alliance, then it seems wild that they would’ve written and allowed so many scenes where Jon is so clearly intensely emotionally invested in Sansa. They wouldn’t have had so many scenes where Jon loses control when men threaten Sansa, nor would they have so many where Sansa’s opinion of him very clearly means so much to him. We wouldn’t get the soft eyes, the deep sighs, the close-ups on hand touching, the forehead kiss where his eyes flicker to her lips.

Was Jon less demonstrative with Sansa this episode? For sure. But at this point I think he’s trying to keep a tight rein on his feelings. Even so, he can’t help himself: he keeps turning to Sansa for affirmation, he clearly feels hurt that she doesn’t trust and back him up. He shows up at her room and asks with heartbreak on his face whether she has any faith in him at all. If we hadn’t seen the extreme versions of this in previous seasons, then this might all just be sibling tension but imo it’s a somewhat suppressed continuation of the same tension they’ve been feeling since season 6. 

They used the last two seasons (and perhaps especially season 7) to establish Jon’s feelings. Now we’re seeing Sansa’s come to the fore, and perhaps Sansa herself is only just realizing them.

Moreover, with the reunions between Jon and his other siblings, we can see a real contrast between his relationship with Sansa and these other relationships – not a lessening in intensity, but a different atmosphere. Arya and Jon’s one-on-one is outdoors, well-lit, opens with a joke (”How’d you sneak up on me?”/”How’d you survive a knife in the heart?”), and has the awkwardness of an older brother who still sees the girl before him as the little sister he once knew. There’s still a really passionate hug and strong emotions on their faces, but it doesn’t have any weird undercurrents of intensity. Compare to the one-on-one Jon and Sansa scene is private, indoors, candlelit, and underpinned with a kind of desperation on Jon’s part to have Sansa affirm him. They’re both dressed down and move into each other’s physical space, but avoid touch. They stare deeply into each other’s eyes and discuss romantic love.

(Compare also to Jon and Sansa’s initial reunion, which was raw and physical, and even though they had people around them, it’s as if they have completely forgotten everyone else. They lose themselves in each other. The conversation that comes later only emphasizes the fact that they didn’t really know each other as children, that they are learning each other now for the first time.)

Maybe you disagree that Jon’s in love with Sansa, but to me it explains so much about the past two seasons. It explains Kit Harington’s otherwise utterly bizarre choices. It explains why the show spent time showing us again and again and again how much Jon cares for Sansa, how protective he is, the fact that he preferred to die rather than fail her in the Battle of the Bastards.

But even if Jon’s not in love with Sansa, I remain unconvinced of his genuine attraction to or even enthrallment by D/ny. If that were the case, why haven’t we gotten a single actually romantic or sexy scene between the two of them? I don’t think it’s the heady feeling of being wanted – it’s the fact that he feels like he has to do whatever it takes to keep being wanted. Even hop on a dragon in the middle of a crisis and go on a joyride. Yet notice how he still shuts down any attempt from D/ny to get him to lose himself in her or with her. “We could stay here for a thousand years,” she says. His reply? “We’d be pretty old.” This is such a flop it’s embarrassing. It would’ve been so easy to have him say something like, “I wish we could,” or “Maybe not a thousand years, but I can think of how to fill the next hour.” He could’ve looked awed that she wants to spend a thousand years with him. Instead he makes an awkward face and rejects the romantic moment.

Perhaps realizing his mistake, he flirts with D/ny a little after that and kisses her, but even then, he doesn’t lose himself in her. He never forgets that they’re not alone. He’s distracted by the dragons.

Why? Why do this? Why not show us the two of them completely stupidly infatuated or just passionate even? The closest we get is the sex scene in 7.07 but (as many have noted) it’s so undercut by the intrusion of half a dozen other people into the scene as well as the reminder of Jon and D/ny’s blood relation and rivalry, that it’s clear that they cannot become their own small bubble of passion, even for a moment.

I do think it’s possible Jon has been fooled by D/ny inasmuch as I don’t think he realized until he found out about the Tarlys just how much of a tyrant she is – from his perspective, she’s a spoiled, entitled brat, one who likes to throw out threats, and she’s shown no sign of being a competent ruler, but as far as I know he might be unaware of her actually hurting people in such a clearly tyrannical way. Maybe he didn’t want to know. But now he can’t deny it. And now he’s not just wary of her – he’s frightened.

And his reluctance to answer the question of why he bent the knee is because of his reluctance to let anyone in on his secret, because he’s trying to be a lone wolf and manage D/ny on his own. Whatever answer he gives, he’s screwed. If he says the North, then Sansa knows he doesn’t love D/ny and given Sansa’s refusal to bend to D/ny’s will, maybe he fears that she’ll even tell D/ny or let it slip. If he says for love, then he’s completely broken Sansa’s trust in him. So he doesn’t know what to say.

I could be wrong about all of this. Maybe Jon is a dumbass who’s flattered by a sexy, powerful woman being into him, but this is the Jon who resisted Melisandre, this is the Jon who constantly doubts his own worthiness and honor, this is the Jon who slept with Ygritte only to prove that he was loyal to her, even if he loved her too. If Jon has fallen for D/ny – whether he’s in love with her or just enthralled – then I’m not sure what he’s learned over the past seven seasons. If he has, then he’s still the boy and the not the man, and everything from Ygritte and the wildlings to Stannis and Mance to his murder to the retaking of Winterfell, all taught him nothing.

In that case, his character is irredeemable and I’m not sure why we spent eight seasons or five books caring about him.

Thanks for the ask, anon! Sorry this got so long!