#....so they wouldn't get called out on arguing in bad faith and being disingenuous

[thegayhimbo]

“it’s extremely painful to be accused of any type of racism. you’re attacking my identity as an anti-racist” is extremely funny though. get thicker skin

[please-read-the-manga]

I re-read the manga/get back into thinking about this series like once or twice a year... needed a place to post my thoughts amid the sea of disingenuous, bad faith takes I often see regarding too many characters (mostly Uchiha) and their related scenes.

Wondering about my general takes?

Here's a list:

Sasuke deserved better, mostly from fans who willfully misinterpret or trivialize his character arc/motivations.

Sasuke's worst 'crime' (imo) is stabbing Karin and nothing else even compares. In fact, throughout Shippuden he mostly helped Konoha indirectly (even if that was not his intention). He killed three rogue ninja (Orochimaru, Deidara, and Itachi), he freed Orochimaru's prisoners, he stopped Kabuto/the edo tensei with Itachi, he summoned the past Hokage who helped with the war, and he was fundamental in saving the world and defeating Kaguya - you wouldn't even have a prison to 'lock him up' in (as if he could even be held at this point lmao) if not for him helping save the world.

Actually, let me keep ranting about Sasuke's 'crimes' for a minute... Re: Danzo, the guy was already about to be jumped at the Five Kage Summit for his multiple unraveling deceptions (and generally being a bum ass lol) even before Sasuke got there. Fr, dude had so much blood on his hands/insanely dirty laundry it's not even funny... so, again, Sasuke did Konoha another favor by taking him out. And bffr about the nameless, faceless samurai for 3 seconds OR acknowledge that others, like Gaara when he invaded the Leaf, should be locked up for life for also killing 'innocent' fodder in the background... like c'mon, we're not going to be that disingenuous about the world/setting are we? He also went to the 5KS under stealth which was only ruined by Zetsu announcing his presence and kickstarting an insane gauntlet with the kage that Sasuke didn't give a shit about/hadn't intended. Re: Akatsuki, he joined them for 0.5 seconds, failed the mission to capture Bee, and then immediately dropped them after getting Itachi's eyes. He also claimed he wanted to 'destroy Konoha' and be 'darkness incarnate to unite the world' and, again, didn't do anything truly actionable about those fleeting plans before immediately dropping the ideas altogether after another 0.5 seconds of consideration. And during this series of events we even have rare insight into Sasuke's psyche which reveals that (at this point in the story) he was notably lost and confused, deep in his grief, and very desperately trying to wrap his head around how the world could be so cruel that his own beloved brother was groomed and manipulated into mercilessly slaughtering their entire family/clan (and for WHAT) - he's hopelessly searching for answers/solutions during this time because the reality that the Hidden Villages/Shinobi World are 'just like that' (ie. fundamentally cruel/broken), is too much for him to bear. You could argue one of his 'big crimes' was being a rogue ninja (which in-universe is stated to be treasonous) after he left the village at 12 to train with Orochimaru... but to that I'd counter, even if he didn't know the full truth behind his clan's indiscriminate slaughter, he was still willing to make such a personal sacrifice/abandon the village because he knew by then that Konoha didn't actually give a shit about his quest of justice for the Uchiha. So Sasuke, even then, out of his deep love for his family and an intrinsic need for justice, decided there was nothing left for him in a Konoha that wasn't going to help him achieve his righteous goals of avenging the clan. He left and became a rogue ninja for what he saw as a higher (and certainly a more moral) calling.

Sasuke wasn't constantly 'arrogant' and Naruto's POV often gets this wrong about his character. While Naruto can be excused for how he interpreted/viewed Sasuke from afar as it's his own bias, it's still the reader's responsibility to realize Naruto's perception is often flawed and should not be simply accepted at objective face value. We, the reader, know that for much of his childhood Sasuke was a severely depressed and traumatized child who had been given the monumental task of seeking justice for his entire clan and their legacy. We often see Naruto wrongfully interpret this as Sasuke being aloof and cocky when really we know that (most of the time) Sasuke was just barely hanging on by a thread and none of his peers could even begin to understand/fathom what he had been through or why he felt compelled to work so hard and undertake his incredibly grueling quest.

The Leaf owes the Uchiha reparations and were/are fundamentally wrong in orchestrating the genocide of ANY clan, let alone a founding clan. There is absolutely no justification for genocide so don't even try to make one with me. The Leaf should be groveling at Sasuke's feet, begging for his forgiveness of their egregious crimes to him and his family. The fact that today (Boruto-era), Sasuke instead chooses to quietly protect them is testament to Sasuke's incredible generosity/capacity for forgiveness - not theirs.

Sasuke is/was the glue that holds Team 7 together. Until Itachi came back in part one to 'kidnap' Naruto and violently torture/mentally destroy his brother again (ie. remind Sasuke of the ultimate task of justice he had bestowed on him/keep him 'on track' with Itachi's plans for his brother), Sasuke had really been opening himself up to his team which was no small feat after the enormous tragedy of the Uchiha Clan Massacre and how badly he had been scarred after horrifically losing everyone he'd ever loved. Sasuke is the reason Team 7 passed Kakashi's bell test and remained shinobi, Sasuke decided that Naruto being fed mattered more than their sensei's arbitrary rules, Sasuke showed Naruto kindness that literally no one else ever had (let alone a peer), Sasuke was willing to DIE for Naruto and give up on his dreams just to make sure Naruto survived (and this resulted in Naruto's life fundamentally changing for the better - this is one of the key reasons why Sasuke is Naruto's most important person/personal mission), Sasuke was the one who led Team 7, Sasuke called Team 7 his precious people and wanted so desperately to keep them safe. Team 7 has always been Sasuke leaving a lasting and profound impact on his teammates and him, in turn, choosing to love and protect them even though he intimately knows how great the cost of loss/losing those he loves is.

The Uchiha Clan Massacre was a horrific event that should not be undermined or underplayed. If you don't remember it this way, then you need to re-read the manga. It was so bad that at seven years old (SEVEN) Sasuke unlocked his sharingan, that is younger than any other Uchiha character we've seen. It's even worse when you remember that Sasuke tried to dissociate so completely from this traumatic event that he didn't re-unlock his sharingan until he was twelve and risking his life to protect Naruto. I hate playing the 'Trauma Olympics' this fandom tries to encourage but don't even go there with me on the Uchiha Clan Massacre OR Sasuke's subsequent torture over it at his brother's hands.

Sasuke is not an 'edge-lord' or an 'emo' or a 'cry baby'... it is 2024 about to be 2025 and if you're still serious about those interpretations of the character then I'm going to assume you've only consumed Naruto through TikTok/Youtube clips and therefore don't have any meaningful grasp on the source material/its themes. The fact Sasuke was able to keep going after what Itachi did (which, as another reminder, was annihilating his entire family, culture, and sense of safety on top of violently torturing him as a seven-year-old) speaks so much to Sasuke's resilience and strength.

Actually (re: UCM), I consider this thread fundamental reading: Kishimoto's Writing on the Uchiha Is Unironically A Good Example of Real Life Pro-Genocide Propaganda (by u/livingwithstupidity).

Itachi is a complicated character to me. I greatly enjoy his pre-massacre relationship to Sasuke and believe he was a loving brother. I also greatly struggle with the way he violently tortured Sasuke in an attempt to mold him into own his perfect vision of 'strength' rather than see Sasuke for the individual he was. Itachi even vaguely tries alluding to this mistake when he dies. That being said, I think Itachi is also a victim of the ninja system and he was far too young to be given the responsibilities he had... buuuuut, the fact he still doesn't acknowledge that the shinobi world (and by extension Konoha itself) is inherently flawed and was wrong for putting him through it all, irks me. So he's complicated in my book.

I like Kakashi, but sometimes I can't stand his fans and it can bleed into my views on the character (though I do try to couch my biases). And I recognize that the reverse is probably true for them of us Sasuke fans lol. You like what you like, I get it. I'm just saying my piece. Kakashi has a lot of heavy baggage from his past and is mentally unwell but shown to be 'managing' it. Like Itachi, he is also a victim of the broken/corrupt shinobi system and it's important to recognize that he responds to his trauma within this system differently than Sasuke, differently than Naruto, etc. while also being an adult with additional experience under his belt. But, when his fans cheer him on for being unable (and many of them think he is actually 'unwilling', which I'd argue is not true nor would it be in-character) to help Sasuke who is drowning in grief... it just rubs me the wrong way lol. I can completely understand/recognize that Kakashi was out of his depth with handling Sasuke... In fact, after what Sasuke has been through, I personally don't they should have even trained him to be a child soldier to begin with, but whatever the Leaf has to make its money. It's weird to me that, rather than acknowledging this as a difficulty Kakashi is navigating as Sasuke's mentor, some of his fans will just completely villainize Sasuke's valid-but-raw emotions in favor of hyping up Kakashi's stoicism as the preferred/'better' trauma response. Ignoring the fact that this 'stoicism' is really a way for Kakashi to (literally lol) mask his own barely healed emotional turmoil, they're also refusing to explore the far more compelling idea of how varied the processing of grief/trauma can be and how under-explored/understood it is within the shinobi world (especially to the extent that Kakashi was set up for failure here). Not to mention the fact there's a really interesting connection between the two characters and their emotional pain that Kakashi himself recognizes/is reminded of when he sees Sasuke struggling. I just think some fans, in their attempt to woobify Kakashi, diminish the character's agency and his personal journey of navigating how to be an effective mentor to the next generation of struggling kids while still not being completely mentally well/healed/adjusted himself.

Sasuke is Naruto's best friend and most important person. Full stop. It's not Shikamaru, Hinata, Gaara, or Sakura. The narrative repeatedly, constantly, blatantly, underscores Sasuke's fundamental importance to Naruto and who he is as a person. He can be great friends with all of these other people, but each and every one of them will pale in the way he views and holds Sasuke in his heart. This is directly from the text.

Sasuke worked incredibly hard to be where he is today. I think the misconception that he didn't maybe comes from a few comments made in part one by characters implying Sasuke was 'only' good because of his clan's legacy... but again, we know this is untrue. We see Sasuke training constantly. Even as a young child, he works tirelessly to grasp the fireball jutsu to impress his father - it didn't come naturally to him (in comparison to someone like Itachi), but he worked nonstop to make up that difference. At the academy, especially post-massacre, if not dissociating/slipping into depression we see that one of the only things driving him is continuing his training/performing at the top level in hopes he can one day avenge his family. Naruto also gets flak in this 'hard work v. natural talent' debate and even if both he and Sasuke did have natural advantages, they still had to work hard to fully harness and utilize those talents and I don't think that should be negated.

Tobirama's design is sick (in a good way) but his politics are also sick (in a very bad way lol). If you know, you know.

I think Hashirama owed more to Madara. He kind of acknowledges it in the end when they're together/dying once again, but really Hashirama flagrantly ignoring/not doing enough regarding Madara's concerns about his brother's bias against the Uchiha (which we see still remains when Sasuke summons the past Hokage) is a major misstep that I feel falls on Hashirama's shoulders. Madara has his own many faults (no question about that lol), but it's a two-way street and the foundation for Konoha was rocky from the very beginning (and don't even get me started on 'We-Should-Vote-For-Hokage' Tobirama who then goes on to field promote his own successor to the role and continue the lineage nepotism/Senju concentration of power in Konoha lmao). Oy. That said, I do really enjoy the Founders era and wish we had a prequel centering on the Senju/Uchiha instead of Boruto.

Madara and Naruto parallels are awesome/fascinating as are Hashirama and Sasuke parallels. That's it, just wanted to state that. I really appreciate all the talented people who have brought forth that analysis as it's definitely altered the way I re-read/examine certain scenes now.

In general, I'll just never understand Uchiha haters who wish the Uchiha didn't exist... like wdym lol, there'd be no narrative or story without them. They are the drama, they are the moment. Naruto without the Uchiha constantly bringing their best (and worst lol) is nothing.

Neji deserved better - the Hyuga should have been called out and brought to task for their horrific practices.

Ame deserved better. I don't like to venture into Boruto because I don't keep up with the chapters as often (the art style is so bad to me, I'm sorry) but the fact that two sitting Hokage (Kakashi and then Naruto) have done nothing to repay what Konoha did to them is egregious.

Team Taka deserved better. I just really like them and what they represented. The way each of them reflected different key aspects of Sasuke's character was woefully underexplored. I also wish we had gotten to see them accomplish their individual goals/how those goals would evolve over time. Suigetsu reviving the legendary swordsmen, Jugo finding a way to tame the curse inside of him, Karin maybe carrying on Uzumaki culture/lineage as one of the very few remaining members of the clan -- I don't know, I just wish it had been more developed because I really vibe with the concept.

The Hidden Villages can talk all the shit they want but we still never really had a conclusion regarding the impact of their involvement in atrocities against one another nor their latent support of the Akatsuki as an organization and the role that played in the overall war.

The Elders who helped Danzo plan the massacre should have been called out and brought to task. The fact they continue to sit on the Hokage's council even now is insidiously evil.

Fugaku wasn't a bad father. He was simply stern and struggled to sometimes connect with his kids... but he obviously respected and loved them. Sasuke was an incredibly happy and dedicated child growing up (albeit a bit shy) and he clearly felt comfortable enough going to his parents with honest questions - he does this with both Mikoto and Fugaku who reassure him that he is loved and his own person (ie. he doesn't have to be Itachi). The Uchiha are a clan of deep love/loyalty and even if bad actors like Tobirama want to twist that into a terrible thing, I think it's wonderful and I won't tolerate Fugaku slander lol.

Naruto filler/anime-only changes are the bane of my existence. The manga is superior for many reasons, but a big one for me is that so much is lost in the original work's expressions when it is animated. The way certain filler goes out of its way to assassinate certain characters as well (Sasuke and Sakura, in particular) is just... awful. If I have to see the 'Sasuke would have still been an asshole even without the massacre' take one more time and watch that person cite the horrifically bad, non-canon filler that was Tsunade's stupid Infinite Tsukuyomi dream then I'm gonna lose it lmao.

This matters very little to me, but I've been asked before so I'll put it here - I really don't care about romantic pairings at all in Naruto. I think sometimes fans make fun/funny content with the pairings, but the purpose it serves in the narrative doesn't really do anything for me.

Maybe I'll add more to these as time goes on lol. Interestingly, I've held many of these thoughts/opinions for years now. Even as a young kid reading the manga religiously after school in the public library, Sasuke and his pursuit of justice really resonated with me... so it's nice to see that some things never change haha.

That being said, outside of a few of my hard lines (trivializing genocide, for example), I'm largely fine with reading alternative interpretations/analysis when it comes to Naruto and its characters -- especially when it is backed up by the text. I really appreciate anyone who backs up their thoughts with evidence from the manga because I think it goes a long way in combatting the wild misinformation that gets circulated through fandom groupthink and the far too common consumption of Naruto through limited/edited videos of the anime (including filler that gets treated as canon).

TLDR: Most of my opinions/takes revolve around the fact that I think the fandom owes Sasuke a lot more grace and that, in a better timeline, the Uchiha clan (and many other characters) would have received better, more satisfying narrative conclusions than what we were ultimately given.