#'wwx evil and the cause for all my suffering and mom was right about him'

[llycaons]

ig my 'unpopular opinion' (hate that term) is that lwj Should feel bad about how he treated wwx, and I'm glad he does, because that pushes him to grow as a character and make difference choices in the future. he should feel bad that he sided with the passive and corrupt clans instead of trusting wwx and being more proactive in protecting all those people. on the flipside jc's grief and misery surrounding wwx never seems to include regrets about what HE could have done differently, so he doesn't undergo any of that positive character growth, he just blames everyone around him and lashes out and sinks deeper into bitterness and contempt and fury. if he had thought about the consequences of his choices a little more, maybe he could have taken some responsibility for how it all went down too and like. acted differently when wwx returned.

but despite him going on about how family/clan is more important than anything, he doesn't even try to trust wwx, he just assumes the worst of him. and ik he's being manipulated and he's got trauma related to being abandoned, and wwx wasn't the most communicative about what was happening, but clearly he was trying to protect a group of innocent people and a child, so why couldn't jc extend to wwx an iota of good faith and like. back him up since this was clearly so important to him and also there are literal farmers and a toddler being threatened with murder? jc isn't to blame for wen chao or jgy or su she's actions, but he did have a certain amount of power in his role and he seemed determined not to use it. he publicly cut ties with wwx, allowing public sentiment to build against him, and he folded easily to demands that he kill wen ning despite having an actual argument against that. obviously being attached to the burial mounds community is politically disastrous, but lwj was speaking for wwx at the time too so it's not like jc was entirely alone. if he was a great political mind like I've seen people claim he was, he also could have curried favor with jzx through jyl's connection...idk it was important to wwx and I wish jc had been able to stand up for him or at least was capable of critically analyzing his own actions after the fact

[bigbadredpanda]

Helloo, would it be a possible interpretation that the ideals and mindset that wwx follows is close to the religion and practice of Taoism?

Hello! That’s a fascinating question and I wish I had more knowledge to delve deeper on the subject but I’m a bit more familiar with the philosophy/spirituality part of Taoism than with its religious practices and rites. As always, anyone is welcome to add to the discussion or correct me if I misconstrue something, this is a vast topic and I’m just an interested layperson!

Xianxia in itself is a literary genre rife with references to Taoism: the pursuit of immortality, the internal alchemy to form a golden core, the Taoist exorcisms to drive out evil spirits, Taoist incantations and talismans, etc... But that does not necessarily make cultivators Taoists.

At the heart of Taoism is the philosophy of espousing harmony with nature, with the self, with the Tao. It’s about simplicity, spontaneity, non-attachment to worldly desires. In the introduction of my copy of the Zhuangzi (庄子), one of the main Taoist texts, the translator chooses the hero Yu the Great to epitomise the “going with the flow instead of fighting against the current” attitude dear to Taoists. Yu the Great is a legendary figure whose father, Kun, was tasked by the emperor Shun to protect the country from floods. Kun built barrages and dykes that held momentarily the waters in check but they ended up bursting, causing a flood even more devastating. The emperor banished Kun and entrusted the son, Yu the Great, with the same mission. Yu the Great succeeded by digging canals to help the course of water and let it flow to the sea. Yu the Great is referenced several times in the Zhuangzi and, interestingly, Wei Wuxian himself takes him as a model when he challenges Lan Qiren in the classroom and sows the seeds of what would become the foundation of his demonic cultivation:

魏无羡道：“横竖有些东西度化无用，何不加以利用？大禹治水亦知，堵为下策，疏为上策。镇压即为堵，岂非下策……”

Wei Wuxian said, “Anyway, there are some things that cannot be liberated so why not make use of them? Yu the Great who controlled the waters knew that building barrages to block was ineffective and dredging canals to reroute was the superior method. Suppression counts as blocking, wouldn’t is also be considered ineffective...” (ch.14)

The carefree and unfettered part of Wei Wuxian’s nature does fit Taoist ideals, you even have the opposition of the more Confucian-oriented Gusu Lan Sect and its rigid abidance with rules and ethics. However, Wei Wuxian is at odds with a key concept of Taoism: the principle of non-action (无为 wuwei). It’s not passivity or laziness, it’s letting nature runs its course, letting things fall into place. Wei Wuxian is very much shown to be assertive, even wilful, when his mind and heart are set on one thing. He does not hesitate to take matters into his own hands and jump into action. That’s especially true of his younger self who would rebel instead of do nothing, his older and wiser self after he is reborn is a bit more circumspect and knows when to speak out and when to hold his peace. Non-action is seen as the guiding principle of an ideal ruler, without the interference of government meddling, the state would (hypothetically) flourish on its own. I’ve seen some good meta on both the Chinese and the English-speaking sides of the fandom that makes good arguments that it’s actually Lan Xichen who personifies best this concept (x). Speaking of other characters from MDZS that parallel Taoist parables, Nie Huaisang reminds of the good-for-nothing tree which is praised by Zhuangzi. Because it bears no fruit, no one tore its branches to strip the fruits from them, because its wood is of poor quality, no carpenters cut it down. It is left alone and it is able to live long.

The Tao Te Ching (道德经, Daodejing) expounds three basic virtues called the Three Treasures (三宝): compassion (慈), frugality (俭) and humility (不敢为天下先, lit. ‘daring not to put oneself before others’ or ‘daring not to be first in the world’). The first two are for sure among Wei Wuxian’s qualities but the last one is more contentious, not because he is arrogant or boastful but because he dares setting himself apart. The following analysis in from a commentary of the Taoist text:

The third treasure, daring not be at the world's front, is the Taoist way to avoid premature death. To be at the world's front is to expose oneself, to render oneself vulnerable to the world's destructive forces, while to remain behind and to be humble is to allow oneself time to fully ripen and bear fruit. This is a treasure whose secret spring is the fear of losing one's life before one's time. This fear of death, out of a love for life, is indeed the key to Taoist wisdom. (Ellen M. Chen) 

Wei Wuxian did not hesitate to ‘expose himself’ by being willing to be the first practitioner of demonic cultivation and in the end his downfall was at the hands of ‘the world’s destructive forces’, warmongering rumours and bloodthirsty hostility. Wei Wuxian is also not subject to fear of death, there are a few quotes that exemplify his carefree, devil-may-care mindset:

使我徒有身后名不如���时一杯酒。

Better have a cup of wine here and now rather than leave behind a posthumous good name. (ch.75 & Wei Wuxian’s CQL character song Qu Jin Chen Qing)

The quotation above comes from A New Account of the Tales of the World (世说新语), a collection of various anecdotes that was compiled in the 5th century, fittingly it’s from the “The Free and Unrestrained” (任诞) section.

生前哪管身后事，浪得几日是几日。

Why care about what happens after death while one is alive? Better live life to the utmost while one can. (ch.16)

I’m not sure if this one is a literary citation or not as I haven’t been able to track down a quote with this exact wording but it was very reminiscent to me to a chapter of the Liezi (列子), another Taoist text, attributes the following thoughts to the hedonist philosopher Yang Zhu:

One hundred years is the limit of a long life. Not one in a thousand ever attains it. Suppose there is one such person. Infancy and feeble old age take almost half of his time. Rest during sleep at night and what is wasted during the waking hours in the daytime take almost half of that. Pain and sickness, sorrow and suffering, death (of relatives) and worry and fear take almost half of the rest. In the ten and some years that is left, I reckon, there is not one moment in which we can be happy, at ease without worry. This being the case, what is life for? What pleasure is there? For beauty and abundance, that is all. For music and sex, that is all. But the desire for beauty and abundance cannot always be satisfied, and music and sex cannot always be enjoyed. Besides, we are prohibited by punishment and exhorted by rewards, pushed by fame and checked by law. We busily strive for the empty praise which is only temporary, and seek extra glory that would come after death. Being alone ourselves, we pay great care to what our ears hear and what our eyes see, and are much concerned with what is right or wrong for our bodies and minds. Thus we lose the great happiness of the present and cannot give ourselves free rein for a single moment. What is the difference between that and many chains and double prisons?

"Men of great antiquity knew that life meant to be temporarily present and death meant to be temporarily away. Therefore they acted as they pleased and did not turn away from what they naturally desired. They would not give up what could amuse their own persons at the time. Therefore they were not exhorted by fame. They roamed as their nature directed and would not be at odds with anything. They did not care for a name after death and therefore punishment never touched them. They took no heed of fame, being ahead or being behind, or the span of life."

The myriad creatures are different in life but the same in death. In life they may be worthy or stupid, honorable or humble. This is where they differ. In death they all stink, rot, disintegrate, and disappear. This is where they are the same. [...] The man of virtue and the sage die; the wicked and the stupid also die. In life they were Yao and Shun [sage-emperors]; in death they are rotten bones. In life they were Jie and Zhou [wicked kings]; in death they are rotten bones. Thus they all became rotten bones just the same. Who knows their difference? Let us enjoy our present life. Why should we worry about what comes after death?” (A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy, trans. Wing-tsit Chan)

It’s quite a long extract so I highlighted the most relevant parts that echo Wei Wuxian’s ideas and in particular his motto in life:

是非在己，毁誉由人，得失不论 。

Right and wrong are decided by oneself, praise and condemnation depend on others, gains and losses are insignificant. (ch.75)

This is for me the defining quote of the novel that encapsulates the overarching theme of the story. This sentence is so popular that it’s the go-to quote on Wei Wuxian-related merch and it also features on the cover of the book in simplified Chinese.

We find in the Yang Zhu chapter of the Liezi the same ‘carpe diem’ attitude, the nonchalance about death, the disregard of social conventions and the futility of reputation. Nevertheless, Yang Zhu does not exactly have a place with other Taoist thinkers as he promotes acting in self-interest, a form of ethical egotism that does not take heed of other people’s benefit. The translator from the extract above calls it ‘negative Taoism’. As we are well aware, Wei Wuxian has a much more benevolent and altruistic outlook:

我娘说过的，你要记着别人对你的好，不要去记你对别人的好。人心里不要装那么多东西，这样才会快活自在。

My mom said that you should remember the kindness you received from others and not the kindness you gave. That's the only way to find happiness and be free as the heart can only carry so much. (ch.113)

Wei Wuxian’s life philosophy is about remembering the good you've been granted and keep giving without expecting anything in return. If you let yourself to be fettered by bad memories, if you dwell on the past, negative feelings like anger and envy will take roots in your heart. It takes great courage and integrity to be able to move on from painful experiences without holding grudges and retain the ability to greet the future with a smile.

These themes remind me of the lyrics of the song Enlightenment (悟) from the film Shaolin,《新少林寺》, it’s a moving song that draws a lot from Buddhist influences:

为何君视而不见 规矩定方圆

Why do you look without seeing and let conventions decide the rules?

悟性 悟觉 悟空 心甘情愿

I open my heart, coming to my senses and awakening to emptiness

放下 颠倒梦想 放下云烟

Let go of your confused dreams, let go of the things fleeting like mist

放下 空欲色 放下悬念

Let go of idleness, desire, pleasure, let go of the trouble weighting your heart

多一物 却添了 太多危险

One thing more adds too much danger

少一物 贪嗔痴 会少一点

One thing less and vices will be alleviated [lit. ‘greed, aversion, delusion’, the Three Poisons in Buddhism]

唯有 心无挂碍 成就大愿

Only with a heart without worries can your wishes be accomplished

唯有 心无故 妙不可言

There is no greater marvel than an unburdened heart

This ended up to be such a long-winded and maybe inconclusive answer but to me, Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism, have all deeply shaped Chinese customs, ideas and culture with sometimes no clear boundaries where one begins and the other ends. Wei Wuxian’s ideals, his free-spiritedness and his probity, are reflected in these different schools of thoughts and spiritual currents but there is not a single all-encompassing one that matches him to a tee. In the end, what perhaps defines him best is his name that befits his nature, Wei Ying, the guileless innocence of a child, someone who can cheerfully go through life with a clear conscience and an unburdened heart.

[marzaid]

Apparently I have a lot of thoughts and emotions on this so sorry this got extremely long?

For comparison here are the scenes where JC stabs WWX and then the next time he sees him in comparison to JL stabbing WWX and the next time he sees him.

From the end of ch 73 and the beginning of 74: 

“…” Jiang Cheng murmured, “My mom said that you do nothing but bring our sect trouble. It’s true indeed.” He laughed coldly, talking to himself, “‘To attempt the impossible’? Fine. You understand the YunmengJiang Sect’s motto. Better than I do. Better than all of us do.”

He sheathed Sandu. The sword returned to its sheath with a clang. Jiang Cheng’s tone was indifferent, “Then let’s arrange for a duel.”

Three days later, the leader of the YunmengJiang Sect, Jiang Cheng, arranged for a duel with Wei WuXian.

They fought quite a fight in Yiling. Negotiations failed. Both resorted to violence.

Under Wei WuXian’s command, the fierce corpse Wen Ning struck Jiang Cheng once, breaking one of his arms. Jiang Cheng stabbed Wei WuXian once. Both sides suffered losses. Each spat out a mouthful of blood and left cursing the other. They had finally fallen out with each other.

After the fight, Jiang Cheng told the outside that Wei WuXian defected from the sect and was an enemy to the entire cultivation world. The YunmengJiang Sect had already cast him out. From then on, no ties remained between them—a clear line was drawn. Henceforth, no matter what he did, they’d have nothing to do with the YunmengJiang Sect!

After the fight, because of Wen Ning’s brutally gruesome performance, a somewhat unfortunate nickname was given to him. That, however, would be a story for later. Although he was stabbed in the stomach by Jiang Cheng, Wei WuXian wasn’t concerned at all. He stuffed his intestines back into himself and like nothing ever happened, he even got Wen Ning to hunt down a few malign spirits as he bought a few large bags of potatoes.When he returned to Burial Mound, Wen Qing bandaged his wound and scolded him as fiercely as possible, because it was radish seeds that she told him to buy.

I included the first part because it seems like that moment when JC has finally cemented it for himself to do what he can to harm WWX. JC thinks of YZY and decides that she was right and you can see his thought process. YZY was right that WWX causes nothing but harm - WWX apparently knows more about being a Jiang than JC and everyone else - WWX was always a threat to the Jiang - they must fight to end this - (unsaid but implied) JC is going to stab WWX. 

They fight in Yiling so that people can see it. It says that negotiations failed but how much of it was WWX pretending and JC replaying the same conversation that they just had some days prior because he’s trying to reiterate that WWX is horrible. JC stabs WWX in retaliation and the next time they see each other JC even admits to it. Maybe it was retaliation but to me it seems that JC was planning on doing it just by what he says before. I know that WWX shoves his intestines back in and buys some potatoes (oh WWX lol this is the man I stan haha) but the fact that JC stabbed WWX so badly that his intestines fell out? Even if JC wanted to pretend he could’ve grazed WWX in the stomach but he put his full force behind the attack. 

After JC stabs WWX, he tells the entire world that WWX is evil and public enemy number one. There is no apology. He didn’t even tell them that he was just defected as WWX asks him to. Instead JC tells them that WWX is completely evil.

In their next meeting just before JYL gets married we have this interaction: 

After he drank a mouthful, Jiang Cheng spoke, “How’s your wound from last time?”

Wei WuXian, “It healed a long time ago.”

Jiang Cheng, “Mn.” With a pause, he continued, “How many days?”

Wei WuXian, “Less than seven. I told you before. With Wen Qing, it was nothing difficult. But you really did fucking stab me.”

Jiang Cheng ate a piece of lotus root, “You were the one who smashed my arm first. You took seven days, while I had to hang my arm up for an entire month.”

Wei WuXian grinned, “How could it seem realistic if it wasn’t hard enough? It was your left hand anyways. It didn’t hinder you from writing. It takes a hundred days to heal a wound to the bone. It wouldn’t be too much even if you hung it up for three months.”

I know that some people play this off as two brothers joking around with each other but to me it doesn’t really seem that way. Maybe from WWX’s perspective it is because WWX is joking around in that way.  But JC seems a little victim blamey to me with his “You broke my arm so you deserved to be stabbed in the stomach. Plus you healed just fine and I was in so much pain for a month.” JC asks about the wound but he never apologizes here. He really does say that it’s because WWX broke his arm even when WWX says he purposely broke the left arm so that JC wouldn’t be hindered by anything. WWX went in for the attack that would look legit but would do the least amount of damage. JC went in for the kill and as an after thought asks well after it’s healed how long it took and then is angry that WQ was able to heal WWX without too much issue. 

Now for comparison: When JL is first confronted with the truth that WWX is actually back, he tries to make excuses for him. (Not going to add that part because this is already really long sorry again for that). But when he finally almost accepts it he chases after WWX

He didn’t expect that Jin Ling really would come at him.

Yet, suddenly, a white light flashed before their eyes. Jin Ling stopped them in their tracks.

Seeing that it was Jin Ling, Wei WuXian let out a sigh of relief. Just as the two were about to go around him, Jin Ling slashed his sword and blocked their way again, asking, “You’re Wei Ying?!”

His expression was a in a disarray. There was anger, there was hatred, there was doubt, there was hesitation, there was distress. He shouted again, “You really are Wei Ying, Wei WuXian?”

Seeing how he looked, the pain in his voice infinitely greater than the hatred, Wei WuXian felt his heart shake. But only a few seconds needed to pass before the crowd behind him would catch up. He couldn’t pay attention to him any longer. Clenching his teeth, he could only try for the third time to go around him. All of a sudden, a coldness passed through his stomach. As he looked down, Jin Ling had already pulled the white blade—now red with blood—out of him.

He didn’t expect that Jin Ling really would come at him.

JL stops them and he asks several times if it’s really WWX. He’s clearly upset and not in his right mind. He has so many conflicting emotions that he stabs him. But the part that gets me is “the pain in his voice infinitely greater than the hatred.” JL feels betrayed by the fact that this man, who he thought was MXY, comes into his life, teaches him so many important things, protects him, and seems to care for him only to turn out to be the man that apparently is the reason his parents are dead. WWX wants to leave without a fight. He can’t bring himself to fight JL. He wants to get out as fast as he can. He didn’t expect JL to stab him and I think JL didn’t expect himself to stab him either. We don’t get a clear picture of how LWJ got WWX out of there or what JL’s reaction was after that because WWX is understandably out of it from being stabbed. But seeing JL’s reaction when he sees WWX again, it’s obvious that he hates what he’s done. 

Here’s the next time JL sees WWX after stabbing him: 

Suddenly, Wei WuXian felt someone approach. Turning around, he saw Jin Ling stand behind them, limbs frozen.

Lan WangJi immediately stood in front of Wei WuXian, while Lan SiZhui stood in front of Lan WangJi, speaking carefully, “Young Master Jin.”

Wei WuXian walked out from behind the two, “What are you doing? It’s like you’re making a human pyramid.”

Jin Ling’s face looked rather strange. His palms loosened and squeezed, squeezed and loosened. It was as though he wanted to say something, but couldn’t open his mouth. He could only use his eyes to look at the place on Wei WuXian’s stomach where he had stabbed him. Lan JingYi seemed deeply frightened, “Y-Y-You! You do not want to stab him again, do you?”

Jin Ling’s face froze

Yes we have protective Lans but JL is trying to say something but can’t find any way to do so. WWX seems to understand this because he does this: 

JingYi on the left and SiZhui on the right, Wei WuXian wrapped his arms around both of the children, “Alright, let’s hurry out of here.”

We see JL is clenching and unclenching his fists and he’s trying to open his mouth but can’t. (Reminiscent of poor JZX screaming at JYL that he loves her awkwardly? He really is his father’s son. Poor boy!) He stares at the place where he stabbed WWX. You can sense the regret that JL is feeling and how he wants to apologize but can’t find the words or the means to do so. 

But it’s important that WWX understands this and he redirects LJY and LSZ away from JL to give him space. He wraps his arms around the two boys and tells them they ned to leave the cave. He understands JL’s pride and confusion and pain and respects that. Instead of forcing the boy to talk in front of all his peers, he changes everyone’s focus to leaving so that when JL is ready he can eventually go up to WWX when he’s ready and talk to him. 

The stabbing aspect might be the same but it’s so clear when you look at the events leading up to, during, and after the stabbing that the reasons and reactions are vastly different. JC was planning on harming WWX and staged a scenario where he would be able to do that and get away with it. On the other hand, JL is trying to give WWX an out and seems to be begging him not to be him because he really doesn’t want to stab him. He only does because he finally breaks and can’t contain his emotions anymore. We see his regret and his pain yet his inability to find a way to describe that. 

To reduce JL and JC to being the same person and saying that their motivations and reactions are the same really greatly diminishes the nuances of the work and their characters. 

I don’t get why people say JL stabbing WWX in the same place JC did means neither really wanted to hurt WWX. WQ chewed out WWX for getting stabbed there because it was a dangerous place and the novel outright says that it’s only because he had Cloud Recesses healing techniques that he healed from JL’s stab as well as he did. Just where did this argument even come from, it’s outright stated how fatal those wounds almost ended up being

That’s an argument?????????? JL didn’t really want to hurt WWX, he stabbed mostly on instinct and I imagine his training meant he went for a place that would do a lot of damage without thinking, but JC? He had time to think. To plan his course of action. Their duel was staged. He wasn’t stabbing WWX in a moment of instinctive horror, it was a calculated act aimed at someone who wasn’t expecting a serious injury. And yeah, when both JC and JL stab him it is explicitly pointed out that he would have died if he didn’t have access to quick and high-quality medical care. Do the people saying this sort of thing just not realize how dangerous gut wounds are????????