#'introduced' will as a love interest for him in s4 right. but jonathan and nancy have been together. and are together. same with nancy

[maddy-ferguson]

Ppl who think that jncy is 100% endgame and there was and is no feelings from nancy towards steve sounds like ppl who refuse to see that el, mike and will situation is a love triangle. I am sorreeey but it aint making sense with the logic here chief

not you sending this to me, someone who thinks there was and is no feelings from nancy to steve💔 i mean it's not like i think she was never into him i just don't think she ever Loved him. and continuing that line of thought, in season 4 i genuinely dooon't see her feeling anything deep enough for her to uproot her relationship with jonathan.

to me either way they brought stncy back to remind us that no relationship we've been used to since season 1 is safe.

which could mean, for this particular love triangle, that they're gonna have steve and nancy end up together (which just doesn't make sense. thematically. i don't see it happening. at all. which is why a lot of people aren't really worried about jncy). or that while stncy doesn't come back the relationship we've been used to since season 1 (jncy) is still not gonna be endgame. or that this is all gonna strengthen jncy and that the no relationship we've been used to since season 1 is safe thing only applies to mlvn

[ramblings-of-lola]

My thoughts on Stranger Things S4

I'm going to break down my thoughts in categories because that's easier for me

Plotlines

The plot line with Murray, Joyce, and Hopper was great! I loved Murray and Joyce's dynamic and Yuri was frustratingly hilarious. I also love Hopper's strength and self-reflection when he was in the camps. And when he reunited with Joyce 🥰

The plot line in California with Jonathan, Mike, Argyle, and Will bored me for the most part. It is also so frustrating that Will is clearly internally dealing with something (I've seen fans guessing he's gay and has a crush on Mike) and Mike can't recognize it. Mike really annoyed me this season between that and how he was angry that "El didn't need him anymore".

The main plot line with Vecna and the Upside Down was amazing. I loved it. I laughed and cried a lot this season.

Characters and Ships

Max's grief and fear of being killed by Vecna brought me to tears multiple times this season. That scene when she read her letter to Billy at his grave broke me.

I love that Robin and Nancy got to know each other better too. I really enjoyed their visit to the asylum with Victor and getting to see Vecna's backstory. The girls' personalities contrast with each other so much and that dynamic was great to watch.

Steve's annoyance at being the babysitter was really funny. I also enjoyed his dynamic with Eddie, they are hilarious together.

Eddie was a character that I did not like when he was first introduced but he definitely grew on me as the season went on. His banter with the characters was great and his relationship with Dustin was so wholesome. And I can't believe he was killed off, what is it with this show killing the characters that have the biggest potential for character development?? It's infuriating.

Robin was one of the characters I was the most excited to see in season 4. I loved her helping the group and braving the Upside Down even though she was rightful scared. I also loved her and Steve navigating her crush on Vickie.

Argyle's character was kinda meh to me. He was funny sometimes, but I wish we knew more about him.

Jason's character terrified me. He instantly wanted blood and was able to rally his friends and the town behind him.

El's journey throughout the season was great. She had a lot of self-discovery and the exploration of her relationships with Dr. Brenner and Henry were so interesting.

Vecna / Henry's character was definitely the highlight of season four. This was the first time a human-like villain was introduced and I was obsessed every time he was on screen. His presence was amazing in both the flashback scenes and as Vecna due to how unsettling his character is. Before it was revealed that he has been the monsters in each season all along, I wondered if that was the case. I can't wait to see what happens next season.

Nancy's was great this season. I've loved seeing her progression over the seasons as her confidence grows. And her determination to kill Vecna when she shot him and "I have two guns in my room", I love her.

I'm not sure how I feel about the love triangle that's forming with her and Jonathan. Jonathan and Nancy have been through a lot together but their lives are starting to go into different directions and I wish they would just talk about it! It seems like Steve and Nancy might be developing feelings for each other again and I don't know how I feel about it. Both their characters have grown so much since they dated in season one that things could potentially work out but Nancy is still dating Jonathan.

I loved that Lucas and Max's relationship was explored more since I feel like it has kinda been on the back burner. They had so many good scenes together, like when Vecna attacked Max in the graveyard and the attic.

Ending

The very end of the season, with Upside Down spilling into our world is terrifying. This is the first season where there is a cliff hanger and the characters haven't won.

I was crying during most of the end because of things listed below

Jonathan telling Will that he will love him not matter what because he suspects he's gay

Max admitting that she prayed Billy would die, that she hesitated because she wasn't sure he should be saved, and she now wishes she would die instead

Max's memory to retreat in was the Snow Ball

Joyce having a flashback of Bob's death when Hopper says he will distract the demodogs

Steve's sacrifice and death

Lucas' reaction to Max's broken bones and bleeding eyes

"I can't see or feel anything."

Max telling Lucas she doesn't want to die

The crew reuniting in the aftermath of the "earthquake"

Max and the crew in the hospital

Dustin talking with Wayne Munson about Eddie

El and Hopper reuniting

[erikiara80]

Mini theory #3: endgame for Jancy or Stancy?

I really like Steve. Yes, in S1 he was a jerk, he made homophobic comments and overall treated Jonathan pretty bad, considering what his family was going through. But since then he’s grown so much. He’s become respectful, protective of the kids, and I love his friendship with Dustin and Robin.

That being said, I think Jancy is endgame, not Stancy. It is possible that Jonathan and Nancy break up during the time skip*, yes, but then they’ll get back together. My theory is that at the end of the story they’ll go to different colleges (long distance relationship), and then they’ll do what they always wanted to do: tell the world what really happened in Hawkins. In every season their story has been about investigating and finding the truth, only this time, they won’t water it down. With those huge gates and all the horrors that will happen in S5, it’ll finally be possible to make people accept what really happened. Nancy’s story began when she decided to find out the truth about Barb. That’s the reason why she decided to become a journalist in the first place (in S4 we saw that she’s still affected by Barb’s death). And Jonathan is a photographer. They’re perfect together. Just like Will and Mike, the artist and the writer. Them writing the real story and exposing all the lies that caused so much suffering would be the perfect ending for them. I would love it. 

*  One reason why Jonathan could push Nancy away at the beginning of S5: Will being in grave danger again. Maybe even “gone”, like in S1. But this time his body would be there and his mind somewhere else (here the  theory ) We know that Jonathan was so worried about Will between S1 and S2 that Nancy felt like he had disappeared. It could happen again, at least for a while.

Other reasons why I don’t think Stancy will be endgame 

I could be wrong, of course, but imo, Steve’s interest for Nancy in S4 doesn’t mean that they’ll get back together. And if they do, it won’t last. 1) I don’t think Nancy wants to have six kids with Steve. Nothing wrong about wanting a big family. But most of Nancy’s story is about not wanting to make the same mistakes her mom made. And although Steve is not like Ted, he still kinda represents that life. 2) If S5 will have most of the S1 dynamics back like the Duffers said, and my theories about Will having powers and being Vecna’s target are correct, it makes sense that we see that trio again. Jonathan trying to protect/save his brother, and Nancy and Steve helping him. Only this time, I really hope Steve and Jonathan become friends.  3) Nancy and Jonathan are the Byler couple that is already canon. The parallels with Mike and Will are pretty obvious, and now both Byler and Jancy have a lie/secret problem they need to solve. This is an opportunity to see how the Byers and the Wheelers will deal with their feelings, and maybe we’ll also get some good moments between Mike and Nancy! Especially after the vision of Mike dying.

The Duffers also said that only a few characters still need developement. Jonathan is definitely one of them. He desperately needs to start living his life and thinking about his own happiness. 

Jancy’s problem, and the solution

Jancy’s problem is not that he and Nancy don’t love each other enough, or that Jonathan doesn’t understand or respect Nancy, or that Nancy needs to be single to be independent (?) 

It’s that Jonathan can’t really be happy until he realises that he doesn’t need to sacrifice his happiness for other people. Will and Joyce would never want that for him. I think in S5 Jonathan will realise that he can be there for his family but also live his life and pursue his dreams. That’s why I love that they introduced Argyle. Jonathan needs a friend he can talk with, and be vulnerable and messy with, like the teenager he is. If I’m right and Will is going to be in danger again or even in a coma for a while, it’ll be a nightmare for Jonathan. So it’s good that he has someone like Argyle. And it's also important that he and Joyce talk. Nancy will be there for him too, of course. But Jonathan needs to understand that he deserves happiness too. Well, Will having powers could also help a lot, of course.

That’s why I doubt Jonathan will die. His story has always been about making sacrifices for his family. Him dying wouldn’t be a satisfying ending, imo. And if he died, Will would be devastated. I doubt they would make that poor boy suffer even in the end. No, the Byers brothers will both get their happy ending. With the Wheelers. : )

I know there are people who complain about Jonathan in S4, and say his story was pointless, but I disagree. I’m happy that the writers really started to explore how all the responsibilities have affected him. When his abusive father left, and maybe even before, he became a father figure to Will, to protect him and help his mom. That is a lot for a teenager, and after all the crazy things that happened to them, it’s totally understandable that he doesn’t want to leave his brother and his mom! I mean, in my family I am Jonathan, so I get him, really. And monsters and alternate dimensions made everything even more complicated. How many times did Jonathan say that he should’ve been there for Will? One night he decides his family needs money and his brother gets kidnapped by a monster. One year later, he leaves the town and when he comes back he finds out that his little brother... is possessed by an evil entity. In S3, he thinks they’re finally safe, but nope. Meat monster tries to kill everyone. That boy is traumatized! 

I’m not forgetting Nancy. I just think that Jonathan is the one who’s stuck. Look at Nancy in S4. A total badass. Simply amazing. Jonathan? Stoned for half the season. Yep. He is the one who needs help. But in the end, I think he will find happiness. They both deserve it. And they deserve each other. 

EDIT: Your tags are spot on, @guy-of-all-time​ Yes, Jonathan’s intentions are always out of selfesness. He’s lying to her because he wants to prioritize what he thinks would make Nancy happy, and not, like you say, hold her back from attending her dream college. But the thing is. Nancy loves him and wants him to attend his dream college too. She doesn’t want him to sacrifice his happiness, and she doesn’t want to lose him. They can make things work. But Jonathan grew up thinking that his dreams and needs are never as important as the ones of his loved ones. And that must change. One could say that life is never fair so maybe he’ll have to prioritize himself and he and Nancy will break up so he can go to college and become a photographer. But that would be another sacrifice. Why can’t he be with the girl he loves so much and also attend college? He always had to sacrifice something. I really hope in S5 he learns that he too can have what he wants.

[chestharrington]

Can I ask what you like about Stonathan or Stommy?

Like for me Stonathan doesn't make sense after s2, Jonathan slept with Nancy knowing she was with Steve so they are both cheaters in my eyes, plus he still hasn't apologized to him for taking creepy stalker photos of him and his friends, and overall he just hates him so much it's not cute. Plus in s4 when he joked about Steve being incapable of doing anything idk it just seemed that him and Nancy constantly make fun about Steve behind his back. And he's just a loser like Eddie lol but at least Eddie isn't such a debbie downer lmao.

And Tommy idk he brought the worst out of Steve when they were friends and he didn't make any effort in s2 to change, he rather hung out with B*lly.

Also I hate that almost all Steve ships have an ounce of violence in them. Like so many people are like Steve's gay awakening was when Jonathan punched him, h*rringrove no comments and with Steddie people really emphasize the moment Eddie held the bottle to Steve's neck. Idk why people want Steve to be constantly physically violated by his partners or think that's hot :/

Honestly I’m not even a huge stonathan girlie but I think it’s interesting to me I can’t even put my finger on it. Steve x tommy to me is a real brain worm though. I love the idea of them I think it’s fun and at my core I’m a tommy and carol defender I actually think they should’ve bullied Nancy more

But you’re SO RIGHT why are mlm Steve ships so inherently violent like can the duffers please introduce a male character who wouldn’t beat Steve’s ass given the chance 😭😭😭

[florallylly]

I don't agree that Nancy hated Robin at the beginning of s4. She was extremely stressed at the library after finding out her friend died, and then this girl she doesn't know wouldn't shut up. She was more irrated by Robin than hating her. Tho, she should have clarified and communicated with her after Robin told her about her struggles. Or at least Nancy should have apologized after the library. Idk if it's on the show or if it's Nancy characterisation at this point, but she has a pattern for not apologizing properly. If you compare her to Steve, who immediately clocked that he went too far when he insulted Dustin in the car and apologized right after, it's quite the difference. Tho Steve always has to atone for his character from s1, the show never lets us forget he was an ass in hs. Meanwhile, Nancy gets a free pass for everything. People still love her despite her treating them like shit

Anyway, s4 Robin was so ooc. If Steve would have had this attitude towards her in s3 (even in s4), she wouldn't have let it slide, let alone still wanting to talk to him or trying to befriend him. They butchered her character in order to avoid conflict.

What's also annoying to me about every Nancy ship is that she's the important part. It's always the question of who is the best for her, esp in the fandom. R//nance is the best for her because she's finally free from men, and Robin is the only person who gets her. J//ncy is the only real ship because Jonathan gets her as they are trauma bonded, or St//ncy is the best ship because Steve loves so much, more than Jonathan. Her romantic partners are always reduced to options. There are no questions about Nancy being the right one for Robin, Steve, or Jonathan. It's partly the shows fault because nobody has any negative feelings towards her and they all seem to be obsessed with her but ugh I wish at least in fandom they would also look at her potential partners as actual characters for once. Like no she wouldn't be right for Robin because Robin needs someone who can communicate clearly and who would understand her quirks. And no Nancy wouldn't be the right one for Steve because Steve wants to be loved unconditionally, that's something Nancy can't give him because there is still Jonathan and the trauma of losing Barb. And Nancy isn't even that great for Jonathan either because she can't understand his financial struggles and trauma from being parentified at a young age, which was shown in s3 after her nonpology. (Tho I'm also not a J//ncy fan because Jonathan isn't a catch either for Nancy.) It's like the post you reblogged, we need more episodes in the show so that the characters can develop and we see actual personal conflicts. But because there is no time, everyone has to be best buddies to be united against the main villain.

YES you word it so well. nancy is always put first in fics AND in canon, and all her love interests are just options. they've definitely become more like set pieces or props in her story, which is such a shame. what i hate about fandom spaces and interpretations of canon is that it can be so hard to try and introduce nuance to a character that is beloved to fans. which!!! makes no sense to me bc the duffers wrote a multifaceted flawed character, but nancy is often reduced to the perception that she's the Good Girl.

and yes, i admit i was pretty hyperbolic in saying that nancy HATED robin, but i also think that what with the st/ancy flirting, there was also a hint of jealousy. i think nancy thought in the back of her mind that steve would always be her fallback.

AND YES to robin being so ooc in s4 bc she's literally a jackass (affectionately) and so snarky and a BITCH. like she's steve and steve is her and they are both mean girls at their cores. your entire analysis about the different nancy ships is just MWAH <3

[itsryuworld]

when we talk about byler...

yes, a lot of people know this but i've always thought that byler stands for mike and will but jonathan and nancy as well. that's bc there's a lot of parallels between them and that's something, you know. byler applies for both ships and they really do.

if is it true that the duffel bags made that last scene on porpuse and jancy is endgame, then i have no doubt that mike and will are gonna be endgame too in s5 bc they always showed the similarities in both ships.

nancy/mike was in a relationship with steve/eleven and both couples had troubles with that. nancy in s2 bc she wasn't in love with steve and mike in s4 bc he couldn't tell her that he loves her.

nancy was on a trip with jonathan and then she realized that was in love with jonathan. mike, you know, was on a trip with will (and the cali gang) and obvioulsy something happened there between them bc we had that amazing van scene with will's monologue abt "the heart".

jonathan was in love with nancy before they started dating officially. we already know that will was in love with mike since they were kids.

jonathan/will left this feelings aside and tried to save that relationship with steve/eleven bc he cares for nancy/mike and want she/he to be happy even if is not with him.

if we look into other shows, every time there's a love triangle it is always the second person who actually becomes the true endgame. some random character has a boyfriend/girlfriend and then they meet someone else and fall in love and that's it. we saw this with jancy bc steve was her boyfriend first but she choose jonathan. and if mike has a girlfriend (eleven) and he's going through a lot lately that might means that his relationship is about to get over too.

in s4 both "love triangles" were introduced again bc even if we didn't had the confirmation about will's sexuality and feelings abt mike, we knew that he was in love with him and his stuggles were adressed very clearly. somehow it was showed as a love triangle bc mike and eleven were separated the whole season.

we've been said that will's personal struggles are gonna be important in s5, so his feelings for mike are gonna be important too. why they would do that if it's not reciprocated? why it would be important to adressed his love for mike just to be rejected? it doesn't make sense, really. mike and eleven's relationship wasn't ruined bc of will, but bc they went far away from that "puppy love" and now they're growing and finding out that they don't match as a couple. if stancy was an "official couple" in s1 and they broke up, why it wouldn't be the same for mileven?

in s4, will was introduced as a possible love interest for mike bc he's in EVERY mileven scene the whole season. every scene was focused on will's feelings, not mileven. eleven and mike were separated and will was there for mike. we've seen that mike can't balance between his relationship with eleven and will, he needs to lose the other to be with one of them. this means that mike HAS to CHOOSE one of them. so, yes, will was FINALLY introduced as a love interest for mike. the SECOND one.

why they would put a love triangle in a relation that is supposed to be "endgame" and they already "fixed" their problems at the end of s4? why they would create another problem in their relationship just to be solved at the end of s5? why they would introduce another love interest for mike just to make him choose eleven at the end? that would be useless to the storyline. it wouldn't make sense. so, will has been introduced as a love interest and they need to end some plots (the painting, will's possible -or inevitable-confession, the airport scene, mike's attitude in cali, mike's fake monolgue, etc.) or it would be a huge plot hole. they can't push this things aside in s5, right?

jonathan was the SECOND love interest in nancy's romantic life, and she choose him. will would be the SECOND love interest in mike's romantic life, and probably mike's gonna choose him too.

so, if jancy is endgame (as we can see on the last scene of s4), that confirms that byler is gonna be endgame too bc jancy is practically byler as well.

[strangerthings4theories]

Billy Is Not A ‘B’ Character In Stranger Things

Yeah, his name starts with a ‘B’. That’s not what I mean. 

Everyone’s noticed an interesting trend in Stranger Things: if your name starts with a ‘B’, you’re probably going to die. First it was Barb. Then it was Bob. Then it was Billy. So, like Barb and Bob, Billy’s probably gonna stay dead. Right?

Not so fast. I’m a writer, fam. I’ve studied storytelling my whole life. And when you line up all the characters who have died so far (excluding the ‘bad guys’ and bit players), I can immediately tell you one of these characters is not like the others.

In fact, I can tell you Billy is not the ‘B’ character of S3. Alexei is. The Duffers just slid over to the ‘A’ to throw us off.

It all comes down to the weight each character is assigned. Are they a protagonist central to the story? A secondary character designed to comment on or reveal things about the protagonist(s)? Or are they just an extra, designed to fulfill a specific role in a smattering of scenes?

You don’t have to scratch your head over this. If you know storytelling mechanics, sorting characters is pretty easy (usually).

Let’s try it out...

One Of These Characters Is Not Like The Others

>>Barb, Bob, and Alexei have an arc spanning only one season. The Duffers never intended to let them survive for two. When they die, they leave no loose threads behind them except for other characters' grief and remorse. (And in Barb's case, a deep sense of injustice - which Nancy resolves in S2.)

>>Billy’s already had an arc spanning two seasons. When he dies, he leaves a TON of loose threads. He never:

made up for bullying Max

made up for hurting El (Starcourt was a good start, but not enough)

apologized to Lucas

apologized to Steve

stood up to his father and broke his hold over him

had a fulfilling friendship/relationship with anyone

grieved his mother (if she’s dead), found her again (if she’s alive), or otherwise came to terms with her memory

reclaimed the sweet, happy boy we saw on the beach

healed from the abuse he suffered throughout his life

hit back at the Mind Flayer, made Him regret possessing him, and emerged victorious

If he’s dead for good, this is disastrous storytelling. A good writer would never dream of cutting a character’s arc so short. It makes people (and other writers) grumpy.

>>Barb, Bob, and Alexei have a handful of narrative functions. They’re intended to show us more about specific characters, or redirect the plot at specific, identifiable points.

Barb is Nancy’s best friend. Her death was designed to propel Nancy’s coming of age journey. In S1, it shows Nancy how selfish she’s been and brings her and Jonathan together. In S2, it leads her to reject Steve because he doesn’t understand how desperately she needs justice for Barb. When Nancy secures this justice, Barb’s role in the story is complete.

Bob is Joyce’s boyfriend. His relationship with her shows us Joyce is holding herself back and not pursuing the man she really wants (Hopper). Throughout S2, he helps Joyce and the kids solve puzzles crucial to the plot. Then he helps them escape the lab and dies a hero. With that, his role in the story is complete.

Alexei is an expert on the Russians’ “key” machine. His primary role is to give Hopper, Joyce, and Murray the info they need to shut it down. Along the way, he provides comic relief, helps Murray overcome his hatred of Russians, and shows us Russians and Americans can coexist peacefully. Finally, his death demonstrates the lethal threat posed by Grigori. After that, his role in the story is complete.

>>In terms of narrative structure, Billy is a heavyweight. While I can rattle off just a handful of functions for Barb, Bob, and Alexei, I can’t do the same for Billy. Yes, in S2 he operated at ‘B’ character level. But in S3 he broke out and took control of the narrative. The entire plot of S3 hinges on his possession by the Mind Flayer. Without him, the story simply would not happen.

In addition, Billy is not defined by a single relationship. Just now, I summed up Barb, Bob, and Alexei like this: Barb is Nancy’s best friend. Bob is Joyce’s boyfriend. Alexei is an expert on the “key” machine. You can’t do that for Billy. He sits in the middle of a whole constellation of relationships! He is:

an antagonist to Lucas

Max’s step brother and the “monster” she defeats/tames

Steve’s rival for the kingship of Hawkins High

Karen’s (eventually rejected) love interest

Neil’s terrorized son

his mother’s sweet little boy who lost his way

El’s opposite and equal, the yin to her yang

Will’s older “twin” - in Will’s words, “a new me” (it’s no accident they share the same name)

This is just with the main cast so far. He interacts with a slew of minor characters as well, such as Tommy H. and the Holloways. And you can bet he’ll develop relationships with the rest of the main cast. The potential is incredible! Among other things:

Hopper will see himself in Billy and become the positive father figure Billy needs.

Joyce will see Will in Billy and become the protective mother figure he needs.

Jonathan will resent Billy’s presence and hold a grudge. Over time, he’ll learn that monsters can change.

It’s a lot, okay? And it’s not an accident. This kind of narrative pull only happens by design. 

Other characters who have the same pull include Hopper, Will, and El.

Billy is not a secondary character. He is a main character, the kind you can point to and say “yes, this show is about him.” That’s why, when an article I read recently said “we haven’t had a REAL major character death yet (Billy doesn’t count),” I laughed.

It’s true. We haven’t had a REAL major character death yet. But only because Billy ain’t gonna stay dead.

Peace. ��️

»»��———-　✼　————-««

P.S. If you want to figure out who’s a ‘B’ character like Barb, Bob, and Alexei, use this handy-dandy checklist:

has a name that starts with A, B, possibly C (Barb, Bob, Alexei, Argyle...)

is a sweet, adorable character that makes you like them (to make their death more painful)

can be defined by a single relationship

has a handful of narrative functions

For these reasons, Argyle is at the top of my list for S4. He's already been introduced as "Jonathan's new best friend" - an eerie parallel to Nancy and Barb.

[lesbianrobin]

☕ stranger things (like the trajectpry of the show)

k first off sorry if i took a long time to respond to this, i fell asleep vjfjvncc. anyways!

in terms of the show so far, i've generally enjoyed the plots and character dynamics that they've chosen to develop and explore. s3 is of course problematic- the sudden shift from "the us government is the bad guy and we can't trust them" to "the russians are the bad guys and we need the glorious capitalist us government to fight them" is... yikes. i don't think that the duffers intended to undermine the show's previous message, i think they were trying to mix things up and introduce a new and exciting threat while staying true the series' 80's inspiration, but the general campiness of s3 combined with the alexei plot was just too much and it almost completely negated the themes of s1+s2.

still, i think s3 did a few things very right. i think mike and el's breakup was the smartest thing they could have possibly done with their characters at this point in the story. the fact is that el has been allowed to go out a little and hang out with her friends for MONTHS at this point, she's been developing her reading skills and experiencing more things, but she hasn't really found any sense of identity in that time because she's so focused on her relationship with mike. mileven straight up wasn't a healthy dynamic as it stood in canon due to this, along with the fact that mike kissed el back in s1 before she even knew what that was or what it meant, essentially making the decision to classify their relationship as romantic for her (which i do NOT blame him for since he's a kid and he doesn't know any better). by breaking them up in s3, allowing el to develop a personal style and build a strong friendship with max, and separating the two of them for s4, they've finally given mileven a fighting chance at being somewhat healthy in the future (assuming that they insist on making it canon/endgame).

as i'm sure we all are, i'm very concerned about s4. i genuinely have NO clue what to expect from the plot- i really hope the time travel theory isn t true, because i think it would tip the show over the line from "sci-fi where you gotta suspend a little disbelief" to "sci-fi where nothing fuckin matters and they do whatever the hell they want," and while i don't necessarily have a problem with the latter, i think it would be too dramatic of a development after what's been established in the show so far. i think they have the opportunity to do something cool, smart, fun, and special, it's just a matter of whether they get carried away by excitement and aesthetics the way they did in s3 or if they're able to pull it back and focus on their characters.

by separating the byers family from everyone else, they're giving joyce, el, will, and jonathan, characters who were all kind of trapped or confined in some way back in hawkins, a chance to branch out, make new connections, bond with each other, and maybe even live a more or less normal and happy life. i personally would really like to see a focus on will and el (and jonathan to a lesser degree) bonding as siblings, and i'd like to see jonathan have his own subplot or SOMETHING going on that has nothing to do with nancy. he's literally never had a fucking friend! let him have a friend! i don't really know what to expect from joyce, but i think it'll be interesting to see how she functions without hopper around during a crisis. she's really strong and smart and fun, and i'd like to see that iron will of hers shine.

my biggest concern about the trajectory of the show is with the show's tendency to split up their ensemble cast for the majority of the season and only show them all together in the last couple of episodes. i think it's a waste of a lot of really interesting dynamics. i've already made a post about the dynamics i want to see in s4, but more broadly speaking i'd like to see them either switch it up more throughout the season or at least choose groupings for the season that are a bit different than what they've been doing so far. it's kind of ridiculous that after three seasons, there are certain people in the cast who we aren't sure have ever actually spoken to each other, or who have only exchanged two lines during a big group conversation. the steve and dustin relationship is one of the most popular on the show among fans, critics, and the general public, and it's the most unexpected!

overall, i think the strength of stranger things lies in its characters. i really hope that the lack of el's powers and the hopper storyline mean that things will be "normal" for a good while before shit kicks into high gear and there will be opportunities to really explore where they are now without hopper, how the kids are doing with the transition to high school, how el is dealing with her new living situation, and, like, whatever the fuck steve and robin end up doing. seriously, where do they come in? my personal hope is that their experience with the russians comes into play and they end up being crucial in figuring out what happened to hopper/where he is, but that might just be my love for them talking. assuming that they stick to five seasons, s4 is gonna be Really fucking important for character development, as it'll essentially be their last chance to introduce and develop conflicts before they're forced to wrap everything up and write satisfying endings for everybody.

so yeah that's about it! i'm excited for s4 and i really hope they make it good gfjfjdjc

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I post a lot in here. Lately I noticed that I leave a lot of criticism of Stranger Things 2 (or Season 2 if you prefer). It's true that I like the original season better than the second for a pile of reasons I went into previously. However, I realized I left so much criticism and comparisons to season 1 that I'm coming off as a bit of a negative Nancy (tehehehe)!The truth is I loved and do love Stranger Things 2. I was so excited to watch it and left it feeling very satisfied. I felt it surpassed my own expectations for a sophomore season by a long ways. So I think given the amount of criticism I leveled at this season in comments on this sub, I may as well explain why I loved it if even just to keep it as a link for myself for later! So here we go!The continuity of the party!Right away in Season 1 we see all the boys together in some perfectly shot scenes in perfect sets. That arcade is so damn beautiful it makes me nostalgic for my real life history where I played games at the arcade (I'm now old enough that I remember the 90s, in which arcades were still awesome!). These four boys are a blessing to viewers and could not have been better cast! They are always entertaining!Noah Schnapp!If you pay even the slightest attention to Stranger Things 2, you can't miss Noah Schnapp's considerable contribution. Almost a stranger to us in the first season, Noah blows it out of the park in ST2. We meet him in ST2 as a kid kind of boxed in, with his life being dominated by others. That could be his mother's understandable preoccupation with his safety, or his need to report every episode to the people at the lab. He plays the role of an outsider - Zombie Boy - so perfectly. You see it on his face as he walks in and out of the school knowing people are talking about him.Then he has to portray possession. It's not just the task of actually portraying the act of possession itself on the field but the actual possession later as the shadow monster learns to slowly take over his brain. He has to portray both the evil and good side of Will and probably doesn't even know where the balance is scene by scene. Then, they asked him to portray a seizure. I have a sister with severe epilepsy, I can say that the out of control muscular spasms he shows as well as the expression on his face are scarily close to somebody who is experiencing a bad seizure.If that wasn't enough, they added in his exorcism scene where he has to portay a total lunatic, if as possessed by a demon exorcist-style. Yet, he manages it all. The boy out of shot all of the first season grabbed ST2 and made it his own.Noah Schnapp... the heart and soul of Stranger Things 2. Kudos young man, I've never seen a performance like that from someone so young!Winona and HarbourThe two adult leads on the show picked up right where they left off. Winona Ryder was a serious crush of mine as a kid (lol) and it's rare that when you become an adult and get into your 30s (which unfortunately I am) your crush can still be relevant. Well, it is. Winona is so damn talented and natural it is RIDICULOUS. I buy Joyce Byers. I buy that she would knife you to save her son, even though she's a small, almost frail looking single Mama. Her strength comes from the best place of all.. love.That face she had when she is embracing Will and looks at the picture of the Shadow Monster is just perfect. It is almost like she is daring it.. COME AT ME! Come at a Mama when you are threatening her cubs, I dare you! There's nothing like a mother's love and Joyce is a real mother, she'd walk through HELL for Will. I mean.. she did!David Harbour is proof that the best are so often overlooked. Even by his own admission his career has relegated him to being part of the background. He was in big productions, like The Equalizer with Denzel, but he is always the villain with the gun or just the extra guy. In the first season he showed the depth he truly has as we went on a journey from hating this terrible cop, to being glad this "asshole" is on the case because he is at least competent, to being heartbroken when he tells Joyce about his grief over Sarah, to being TOTALLY invested in his fate right to the end when he saves a little boy.In ST2, he comes back and does it again... by...Hopper and Eleven!I love that they showed us Hopper and Eleven's backstory to some degree. The small details can mean so much. When Hopper hears her behind him and turns to see her there, in the flesh, his immediate reaction is to take off his hat. This may seem like a small thing, but it is everything.If the cops show up at your house and they remove their hats, it likely means you aren't in trouble. It is done for respect. They are not there to enforce the law against you, rather they are there to inform you of something, probably something not good. It is respect, they are no authority in that moment, they are public servants there to help.When Hopper sees El his immediate reaction is to take off his hat. This is so adorable because she can't know what this means but it is everything to him. It is a signal to her that he is here to help. He is a friend. She is in no trouble at all. It is also clearly a relief to him having told Brenner where they are that she is still breathing.But they didn't keep it rosy and overload us with the MOMENT that is the "Hopper Dance", instead they show us conflict. In that conflict we see both sides of the argument. We see it from El's side and Hopper's side. She is cooked up, lonely and sick and tired of spending every day there. He cares only about her safety. They are bound to clash and they do, and when they do it isn't pretty. Both of them come across badly. She accuses him of being like Papa, and he acts rather childishly with the "wanna go back in the lab?" line. I do appreciate though that he stands up to and faces her power, he won't let her win by just being more powerful. In any case, it's a hard scene to watch and that's why it is good. It is honest!Their redemption scene in the car is also.. everything. El is only the second person we see him even acknowledge Sara's death with, after Joyce. I also adore that he gave her the bracelet.Oh and that shot at the end of S4 when he is in the tunnel with the flashlight and we flip upside down. God damn!!!Bob Newby, Superhero!I loved the Goonies as a boy and I loved (and still love) the Lord of the Rings as a teenager. To see Sean Aston join the the cast was awesome. On screen, he was perfect as Bob Newby, the nerdy guy who clearly loved Joyce and the boys and wanted to help whatever the cost. While the show made him almost seem a bit silly or maybe even pathetic in early moments, it showed his strength in Episode 8. In that episode, the strong stereotypical male lead, Hopper, was powerless to enable them to escape the lab. Instead, "Bob the Brain" was the one who could turn the power back on and use his programming knowledge to get them the hell out of there.I still won't say I liked the manner of his death, but his death at least was understandable. He undertook a serious mission and it was a success, except the part of coming out alive. The people he thought of first and foremost.. namely Joyce and Will.. left the lab alive and in good physical health.Bob may have been a character introduced to die so that they don't have to kill a main character.. but they pulled it off!Steve Harrington and Dustin Henderson!I just... I love this. I love how much Steve ends up liking Dustin. Clearly reluctant to help Dustin at first, Steve went way above and beyond the call of duty later. When he realized Dustin was right about Dart, he didn't run off. Just like he walked back in that house in the S1 finale and saved both Jonathan and Nancy, Steve stayed by Dustin's side right to the end.One little moment I love between them is when Steve pats Dustin on the head after putting the demodog in the Byers' refrigerator. He's "his boy" now. Dustin grew on Steve like he grew on all of us as we watched him in S1. Dustin could grow on anyone to be fair!The fact that they kept their budding friendship and "big brother / little brother" thing going right to the end is wonderful. I love that Steve saw this young boy who was struggling in some aspect of his social life even though he is clearly a smart kid, and decided to take him under his wing. I hope it continues into Season 3.I also love that while Steve's advice seems to have failed, it "sort of" worked. We see Dustin crushing on Nancy in the opening minutes of Season 1 and we get the impression he tries to get her attention every chance he gets. In the meantime, he has turned his attention to Max and isn't showing any outward interest toward Nancy. Then, while not chasing after his friend's older sister he ends up dancing with her at the Snow Ball. Which is no small deal! Did you see the look on the girl's faces? They are intrigued.. why is she dancing with him? WHAT DID WE MISS? Indeed Steve, "act like you don't care" worked in part for Dustin... except it was for the girl you are crushing on :PEl's refusal and Kali's portrayal in Episode 7So I am critical of Episode 7 for reasons I won't go into because this is about what I liked! Eleven's refusal to commit murder is HUGE for her character. She has killed before but in immediate defense of her life and freedom, or of those she cares about. That's reasonable! Kali wanted her to kill a man who hurt her mother for revenge, but upon seeing the children she would be depriving of a father figure she can't do it. She cannot do to them what he did to her, she is too good. She even stops Kali from doing it.This moral compass is a direct result of the people who influenced her in Hawkins. This includes Benny (RIP gentle bear!), the boys (especially Mike) and Hopper. She escaped and won the lottery when it comes to who to influence her. Mike berates her when she does wrong, like throwing Lucas across the field. Hopper resists her powers in an argument even though she could snap his neck in a rage. When she does wrong, it is not excused, she is told! She is yelled at. She also learned small, seemingly insignificant but important things like "friends don't lie". These are all part of the moral compass she has developed in the previous year.Unfortunately Kali doesn't seem to have benefited from similar influence. In fact, Kali comes across VERY badly. Not only does she kill at will, she has recruited lost people to do her bidding. They depend on her for survival, for protection and everything. They talk about her with the same reverence uttered about Marhshall Applewhite, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charles Manson and so on. All of their followers believed them to be saviors. "We were dead. All of us. Kali saved us here, and in here".Those cult leaders also sought to manipulate their followers to believe the world was against them. Kali does this to Eleven directly. She even tries to poison the relationships Eleven made already, insisting they can't help her, even though they already have. There is a feeling of "only through me is there salvation and peace" about it.Kali has saved NOBODY. She has put her gang on an inevitable path toward death or imprisonment. It is only a matter of time. She also doesn't hesitate to use her power to try to psychologically influence Eleven. She shows her Brenner, understanding that El has been brainwashed to see this man, her handler, as her savior and protector. We also hear Axel tell Kali "I told you to stay out of my head" or words to that effect earlier, suggesting she doesn't have a problem using her power against the people around her.While I don't like episode 7 and make no bones about that... I appreciate they left Kali's true nature up to interpretation and redeemed Eleven before it was over!Max MayfieldI'll say it.. I like Max. At first I didn't see the point but on re-watch and thinking about it, she is no mere introduction for a love triangle. Instead, Max introduces real drama. She causes a rift with the boys because Mike doesn't want her there. She also dumps the boys as friends when she feels she was being mistreated.. and I respect that!She also is the person besides Eleven who makes Mike really SMILE. And I mean really SMILE. You may have missed it if you were focused on El finding Mike, but when Max is skating around Mike she breaks down his phony tough shell easily and he is smiling at her. He is moments away from accepting her as a friend and fellow party member until Eleven's jealousy interrupts them. This is probably the first time Mike smiled properly in a year and it's to her credit, because she under it all is a good person.She also plays a major role at the end potentially saving Steve's life (and Billy from life imprisonment?), but she manages to get herself and the boys to the tunnel to lure the demodogs away from Hopper and Eleven, which almost certainly saved Hopper's life and maybe even Eleven's.I'm looking forward to finding out what happened in California!The "pull out" line and the cookie eating!...... what can I say? There will always be an inner 12 year old in me who appreciates a little inappropriate innuendo etc. :PSo that's just some more positive thoughts on S2 from someone who constantly seems to be criticizing it. The way I see it, I wouldn't be criticizing so many aspects of it if I didn't care about it at all! But still, it is good to remember that I enjoyed it a lot.. and why!If you read all that.. god damn.. well done and thanks :P via /r/StrangerThings