#'i don't like anne or henry because they were cruel to catherine'

[fideidefenswhore]

I see the anti Annes are concern trolling at how "sexist" bsr is and how they fear for "future generations" if this is their gateway drug. It's a danger to society people! Win for Boleyn.

It's arguably so in certain scenes, the two writers of the series, one being a woman, the other nonbinary, doesn't preclude it from sexism.

But I would also consider it concern-trolling, and hypocritical, since many of them seem to find Anne’s death hilarious...I do almost think they mock Anne’s fans just for being earnest, compassion is not in currency. 

However, it does seem like, not all the historians, in the final edit, were in favor of, for example, the depiction of Mary Boleyn.

And it's surely infantile to cuss out one of the commentators for something they never said because you're upset that, in this series they contributed to, about their rival, the portrayal of your fave did not adequately kiss their ass to your exacting specifications. 

[bethanydelleman]

Of all the marriages that were "meant" to happen or seemed to be going that way in Jane Austen but didn't (eg Darcy and Caroline, Darcy and Anne de Bourgh, Elizabeth and Mr. Collins, Elizabeth and Wickham, Edward and Lucy Steele, Marianne and Willoughby, Emma and Frank Churchill etc) how do you see them working out? Could any of them be happy?

Mr. Darcy & Anne de Bourgh - I can never see this one happening, but my money is on Anne dying either in childbirth or because pregnancy overtaxes her already poor health.

Mr. Darcy & Caroline Bingley - wrote that. Caroline would be a perfectly acceptable mistress of Pemberley, but her propensity to mirror Darcy and express his own opinions would make him worse.

Elizabeth Bennet & Mr. Collins - a disaster: the elder Bennet's marriage but gender-reversed. Lady Catherine would also hate her and that would make Mr. Collins anxious.

Elizabeth Bennet & George Wickham - I don't see how exactly this would come about because Elizabeth has no fortune and Wickham needs a fortune, but it would also be a disaster because Elizabeth would realize who Wickham really was and she would be horrified. Without support, they would be broke.

Edward Ferrars & Lucy Steele - This would be such a mess, Lucy would be sucking up to Mrs. Ferrars for money and trying to push Edward into multiple livings and promotions, which he would hate. Lucy is so much like Edward's mother that he would just be dying inside 24/7. He's not a pushover, but it would be really exhausting for him to fight Lucy on everything and he's trapped in this marriage, so he'd probably give in eventually.

Edward Ferrars & The Honourable Miss Morton - Not enough info.

Marianne Dashwood & Willoughby - wrote that. I don't think there is any way it would end well. Marianne will quickly discover what Willoughby did to Eliza and that he is far in debt. She's not responsible enough to get him out of debt and her view of him would be shattered. It's a tragedy.

Emma Woodhouse & Frank Churchill - the logistics just don't make sense, since Emma cannot leave her father and Frank has Mrs. Churchill, but I guess they could wait for the old lady to kick it and Frank could live at Hartfield... though he's not good with Mr. Woodhouse but I think he could learn. I think this marriage would be fairly successful, but Frank brings out the worst in Emma and that wouldn't be great.

Isabella Thorpe & James Morland - I don't think Isabella would cheat, I see that opinion a lot, but I think Isabella is sensible enough not to try that within a marriage. You can't "trade up" anymore once you're married. However, it would be bad. Isabella would waste money and James wouldn't know what to do with her. They'd probably have like 6 kids though because she's hot.

Isabella Thorpe & Captain Frederick Tilney - this would piss off General Tilney so much that I almost want it to happen. Almost. But honestly, I don't think Frederick would treat her very well if he was forced in some manner to marry Isabella and I don't want her stuck in a cruel marriage.

Mary Crawford & Edmund Bertram - I've written this a few times, I've gone both ways. In one story Mary is cheating on Edmund and he remains oblivious, in my novel Unfairly Caught, they are happy and both of them compromise a bit. Jane Austen herself has an opinion:

Experience might have hoped more for any young people so circumstanced, and impartiality would not have denied to Miss Crawford’s nature that participation of the general nature of women which would lead her to adopt the opinions of the man she loved and respected as her own.

Henry Crawford & Fanny Price - I personally ship this, but of course Henry has to change and without Fanny's help for it to be viable. Again, Austen wrote about it's possibility, so I trust they could have been happy if he wasn't such an idiot.

Colonel Brandon & Eliza #1 - with Eliza's fortune they would have likely been able to live comfortably. I imagine they would have been happy together despite the family rift. If everything happens as before, they would eventually inherit the family estate and live happily ever after.

Anne Elliot & Charles Musgrove - I think this could have gone really well, and honestly if I was Anne I would have gone for it. Charles is kind and smart enough, he'd have been much happier if Anne was his wife. Also, best in-laws ever!

Captain Wentworth & Louisa Musgrove - Louisa would try to be a great wife, but I think Wentworth would be too focused on losing Anne to be a good husband. He'd probably be very affectionate when on leave because he felt bad and then go off to sea to wallow in tragedy. Fortunately, Louisa's family would support her when she was alone.

Anne Elliot & Captain Benwick - I ship it. Captian Benwick would be devoted and he's a reader like Anne. They would spend time reading poetry together.

Sir Walter & Mrs. Clay - lol, I almost wish this one had happened. It would have been fun. Elizabeth Elliot would HATE IT and would probably marry to get away. It'd be fine, Sir Walter would be nice because his choices must be correct and Mrs. Clay would keep smiling and flattering forever.

Mr. Elliot & Elizabeth Elliot - he hates her, so it wouldn't happen, but if it did, it would be bad.

Mr. Elliot & Anne Elliot - This one is tricky. I do agree with Mrs. Smith that Mr. Elliot would respect Anne more and therefore wouldn't be cruel as he was with his first wife, but he's not a good person. I have trouble seeing this one happening because Anne does not want to marry him, but I don't think it would be happy if it somehow did occur.

Mr. Elton & Harriet Smith - he is a petty jerk, it's not a good match because Harriet cannot hold her own against him and he wouldn't admire her like he does Augusta. Bad times for Harriet.

Emma Woodhouse & Mr. Elton - Emma would rather enter a convent.

Mr. Knightley & Jane Fairfax - I don't know how or why this would happen, but given her intelligence and his kindness, this marriage would be successful.

That's all I can think of!

[eloiseloveshistory]

What are facts that Tudor fans need to accept? (Mostly the TV show ones)

- Anne boleyn did NOT seduce Henry VIII. Letters from Henry VIII prove this. Anne left the court after Henry started pursuing her. It was her childhood dream to be Catherine of Aragon’s lady in waiting, so we can technically say that she left her dream to not to be a mistress. Anne was in love with Henry Percy. But when Henry (VIII) learned about their engagement,he sent wolsey to break the engagement. He wanted Anne as a mistress at first, and she kept saying no. Henry didn't take no as an answer. She kept pursuing her until she would say yes, but Anne never did. So, Henry started to think about divorcing Catherine of Aragon to marry Anne. He proposed to her in 1527, and this time, she couldn't say no. No women in the 1500s could say no to a king. Especially one like Henry.

- Unlike his father, Henry VIII, Edward was not an evil creature that fell from hell. He was only a child when he became a king and was manipulated by his uncles. Henry never even regretted his actions. He was completely from hell. Edward was taken advantage of by many people due to his age( even by the dudley's)

- Charlotte hope is not Catherine of Aragon’s most accurate actress. Both by looks and acting. Catherine of Aragon was short and chubby, Charlotte hope is tall and skinny. The only thing they had in common was the hair and eyes.

- If you can excuse Mary I's actions because of her past and trauma, you can excuse Elizabeth I's actions as well. Both had a bad life and were traumatised(mostly by their father). They were both victims.

- Natalie dormer is a great actress, and she is also very beautiful. But she wasn't Anne boleyn's best portrayal. The tudors portrayed Anne badly. Real Anne boleyn was way more different than Anne boleyn in the tudors. In my opinion, Anne boleyn in the tudors should not be liked. She destroyed a home and seduced Henry. If I never knew the real Anne boleyn, I would say that she deserved her fate.

- Even if you hate Mary I, you must accept that her bad actions were because of the trauma she went through. She was abused by her father for 3-4 years. She wasn't allowed to see her mother. She would not be this cruel if she wasn't separated from her mother.

- Mary, Queen of Scots, was guilty. She was not innocent. She tried to kill Elizabeth. Elizabeth never wanted to kill her, but she tried to kill Elizabeth. She was a bad ruler, not a good one. It's embarrassing how she wanted England while she couldn't even rule her own country.

- Henry VIII was NOT a good father. I've seen lots of TV show fans say that he was a good father, but no, he wasn't. He abused his first daughter and didn't allow her to see her mother, even on her deathbed. He neglected his second daughter, Elizabeth, for years. He only started to notice her in Catherine parr's reign. He neglected his son, the boy he wanted for 28 years. He humiliated Catherine of Aragon, killed Anne boleyn, and treated Jane seymour badly until he gave birth to a son. Only for him to neglect Edward. Mary was the one who looked after her siblings.

- Mary I did not hate Elizabeth when she was born or when she was a baby(before Anne boleyn died). I've seen many tudor fans say this on tiktok. It is not true. Mary loved her sister from the first moment she saw her. She referred to her as "sister" instead of her highness(which she was supposed to do since she was now a bastard). Most women in Mary's age were married, but she was not. She saw Elizabeth as her only family. She viewed Elizabeth as her own daughter.

- And Elizabeth neither despised her sister. She loved her very much. She was the one who stayed with Mary when the court abandoned her on her deathbed.

- You don't have to like a historical figure, but hating on them, insulting them, or making jokes about them are disrespectful. No matter what, the dead person deserves to be respected. (It's fine if you do it to Henry VIII!)

- Most of the Anne boleyn fans are more educated than Catherine of aragon fans. There are so many toxic Catherine fans, and they are all uneducated. (Idk if this can be considered as a fact)

- Anne boleyn and Catherine of Aragon did not hate each other. Anne's childhood dream was to be a lady in waiting to Catherine of Aragon. They were most likely friends. Catherine asked her lady in waitings to pray for Anne after hearing them badmouthing her. Do not believe everything you see on social media.

- The tudors fans are annoying (Yes, this is not a fact. I just wanted to say it)

Hi! This is my first post. English is not my first language, so please, excuse my bad grammar. Have a great day/night!💕

[deborahcastellano]

[The Rules of Exile] Rule No. 10 You Don't Get to Be My Last Great Whatever

Queen Catherine of Aragon was sent into exile because she had the nerve to be aging and menopausal.  A popular legend in that particular histo-mythic cycle is that Henry sent her away (sometimes, with Cromwell to do his dirty work for him because that was the kind of stand up guy he's remembered as) without saying good bye.  She was once married to his older brother Arthur in a castle in the wild but Arthur got sweating sickness and died.  They were only married to each other for a short time.  She then had her first encounter with exile where she lived somewhat modestly (again, accounts vary depending on the histo-mythic teller) and supposedly bargained for fish and sold her plate while her dad and her ex father in law dawdled over what to do with her.  Her father was a war monger with a bunch of kids, he had no problem waiting.  Her ex father in law held his country in a tight fist, he had been exiled so many times by his mother (Lady Margaret Beaufort) that he too could wait.  Neither appeared to find this particularly cruel, and neither did a seasoned politico warrior like Lady M.  Like . . .I get stressed out not knowing what's going to happen in a day while still being aware of certain potential outcomes.  I don't know how stressful it is to not know what country you're going to live in and/or who you'll be married to.  Queen Cat's ex father in law drops dead and she is married off to Henry for almost twenty years when she receives the message, u had too many ded babies, lulz.  super soz.  going 2 marry anne bc babies + she is way hot.  she will only put out if i put a ring on it. thx for nearly twenty years of marriage!  Best of luck or whatever.  Or, you know, no message past whatever Cromwell tried to piece together.  Whatever the medieval royal equivalent of dipping out of a pack of cigs was.

She died in exile a little into Queen Anne's reign, with only a few of her ladies and servants.  Sometimes the wheel (of fortune) is in your favor, sometimes it's not.  It was for a long time for Queen Cat, but then she never planned for Queen Anne. Partly because I don't think anyone, even someone who had headed a battle with Scotland like Queen Cat did, could have planned for Queen Anne.

Sometimes, the hardest part of exile is the people we have been exiled from.  Either by our choice or theirs (sometimes both).  Parents, siblings, friends, lovers, spouses, family, whole courts if you are particularly un/lucky and everyone else is either on the other person's side because they tell a better version of your story than you do or you weren't much beloved to begin with or the other person has too much power over the others for them to rise up for you.  Even Mary, Queen of Scots usually couldn't get the North (of England) to rise up for her and she was hella glam and hella Catholic (appealing traits to her target demo).

There is nothing more painful than this part of exile, Sister Queens.  It's too soon for revenge because you will not be thoughtful enough or have the means to plan that properly.  Your heart is a wasteland and everywhere you go, you know everyone knows something about you but you can only guess at what.  During this time often, your position at court has been forfeited, your rank and title is called into question along with your deeds and those still associated with you, your goods are often seized and people now consider if they would like to associate with you because they will be associated with you.  This has ever been the struggle, even in this modern life as (often) landless Queens - at work, in your family life, in your social circles, in your creative life and in your spiritual life.  A boss has turned against you, a break up that causes a fracture in your circles, side choosing over social issues, scandal and gossip that you were involved in.  To bring it down real low (like reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllll low), Vicki on Real Housewives of the OC is currently in exile due to her exboyfriend Brooks who was involved in a cancer scandal that she was at the very least, complicit in.  In turn, I'm positive that she was not only exiled from her realty television faux friends, but also likely saw repercussions in her business and in her professional career, at the very least.  Possibly within her family and social groups as well because even though everyone knows reality television isn't particularly real, it's hard to know where that shred of truth in the lie resides.

How do you survive in that trying time when the people in your life are choosing alliances?  How do you survive when a lover has played you false and now is flaunting their new whatever for all the world and you to see?  How do you get through when you have been exiled from your coven?  How do you go on when your coven exiles you?  What do you do when an event or social group that once loved you has turned against you?

A note, to a Sister Queen who has recently felt the sting of exile from an ex-lover:

As you know, my thought process on these kinds of events are filtered through figuring out patterns and lessons and possible and probable outcomes because that's just so my world view.  While I certainly take some time to reflect before moving on, I find that the Universe (with me) is generally like, Here's another whatever you just lost.  Fuck that guy.  So I'm at a point in life where I trust that will happen in a reasonable time frame.  But another core part of me (besides grudgingly trusting in the Universe) is like, Fuck.  You.  You don't get to be my last whatever.  You don't get that kind of power.  You don't get that kind of power over me.  I will replace you because I can replace everything and I will burn everything in the process if I have to.  Every.  Thing.

Obviously, if you know me at all, you know I value those in my life, but I also know that everything has a season blahblahblahturnwhatever.  Everyone could die, everyone could leave, every relationship could break, every event could end, every group could break apart.  So, like, when you know that and you've been through that a few times, you value what you have when you have it but you also have in the back of your head what you would do if you lost those things.

In terms of practical advice, I would suggest you branch out and try to find other events/groups/lovers/friends and to figure out what part you played in your own exile story (as that is a key factor) so you can mend what you can mend and move forward in a better direction with finding new wishes, hopes and dreams.  Talk to trusted advisers for their opinions of the events that led to your exile, figure out a game plan to get yourself back to court or deeper into exile, whatever your preference.  I will forever be Lady Jane Rochford to my complete despair, she managed to get exiled from court during Queen Anne due to being her sister in law (and testified against Anne and her brother George, claiming they were sleeping together, leaving them both beheaded) but when she was offered a position back at court two Queens later, she jumped at the chance and that's how she lost her head right alongside Queen Katherine (yes, another - this one was sixteen and sleeping with boys her own age, how dare she).  I can't stay away from the game, not like Lady Mary did (Anne's sister, Henry's former mistress - she married a nobody and stayed in the countryside where it was safe and died of natural causes and possibly boredom).  I am forever working my way back to court and onto better courts.  If you read me, that's probably you too.

Fine, we have you settled into fixing your situation practically.  Now let's get to the exciting part.  The part that requires sorcery.

A Spell to Reclaim Your Queenship

Items needed:

Myrrh

Charcoal, lit

Fire safe container

Fresh flowers (either picked or bought)

Floral wire

Floral tape

String lights or electric candles

two bowls

Rose quartz crystals

handful of dried lavender

Chalice

Sacred liquid to drink

Salt water

a candle, offerings

Tarot deck

Potential goddesses: Your own goddesses (which include ancestors and spirits, obvi). a historic queen you admire, St. Elizabeth of Portugal, Mary Queen of Heaven, Diana

If you've ever bothered to read my book, you know that planning your ritual is key.  Where will you have it?  Why?  What will you wear?  Why?  What day/time will you do it?  Why?  Who will you work with?  Why?  What does your crown mean to you?  Why?  What flowers are sacred to you?  Why?  What liquid is sacred to you?  Why?  Which Tarot deck will you use?  Why?  There are no wrong answers, only lazy answers.  If you are not being lazy, you are not wrong.  You know when you are being lazy.

Arrange your electric candles or string lights into a circle big enough for you to do your work.  Pour salt water into one bowl.  Arrange the lavender and rose quartz into the other bowl.  Arrange your small shrine to your goddess(es) along with the candle and offering.  Ask for her/their blessing to guide your hand during this work.  Use words that are meaningful to you.  Pour sacred liquid into chalice.  Put the myrrh on the charcoal.  Anoint yourself with the smoke.  Wash your hands, your third eye and the top of your head in the salt water.  Then, say:

I am Queen over my own body.  My body is sacred.  I am Queen over my own spirit.  My spirit is sacred.  I an Queen over my own mind.  My mind is sacred.  I am Queen over my own heart.  My heart is sacred.  I am Queen.  I am sacred.

Start making your floral crown.  If you are like me, you have literally spent more than half your life making them and have taught diy workshops on the matter.  This is no big deal.  If you're not like me, watch the Youtube video in the link and maybe do a practice one first.  Spend the time making your crown singing songs that are meaningful to your Queenship, trancing or meditating on your Queenship.

Rest your crown over the bowl of rose quartz and lavender.  Put your hands on your crown.  Repeat:

I am Queen over my own body.  My body is sacred.  I am Queen over my own spirit.  My spirit is sacred.  I an Queen over my own mind.  My mind is sacred.  I am Queen over my own heart.  My heart is sacred.  I am Queen.  I am sacred.

Touch the crown to your navel, your heart, your throat and your forehead.  Put the crown on your own head.  Repeat:

I am Queen over my own body.  My body is sacred.  I am Queen over my own spirit.  My spirit is sacred.  I an Queen over my own mind.  My mind is sacred.  I am Queen over my own heart.  My heart is sacred.  I am Queen.  I am sacred.

Hold the chalice in your hands.  Focus on what you want to bring to yourself.  As a sacred Queen, I won't want for . . .(love, strength, compassion, abundance, and so forth)

Drink what's in the chalice.  Thank your goddesses for their presence.  Draw a Tarot card.  That is your omen for your work.  Reflect.  Hang your crown over your bed and put the bowl of rose quartz and lavender next to or under your bed.

***

Please feel free to share pictures of your work, thoughts about your work and aftermath of your work where ever you read this.

xxx

[fideidefenswhore]

philippa also likes Mary because she believes she won in the end over her sister. Mary had a loving husband, children and descendants, so Philippa gets to shame Anne by using Mary and going like “see how Mary is better!!! She had the best life!! She had the last laugh” 🙄

'The last laugh' thing is so insane to me, she was isolated from her family and perhaps had conflicting emotions about them at that point; but it's clear from her letter to Cromwell that she was heartbroken over the rift ("too heavy to bear"), even if it did contain some element of resentment about how she had been treated by her family in the past decade ("rather beg my bread with him than be the greatest Queen in Christendom"). It's also entirely possible (there's a report from the Bishop of Faenza that Anne's sister was with her during her last miscarriage, that has been variously theorized to have been either Mary or her sister-in-law, but there's no corroboration of either so I remain skeptical) that Mary did not even know about the trials of 1536 until after the fact; the swiftness of the arrests --> executions allows for that, that we cannot place her firmly at this time allows for that (some historians have theorized she was living in Calais with Stafford at this point, even, although I don't know if she would feel comfortable being so far from Henry and Catherine Carey), that by the time Henry VIII's diplomat abroad, Gregori Casale, heard of the arrests and sent word asking Pate how he thought events were going to unfold, George and Anne were both already dead, means that it remains open that this, too, is how Mary found out. How horrifying would it be to learn that your siblings had been executed before you even learned of their arrests? There's no 'last laugh' in learning you will never get to say goodbye, even if your brother was "so cruel against us" (us, meaning Mary and her husband, although the oft-omitted part is that she asserted if there was "any pain I could take with my life [with which] I might win [his] good [will], there is [none] living would venture more than I").

But I do stand by my initial theory of transferred affinity: the whole novel, the resentment from PG bleeds through. They are made to foil each other and it's clear by the foil which one is her self-insert: Anne is self-aggrandizing whereas Mary is self-effacing. Mary is aware of her inferiority and doesn't 'overreach' beyond becoming the King's mistress, at turns embarassed and awed by Catherine's love for her husband and vice versa (although never enough to eschew their flirtation, which I suppose is why she makes her...fourteen, in this novel, in 1522? So that she has less agency). Her self-reflection is acutely embarassing to the point that she 'knows' that compared to her, Catherine is 'silver' whereas 'we' (ie, the Boleyns) 'were pewter, a common mixture of lead and tin' (PG loooves metal allegory... in another novel she waxes and wanes about how Arthur was 'gold' whereas his younger brother was 'lead'...deep /s).

That's clearly at the heart of her resentment about Anne (there's acknowledgment of contemporary praise of her but only the most superficial, such as the observation no other women of the court surpassed her in skills of music and dance); Anne did not feel herself to be inferior in intelligence or ability to her predecessor. She knew she was inferior in status to her predecessor, especially before the marks of gradual elevation to its summit, but there's not much indication that she was ashamed or embarassed by this outside of extremely hostile sources. According to the relatively neutral Venetian ambassador, she was actually rather opaque about that:

Had audience of the King this morning and thanked him for the love he bears the State, and did the like by the Queen, who said she knew that God had inspired his Majesty to marry her, and that he could have found a greater personage than herself, but not one more anxious and ready to demonstrate her love towards the Signory.