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melrosing · 1 year ago

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So I think there's maybe not that much we disagree on here - again, I do think both Stark sisters would serve well in the role, even whilst they have different strengths. To respond to your points directly though:

What makes you say this for example? Arya herself asked Ned this: "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?" Judging from this, Arya does have interest in fixed roles.

I don't make much of this honestly. Arya's just parroting roles that Ned has just said might be suitable for Bran, and the line primarily exists so that Ned can then explain the extremely limited alternatives for women. These aren't fixed roles that Arya has any particular interest in elsewhere, it's just a kid scoping out what possibilities there are in the world - only to be told that there's essentially one.

What makes you think that Arya would want to use her freedom traveling around? When did she ever expresed a desire to do so?

I think it's less about Arya saying 'I'd really like to travel the world' so much as how we can see on the page the interest and engagement Arya shows in learning new cultures and languages. She is also strongly tied to water and sailing motifs: travelling to Braavos, spending her time at the docks learning about the sailors, where they've come from and where they're going (this is even described as her favourite thing). She enjoys living aboard the Titan's Daughter, and quickly picks up dialects and practical skills onboard. And then of course there's Nymeria, who famously commanded a fleet of 10,000. The wolves' names do seem suggestive of what the future holds for them, and I think you could read Nymeria to mean that Arya's future is tied up with travel.

(Of course, it could also be read the other way round - that Arya will travel for a long time before ultimately leaving travel behind because she's found home. But I think that's perhaps too literal a parallel, and when taken together with Arya's broader links to water and sailing, it seems more likely to me that the link here is just 'travel', 'adventure', 'new cultures' etc. Again, I don't think it's impossible to read it otherwise, I just personally don't.)

Her entire story revolves around wanting to go back home.

Completely agree! I think that's her arc within the story - to return home, to help restore peace there alongside her siblings and perhaps with the help of Dany and co, and then, with the security of knowing it's secure and always there to return to, maybe embrace travel on her own terms rather than basically as an exercise in hiding/fleeing. I don't know that Arya's desire to return home is synonymous with the notion that she's kind of done with adventure and exploring. Not saying that's what you're saying, but as I personally do think adventure and exploring are a big part of what enriches Arya's life, I feel like securing her home for herself and her people will give her the freedom to leave it again on her own terms.

Travelling is not even incompatible with a fixed role since Arya mentions traveling to White Harbor twice with Ned and we've seen that Robert travelled through the entire kingdom to ask Ned to be his hand.

Being LoW is not incompatible with travel, but I think it's certainly more limited to just the Northern region (diverse as it can be). Robert was able to travel more vastly but he was King of all 7K (and a big time delegator at that), whereas we get the impression that Ned spends 90% of his time in the North if not more. If Arya ever wanted to explore more of Essos, that's practically out of the question - unless she gets annual leave or something lol

Again, not being interested in being told what to do is not an argument in favour of Arya not wanting a position of power. Quite the opposite I would say. And about telling others what to do, she doesn't want to order people around but that habit does come naturally to her from time to time

I just don't really see any evidence that positions of authority are something that Arya would pursue. And like sure, if she inherited that position I don't think she'd chafe severely, but I do see liberation as very much her thing so Arya just inheriting something she didn't ask for doesn't really align with how I see her story.

You're right that she's nonetheless got those strong leadership qualities, but I don't see that strictly as foreshadowing for her role as LoW.

And on Arya not being interested in paperwork (where compared to Sansa) - of course I don't think Sansa is weirdly interested in the terms and conditions where compared to Arya. But Arya strongly tends towards practical hobbies and skills and getting out in the world amongst people, whereas Sansa's quite happy to sit learning sigils, words, family trees, etc etc - I don't think the admin of being LoW would grate on her as it might Arya.

I agree with this, what I disagree with is this idea that's pervasive in the fandom that the only position of power available is being the ruler of a kingdom. Sansa could be a councillor for Bran for example (it's what I personally expect for her and Arya). There're plenty of positions of power besides queen/warden.

True, but we can basically take it as a given that there will always be a Stark in Winterfell, and if it's not Bran (who I do think will be ruling the 7K from somewhere else), it's most likely to be one of the Stark girls. And I think being a warden of a region actually requires less expertise than that of a councillor (which I think would be quite a bit beyond both Stark sisters). It's expected that a child/teen could end up inheriting vast regions, which is why they tend to be surrounded by trusted councillors and advisors when that does come to pass. There would necessarily have to be learning on the job, but the key role is being a figurehead for the North and House Stark, and having a reliable team who hold the same values as you do - that's what Bran relies on in ACOK, and the North are proud of his efforts despite his being like. nine. It sure helps to be politically savvy and to have a great understanding of governance, but that comes with age and experience.

Councillors on the other hand... please don't hire children

You say this based on what? (re. Sansa leading vs delegating)

To be fair, not based on something strictly in the text but based on how we see Sansa function generally - we see her rally people around her during Stannis' attack on KL, Tyrion observes in ASOS that she has charm and is good with people, she's able to charismatically work Harry Hardyng in TWOW, etc etc. But she doesn't overestimate her own abilities - she's realistic about her blind spots - and I think wouldn't struggle to look to those with more expertise and experience (and I'm not saying Arya would).

I have to strongly disagree in this one, As far as I remember, Sansa has never shown one bit of interest in ruling.

Kind of fair? You're right that the most explicit interest she shows is as queen consort, but she's been exposed to political power play for many books now, and I think as LF's protégé is starting to learn what she's capable of - I'm inferring the direction her arc will take in TWOW based on the sample chapter and her general trajectory, but I think ultimately I just cannot see GRRM deciding that Sansa will be a queen consort in the end, just to a nicer man - like what's the point, then? I think her arc in the Vale exists to show Sansa how to wield power for herself and in doing so, to overthrown Petyr Baelish in his own game. Like the writing is so extremely on the wall there.

I don't disagree, but why are you not giving this room for Arya to mature? you seem to be judging Arya's chances of governing mostly by her 9 year-old self and Sansa's by the adult she could potentially become.

It's not that I don't see Arya as capable of maturing in the same role, just that I don't see the story placing her in it? So really what I've written here isn't 'here's why Sansa would suit the role and Arya wouldn't', but rather 'here's why I think Arya as a character would prefer X over Y, and here's why I think Sansa is more likely to be Y based on narrative trajectory'.

Sorry if I sound like an asshole, I just wanted to share why I disagreed with some of your statements.

pls don't worry you don't sound like an asshole. I was interested to read your thoughts, like if we can't enjoy good faith discussion of these books then why are any of us even here

If the kingdoms at the end go all independent. Who ends up king in the north? I assume Sansa is queen in the vale with Harold hardying but is bran really ok for king in the north? Will it go to Rickon?

talked about this a little before but basically I don't really see the seven kingdoms each becoming independent: I think whatever becomes of the Targaryen legacy, Aegon's ice & fire dream (or whatever it was called lol) was clear that there was strength in unity and I think that echoes throughout asoiaf generally.

I think it's likely Sansa will govern the North (I agree that her arc in preparing her for that role is incomplete, but at least she has that arc where compared to Rickon). Arya's a charismatic character and a strong leader besides, you could certainly say she'd be as good at governing as Sansa. but I just don't really feel like a governing role resonates in her story regardless, so that does leave Sansa (who I personally really doubt will just marry Harold Hardyng and settle down in the Vale for all of time)

and I fully buy into the Bran as a fisher king theory - I don't think he'll govern exactly but will become a figurehead of westeros, uniting the people and the land. doubt he'll be based in King's Landing as that's likely to be a pile of ash and in any case was always very much part of the political plot, divorced from the supernatural and the struggles of the rest of Westeros. you constantly get a sense of KL as a corrupted seat where the monarchs and their court are entirely removed from the smallfolk on their very doorstep, so I don't see it having a place in Bran's reign, whatever that ends up looking like

#arya stark #sansa stark

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fedonciadale · 4 years ago

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" Arya calls her stupid (in words and in thought) and that happens often enough that Sansa suspects Arya to think her stupid when she looks at her a certain way. "

Thank you for mentioning this. It's something that is never mentioned or discussed in the fandom. During the Trident, when Sansa asks her for company, she gives her a look that makes her feel as if she was stupid. Sometimes when your siblings consider your interests as stupid and even they don't mouth it openly still one figures out that they are being called out on their intelligence. I think the reason many people don't see this is because they feel there is some zero sum game in Sansa Arya dynamic before Ned's death. There is also the notion that Sansa doesn't have self esteem issues, which she has and even she harbours jealousy and resentment towards her sister. The only difference is that Arya expresses those emotions while Sansa bottles it up in her POV. I always wonder what would Sansa's reaction be when she finds out her brother gave up on her because he couldn't suffer more setbacks in his campaign but at the same time cared more for an unknown woman's honor that ultimately hit the nail in his coffin.

Another thing that bothers me is the argument that Sansa bullies Arya. Only problem that I have with that discourse is that bullies never cover up for the ones they need to pick on. Arya is also not frightened of Sansa in the way Dany is of Viserys.

Hi there!

"Rubies," Sansa said, lost. "What rubies?"

Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. "Rhaegar's rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown." (AGOT, Sansa I)

And you are right, Sansa fears being stupid (although she has not reason, because she is not, but self-esteem is after all more about perception than real abilities).

"I … I had not thought, my lord."

"Your Grace," he said sharply. "You truly are a stupid girl, aren't you? My mother says so." (AGOT, Sansa VI)

The ‘Sansa bullies Arya’ argument is probably as old as AGOT. I have talked about that repeatedly (and about the horseface insult). And there was no bullying. There were fights and arguments, insults and everything. Just look at this:

The septa was not appeased. "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you're as willful as your sister Arya." She scowled. "And where is Arya this morning?"

"She wasn't hungry," Sansa said, knowing full well that her sister had probably stolen down to the kitchen hours ago and wheedled a breakfast out of some cook's boy.

"Do remind her to dress nicely today. The grey velvet, perhaps. We are all invited to ride with the queen and Princess Myrcella in the royal wheelhouse, and we must look our best." (AGOT, Sansa I)

Sansa covers for Arya here. If she would regularly bully her, she would snitch on her right this moment. How easy would it be to get Arya punished.

Here you also see the lazy Septa delegating some of her duties to Sansa. She uses Sansa to search for Arya and she uses her to enforce rules on Arya. No wonder, Arya resents her older sister for it and no wonder Sansa resents Arya for not complying to the rules. The septa clearly expects Sansa to ‘talk sense’ into her younger sister. Probably because she herself can’t manage. And look how Sansa “successfully bullies” Arya into obeying their elders.

Sansa was running out of patience now. "You have to come with me," she told her sister firmly. "You can't refuse the queen. Septa Mordane will expect you."

Arya ignored her. (AGOT, Sansa I)

That is such bad parenting here by the Septa and it only drives the wedge deeper between Sansa and Arya. Imagine you are told to be a good girl and fetch your sister and she just won’t come. And imagine Arya: Getting instructions by her elders via the sister who is just two years her senior. Again, it’s no wonder they resent each other.

Actually, I don’t want Sansa to find out that Robb did not want to exchange her. She looked up to him and took him as an example for bravery and I just don’t want her to learn that. Let her keep that idealized version of Robb in her head.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Sansa Stark #My Starkling sisters #Ary@#sansa stark defence squad

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jackoshadows · 4 years ago

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I know you're pretty into Jonerys as a pairing, and you mentioned that the show's special treatment of Sansa, at Jon's character's expense, bothered you. Did you feel this way towards Daenerys/Jon during season 7 and early season 8? As a Jon stan as well, I felt like they just casted him aside/made him her sidekick. I've always loved Dany but that bothered me at that time, did it bother you? Why or why not?

This is a bit long so under the cut it goes ....

First, I think I have made it clear what I think of the trash writing for show Jon. It’s been terrible from season 6 onwards where D&D basically gave him nothing. His parentage amounted to just making Dany paranoid, his white walker storyline ended with him yelling at a dragon while Arya got the big kill and his King In the North arc was more about how he should listen to Sansa because she’s Always Right. All Jon got was jokes about his height and how he was stupid and did not want anything.

If Jon stayed dead at the end of season 5, we could have still got to the same ending because ultimately he contributed nothing. I wish Jon had stayed dead on the show – it would have been a far more satisfying ending to his story arc then being used as a prop to advance the storylines of other characters.

Of course, Jon’s not the only character to have been totally assassinated in terms of plot and characterization. What D&D to Jon Snow is nothing compared to what they did to Bran Stark – arguably GRRM’s central character of the series. They had him sit out a season, gave his WF/North leader role to Sansa, and he had nothing at all to do in defeating the White Walkers other than sit under a tree. They gave him absolutely nothing. And then D&D had the gall to have Tyrion say that Bran had the best story? Fuck D&D and their trash show.

‘Bothered me’ is too understated lol. I loathe show Sansa - one of the most badly written, garbage, self-insert Mary Sue, trash characters ever written for a TV show. The difference between Dany and Sansa is that we have been following Dany’s development over several seasons where she has actually ruled city states, fought at the head of her army and planned battles. She has earned her position as Queen. Sansa on the other hand has done fuck all and then D&D decided that her brain suddenly grew 2 sizes after being raped by Ramsay Bolton and she was now super intelligent and an expert in everything – from armor making to defense planning.

The thing is, we know that Sansa is propped up at Jon’s expense because we have the source books. Jon is a capable and intelligent administrator and politician in the books – taken away on the show to prop up Sansa and give her something to do. It was Jon who rallied the wildlings to go attack the Boltons – taken away on the show to prop up Sansa. Jon is well adept in Northern politics and diplomacy – taken away on the show so that Sansa can ‘advise him’ and call him stupid. If Jon becomes KITN he does so by Robb’s will and as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell – taken away on the show to put Sansa in charge of WF and deny Jon an arc as an actual ruler of the North.

Now coming to Jon and Dany in season 7. I admit I did enjoy their interactions. Neither character was propped up at the expense of the other in my opinion and there was the thrill of these characters finally meeting. Jon and Dany meet as equals even though Dany is the more powerful monarch and Jon has gone there to ask for aid. They argue and debate (With Tyrion in the mix) and neither give way. It’s only natural that Dany would not believe and Jon understands this – as he explains to Tyrion. At the same time Dany is charmed by Jon and allows him to mine for Dragonglass. Jon continues trying to convince Dany of his mission.

Jon walks around Dragonstone meeting people like Missandei who tells him that Dany is a good Queen. When Missandei tells Jon these things, we know it to be true. Missandei was rescued by Dany and is now a Queen’s interpreter and councilor. She has genuine reasons to like and admire Dany. Compare this to Arya telling Jon that he should listen to Sansa because she is like the Smartest Person In the World! What has Sansa done to earn that qualification and why the hell would Arya think this after they spend season 7 trying to kill each other?

Jon starts to be equally charmed by Dany at this point. And then Tyrion’s plans fail miserably and Dany loses Highgarden. She rejects Tyrion’s explanations and who does she turn to for advice? Jon Snow. He gives his advice as a suggestion (Instead of making it sound like an order like Sansa does) and she takes it – not attacking KL, but instead the Lannister/Tarly armies.

In contrast Sansa thinks that Jon should do only what she says and compares him to Joffrey when he doesn’t follow her idiotic orders. That’s the difference between Jon and Sansa and Jon and Dany. Jon and Dany’s interactions are that of two monarchs who respect each other’s leadership and intelligence. Sansa on the other hand is a whiny, petulant, selfish brat who constantly undermines Jon before the other houses because she thinks she’s the expert at ruling and therefore wants to be queen. She even mocks Davos who has been a far knowledgeable and capable adviser to Jon than she ever was.

And then we have the end, with the idiotic wight hunt ending in disaster. Dany rushes to rescue Jon and the others, pledges to help defeat the dead and Jon sees what a generous ruler of the people she is and bends the knee.

The whole thing was rushed with hardly any time spend on them, but what we got made sense and I thought they matched each other perfectly in their idealism and desire to help their people.

As for season 8, yeah, I got nothing. It was trash and everyone was trashed. Was Jon sidelined? Yes, he was. But maybe that’s better than what they did to Dany? Because Jon was basically used to seed betrayal and make Dany paranoid and drive her down a path of madness and destruction and finally death. At least Jon got to be free and happy beyond the wall with his true family - the loyal freefolk - and Ghost.

Ultimately Dany is a major character in the series with her rise paralleling Jon’s at the other end of the world on the Wall. They are Fire and Ice and their meeting and uniting to defeat the Others along with Bran and Arya will be a big part of their story and I thought season 7 reflected that even if it was rushed. On the other hand I doubt Sansa and Jon even meet again, seeing as their stories and characters are least connected in the books

Show Sansa was dumped into Jon’s book plot and it then becomes Sansa’s story with Jon as a side character. This happened because D&D found Sansa’s book plot in the Vale to be boring and wanted Sansa at the center of the more interesting North plot in the books. This happened because D&D were writing for Sophie Turner instead of book Sansa. This also lead to the undermining of Jon’s relationships with his other Stark siblings like Arya and Bran. We got Arya supporting Sansa over Jon!! – that’s how shit the writing for the Starks became after D&D centered everything around Sansa. Show Sansa was propped up not just at Jon’s expense but at Bran, Arya and Rickon’s expense as well.

As for shipping, I have always maintained that both Jonerys and Jonarya is possible in the books. There is foreshadowing for both relationships in the books. There is the original outline and GRRM stating he is still heading for the same ending he came up with in the early nineties. But the show also hints at a possible Jon-Dany relationship. So we will have to wait for the books to see where GRRM is headed. Hopefully the next book will give us some more clues.

#Jon Snow #Daenerys Targaryen #Jonerys #anti Show Sansa

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whateverthedragonswant · 3 years ago

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I was looking through some gifs of GOT and I saw the Jon/Dany boat scene. As a book reader and not a show watcher I was surprised but then laughed. That has to be THE worst sex scene I have ever scene. They literally straight as boards, not a single hair out of place, Jon looks disturbed and then closes his eyes and just seems push through it. Plus the Bran voice over and creepy Tyrion lurking. What was that? There isn’t a single iota of passion or romance! Am I missing something?

Hey there, Nonnie!

Oh my goodness, I completely agree with you. You are not missing a single thing! There was no romance or even passion, like you said. Imho, it was a very boring sex scene, and they only used it to illustrate what was really going on in the show around them. Not to mention, they purposely had Dany staring into Jon's eyes ("love comes in at the eyes"), Jon's hesitance, her starting out on top in a way while making out with him, and then him taking control and being on top. I honestly think it was also meant to contrast with her love scene with Drogo in that tent where she takes control back in season 1.

Plus, I also feel as if the show very purposely displayed this big love scene in that way, too. Like you mentioned with Jon's hesitance, his face half in shadow but Dany's is fully bright and able to be seen, Bran's voiceover, and Tyrion's perv/creeper act. And they didn't even show Dany and Jon's supposed first kiss, they just went straight into the boatsex! Soft lighting/candlelight indicates romance, sure, but to have his face half in shadow and not hers...I think that's a very big tell right there. Either he's not as much in love with her as the audience is being led to believe, he's hiding something, or both.

I think they were also trying to show that this may not be a romance for the ages and that there may not be an HEA in store for them as a couple. There are so many signs as to why it appears that Jon may not feel the same as Dany does for him in this moment: involving his past with Ygritte, his family, his show!wildling arc, not to mention the warped power dynamics between Jon and Dany that to me are very apparent before the boatsex scene even happens, and just how Jon's showverse character absolutely would not stay in character should he give himself over to the romance, throwing all caution to the wind.

I'm not sure if you're aware of what happens in the end for these two on the show, Nonnie, but if not, I won't spoil it. I will say, though, it is quite a wild ride.

I myself have not read past Book 2 but it should be interesting to see if GRRM pairs these two characters up in the last two books, romantically or platonically. From what I hear, book!Dany and book!Jon are somewhat different than their showverse counterparts.

We shall see. ;-) Thank you so much for the ask, Nonnie! I love discussing GoT. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. <3

#ask #got #game of thrones #anti-jonerys #slightly?#ask answered #jonerys boatsex scene #anti jonerys

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freakscircus · 4 years ago

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hi dani, I've got a question for you and your followers. so I dated a friend a while back and after it ended, eventually I just had to cut off all contact with them. the whole thing was only ever about their feelings and mine were never taken into consideration. it was long distance (as was the entire 10yr friendship before) then I took the chance to go visit their city for a while and they'd neglected to tell me they didn't actually have any time to spend on a relationship. on top of that while I was there they constantly talked about the pressure to marry which was not an option with me but all it made me feel was they were constantly plotting an exit? like they were just never serious at all and I was just something to do. and if I'd known it was like that I just simply wouldn't have gone over there in the first place. like, i can't see you and then when we do text if we're not talking about some bs TV show or movie then you're telling about how you're expected to get married when you KNOW that's not an option with me? granted i don't even want to get married and only convinced myself I did at the time because of them constantly talking about it but still, that just felt callous.

they ended it not long after I went home and of course, they wanted to stay friends and didn't even ask how I felt about anything, they just stressed how important I was and how they wanted me in their life. and after having some unpleasant conversations afterwards I realized neither of us should have been involved in anything at the time. but like, I didn't want to go back to being friends. I spent a lot of time evaluating the friendship before and the just frankly unacceptable things that went on in the relationship and realized there was just nothing left there for me. I'd always done more of the reaching out, they never cared about my life (like they never asked or commented on it unless I asked to, no matter what I said happened), and it just felt like if I didn't look for some thing they liked (a show or movie) to talk about, they just had no interest in talking to me at all and that goes for the entire time I knew them. like they'd mention other people they made an effort to reach out to but i was never among them. they genuinely only seemed to care about internet fandoms and the media they were based on and not real actual people; like they showed more concern for me when dlc for a game I liked got canceled than any of my actual issues. I didn't want to keep carrying out that kind of friendship where I'm just never the thing you choose to do. I also had no intentions of ever forgiving them for how the relationship went down because to be friends meant saying it was fine that they expected me to be able to basically carry out a relationship alone and then didn't even apologize for it.

so my question is was I wrong for not wanting to be friends after that? I just walked away from it all genuinely feeling like they didn't value me as a person and only ever saw me as some outlet for their fandom bs and if i wasn't actively trying to be that then they had no use for me.

no, you are not wrong at all. to me it sounds like you are setting healthy boundaries which is so important. this person sounds selfish and honestly kind of emotionally immature and you deserve better than that, even in a friend. sometimes we mature past the need for somebody or we realize that they aren’t adding to our lives and that is when boundary setting begins. i wouldn’t question it, i would be proud of yourself for recognizing that these boundaries needed to exist and that you deserve better. some people wouldn’t have the strength to be able to do that, especially after such a long friendship. the cost-sunk fallacy is a real thing! but length of friendship or relationship does not =/= quality, especially if this person is not growing with you emotionally. it’s completely healthy to ask for a basic standard of respect and decent treatment, and if this person cared about you they would evaluate their own behavior and respect the boundaries you have established.

i’ve walked away from toxic friendships and relationships before and i do not regret it at all. it sounds like you do not owe this person anything because they fostered a one sided friendship and relationship. honestly it sounds like they enjoy the validation and comfort of having you around more than wanting to build something worthwhile with you even platonically. in my case, those people i cut off also did not appropriately reciprocate in a way i needed, and they drained my energy and made me miserable instead of adding to my life. i was always happier in the long run. you will be too, you did the right thing!

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ginmo · 6 years ago

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You're not delusional for entertaining the possibility of Brienne as YMB

“If you think anyone but [Insert Queen, most commonly Dany] is the YMB then you’re delusional” is something I have seen quite frequently, so I’ve been inspired to explain why that’s uh...well, complete bullshit.

To be delusional, you need to be spewing garbage without any reason or support and lack any sense of reality. But… there is plenty of evidence and reasoning, based in reality, to simply entertain a theory that isn’t [Insert Easy Choice].

Let me state that I'm not saying with total confidence that Brienne is YMB. I am not saying she is or is not. My claim is that Brienne is a perfectly logical candidate, and that being completely sold on a traditional choice, to the point where you’re publicly making asshole cocky comments about it, is risky af. I’m tired of people shutting down any discussion of it.

This is GRRM. This isn’t supposed to be easy (he literally said this, as shown below). There should be multiple interpretations to this prophecy. People who think it’s Brienne or Sansa or Marg or whoever may be wrong, or people who think it’s Daenerys may be wrong. Or maybe this is supposed to be ambiguous and we’ll never get a definitive answer. Maybe it’s multiple people. It all depends on what angle GRRM is going with. He could be going very literal and traditional with this, sure. Or, he could be going a more poetic route, which is also a style of his writing. Obviously by this post, I prefer the latter, but I see different angles. I’m not going to pretend I’m psychic by claiming I’m right and you’re wrong, and I’m not going misuse the word delusional. If you come after me later with, “LOL I TOLD YOU SO” I’m just going to say you missed the entire point of my post and my point is still 100% valid.

SO. Here is why you all have NO RIGHT to a) be so damn confident in your traditional choices and b) put down others for entertaining Brienne.

Hang on tight. This is long as fuck. First, you need to promise me you’ll do two things.

My two rules:

Consider authorial intent when thinking about meaning and trajectory and

Step outside the bubble and look at this story from a professional angle. A good narrative written by a professional author has structure and purpose.

Before I properly dive into this, let’s see what GRRM has to say about prophecies:

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy…

I mean…. That should be enough to shake your confidence. He even gives an example.

In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anywhere near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

So you always want to frustrate our expectations, am I right?

Yes, it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. - GRRM

A physically beautiful Queen, or physical beauty in general, would essentially be the Lord being correct of his fate and dying in that castle. The Lord expected to die in that castle. Cersei’s only expectation to YMB is to be “cast down and take all you hold dear” by a literal beauty, literal Queen. That is obviously the reader’s expectation as well. Hello fandom! Cersei doesn’t know who this literal beauty/literal Queen is. She constantly obsesses over WHO, but is always wrong, maybe because it isn’t surface level obvious and it’s her incorrect interpretation, just like lord’s interpretation was wrong. He didn’t die in a literal castle.

See, I’m obviously so delusional for thinking GRRM might be doing, um… exactly what he said? There’s nothing from reality to support an idea that GRRM may not go the easy, literal route. There’s absolutely no reason for me to think this may not be so simple.

….

-__-

Right.

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-Younger, More Beautiful-

Brienne is a possible candidate for the YMB.

...it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations.

For both Cersei and the readers (again hello Freefolk, Twitter, Tumblr), Brienne as the unexpected YMB is a twist to the literal interpretation, fitting GRRM’s idea on how prophecies should be written.

“But everything that has happened about the prophecy was literal so duh this has to be literal!”

The literal parts of the prophecy were marrying the King and the number of children she’ll have. Yeah… there isn’t anything subjective to that, so it’s not surprising that it’s straightforward. She asked a question, Maggy gave her an answer. Besides the part with the children dying, the bit we’re talking about was stuff Maggy added in. Also, is there like a prophecy rule book somewhere I’m not aware of? Maybe consider that we got easy literal bits mixed in so we (and Cersei) are misdirected by the actual focus? Maybe consider that it’s possible for a prophecy to have some literal elements and some not? Maybe consider that a way more subjective (-cough-beauty-cough-) part of the prophecy isn’t as straightforward?

Moving on.

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”- CERSEI VIII, AFFC

It’s common to see “younger more beautiful QUEEN” (YMBQ) floating around fandom. Technically, Maggy never says the person is a Queen, whether literal or symbolic. She says “another.” An equally valid interpretation of that can be, “someone else who is younger and more beautiful than you.”

“Um no, it definitely implies a Queen because the words after and because of the context.”

If you really want to argue that GRRM definitely implies Queen, well, here’s something to chew on.

I’m not going to describe how Brienne’s arc is definitely not ending as her being someone’s bodyguard for the rest of her life. That’s for another time. But that doesn’t even matter really, because it has been made intentionally clear that Brienne is her father’s only heir. Once Brienne’s father dies, even if she’s still active on the battlefield, someone’s bodyguard, or still fucking off somewhere, she will still technically be the Evenstar.

- The Evenstar -

The Evenstar was a title given to the Tarth Kings. That title is still used. Why? It’s interesting to think that GRRM gave random minor House Tarth a specific title used for Kings, and that he allowed the House to continue using that title. Because he created that title for that House and allowed them to keep it, that title becomes symbolic of their previous kingdom. This is similar to our real world where some nations or groups retain titles from their history as more of a symbol. Selwyn Tarth is still known as the Evenstar. Selwyn Tarth is a symbolic King. When he dies (which will probably happen soon), Brienne automatically inherits that title, making her a symbolic Queen. And we all know how much GRRM loves symbolic meaning.

“I still think it’s a LITERAL Queen.”

I mean, a possible theory is that the throne will be destroyed at the end of this and the realm will split back into separate kingdoms. Sooo, if that happens……………………….

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- What does Maggy mean by beautiful?-

I have a really hard time believing that GRRM wants everyone to sit down and argue over who is physically more beautiful between his characters. In every story there are themes explored and messages woven within, so each character with an arc is going to have themes and messages associate with them. One of the themes being explored with Cersei is beauty. (This theme is explored through both Jaime’s and Brienne’s arcs as well, which isn’t a coincidence.)

Cersei’s interpretation of beauty lies on the exterior This is an element of her narcissism (word by GRRM).

(“Cersei isn’t narcissistic????”

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. - GRRM

Don’t even go there)

In her eyes, a person’s worth is tied to how physically attractive they are. She is obsessed over being beautiful, and her twin being beautiful. Her attitude towards her twin changes when he returns handless. Cersei’s interpretation of the prophecy is that she will be cast down by a physical beauty, which is why she goes after Margaery (Dany most likely later on/Dany in the show). But remember this?

you don’t want to be too literal or too easy

It’s possible GRRM isn’t talking about physical beauty here. a) too literal and b) Cersei is being taught a lesson, and the readers are being sent a message. Like, you know… what good quality literature does. This is important to understand. Maggy probably realizes this about Cersei (like any classic Beauty and the Beast Witch), thus fulfilling the prophecy on her own, her own downfall being caused by her inability to recognize power with inner beauty.

“But Cersei is bringing her own downfall by obsessively trying to avoid the prophecy. As GRRM said, ‘The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true.”

And by obsessively going after her interpretation of what beauty is, she’s missing what’s right in front of her face.

“He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood’s surrender,” said her uncle, “but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman.”

“A woman?” Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. “What woman? Why? Where did they go?”

“No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne.”

Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.

- CERSEI I, ADWD

I mean… this right here, imo, is pretty significant, but it’s frequently ignored.

We see Cersei feeling a bit threatened by her rapid fire questioning of what, why, and where.

She places emphasis on Brienne’s looks.

The use of Her. That’s rather strong. GRRM could have taken “Her” out and started her thoughts with, “The queen remembered” but there’s something forceful - as if making a point- to use Her. GRRM also made sure the readers knew that Cersei knows of this woman, and knows what she looks like. From a narrative standpoint, if Brienne’s inner beauty contrasting her outward appearance isn’t an important element in the downfall of Cersei, then there’s literally no reason why Cersei needed to have seen Brienne before. Remember my rules? Yeah, apply them to this one.

“Er, Brienne’s appearance is mentioned so that Cersei knows to not be jealous.”

…I think, “Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature” is basically saying “LOL well he did.” It’s GRRM telling Cersei, and the readers, that her answer is right there, right under her fucking nose, but she’s too dense and superficial to see it, which is the point of the Brienne theory.

“It’s there just to show that Brienne is taking Jaime away even though she’s ugly, but it has nothing to do with YMB.”

Yes, that is also the point. Again, an interpretation of a key message of the prophecy is that beauty isn’t literal, and beauty lies within. If we’re looking at the prophecy as a lesson to both the readers and Cersei, similar to The Witch in Beauty and the Beast - a tale and theme GRRM has been confirmed writing, then… why wouldn’t that be connected? “Brienne the Beauty” is literally the only character to challenge Cersei’s superficial perceptions, and the only one who has been set up to do so. In other words, for this particular theory, narcissism and superficiality drives Cersei’s downfall.

Also, I find it curious that instead of saying, “Lord Selwyn Tarth’s daughter, Lady Brienne” which would have been way more straightforward and which he could have easily done, GRRM instead used his other title, “the Evenstar’s daughter” which basically translates to, “the Princess.” A possible nod to the future Evenstar, the future symbolic (or even potentially literal) Queen, if Cersei and readers want to interpret the person as a Queen.

Reminder: that’s a fact. Not wishful thinking. Regardless of what Brienne is doing or where she is, she will literally inherit the title the Evenstar.

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- Brienne the Beauty -

BRIENNE IS AN INNER BEAUTY. This has been intentional and made crystal clear over and over. Brienne is the Beastly Beauty. A… beauty who gives a lesson by challenging Cersei’s perception of beauty and…. She is intentionally written as younger and….. she will have a title that’s a symbolic Queen and… her story is tied to Cersei’s lover? :O

Look, it’s no secret that one of GRRM’s favorite narratives is Beauty and the Beast. As mentioned above, he is writing an adaptation of Beauty and the Beast.

George R.R. Martin said what he wanted to do was to take the traditional format of Beauty and the Beast and change the roles — and also the genders. - Gwendoline Christie

[GRRM] also said that when he wrote the story of Jaime and Brienne, he was taking the formula of Beauty and the Beast and turning it on its head. He wanted to see what it was like for the man to be the beauty and the woman to be the beast and how that would play out. - Gwendoline Christie

I spoke to George R.R. Martin about this, and he said that it was always his intention with Jaime and Brienne to take the classic Beauty and the Beast story, and turn it on its head. Brienne is not ‘unconventionally attractive’, she’s ugly, and she’s ugly to society. She is the beast.- Gwendoline Christie

He’s taking the traditional format (a romance) and switching the genders and roles. The entire point of BatB is to destroy the idea that love and beauty are determined by superficial qualities.

Guys again, I’m so delusional. There is nothing to see here. None of this is from anything real.

“But that’s just for Jaime.”

There can be other characters in a Beauty and the Beast adaptation. It’s an adaptation, not word for word. Other characters can be used to deliver the message, especially if the character is uh… linked to and romantically involved with one of the BatB inspired characters. For example, in the Disney adaptation we have Gaston (who… now that I think about it, actually has a similar Cersei way of thinking, ngl lol).

Brienne is the one character who has the actual name of Beauty associated with her. She is Cersei’s opposite. Brienne is the epitome of what Cersei cannot understand. A theme explored through Cersei is beauty, which is a theme that’s heavily explored through Brienne as well. Brienne’s character has been shaped around rejection due to her appearance. Literally every page in her POV is about how ugly and undesirable she is. Therefore, it’s very possible their characters are connected by a shared beauty theme.

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- The Prophecy -

Okay, the rest of this stupid thing for YMB. Here we go.

”Will I wed the prince?” she asked.

“Never. You will wed the king.”

Beneath her golden curls, the girl’s face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died.

GRRM straight up telling the readers that Cersei interprets this shit incorrectly.

”I will be queen, though?” asked the younger her.

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

“But ginmo, -sigh-, Cersei doesn’t hold Jaime most dear. The thing she holds most dear is power.”

Is she not always jealous and bitter over how Jaime is born to be heir and she is not? Does Jaime not represent the Lannister legacy she craves? Does Ms. “my brother is worth a thousand of your men” not lose any amount of power if Jaime stops doing what she wants? Is Jaime’s identity shift not influenced by Brienne the Beauty? Where is Jaime in both books and show? Couldn’t Brienne’s influence on Jaime mean Cersei loses power, a lover, her legacy? Jaime is power.

And then, again, there is also the straightforward route with the Kingdom splitting up possibility and Brienne the Evenstar….

Then we get this perfect little nugget.

Anger flashed across the child’s face. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

I WILL HAVE MY BROTHER KILL HER I’M DYING. This is something that is repeated TWICE. Here in the prophecy and later in the chapter when she’s talking to Qyburn about the prophecy.

”...another queen, who would take from me all I loved.”

“And you wish to forestall this prophecy?”

More than anything, she thought. Even in the tent. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

This is another moment to apply my two rules. There is literally no point to this being thrown in there if Jaime is not connected to the YMB, and definitely no point to emphasize a second time that she’d have her brother kill her. The words are not, “I will have her killed,” which could have left it ambiguous and easily been done. No, she (which is GRRM) specifically uses “my brother will kill her.” The irony is that, JAIME IS IN LOVE WITH HER. HE’S IN LOVE WITH THE BEAUTY.

“No, the irony is that by that time Jaime won’t listen anymore to her.”

I mean, that’s possible obvioiusly, but… yawn? That has practically zero emotional weight attached to it. I personally lean more towards this being a massive hint, that Jaime is the LAST person to kill the YMB, because he lost his heart to her, which makes it so delicious and juicy. GRRM is essentially having a massive evil laughing fit.

Another small note, during the Maggy the Frog scene, after delivering the YMB message to Cersei, Melara asks if she’ll marry Jaime. When they leave, Cersei kills Melara for wishing to marry Jaime, which is GRRM telling the readers that Jaime most certainly represents something Cersei holds dear, or else she wouldn’t be killing her. It’s not a coincidence this was right after she learned about the YMB.

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- Cersei is her own downfall -

The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true

In the show Cersei is threatened by Dany as YMB (since it’s possible she incorrectly interpreted the prophecy, wow what a concept that’s not possible at all). This was made clear by the script notes. Apply my rules here as well.

But what’s the meaning of Cersei being taken down by a physical beauty? That just… proves her right? That would be the Lord dying in the literal castle? It just supports Cersei’s superficial world view by sending absolutely no message to her character? From a narrative standpoint, there’s no point to have YMB be a literal beauty. Again, is it possible he’s going the literal route? YES. But considering GRRM implements a ton of metaphor and symbolic meaning in his work, that he literally said he’s writing a BatB narrative so Beauty Within is definitely present, and he straight up said he doesn’t like his prophecies to be entirely literal, I’m going to at least have fun and entertain the non-surface level interpretation, and I’m therefore not delusional for doing so.

And since Cersei is bringing her own downfall, how would Dany even fit? Dany would have been going after that throne regardless of whoever’s ass was sitting on it. Dany’s pursuit of the throne has absolutely nothing to Cersei, and everything to do with what she believes is her right. My point is, if Cersei’s butt wasn’t there, Dany would still be doing exactly what she’s doing. So how is Dany taking the throne a consequence of Cersei bringing it upon herself? Cersei and Dany are completely separate from one another. Even if AU Cersei was nice to all of her allies and Jaime, Ned knew the identity of her children, and therefore a fractured Westeros would still exist. She wouldn’t have had enough men to fight off Dany. None of that really matters anyway, because Daenerys still would have converted Houses through the use of her dragons. In the show, it’s been made clear that she thinks it’s now Dany so...… going back to my points outlined above, if she thinks it’s Dany, maybe it’s possible she’s wrong.

You know the one character Cersei will NEVER see as a threat, due to her narcissistic inability? Brienne the Beauty.

(Also for show!Cersei, I love how fandom is like “Valonqar can’t be Tyrion because Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion” and then in the same breath they go, “DO YOU SEE? Cersei thinks Daenerys is the YMB so it’s Daenerys!”..................................................... Like I said, GRRM and D&D could be going that way, but to use that logic is just…… what)

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-Book Structure-

Hey did you guys know that there’s actually thought and technique that goes into the formatting and structure of a book, especially a book series? That the structure of chapters and the format aren’t just randomly thrown together? DEFINITELY apply my two rules here.

When was this prophecy introduced? AFFC, the book Cersei AND Brienne conveniently got a POV, the book that is mostly Jaime, Cersei, and Brienne centric. Who has a POV chapter immediately after Cersei’s prophecy? Brienne. Why is it structured this way? Was it random that the book was mostly a Lannister twin + Brienne book? No...

What can that possibly imply?

The main story running through each of those characters is the same. In other words, those three are connected to the same subplot - BatB- and are therefore connected through the same themes.

POSSIBLE? Yes.

DELUSIONAL? No.

Also my favorite. Look at this chapter ending. LOOK AT IT. Feel the dramatic pause. DO YOU CLAIM THIS IS RANDOM?

I dare you tell me that there is no thought that goes into a chapter end.

I dare you to tell me that the Cersei chapter following is meaningless, like the structure of a book doesn’t go through an editing process, that chapter ends aren’t significant and the structures aren’t another element in the story telling process.

I dare you to tell me that “Brienne the Beauty” weren’t words intentionally chosen by a professional author.

We first hear about “younger, more beautiful” in CERSEI III - AFFC, and then Brienne is referred to as, “Brienne the Beauty” shortly after in BRIENNE III - AFFC. The only other time Brienne's nickname of “Brienne the Beauty” was mentioned was when Catelyn made note of it. It wasn’t in ASOS when there were plenty of opportunities, and it only came up again (...four times) right after Cersei thinks about YMB for the first time.

yEAH GUYS, DElUSIOnAL, wHat IS naRraTive StrUcTuRe AnD pROfESsIONAL fOrMAtTiNG? nOt rEaL LMFAO bRiEnNe’s nOt pOsSIbLe aT aLL

#jaime x brienne #brienne of tarth #jaime lannister #younger more beautiful #ymb #maggy the frog #long post #morons were my muse

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thousandeyesand-one · 6 years ago

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The Alliance of Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen

I was re-reading ADWD recently & I came across something that prompted this meta..I don't know if this has been done before it probably has been but since the S07E07 script has been released I really wanted to address the politicality of everything this season. This is gonna be a thread!

S07E01- DRAGONSTONE

There isn't much jonerys build up as such in this episode instead both Jon and daenerys's individual storylines are set up. Jon organizes Northern defence which is literally his entire motive this season to strengthen & weaponise the Northern army against the coming Storm. Daenerys reaches Westeros, dragonstone more accurately. Her storyline is set up as a new force in the game here to retake the iron throne & unite Westeros under her rule.

S07E02-STORMBORN

•This episode is where the collision course of these long lost targ babes was set up & no am not talking about tyrion's or sam's raven. I am talking about Olenna Tyrell. During the council meeting of daenerys & all her allies they discuss their battle plans after which Olenna advices dany. I may be wrong but olenna's advice sounds very similar to quaithe's prophecy/advice. The show didn't really adhere to dany's one too many prophecies in the books. Her stay in Qarth was much more prophetic than the show bothered to show including quaithe. She was in the show but not nearly as highlighted as the books treat her to be. Here are the quotes..

".. peace never lasts my dear. Will you take a bit of advice from an old woman?" *dany nods* "He's a clever man, your hand, I've known a great many clever men I've outlived them all. You know why? I ignored them the Lords of Westeros are sheep, are you a sheep? No. You're a Dragon. Be a Dragon."

-Olenna Tyrell S07E02

"Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and Griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." "Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are." "The blood of the dragon"

-Quaithe (ADWD)

•So like many other character amalgamations or character moments amalgamations that the show has done over 6 seasons before, Olenna served quaithe's purpose in S07. Because her words set daenerys's behavior & mindset for the entire length of the season. Olenna's/Quaithe's words are completely in contrast to what Mel said earlier in that episode.. " D: .. and you believe this prophecy refers to me?M: Prophecies are dangerous things I believe you have a role to play as does another.. the King in the North Jon Snow." "Summon Jon Snow let him stand before you & tell you the things that have happened to him.. the things that he has seen with his own eyes" Mel unlike Olenna or quaithe asked daenerys to stand equal to someone. To consider this Jon Snow guy & his story as both of them have a role to play in the Long Night. Daenerys soon turns this mel's prophetic orchestrated alliance into political one by commanding to send a raven to ask Jon Snow to Bend the Knee.

When they are discussing about making this invitation a political one this ☝️is how Mel reacts she doesn't approve of this but she doesn't say anything coz she learned from her mistakes. "My time whispering in the ear's of Kings has come to an end.. " She let this alliance that she set up take a shape of its own without interfering as to how or what!

•Jon on the other hand ever since he saw the Night King at Hardhome his mind has been hell bent on the Great War. He was barely ever interested in the politics of the Seven kingdoms so now is no different time that he is using his position as King in the North to ultimately fulfill his main motive of securing the North against the AotD. Although Tyrion's raven arrived at Winterfell it spoke nothing of Mel but it was a very political invite. It's hard to say whether mention of Mel's recommendation would've made Jon & Ser Davos trust this message right away or negate it, but tyrion doesn't speak of it. Like a true shadowbinder Mel worked from the shadows & did what she wanted to do bringing Ice & Fire together! Jon knew this was political but he didn't approach this in a political way, sansa did, not Jon. Sansa talks about this being a potential trap about how North is one of the Seven kingdoms that daenerys wants to claim but Jon wants fire & dragonglass over anything else, both of which is exclusively available only with Daenerys. "We need this Dragonglass my Lord's we know dragonglass can destroy both white walkers & it's army, we need to mine it & turn it into weapons. But more importantly we need allies.. Night king's army grows by the day. We can't defeat them on our own we don't have the numbers. Daenerys has her own army & she has Dragon fire I need to try & persuade her to fight with us." This was never political for Jon he always ever had one goal which was to overcome the AotD either by hook or by crook. He never meant to be King in the North, even though North is truly been his home, he fought for Winterfell because he had to unite North against the dead. He is using his position as King in the North to see this mission through. Little finger tried to get all schemy & game of thronesy with Jon Snow in the crypts & Jon choked the political Mary out of his windpipe. He left the politics & the Kingdom to sansa & went to dragonstone to attain dragonglass & possible military help against the AotD.

S07E03- THE QUEEN'S JUSTICE

•Before the monumental meeting of Jon & Daenerys we are given a brief personal moment between Jon & Tyrion weight of which comes from their time together travelling to the wall before there was any conflict between the Starks & Lannisters. Indirectly daenerys's command by missandei brings the political in that moment by asking jon & ser davos to give up their weapons. On their way to the castle on the bridge/walkway the conversation Jon & Tyrion have.. "J: My bannermen think am a Fool for coming here.. T: of'course they do, if I was your hand I would've advised against it ... General rule of thumb Stark men don't fare well when they travel South. J: True. But am not a Stark." He knows he is not a stark by right just like he knows he isn't KitN by right but by public proclamation. He isn't here to fight for that but for what he has always fought for. The Great War. Then after entering the throne room the conversation between daenerys & Jon also had some picks I wanted to get to.. ▪Video Daenerys is applying Olenna/quaithe's words to use & remembering who she is & that the westerosi lords are sheep & to be a Dragon against the sheep. Similarly Jon isn't going to give up North that easily sure he isn't here to defend his title but the Kingdom trusted him to lead them he can't that easily surrender to a Targaryen that clearly all the Northern Lords hate. ▪Video Jon tried getting political with daenerys by bringing up the mad king & all but daenerys instead reminded him of himself & shut him up. He dropped the political past vs past act & stuck to the present & did what he came here for to get her help. But daenerys is trying so hard to sticking up to being a Dragon remembering who she is that she forgot Mel's advice to take Jon Snow's help but rather remembering olenna/quaithe's words. Jon makes it very clear that he is not her enemy but daenerys is just not convinced & is still sticking to her Dragon-ness, not giving up on what she wants. "The army of the dead is real. The Night King is real I've seen them"

Daenerys is reminded here☝️ of what Mel says to let Jon Snow tell her what he has seen. She still continues to live by Olenna's/quaithe's words to not trust anyone & treat the Lords of Westeros as sheeps & to be a Dragon so daenerys ends up giving that big ass speech of how she was born to rule the 7K & Jon still doesn't care about either his rule or her conquest sticking up for the only thing that is of utmost importance to him.. ▪Video Then finally Ser Davos gave the Jon Snow speech because c'mon like Jonny boi just can't with words. Specially coz he tried getting close to daenerys & was stopped by the dothraki instead Daenerys walked closer to him to show her strength which along with her speech definitely intimidated Jon. No matter how much people don't like to face it Jon was attracted to daenerys in the very first meet & Daenerys well she was being cocky at first but At the end she did realized that she found Jon Snow interesting. At this point Jon tried telling dany what he's seen, just as Mel asked, which nobody believed. Ser Davos was about to say what happened to him, his rebirth, just as Mel was hoping, which jon stopped him from divulging because if they didn't believe in the AotD then there is no way they'll believe in something that plays with the absolute concept of Life & Death. He didn't want to come across as a northern nutcase. Upon being forced by tyrion to kneel he at last unleashes his true political stance on daenerys. ▪Video

The first Jon & Daenerys meet was less Jon vs daenerys & more Melisandre vs Olenna/Quaithe advice. Dany is just as confused between those advices as Jon is eternally confused with every situation that's why he asks "am I your Prisoner?" You guys this he doesn't get diplomacy this dude has no political bone in his structure!

•Next it's the Tyrion-Jon conversation on the cliff where tyrion confirms to Jon he isn't a prisoner & that he should try & make this work because there is still a chance. Jon respects tyrion, tyrion is the person who started Jon Snow the boy on the journey to become Jon Snow the man that he has become. Jon tells him what everyone told him to expect of the mad King's Daughter but tyrion instead tells him to form his own opinion about her & gives his own learned opinion to him, Jon values it just as he valued tyrion's opinion at castle black. Same way tyrion persuades daenerys to make this work & that there still a chance to forge an Alliance. Daenerys trusts tyrion that is why she chose him to be her hand his opinion matters to her as of now.. Daenerys sticks with remembering who she is but also can't seem to forget Mel's advice about listening to Jon Snow.

•Then next is the first meeting of Jon & Daenerys that really introduced Jon to daenerys & Daenerys to Jon previously the Queen met the King & King vice versa. Daenerys is reminded of Mel's advice again about listening to Jon Snow, she heard Jon Snow but didn't really believe him. That's why she turns back to look at him deliberating him on a whole. Battling Olenna/quaithe's advice vs Mel's. She finds jon genuine more genuine than anyone she's ever met but that she has this inner battle in her head regarding trust.

S07E04- THE SPOILS OF WAR

•In this episode there was the beloved Cave of sexual tension scene. Where Jon gives more proof to daenerys that the army of the dead is real. Daenerys completely heeds Mel's advice of listening to Jon like REALLY LISTENING to Jon instead of like prior she just heard him. All the carvings proved he knows what he is talking about & it's the truth. Not to mention they also realize they are attracted to each other. Just as they leave the cave Daenerys learns all her allies have been decimated & the unsullied have been lead astray into a possible trap. Now she realizes that she has been wrong, neither was olenna's/quaithe's advice wrong nor was Mel's advice wrong. Both advices were correct she placed them on the wrong people she should've ignored tyrion not Jon. Finally just to check whether this time round she is right or not she immediately puts jon on the spot to advice her neglecting tyrion.

"I never thought dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen maybe that helps them believe you can make other impossible things happen. Build a World different from the shit one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles & burn cities, your no different, you're just more of the same."

Jon's honest advice makes it clear to her that he is trustworthy as in he is not a clever Lord or anything like tyrion. Just an honest dude who knows what he's doing & stays true to it. Properly placing quaithe's words "Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and Griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." "Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are." "The blood of the dragon" This advice this prophecy doesn't speak or relate to Jon in anyways. Because dany can trust Jon. Finally figuring every thing out for good & truly remembering who she is & ignoring any of tyrion's advices she mounts her dragon & goes to war. And you know when you wake the dragon .....

•Jon on the other hand didn't have a prophecy or anything to understand daenerys but he had missandei who he talked to about daenerys. Prior to which Ser Davos told him that almost everyone can tell Jon is attracted to Daenerys. He knows that. It might even have intensified as he saw his younger, naive self in daenerys. His self who said the same words to Mance that daenerys says to him. Jon doesn't deny his feelings just addresses it.. Jon then realizes daenerys is trustworthy & also realizes her conquest isn't just a power hungry quest for dominance she truly wants to do good in this shit world.

S07E05- EASTWATCH

•Episode begins with Daenerys talking to the leftover Lannister soldiers & trying to change their allegiance. Of'course the infamous Tarly's burning scene which in actuality was daenerys ignoring tyrion's advice & being the blood of dragon, remembering it & reminding everyone at the same time. She wasn't being or becoming mad she was staying true to being a Targaryen. Not Mad. Just being a true Targaryen Queen in Westeros with the blood of dragon & not the Queen that tyrion wanted her to be. And the Tarly's had a long time Karma coming for them. Instead of blaming it on karma most people blame it on daenerys. IGNORANCE

•Then Jon Snow is waiting for daenerys targaryen on the cliff & we get a Jon-Drogon moment. Which by every standard more than confirms to us the audience that Jon is a Targaryen. But unlike us daenerys doesn't know about S06E10 ToJ revelation so what's in this for her? Except for who would ever dare to love a Dragon there's actually a bit of quaithe's advice. "Remember who you are Daenerys. The Dragons know. Do you?"

"It makes the moment entirely between Jon & the Dragon" -Dan Weiss, Game Revealed Ep 5: Fire and Bloodlines.

So in this moment the dragons knew. Book dany will probably smell something rightaway but show dany doesn't yet know about Jon's bloodline or she doesnt have this ☝️ part of quaithe's advice/prophecy. When the jon-drogon moment ends another moment between Jon & daenerys begins.

After understanding how olenna's/quaithe's advice fits & where it fits exactly daenerys starts looking into Mel's advice to look into Jon Snow. She is already attracted to him & finds him interesting that for the first time she brings up the mystic side of things that she was ignoring talking about something she found worth pondering. Same with Jon once he found what daenerys actually is he started taking interest in her conquest for the first time initiating a political discussion. On top of which their attraction to each other is also increasing by the minute as they learn more about each other. Also arrival of Jorah & Daenerys's unusual connection with him gave Jon the heebie jeebies.

•Then there is the council meeting with Jon & Daenerys as unofficial allies discussing their next move in an understanding. Tyrion proposes the plan to capture a wight. •Considering that the running theme this season has been trust for both Jon & Daenerys. This scene is the starting of their romance in a much more deeper way. Daenerys has struggled with trusting people specially this season & it was evident to Jon when he first met her she obviously didn't trust him. When he saw her lash out on tyrion he knew she doesn't trust him anymore than she trusts Jon but when she met jorah it was clear to him looking at her vulnerable side come out with jorah that she trusts him. But at that point jon is deeply attracted to dany & he is aware that he doesn't have the connection with daenerys that jorah does due to a lot of shared history. So this scene was basically Jon asking daenerys to start that connection with him, compared to jorah he is a stranger for daenerys, he asks her to trust him because it's their best chance at a relationship. Jon taught daenerys the very concept of achieving that together he was talking about in the caves, which daenerys was confused about. And then beyond considering any prophecies or advices for the first time she trusts Jon. Because he first put his trust in her.

•Then the glorious see off scene between jon & daenerys before jorah silently slips away from daenerys upon seeing Jon walk upto her. Upon seeing dany embracing jorah & he yet again asks daenerys whether there is trust between them or not. Bringing up her conquest he asks her about his position in her life & she answers him not quite giving him what he wants to hear. She doesn't declare her trust for him but actually is playful about it. Unsure whether either of them have that right on each other to make either of them divulge any more info in uncertainty they depart from each other. The reason why Jon doesn't turn around, because as of now he isn't in Love with daenerys but rather he is in the process of getting there, anyone who has fallen in Love atleast once in their life knows there is a time after attraction & before love where ego's & uncertainty's has to be crushed. Jon doesn't wanna look like a pussy. Jorah on the other hand has been in love with dany for a long time he doesn't care about looking like a pussy he knows dany knows he is a p.. So he turns around.

CONTINUED..

#jonerys #jon x daenerys #game of thrones #anti cracksa

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apiratecalledav · 7 years ago

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Okay, I'm gonna need you to tell me nice things to make me hopeful about Sansa and Arya. Please. Help me obi-wan, you're my only hope.

Ask and you shall receive, friend.

It’s another long, numbered list and mostly Arya-centered, since she’s the one who seems more concerning. Hope that’s okay.

Finishing under the cut because the answer is dark and full of 7x06 spoilers. ;)

So the end of 7x05 and the first half of 7x06, I was sure that it would turn out that Arya and Sansa (and Bran, too) were playing Littlefinger. All the Stark kids know to some extent that Littlefinger’s a psycho, so I thought it was obvious that they would scheme together to take him down. Especially since Arya confronted Sansa out in the open, where Littlefinger or one of his toadies could have easily been lurking.

Then Sansa went to Littlefinger (doing exactly what he wanted!) and they were talking about how Brienne promised to serve both Arya and Sansa. And again, I was hopeful. Littlefinger seemed to be suggesting that Brienne would help Arya before Sansa (LF and Sansa watched them training together and having fun) but I thought it could also be him implying that Sansa should “get” Brienne on her side first. And Sansa almost immediately sent Brienne away, which I hoped was an effort to spare her from Littlefinger’s potential manipulations.

But Arya and Sansa later had it out alone, so now I don’t think they’ve teamed up (yet??). Unless they knew Littlefinger was hiding under the bed. Holy shit, how fucking hilarious would that have been if the camera had panned to him down there, his mustache all full of dust bunnies? I’m still hoping Arya has a trick up her sleeve but even if that’s not the case, this “feud” is not going to last long and I’m pretty much positive that the sisters’ relationship will be on the mend by the end of the season finale. Here’s why:

1) If they don’t work together to take out Littlefinger, one of them will. It will be very soon and the other will be grateful (Sansa) or impressed (Arya) and they will bond. I really will be shocked if this isn’t Littlefinger’s last season. And if it’s not, it’s only because they’re saving it for the opening of season 8. Or it’s because Aidan Gillen once saved Dan or David from choking to death on an hors d’oeuvre at some fancy event and in their gratitude, told Aidan he could stay on the show til the end. Seriously, there are no other explanations that don’t plummet into M. Night Shyamalan levels of weird insanity.

2) Over the course of this show, especially during season 6 and 7, we’ve seen a lot of characters “going home”/back to the start and temporarily regressing:

Dany with all of those Dothraki strangers, with no army, no dragons,and no friends. And then boom.

We saw Sam back at his father’s house, his self-esteem splintering. Then he left, not even needing some bs confrontation or validation from his father. Gilly loves him, what else matters? >HEART EYES

Jaime, whose inner decent person really got to shine when he was FAR away from Cersei and with Brienne… Well, we’ve seen how he’s been the last few seasons, barf. But Brienne is headed towards him so I think there’s a lot of hope now! :D

Then there’s Theon. Theon, who has been Theon: hostage of Winterfell/Robb Stark’s friend and ally, then Theon Greyjoy, then Reek, then Theon:captive of Wintefell/friend and ally of Sansa Stark and then Theon Greyjoy again… has now had a Reek relapse. Most likely, he is working up to a grand rescue of Yara and/or defeat of Euron and will finally just get to be Theon, his own man on his own terms.

Sansa was a bit bratty/entitled and channeling Cersei earlier this season and now we see her being much more thoughtful and mature.

So it seems it’s Arya’s turn now.

One of the most important things Arya has learned is forgiving/understanding those who have done horrible things in order to survive. Such as herself. Such as the Hound. And notice how after she managed to stop hating the Hound and no longer wanted to kill him, Ilyn Payne, Thoros, Beric, and Melisandre suddenly disappeared from her list. While they’ve done a lot of shitty things, they aren’t pure evil and they didn’t do anything with the malicious, sick kind of glee that Walder Frey, Cersei, Joffrey, The Mountain, and Meryn Trant did.

So obviously, Arya’s regression would have to involve forgetting that particular lesson. Especially since this time, it is so much more personal. She loved her parents and Robb. And thinking that her sister had a hand in the events that lead to their deaths, even unintentionally and indirectly, would make her have a temporary meltdown/throw a tantrum.

And then there’s the fact Arya and Sansa were both absolutely terrible to each other when they were little. But I don’t think Arya ever managed to hurt Sansa as deeply as Sansa hurt Arya. After all, Sansa was the pretty one, the one who had praise and approval from all sides: their mother, their septa, Jeyne Pool, etc. Arya mostly just had Jon and occasionally Ned.

So of course, backsliding!Arya would snap up the chance to finally “get even” with Sansa. Since Arya’s mantra is “fear cuts deeper than swords” (at least in the books), her revenge would not be physical harm but rather completely and utterly scaring the shit out of Sansa and effectively saying, “You will never have power over me again. You couldn’t if you tried.”

But as with Dany, Sansa, Sam, and probably Jaime and Theon, Arya is going to overcome her past weaknesses and show Sansa empathy and forgiveness.

I think her handing Sansa the dagger was kind of the start of that? Possibly “I officially offer you my badass assassin services” or “Hey, want to borrow a face and get rid of somebody on your list? I know you probably have one, even if you don’t acknowledge it or say it out loud every night…”

3) Arya is not nearly as dark as D&D want to trick us into thinking.

In my opinion, D&D use Arya as a red herring for a certain Queen with a boatload of titles and some cool pets. Hear me out. They are probably the two characters who started off the most innocent that have gone down the darkest paths, with Arya’s being the more obvious one.

I think it’s very interesting that whenever Arya does something like bake Freypies, D&D are quick to say in interviews, “Hurr durr, Arya’s getting kinda scary. Maybe we should be worried about what she is becoming?”

And yet, Arya repeatedly proves that there is a line she won’t cross, even if it’s a risk to her own life- She didn’t leave Hot Pie at Harrenhal, despite the fact he would slow them down and had no skills that would be helpful on the run; she managed to feel empathy for the Hound/couldn’t bring herself to kill him; couldn’t kill Lady Crane, even though sparing her was dangerous for Arya; she didn’t let those Frey girls drink poison (she only would have needed to spare one if it was just about delivering a message), was friendly to those Lannister soldiers who were nice to her, and oh yeah, SHE CHOSE JON/WINTERFELL OVER REVENGE/KILLING CERSEI.

Meanwhile, they are almost always curiously quiet about said certain Queen whose line seems to get blurrier all the time…

Though the show itself doesn’t shy away from dropping hints, ie the very sinister version of her “victory theme” in 6x04 after she burns shit down. Not to mention that Varys (the most intelligent person in Westeros) and Tyrion (the cleverest person in Westeros) are beginning to be uncomfortable with some of her choices. And I’m betting it won’t be long until Davos (the wisest person in Westeros) raises an eyebrow at her, too….

I sorta compare it to Arya walking down a set of stairs vs. Dany walking down a ramp. The stairs might have you descend quicker but it can be a hell of a lot harder to stop when you’re on a ramp, especially after you’ve gained momentum. And walking upstairs is typically a lot easier than walking uphill. ;)

4) More than once, Arya has been shown to fight with Sansa or bitch about her and then almost immediately defend her from someone else. The thing with Mycah/the direwolves, for example. Arya was pissed at Sansa but Cersei wanted to punish Sansa by killing Lady and Arya immediately shrieked, “Lady wasn’t there! You leave her alone!”

Or she told Ned she hated Sansa for siding with Joffrey but when Ned said Sansa was going to HAVE to take Joffrey’s side Arya is concerned and asks “How can you let her marry someone like that?”

Aka the classic “I can be mean to my sibling, but YOU CAN’T, ASSHOLE.”

5) “I don’t hate her, not really.”

TL;DR:

1) Littlefinger is just about toast, and one or both Stark girls are going to be behind it. Wolves are known to hunt birds, sometimes. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

2) Lots of characters have been temporarily reverting to their old, lesser selves and they have either bounced back or are clearly getting ready to make a comeback and Arya is no different.

3) Arya certainly might enjoy walking around ankle deep in darkness but she’s not going to drown in it.

4&5) Arya might complain about Sansa, but she loves her. And Sansa loves Arya.

#Arya stark #Sansa stark #game of thrones #looooong rambles #long post

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