#the only soulless demigod we know of is godwyn

[wraith-caller]

The nearest catacombs are the Tombsward Catacombs, with the Impaler's being on the complete opposite side of the peninsula. Hardly "right near", especially when other similar ghosts are placed just at the door of other catacombs or even inside of them. I really don't think this is referring to Messmer, especially as the quote talks about the nearby mausoleum, which houses the body of a dead demigod. Which Messmer is clearly not dead, unless the Shadow land is some sort of afterlife.

frantically scrambling for a screencap of that church with lore regarding marikas Unwanted Child, btw

[miquella-everywhere]

Going back to Godwyn for a bit; I have seen so many people say that Godwyn coming back would have made even less sense than Promised Retcon because with all the evidence he is like dead "dead" and

okay, sure, yeah, fine, whatever 🤷

but yknow what its fucking fiction so anything can happen including reviving the dead dead man 😡

And I can somewhat see the angle of that, but you see, the biggest elephant in the room problem is that:

THE DLC DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY OF MIQUELLAS EFFORTS TO REVIVE HIM

If the DLC truly wished to go this route and acknowledge that Godwyn is dead "dead" then they should have also acknowledged Miquellas struggle and failure at trying to revive Godwyn and how/why it went wrong, because base game Miquella did everything in his goddamn eternal child cursed power to revive Godwyn.

But all we get in the DLC regarding Godwyn is basically a buffed up Medallion, saying that it was awarded to Godwyns Knights for their campaign in the RoS, and the Death Knight armor in which they are waiting for Godwyns corpse to impregnate a random lady so a new "life in death" Age can happen, and like

cool

cool

so very cool 😬

This is so incredibly insulting to both Godwyn, Miquella, Malenia, I don't even know where to start.

But starting with Godwyn, am I seriously the only person who is upset/pissed that we literally get to learn nothing about who Godwyn was personally in the DLC, when, back when we were all waiting for the DLC; mostly everyone was theorizing/hypothesizing about Godwyns role and importance because literally all of Miquellas overarching "plan" in the base game involved Godwyn?????

And now we get nothing??????

Godwyn, in the base game and in the absolute travesty of a DLC, is the most underdeveloped Demigod despite his death being the catalyst for The Shattering. Queen Marika's spirit literally broke from Godwyns death and thus plunged the world into a never ending war. She loved him dearly. And we get absolutely zero acknowledgment of that.

And then god. Miquella and Malenia. Miquella loved Godwyn. He loved him so so much. From Golden Epitaph, forged to commemorate his death and imbued with a humble prayer for his salvation, and the Wandering Mausoleums who house the Soulless Demigods, tied into the Eclipse and the effort put into Godwyns revival, and then finally the statue at the Haligtree of the twins embracing their beloved big brother... Miquella was not the only one who loved Godwyn, as Malenia is the one embracing him fully in the statue. She loved him. She loved him so much. Which is why she too had an emotional stake in ensuring that Miquella's Eclipse came to be and revived Godwyn from his cursed Undeath.

And yet the DLC does not acknowledge Miquella the Unalloyed's or Malenia the Severed's love for their older brother Godwyn the Golden

And instead tosses Godwyn into the garbage and forces Miquella to be a fucking Radahn simp

And for that I will die mad

[ghostofashina]

btw, while making a death build, occurred to me the prince of death flare is very similar to messmer's flames in its patterns: golden and shadow glowing within the flames

and then reading i discovered it is really called "prince of death flames", godwyn produced flames of his own in his death!

and it's different from the common death sorceries with greyish/b&w flames we see: helphen's steeple and death poker, for example, deals with frostbite damage as well. even the spirit swords we find in shadow of erdtree, casting half of the mending rune, is more similar to the necromancy of garris, which makes us think more of ranni (sorceries) rather than godwyn (faith), after all she had her own half of rune as well.

while for the prince of death flare, as we find in the eclipse shotel, we also see the mausoleum knights wielding it like messmer's soldiers. and yes, we know there were other soulless demigods, but godwyn was the first one, whatever is this flames, he is the bearer, it comes from him as far as i can tell.

so well, it's fair to assume the prince of death, aka godwyn, does have his own flames as his brother. and that's not the only pattern they share, considering the animalistic visuals of their curses and all the eyes present in both base serpent and death roots.

[bababonzer]

OK I’ve got to obfuscate some highly contested things about SOTE, specifically involving Miquella’s seemingly bizarre choice of partnership:

Spoilers ahead

So, a lot of people are upset that Miquella chose to revive the soul of Radahn instead of Godwyn. Seems like the obvious choice. Godwyn was the person in the statues in the Haligtree, Miquella sort of ran the Castle Sol thing, even the existence of the golden epitaph sword calls into mind the strength of Miquella’s feelings.

So why Radhan? Let me flip it, why NOT Godwyn?

We know that Godwyn was the victim of the night of black knives. They carved a half of the curse mark of death into his back. At the same time they engraved the other half on Ranni. This leads to Ranni’s body dying but her soul remaining, and Godwyn’s body remaining but his soul dying. Keep this in mind for later.

The attempt of revivification at Castle Sol failed. The spirit at Castle Sol recants, “…The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…”

They tried to usher in the eclipse, but for whatever reason, it did not work.

In SOTE, Miquella absconded with Mogh’s remains so that he could call down Radahns soul.

I believe that Miquella DID choose Godwyn first. He tried at Castle Sol with a different ritual. The attempt at Castle Sol made clear to Miquella that Godwin’s soul was gone. Truly gone. It wasn’t that the ritual was done wrong, it’s that there was no soul left to call upon. Godwyn was the only character to fall to that specific half of the curse mark, in a land where death does not occur normally.

With this version of events posed, it makes sense that Miquella knew he needed to do something drastically different. Maybe it was after that realization that he made a pact with the next strongest demigod. It wasn’t because of a long standing underhanded relationship between the two, it was because his first choice got obliterated in soul and contorted in body.

It could also be, that because Godwin’s body remained, a surrogate could not be used. He had to choose another.

Now, why Radahn specifically? Well…

- His twin is afflicted with the scarlet rot - an affliction that even he in all his wisdom could not heal.

- Mogh and Margot were omen born and little known. Accursed blood ran through their veins. Perhaps they were just not strong enough? Revered enough? It could be that Miquella didn’t know of their godly lineage. There could be a lot of reasons.

- Rykard was a sadist blasphemer that turned into a giant serpent. Not a good companion for the kindly Miquella, who favors compassion and mercy.

- Ranni died lol

- Godwyn because of possibly the reason’s I stated above

Who does that leave if not Radahn?

But why not a mortal? Why not any of the Needle knight crew?

Against someone as powerful as Radahn, what mortal could possibly compare in raw power? None exist. Miquella’s lord had to be the strongest! He’s ushering in a new age after all.

Thank you for reading so far. If you have any thoughts to add, or if I got an aspect of the lore wrong - I’d love to hear from you.

[averagemrfox]

Saying this with the preface that I haven’t beaten the dlc yet and don’t know all of miquella’s dlc dialog and don’t want spoilers in the tags or comments please.

But one common criticism of the dlc I’ve seen is why Radahn? Why not Godwyn? Everything in the base game showed that Miquella and Godwyn had a stronger relationship… but. I think that’s the point? Radahn was Plan B. Thanks to Ranni.

I think Miquella was always going to charm one of his siblings into being his consort but Godwyn was the first and easiest choice. The lore suggests they’re close. And then the Night of Black Knives happened and Godwyn was killed. Only not completely. Just his soul was:

Cursemark of Death: Cursemark carved into the discarded flesh of Ranni the Witch. Also known as the half-wheel wound of the centipede. This cursemark was carved at the moment of Death of the first demigod, and should have taken the shape of a circle. However, two demigods perished at the same time, breaking the cursemark into two half-wheels. Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone

As long as Godwyn remained dead in soul alone Miquella couldn’t enact his plan to make Godwyn his consort:

Dialog from a ghost in Castle Sol: "Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree."

Dialog from a ghost in Castle Sol 2: “...Ohh great sun! Frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!”

Golden Epitaph: A sword made to commemorate the death of Godwyn the Golden, first of the demigods to die. Infused with the humble prayer of a young boy; "O brother, lord brother, please die a true death."

The Castle Sol stuff does imply a lot more of a direct connection to Miquella alone and not the demigods or the Lands Between as a whole, except references to the eclipse can also be found from items drops from the mausoleum knights:

Eclipse Crest Heater Shield: "The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber."

Cause you know. “Our home bathed in rays of gold.” The sun. An eclipse blocks out the light of the sun. The rays of light of the Golden Order - the thing that confined the Rune of Death and makes the demigods immortal. It’s probably why we find a Wandering Mausoleum outside of Castle Sol. Just a further attempt at protecting what was left of Godwyn but his body was already corrupted by Death

So now Miquella’s plan is ruined, the Elden Ring is shattered, all the demigods are now vulnerable to death and making moves to claim their own piece of the shattered Elden Ring. Miquella uses Mohg (Mohgwyn Dynasty) and picks the next best brother to Godwyn, Radahn, who always idolized Godfrey anyway and was a skilled commander. Also possibly the only option left out of all the siblings? Wouldn’t be shocked if the reason Malenia fought him was to weaken him for the purpose of Miquella’s plan. Malenia after all was out of the running for all of this because of her curse, but was still totally devoted to Miquella. Whether by choice or by his influence idk.

Anyway TL:DR since this is an unorganized mess:

Miquella wanted to use Godwyn as his consort, Ranni enacted her plan and Godwyn was killed only in soul not body, Miquella was forced to used Radahn and Mohg as a plan b since Godwyn was unable to achieve a true death

[the-overanalyzer]

regarding godwyn

I don't think it's any kind of "plot hole" that Miquella's plan ultimately had nothing to do with him.

What we get in the base game is this:

Golden Epitaph: A sword made to commemorate the death of Godwyn the Golden, first of the demigods to die. Infused with the humble prayer of a young boy; "O brother, lord brother, please die a true death."

The eclipse church spirit in Castle Sol: "Ohh great sun! Frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!"

And the Castle Sol rooftop spirit: "Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…"

This tells a few things:

Miquella hoped that Godwyn would die rather than remain the giant zombie cancer merman he became. (It's vague, but in context it can only be Miquella speaking, unless there's another "young boy" we don't know about)

The people of Castle Sol were working on Miquella's behalf to use an eclipse to restore Godwyn, either bringing him back to life or, as per Golden Epitaph, letting him die for real.

Radahn is not the "comrade [who] remains soulless". Radahn's soul is right there in his body until we the player come along and put him out of his misery.

There's no indication that Miquella's plans for Godwyn were anything but what they appear to be: a boy who wants to end the bizarre and unnatural undeath inflicted on his brother. Which isn't to say there wasn't (or wouldn't have been) a nefarious twist somewhere along the way—it's Miquella, after all—but his goals were always at least intended to help people. And if you go with the Duskborn ending, you and Fia provide a little of that help yourselves.

[blasphemousclaw]

Hello ! I’ve seen a post mentioning the demigods of the Mausoleum as well as the ones killed by Vyke, and while as the person say that this does have potential for oc writers, I can’t help but wonder who they might be related to. (Like seriously I can’t stop wondering the relation between 9 dead demigods and the demigods we know about as well as the Elden Lords and Marika). So I became so desperate that I finally dare to ask other people their thoughts about it (my family doesn’t even know a little bit of Elden Ring Lore or just forget about it).

Hello! OK this topic has actually stumped me for so long, so I finally got around to looking into the wandering mausoleums and wow is it weird and complicated. 

Lets get the basic facts out of the way… Basically, the wandering mausoleums house the bodies of “the soulless demigods:” 

“The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child.” (Spirit NPC)

“The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber.” (Eclipse Crest Heater Shield)

The mausoleums’ bells are said to ring "in constant mourning for the soulless demigods.” (Mausoleum Surcoat)

The mausoleums (well, most of them... stay tuned) are defended by Mausoleum Knights, undead warriors who “willingly beheaded themselves so that they may serve their masters in death.” (Mausoleum Knight enemy description) The mausoleum knight Lhutel the Headless earned herself the honor of Erdtree burial for this sacrifice. These knights carry shields bearing the symbol of the Eclipse:

“The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay.” (Eclipse Crest Greatshield)

We also know that Castle Sol and Miquella are connected to all of this, because the inhabitants of Castle Sol seem to worship the eclipse… there are two spirit NPCs in the area who say these things:

“Ohh, great sun! Frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!”

“Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... I will never set my eyes upon it now... Your divine Haligtree…”

There is some kind of operation to “give life” back to the soulless demigods of the walking mausoleums centered at Castle Sol. 

So who are these dead guys??? It does seem that they were killed on the Night of the Black Knives… Godwyn the Golden’s murder was said to be “the first recorded Death of a demigod in all history” (via Rogier), so we can assume that these guys were also killed by Destined Death, wielded by the Black Knife assassins. I think they are considered “soulless” because, since they were killed by Destined Death, they died in both body and soul… Ranni set up her ritual splitting the cursemark of death so that she would die only in body and keep her soul, and Godwyn would die only in soul and his body stayed alive, to everyone’s horror… so a killing with no special ritual would just kill both aspects of a person, and prevent them from experiencing the “proper” death of returning to the Erdtree: 

“A proper death means returning to the Erdtree. Have patience. Until the time comes...and the roots call to you.” (Spirit NPC)

So I guess the goal of the eclipse ritual is to retrieve these demigods’ lost souls, including Godwyn’s. 

As for the soulless demigods’ identities, a spirit NPC does explicitly state that a demigod within a mausoleum is Marika’s child. There is indeed plenty of room within the Golden Lineage family tree for there to be a bunch of currently unknown family members, because Godrick is said to be the last of the Golden Lineage and a distant relation of Queen Marika… so that’s potentially a ton of previous generations of demigods that are just not named! These demigods could easily have been killed in order to hurt Marika and the Golden Order in Ranni’s dire plot, with Godwyn being the most devastating loss and the target of her specific ritual. 

I should also mention that there are two unique wandering mausoleums in Liurnia, around the Uhl Palace Ruins, that do not have a bell, are not protected by mausoleum knights, and can only duplicate remembrances of NON-shardbearing bosses. @katyahina pointed this out in this fantastic post, and I wouldn’t have even thought about these mausoleums if I hadn’t read it!! I’m currently unsure if these two soulless demigods had unique identities; however, really interestingly, unlike every other demigod corpse, the corpses in these two bell-less mausoleums are charred black:

(Normal mausoleum)

(Bell-less mausoleum)

So I’m inclined to think that something weird happened TO these two demigods that didn’t happen to anyone else that caused them to behave as less powerful versions, rather than them having unique identities from the other demigods to begin with… but that's just my take. What could have happened to them??? And why are they confined to this one “Mausoleum Compound” area, that’s among the Uhl Palace Ruins, where there are also Ancestor followers??? Literally I thought about this so hard I gave myself a headache. Anyway give katyahina's post a read for some fun ideas about their identities. Whoever they are, I think whatever happened to them means that they’re beyond saving; even the eclipse ritual can’t help them.

Also I could not ever begin to guess what’s going on with the demigods supposedly killed by Vyke in order for him to have gotten great runes and it honestly makes absolutely no sense to me. sorry but if I try to think about this anymore I fear my head will explode

[wetwibuwution]

Thinking about the ghost outside of the church of pilgrimage again. The walking mausoleum cradles the soulless body of a demigod. Marika, he is your unwanted son. With the dlc out we know of an unwanted son of Marika’s, however Messmer is very much alive if incredibly unwell. We also know of actually two soulless corpses but only one of them is a he, and that’s Godwyn. So Godwyn is Marika’s unwanted son? I have a handful of theories that actually all come to meet at this point and it’s actually driving me crazy I need a Godwyn dlc yesterday

[blaiddfailcam]

It's kinda funny how Enia just like. Gives you the wrong info regarding the Demigods lol.

"The demigods are each and all the direct offspring of Queen Marika."

WELL AKSHUALLY, only Godwyn, Morgott, Mohg, Miquella, and Malenia (and Melina) were. That's 6 Demigods.

She goes on to explain Godrick was merely a distant descendant—but as per Godrick's Great Rune, Godfrey himself was also a Demigod, along with the Golden Lineage. As far as we know, Godfrey wasn't Marika's child, just her hubby.

Radagon was regarded a "mere champion" prior to his marriage to Marika. According to Rykard and Radahn's Great Runes, his children with Rennala were not recognized as Demigods until this moment, meaning the status can simply be bestowed upon official induction into Marika's pantheon. (Even if Radagon technically is Marika, this proves that at least according to public perception, the Demigod status has nothing to do with Marika's actual bloodline.)

Presumably, Radagon was also made a Demigod upon marriage to her, just as Godfrey was. At the very least, Marika's words to Radagon illustrate that despite being her "other self," Radagon was not yet a god until they fractured into one. They share a soul, but not her divinity.

So really, less than half of the (named!) Demigods are Marika's "direct offspring." Godfrey, Godrick, Godefroy*, Radagon, Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn were all either gifted the title of Demigod through wedlock/adoption or through distant relation. This before even going into the unnamed, soulless Demigods of the Wandering Mausoleums, lol.

Enia, you should retire... NOW!

*Godefroy isn't directly stated to be a Demigod, but as he's evidently part of the same Golden Lineage as Godrick, lbr, he's a fucking Demigod.

[unnounblr]

There's like 7 Wandering Mausoleums, and the Mausoleum Knights and Soldiers alongside them are the lordsworn servants of the dead and soulless demigods inside those mausoleums.

I feel like we know, fairly definitively, that Godwyn and Ranni aren't the only demigods that died.

So it's said that several Demi-Gods died during the Night of the Black knives, not just Godwyn.

Its also shown that they only Demi-god to have a confirmed leniage is Godwyn (its associated with Godfrey, but Godwyn is clearly the one having kids as Godfrey is gone).

This probably means the night he was killed, he was around or near family, and they all tried to stop the assasins from fleeing... And thus they were killed too.

I believe Godwyn's own children and grandchildren were killed along side him.

[yournextflame]

To add to your theory there’s also the candletree shield: “Thought to represent a surreptitious prophecy of cardinal sin, the lit candle-tree design was forbidden”

Just that description alone would seem to point to fire+erdtree=bad lol but you can find several candelabra like spirit trees that resemble the design on the shield and when you examine them a ghost leads you to something hidden nearby. Which reminded me of this part of Helphen’s Steeple description: “the lampwood which guides the dead of the spirit world”

I'll reply to you and other anon, who asked about connection between spirit world and Miquella/St. Trina in one post.

You brought a great point about wandering ghosts, not only they are spawning near candletrees, but lamps shaped like candletrees can be found in the praying room of Haligtree near the statue of Miquella. Or St. Trina?

However, at first I wanted to say that Candletree Shield might be unrelated to the subjext due to difference in design, until I found out that this shield is located in Sage's Cave, a home of Necromancer Garris. Garris is quite an interesting guy, he is a link between ancient death sorsery of Deathbirds and modern incarnation of death sorcery.

I really didn't want to touch this subject in a mere reply, but let me explain. Whatever ritual Ranni did with Godwyn allowed to rediscover old ghostflame magic of Deathbirds and their outer god that predated existance of the Erdtree (Explosive Ghostflame: in the time when there was no Erdtree, death was burned in ghostflame. Deathbirds were the keepers of that fire)

Ancient Death Rancor: sorcery of the servants of Death. Summons a horde of vengeful spirits that chase down foes. Charging enhances potency. They are cinders of the ancient death hex, raked from the fires of ghostflame by Deathbirds.

Rancorcall: sorcery��of the servants of Death. Summons vengeful spirits that chase down foes. Charging enhances potency. Once though lost, this ancient death hex was rediscovered by the necromancer Garris. 

Background sigils is one the best future of Elden Ring from the perspective of lore hunting because they are allowing us to indicate origin of spells, for example in case of incantations we can easily define an object of worship. It works similar for the sorceries, but Death sorceries is the absolute ??? because their sigil is cursemark of Godwyn, who was killed right before the Shattering. I can see why new Death spells are using it, but how they are connected with the old magic? Wtf Ranni did, where did she learned about the ritual and how it's all connected to the outer god of Deathbirds?

So, before I'm going to lose my mind over death sorceries, let me summarize: Miquella cares about Godwyn, who was killed by Black Knives, but can't die properly, Miquella also has candledtrees near his statue - necromancer fanatic of Deathbirds rediscovered sorcery, which is powered up by Godwyn's cursemark, this dude also has nascent butterfly in his basement (his butterfly appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life), Candletree shield and... Black Knife Assassin and talisman that they used during NoBK (Concealing Veil: Part of one of the concealing veils used by the assassins on the Night of Black Knives) - Miquella also planned to do something with eclipsed sun, the eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods/ The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber, and the stars, as we know, is the source of power for sorceries.

Lord Miquella, forgive me. The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless... (Ghost at the Castle Sol)

(THERE IS TOO MUCH GOING ON WITH NECROMANCER GARRIS)

Okay, I do believe that dreamworld is connected to the spirit world if not the same thing. We find Godwyn's malformed corpses the location named Deathbed Dream.

Worth noting that items and objects related to sleep and some items with connection to death (Grave Violet, Godskins jewelry, water near Tibia Mariner) are violet (the hue of ghostflame, it's believed to be useful in calling forth spirits):

It also interesting how description St. Trina's Arrow

Priests of St. Trina use these arrows to spread their teachings. The sweet oblivion of sleep can become quite the habit

matches description of Juvenile Scholar Cap:

Robe worn by young academy scholars, the juveniles birthed anew by the amber egg of Queen Rennala, the head of Raya Lucaria Academy. Yet their rebirth is not without imperfections, and thus do they repeat the process, eventually becoming utterly dependent upon it. Rebirth is as sleep to them, and with each awakening, memory fades into oblivion.

There is an interesting theory in Chinese community that all Empyrean children of Radagon are connected via sleep sorcery. Miquella is self-explanatory, Ranni asks Tarnished do not disturb mother's rich slumber, goes to nap during her quest, puts into a sleep merchant and his donkey the first time we've met her. There is not a lot of about Malenia, but she is sleeping, while waiting for Miquella. Some people even suggest that Empyrean kids inherited those powers from their father, albeit it's never mentioned.

Ah, and last but not least. Do you know that you can see Godwyn's face on some crabs?

Well, crabs are one of the few enemies in game, who can cast a sleep status on Tarnished. They are usually doing it near Raya Lucaria.

[lichdragon-fortissax]

I've been thinking about the cryptic thing the spirit on weeping peninsula says in front of the church. "Marika's unwanted child." It's implied to refer to Godwyn, but that just makes it more confusing. It would be an interesting implication that literraly the perfect Demigod that Godwyn was, was unwanted to her. Why?? Especially sence all her other children, Marikas' not Radagons', were cursed and damned. Also if it dosen't refer to him to who then, the bodies in Mausoleums? I never got the idea those were her children, if yes then she actualy had a lot of them... Which just brings me more questions really.

Congratulations for landing on a topic that's been haunting me since my very first playthrough of the game! My assumption is that as soon as Godwyn's soul was killed, what became of him- the Prince of Death- was a god that was automatically rejected from the Golden Order for the sin of associating with Destined Death. In that case, then its possible that Marika no longer recognizes Godwyn as her child, because the one that she loved is now dead to her even though the Prince of Death is technically still him, in a way. We know for a fact that Godwyn's death caused Marika great grief, so his body mutating into some twisted god of death that Those Who Live In Death see as their lord would most certainly be an entity that she would reject as her son, even though it is what holds control over the dead of the Lands Between.

And for once, who can blame her? The Godwyn that we encounter is not at all the Godwyn that Marika and Miquella used to love. What happened was a separation of the soul and the body, just like with Ranni, but unlike with Ranni, it changed Godwyn in a way that made him unrecognizable to his family. Ranni modeled her new body after a beloved mentor, so the difference between the new and the old was one wholly embraced, while the form that Godwyn's body took after his soul was killed is something to be shunned and hidden. Godwyn might be soulless, but his body lives on, and Marika cannot see the child that she loved in the amalgamation that his form took on. The bodies in the Mausoleum are likely humanoid only to hide people from the grotesque reality of the Prince of Death, because, well...he's kind of terrible on the eyes, to be frank.

Though the model they use in the mausoleum is Morgott's human body with the head cut off, which also makes you ponder on it a bit. Realistically I think they're just reusing the model for more esoteric purposes (because it's also Miquella inside the egg lmao), but a wild theory that I came up with before I thought more about Godwyn and his fate was that wandering spirits were somehow capable of seeing how Morgott was before he was cursed, and/or was able to sense his state after death, and so mourned for Morgott before he was even killed. Of course, this was dispelled later on when I started to pay more attention to wtf was up with Godwyn, but it is kind of fun to imagine it as being a nod to something that Morgott could never be, the son that Marika wished that she had

[lichdragon-fortissax]

Not sure why this plot point is so unpopular in the fandom. St.Trina is Miquella and he is not trapped in the cocoon in Mohgwyn's palace. Trina is the free soul of Miquella that has been doing whatever he needs with granting peaceful sleep to the afflicted, strongly associated with Godwyn and death. His presence is short lived because he doesn't have a viable body in the physical world as his soul lives in the dreamworld/spiritworld. The current nonresponsive body in the cocoon is as dead as it can be like the "sleeping" soulless demigods. That's why FROM uses the same model and same for Morgot. I don't know why people can't see why Miquella would remain helpless in that body while we know Ranni lived perfectly fine without her actual body and she only needed the doll to maintain consciousness. Mohg's plan failed and he is too much of a lunatic to realize the situation. Some have argued that the body looked bigger so the plan has worked somehow, but we see the same thing happened to Morgot when he died, his Omen curse were gone. That implies the curse is only gone after death.

I just want to discuss this because you seem to be a knowledgeable lore theorist.

Never heard of it, but I'm pretty sure that it's unpopular because Gideon outright states that Miquella is comatose, not dead, and because his ties to Godwyn are separate from his female aspect, St. Trina- the one holy dagger that permakills skeletons is engraved with a prayer from Miquella, not St. Trina, a goddess who is merely an aspect of Miquella, not unlike how Radagon is an aspect of Marika. We don't really have much info on how they work, however, so it's kind of hard to claim for certain that St. Trina is active while Miquella is sleeping. It's possible, because St. Trina is tied to sleep and Empyreans don't seem to really need their physical body to exist, but pretty much all the canon evidence we have currently points to Miquella transforming from his larval boyish state to his adult god form, with some additional unwanted 'help' from Mohg. As for the model of the soulless demigod/uncursed Morgott being used for Miquella, that's likely just Fromsoft reusing assets for convenience's sake. There's really no reason to sculpt an entirely new model when all that you'd see of the character is the arm, so it's not a good indicator for whether or not Miquella's curse has fled after death.

Mohg is def. a lunatic though, there's no denying that

[wraith-caller]

A god is a vessel for the Elden Ring. The Elden ring gives that god the power to rewrite it to suit their vision. She shattered it in grief for Godwyn. People experiencing grief aren't always doing things because they make sense. She is a god, but also a person who came from a past full of suffering at the hands of others. She watched her entire village get carted off and stuffed into jars by the hornsent. She rewrote reality to keep from any more of her family being killed, but even THAT was not enough to save her son. The fallout of the Shattering should make it apparent why Radagon would want to repair it - with even just pieces of it in the hands of the various demigods, they were driven to do terrible things with their new power. We learn in the DLC that the GW hasnt been communicating with TLB, so the Elden Beast is likely acting independently. It's not punishing Marika because she was attempting to slip the bonds of godhood but because she broke the Elden Ring. It's her job to lord over it, and she ruined it, resulting in hell on earth. Just because the Ring itself doesn't confer godhood doesn't mean it isn't immensely important. I don't think there is anything that solidly tells us she no longer wants to be god, but we at least know she wanted to examine the tenets of her Order. I think there are compelling arguments in either direction.

In shedding themselves to ascend, it's clear that this doesn't mean they become an unrecognizable, soulless, blank slate. After all, at the end of his journey, Miquella is still insistent on bringing about his age of compassion. Trina says godhood is a cage and this is why: they will always live with the memory of what they did to get where they are. It's all cyclical, with Miquella repeating Marika's mistakes while swearing he wouldn't, just as Marika likely did when she ascended from the hell the hornsent made of her life.

They sought to make a world that would rid them of the things that caused them suffering. It seems perfectly reasonable that in their single-minded pursuit of this goal that they would forget themselves, do terrible things, and come out the other side covered in blood only to one day wake up and ask 'well fuck what have I done?' Marika very clearly became something quite different from what she was born as - a shaman in a simple village far from anywhere, crafting healing spells rather than decimating entire countries. To say she didn't divest anything would be mistaken, but to also say she's incapable of later questioning the Order she founded also seems like a stretch when the game goes out of its way to tell us that the gods are just people. Goldmask reveals that the issue with the gods is that they're still human underneath all the pomp and grandeur. They're as fallible as the rest of us.

Actually, I'm still bothered by this, now, with regard to Marika and the Shattering.

The main quest in the base game now shouldn't have happened at all, if you try to incorporate the DLC information and that this is supposed to be an answer related to Marika.

Because there are four possibilities now about the nature of the Elden Ring:

The Elden Ring makes you a god.

The Elden Ring is being used as a leash by the Greater Will/Elden Beast.

It both grants you godhood and makes you beholden to the Greater Will/Elden Beast.

The Elden Ring isn't actually either of those things. It is just a powerful magic ring and its pieces are pieces of its power.

The Elden Ring does have power- the Great Runes all have magical effects. You can muck with it and add and subtract runes from it to alter the state of the world itself and everyone in it. It's a plot point that Marika removed the Rune of Death and how this affected the world and how she got her Golden Order.

If it's a leash, it makes no sense for it to do that, to give Marika more power when you want to keep her under your control.

On top of that, after the Elden Beast is slain and the connection to the Greater Will severed, it still has power enough to grant Ranni's Age of Stars and the various Mending Rune endings. Meaning it doesn't really work as a 'leash.'

But if godhood is granted by going through the Divine Gate and the ritual involving a lord and vessel and god, Marika shattering the Elden Ring is pointless. It isn't where her divinity comes from. It doesn't stop her from being a god. Her divinity is now intrinsic to herself after she did the ritual. Radagon attempting to repair it is nonsense, too, as he would know their divinity doesn't come from a magic ring. It would only work if it's a leash/connection to the Greater Will, then.

And if Miquella is basically supposed to be her repeated, then their process makes no sense in relation to the Shattering. The Story Trailer also makes this clear that Marika did this process.

But Miquella's stuff would mean that Marika shouldn't be in conflict about her own divinity enough to want to stop being a god. It undercuts the theme the game tries to set up with Miquella, that becoming a god involves stripping away all your humanity and you're utterly unrecognizable. But Marika was in conflict about her divinity and humanity with her situation with Radagon. It's a pretty important plot point in the base game's story.

If it's both, both problems remain, though. If the Elden Ring is both power and leash, then it still doesn't change that the Divine Gate stuff happened and Marika is a divinity still, so shattering the Elden Ring doesn't actually change her being a god. And giving someone power if they're supposed to be leashed is also stupid.

But if it's none of that, if the Elden Ring is just a magic ring of great power, then it raises its own questions. Why would Marika having it matter at all? Why bother shattering it, if that's not going to stop you from being a god? Why would the Greater Will's vassal punish Marika for shattering it and the Order's "leal hound" try to repair it? Radagon and the Elden Beast and Marika all would know this is utterly irrelevant.

[unnounblr]

I dunno if I agree and think Marika was responsible for their deaths, although she could have been, and I wouldn't be surprised, but. Piggybacking off this post, is the fact that the game has 7 Wandering Mausoleums, 5 of which have bells on them, where we can duplicate the Remembrances (and only the 5 with bells can duplicate the remembrances of the shardbearers, Godrick, Morgott, Malenia, Rykard, etc.) and the Mausoleum Soldiers are explicitly the former servants of demigods that are now dead and soulless.

Like, there's some speculation that Melina was the Gloam Eyed Queen, an Empyrean who used Destined Death before Maliketh beat her and took it from her. And she's probably one of Marika's kids as well, and is now burned and bodiless.

But, like, yeah, if all the demigods are the children of Marika, there's like, 5 or 7 of them that died before the game even started. Not including Godwyn, who has his own separate burial place in the Erdtree roots.

I think it's implied they all died during the Night of Black Knives, alongside Godwyn, and Godwyn gets the special burial because he's the favorite, but. Like, I do agree with the part of the original post that the demigods we know in Elden Ring are just the ones that survived, and that doesn't get talked about enough.

Fucked-up thing about the Elden Ring cast

The known demigods are just the ones that Marika decided not to kill. She implicitly fed at least one of her kids to her dog... but she kept Morgott, Mohg, the one made out of diseases, and the one made out of snakes. She kept Rykard. So who did she even kill? How was she making these decisions?

[caivo]

I see where you're coming from, but for me that isn't certain enough evidence to conclude that it was specifically miquella who created the mausoleums, just that he's using the eclipse symbol and its power in this ritual, some form of protection going by the eclipse greatshield description

"The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay."

I'm also pretty sure that the mausoleums contain the other victims of the night of black knives, they just weren't important enough to get an erdtree burial. We know the royal family was larger than mentioned in game, Godwyn was just the first to die

I agree that Miquella was working at Sol to put Godwyn to rest/revive him, but I don't think he was in command because of the following:

You find black dumpling and caged albinaurics there, which pretty definitively goes against what he stands for

It's manned by banished knights and exile soldiers, none of which are found in places he controls like Elphael or Ordina

An interesting thing though.. I was looking into O'Neil a while back and noticed a pattern with the exile soldiers and banished knights (this got a little long whoops)

They're only found at: Castle Sol, Stormveil, Farum Azula, the Caelid cathedral of dragon communion, and Fringefolk heroes grave - all places with a strong association with Godwyn, his surviving heir Godrick, or dragons...

The knights use dragonfire incantations and drop the communion seal, arguably this goes against Godwyn making peace with the dragons, but they were once at war and the corpses at the church/cathedral happen to be the ancient dragon type

Specifically, the fact that knights are present in Farum, surrounded by dragons and knowing communion incantations and yet left alone leads me to think they're currently on peaceful terms with the dragons, despite having partaken in communion in the past

Unfortunately their item descriptions mostly just emphasise their banished status, but Oleg's spirit ashes set the precedent that they would at least sometimes fight under another:

"One of the two knights known as the Wings of the Storm. After his banishment, he attracted the notice of the Grace-Given Lord and later, having slain a hundred traitors as the Lord's hand, Oleg earned the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial."

Really there's nothing directly stating they were once Godwyn's men or even fought with him - they're described as "an army of no nation" and may just have been the most convenient mobs to populte these areas with, but I think there's enough of an association that the potential's there, and if so it would make sense that they'd work with Miquella for this ritual

@caivo Okay so!

A medium-sized metal shield. Easier to handle than a kite shield. The sun in eclipse is said to be the symbol of the Wandering Mausoleum where the soulless demigods slumber.

With the Eclipse Heater Shield it tells us that all of the Wandering Mausoleums are connected to the Eclipse and by extension Castle Sol. And with the dialogue coming from the spirit at the top of the castle, and the fact that you get the other half of the Haligtree medallion here, we can easily come to the conclusion that Miquella is in charge of Castle Sol and is the mastermind behind the Wandering Mausoleums.

We know that Miquella wants to either revive or grant Godwyn a true death, and with Godwyn dead in soul and the spirit stating that Miquella's comrade "remains soulless" we can figure out that the Mausoleums are somehow instrumental in Godwyns revival.

The exact specifics behind this revival is vague as hell and also begs the question of who are the other Soulless Demigods that these Mausoleum's are housing, and if they are waiting to be revived or if they have a more complicated purpose in reviving Godwyn.

But now moving on to the Headless Knights who protect the Mausoleums, their armor set stats that they are headless/half-dead because of a self inflicted curse which can be traced back to the Deathbirds:

The wing-shaped ornament on its back evoke the Deathbird. A self-inflicted curse that ties the spirits of these loyal knights to the land, having willingly beheaded themselves so that they may serve their masters in death

So then these guys.

We dont know much about the Deathbirds other than the fact that they wield Ghostflame, are apparent ancient death deities(?) and had dominion over death before the Erdtree took over, that their mother is known as the Twinbird, with said Twinbird being the envoy of an unnamed Outer God.

So then all of these vague hints bring into question what Miquella's exact dealings and relationship with the Deathbirds, Twinbird, and more interestingly, their unnamed Outer God is, and how do they all factor into reviving Godwyn? 🤔