#tennovative

[deuswf]

ꜱᴄᴀʟᴇꜱ ᴏꜰ ᴊᴜᴅɢᴍᴇɴᴛ | ᴀɴᴜʙɪꜱ ɪɴᴀʀᴏꜱ

⚠️ ᴛʜɪꜱ ꜱʜᴏᴏᴛ ɪꜱ ʜᴇᴀᴠɪʟʏ ɪɴꜱᴘɪʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɢʏᴘᴛɪᴀɴ ᴅᴇɪᴛʏ; ᴀɴᴜʙɪꜱ!

[mjikthize]

Still a work in progress. Koumei's dice and a larger Dice cup/box to keep them in. Will upload the stl files to Cults3d when all is completed.

[mary-maud]

When writers were not vague, they tended to contradict each other, disputing even the basic nature of love. Was it an emotion, an attitude, a sentiment, a personality type, a neurotic manifestation, a way of looking at the world, a means of emotional manipulation, a sublime passion, a peak experience, a religion, a desire, a mental state, a perversion of thought, a prepossession, a biological urge, a type of mystical experience, a weakness of the will, an obsession, an aesthetic reaction, a sacred state, a universal thirst, a glimpse of heaven?

Dorothy Tennov, Love and Limerence

[stem-sloop]

"It's a basic policy. If anyone interests me more than casually, I stop it right there by avoiding him. I stay away from any place I think he might be. I've been playing it that way for a few years now, and so far it's worked. I had what you call 'limerence' once, and for me once was quite enough. I never want to go through that again."

i might just adopt this strategy foreal

[lillyviarabbit]

It sucks that the best way to help someone, sometimes, is to leave them. I think trying to stay friends and continue being connected mightve hurt them more than anything

[hyperfixationstation128]

I'm sure this has been said before, but I'm of the opinion that Gale didn't love Mystra. Not really, anyway.

"But, Hyper!" You cry, "He tells the player flat out that he was in love with her! What are you talking about?"

Well, allow me to shed a little light on what it is I mean.

It's pretty much unanimously agreed within the fandom that Gale is Autistic, which I find awesome. He's such a great source of representation for those of us who've been through similar experiences and relate to his personality. Those of us with Autism know the frustration of being portrayed as "the weird kid", "the manic pixie dream girl" or even as non-verbal people with a propensity towards violence with our meltdowns. Fun fact: not every person with Autism has "violent meltdowns", some of us go through what's called a shutdown, where we become non-verbal, secluded and kinda "stop working".

"Okay, okay, that's cool and all, but what do you mean by Gale didn't love Mystra?"

I applaud your enthusiasm and am going to explain now. As someone with Autism, someone who's been researching the topic for years, and someone with immediate family members who are on vastly different sides of the spectrum, I can say with about 95% confidence that Gale did not love Mystra... not for real, anyway. He had what is called "Limerence".

Well, why don't we turn to the internet to look up the definition of the word. "Limerence is a psychological state characterized by an intense, all-consuming romantic infatuation. It is an involuntary cognitive and emotional state in which an individual feels an overwhelming desire for another person, known as the “limerent object.” This state was first defined by psychologist Dorothy Tennov in the 1970s."

Now, the act of limerence is completely involuntary and could happen to anyone, neurodivergent or neurotypical! However, based on anecdotal evidence, it appears to affect women with Autism more than anyone else. When you experience limerence with someone, they become everything to you. You are completely obsessed with them, they can do no wrong in your eyes, they are everything to you.

Sound familiar? The way Gale describes how he viewed Mystra is unmistakably Limerence, at least in my opinion. And if you aren't convinced, allow me to be vulnerable for a minute and share a personal story on my experience with Limerence.

I was about 12 or 13 when I first met my friend, let's call her Tina. Now, Tina was that one girl in school who loved anime, played the violin, and made incredible art. From the first moment I met her, I was smitten. And this went far beyond a normal teenage crush. I was obsessed with her, her opinion, her tastes, her likes and dislikes. I was so in love (I thought) that once stole my late grandmother's wedding ring and gifted it to her. I devoted every breath in my body to her, every fiber of my being. We were friends for years and even dated for a while. In my mind, we were meant to be. We got along great, she was funny, silly, and so incredibly talented. What I didn't know - or maybe didn't want to believe - was she didn't feel the same way.

"But, Hyper! Isn't that just unrequited love?" No, dear reader... 'tis not. Limerence is not love, no matter how much you may want it to be; no matter how deep your feelings feel like they are. Limerence is an unhealthy obsession and there is typically very little one can do to sway oneself from their "object of desire". In the mind of the person with Limerence, there's nothing else in the world except the person they're obsessing over.

Now, there are three stages to Limerence: Infatuation, crystallization, and deterioration, which all seem pretty self-explanatory, but I'll explain further for those of you who don't know.

Infatuation: The first time you notice the other person's positive qualities. Their eyes, their smile, their abilities/talents.

Crystallization: The "obsessive" part of the act. Where you feel a heightened sense of anxiety, walking on eggshells to avoid any "turn-offs" around the other person. You may find yourself thinking about them to the point where it's affecting your normal, daily life.

Deterioration: When the intensity of your feelings begin to wane, and you no longer find yourself attracted to or wanting the attention of the person you were pursuing. In my experience, this is the worst part of Limerence as it usually blew up in my face.

Now, you may be thinking something along the lines of "Okay, but how does this relate to Gale?" or "Are you trying to imply that Gale was abusive towards Mystra? That's ridiculous and you suck!!!" and you're right. I do suck. But I'm not implying that Gale was abusive towards Mystra. Given the fact that she's a literal goddess, it's impossible for that to have happened. What I'm implying is that how Gale viewed Mystra for the time that he was with her was not genuine, true love like how he has with Tav.

This post got way longer than I originally anticipated and I'd love to write a full-length essay on this someday, but I feel I've assaulted y'all's brains with enough jargon for now. If you guy wanna hear more of my thoughts on this particular subject, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Please feel free to keep the discussion going in the comments or your own post! I adore Gale and discussing things like these regarding his character and personality is my bread and damn butter.

[shyflowerhologram]

recently I got across a term 'limerence', which I found very fitting for Naruto's relationship with Sasuke. Limerence is a deep obsession, longing for another person. It's different from love or lust, not necessarily sexual or romantic. It's one sided, those feelings usually aren't reciprocated. I'll quote the passage, which especially reminded me of Naruto: "limerents are objectifying the person they are obsessed with. They project their own emotional needs onto this other person, idealise them, minimise their flaws, and generally treat them as a sort of impossibly desirable object of infatuation. The limerent object becomes (in the brain of the limerent) a source of hyper-reward, and the limerent seeks that reward as avidly as possible." To me it feels like a best explanation of Naruto's obsession with Sasuke. Little Naruto saw Sasuke as a loner like him, but at the same time Sasuke was popular, always praised by other kids and teachers. I think that was what marked Sasuke as the object of limerence, Naruto even admitted: "You were my goal." Sasuke's needs, desires had always been downplayed since then. Sasuke became a grand prize, someone to obtain. There are several signs of limerence which ring a bell: limerents have frequent intrusive thoughts about the limerent object (do I need to list? throughout the manga it's always Sasuke that, Sasuke this for Naruto); they have an acute need for reciprocation of equally strong feeling (this one is also obvious, Naruto always wanted to be as important for Sasuke as Sasuke was for him); exaggerated dependency of mood on limerence object's actions (insert happy happy Naruto when Sasuke joined war at his side vs his intense hysteria whenever Sasuke took a step further away from him and Konoha, it wasn't about power play and we know it); fleeting relief from unrequited feeling through vivid fantasy about reciprocation by the limerence object (aka the big dream where Sasuke came back to village and all lived happily together); intensification of feelings by adversity (more Sasuke tried to get away, more intensely Naruto obsessed); an aching sensation in “the heart” when uncertainty is strong (the panic attack when everyone declared Sasuke as persona non grata); general intensity of feeling that leaves other concerns in the background (literally every concern, was it on Naruto's side or Sasuke's side wasn't important enough for Naruto); a desire for exclusivity in this special connection (as Naruto had expressed it, he was only person who had an understanding with Sasuke and nobody else was allowed to face him). Limerence can last many years, even while limerent person in a relationship with someone else (now idc about boruto, but the fact that Naruto got married to someone else, doesn't mean he's out of his limerence). "...to outside observers, limerence seems pathological... it seems inconceivable that a sane person could attach so much importance to another individual." Naruto had always been questioned about why was Sasuke so important for him, his obsession had always seemed weird for onlookers.

if anyone's interested, check out Love and Limerence by Dorothy Tennov and Living with Limerence by Dr L.

[tumbler-polls]

Limerence is a mental state of profound romantic infatuation, first defined in the 1970s by the psychologist Dorothy Tennov. It is characterised by an initial period of elation and intense emotional arousal that can progress to an involuntary, obsessive craving for another person. The limerent individual may struggle to think about anything else but their “crush” and neglect their social life, work, and other responsibilities as a result.

[our-arospec-experience]

The Split Attraction Model (SAM)

*keep in mind, not everyone uses or accepts this model, and wherever you stand with this model, you are valid. This is purely informational, not a guideline.

The Split Attraction Model (SAM) differentiates attraction into different forms.

The SAM allows individuals to describe their orientations separately, for example, aromantic and pansexual.

some individuals may also include a tertiary attraction in their identities.

Not all a-spec individuals use the SAM, most notably, non-SAM aros.

Some individuals prefer more precise terms for differentiation such as "romantic orientation", "attraction types", etc.

Not every individual who experiences different types of attraction necessarily have a distinct romantic orientation, and not every individual who has a romantic orientation necessarily experiences multiple types of attraction.

History:

the idea was first recorded in 1879 by Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, who published several books on non-heterosexual attraction

it's next use was in 1979 by psychologist Dorothy Tennov in 'Love and Limerence: The Experience of Being in Love'

became common in a-spec circles by 2009

The term was origionally developed from aphobes and exclusionists who insisted the a-spec community of forcing everyone to split their orientation into multiple parts.

The term was adopted by a-spec communities in order to talk about the issue.

SAM flag:

[deuswf]

ꜱᴜɴ-ᴋɪꜱꜱᴇᴅ | ɪᴠᴀʀᴀ

[mjikthize]

Ak Magnus Prop from Warframe. Find me at TennoCon for a closer look and help me "age" this prop for a naturally handled look.

[narutouzumakiarchive]

Re-reading Tennov's book on Limerence. There's a lot of misinformation associated with the term stemming from pop psychology websites regurgitating nonsense stated by Albert Wakin who literally made up stuff about the term that was NOT stated by Dorothy (the original creator of the term) herself.

But anyway, most academic researchers who scientifically study love recognize that limerence is basically a type of love that's practically synonymous with passionate love, romantic love, and infatuation..... as distinct from companionate love (also known as attachment, although attachment theory is controversial). Ironically though, Dorothy Tennov tried to draw a distinction between romantic love and limerence but her book was originally published before more scientific studies studies were published.

But that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to point out that I love Cathy and Heathcliff relationship being highlighted as an example of romantic love.

I've noticed there's a divide in how their relationship is recognized externally. "It's not real love." "It's just obsession." "It's not romantic love, it's toxic." And I suppose that way of thinking isn't necessarily wrong BUT that's more of a philosophical qualm that's distinct from how love as a drive is recognized in a biological sense. Here is Helen Fisher's original landmark conception of the different behvioral/cognitive/emotional components of romantic love.

It's a bit outdated (ie. Helen Fisher herself recognized that lust was a distinct brain system from romantic love but includes it in the list of psychophysical properties associated with attraction; newer research has shown that obsessional aspects can be separated from passionate love..) and I prefer the Passionate Love Scale as a measurement of infatuation (although additional research has shown that it also includes properties more tied to companionate love) but Cathy and Heathcliff check the boxes anyway.

And the question of toxicity is less straightforward. It comes down to your personal beliefs about whether love is a moral phenomenon. I believe this argument has especially taken off with the increased popularity of bell hooks "All About Love" in which she argued that love was a verb and it couldn't coincide with abuse. But these arguments have existed long before. I'm of the opinion that love isn't necessarily moral. I like this article on the morality of love and I've shared the snippet that funny enough briefly mentions Heathcliff as an example of a love object that doesn't have moral virtue (though I disagree with this framing). The rest of the article is really elucidating though.

A lot of our social conception of love DOES tie it to morality. A moral love is associated with depth as opposed to the "superficiality" that people link with amorality and this also affects perceptions of Cathy and Heathcliff's love as infatuation as opposed to genuine love (see example comment below of a post, also unrelated but i didn't realize Nelly's status an an unreliable narrator was so disputed bc I thought it was obvious???) despite the academic consensus that romantic love and infatuation are one in the same. Social psychologist Elaine Hatfield actually addresses this phenomenon in her book A New Look at Love.

It's all very fascinating and I find the different opinions on Cathy and Heathcliff exemplify the thesis of this post about shipping, and people's opinions on relationships in general.

(It does seem like it would be obvious that our opinions on fiction would be tied to our values and beliefs but analyzing romantic relationships is sort of seen as trivial and reductive in fandom)

[transgenderer]

Limerence is a state of mind which results from romantic feelings for another person, and typically includes intrusive, melancholic thoughts, or tragic concerns for the object of one's affection as well as a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and to have one's feelings reciprocated.

Psychologist Dorothy Tennov coined the term "limerence" as an alteration of the word "amorance" with no other etymology[1] to describe a concept that had grown out of her work in the mid-1960s, when she interviewed over 500 people on the topic of love.[2] In her book Love and Limerence, she writes that "to be in a state of limerence is to feel what is usually termed 'being in love.'"[3] She coined the term to distinguish between this and other less-overwhelming emotions[4] and to avoid implying that people who do not experience it cannot experience love.[5]

Nicky Hayes describes limerence as "a kind of infatuated, all-absorbing passion". Tennov equated it to the type of love Dante felt towards Beatrice—an individual he met twice in his life and who served as inspiration for La Vita Nuova and the Divine Comedy. It is this unfulfilled, intense longing for the other person which defines limerence, where the individual becomes "more or less obsessed by that person and spends much of their time fantasising about them". 

[stem-sloop]

You wonder or imagine what LO would think of the book in your hand, the scene you are witnessing, the fortune or misfortune that is befalling you. You find yourself visualizing how you will tell about it, how LO will respond, what will be said between you, and what actions will-or might-take place in relation to it. As you engage in the ordinary tasks that constitute your daily activities, you invent intricate scenarios for possibly upcoming events. Endlessly, you plan the next encounter going over every detail of exactly what you will do in order to improve your image in LO's eyes. You imagine LO's reaction and your further responses.

[lunarmote]

Thoughts on Ikki from Amnesia: Memories (1.5k WORDS)

In this post: spoilers, gifs (wait for them to load)

Ikki is my favorite character from Amnesia: Memories. He gets a lot of hate for being spineless and subjecting the main character to bullshit because of it. I think his outward flirtatiousness doesn’t help, as it suggests he is a person who knows his way around people and would have no problems telling them off for bad behavior… and therefore, any inaction on his part must be because… he’s not a good person, right?

At the crux of it, Ikki’s problems have to do with his belief in an external locus of control and his inability to acknowledge his own freedom. This can be seen in the very nature of his wish, which has to do with controlling other people.

I find Ikki the most relatable character in the game, and here’s my chance to defend that opinion!

Magical eyes: who is actually the victim?

We are told that Ikki has “magical eyes” that are able to seduce any girl who looks at him. This may seem ridiculous, but let’s examine the full implications of this within the Amnesia universe:

We know

Ikki made the wish when he was little

it’s made every woman he sees infatuated with him.

My interpretation is that the eyes plant in them a fully-developed limerence. Limerence is an extremely painful, obsession with someone which differs from a crush due to its intense nature (some authors consider it a form of OCD). Dorothy Tennov, a seminal author on limerence, has described it as “an uncontrollable, biologically determined, inherently irrational, instinct-like reaction” (Love and Limerence 1979)

From the perspective of the women, interacting with him is deeply irresistible.

Limerence or not doesn’t excuse randomly grabbing onto his shoulder, harassing his partner and straight up murder. But overwhelming feelings are not just feelings — they influence motivation.

The point is, while limerence is not a physical force (in the same way I as a weak 120lb woman cannot bench press 200lbs), it is a persistent mental force. It is a series of assaults to one’s healthy sense of will. Imagine trying to take a test with a pounding headache. It is not that you are unable to take moment-to-moment action (e.g. grip the pencil) but that making rational choices is hard, because of the pain constantly pulling back your attention. Someone under its grip may end up doing uncharacteristic things because the pain of fighting it off is too much. In desiring release from this intense surge of chemicals, one seeks in any way to “bridge” the gap between them and their person of fixation.

Ikki’s eyes, by whatever in-universe logic, produce in random women sensations so strong that they find it physically painful to be apart from Ikki. In spite of how despicable the fan girls are, they are forced to have extremely painful experiences they could never consent to.

You may think the MC was able to break out of the spell, and therefore the other girls just weren’t trying hard enough. Yes. But considering the MC was the only one who was ever capable of breaking the spell, it does not suggest that the act is likely. Personally, I think this can be explained by MC’s plot armor, though I get that it's important symbolically.

Low self-esteem and learned helplessness

There’s always a karmic lesson involved when a character makes some kind of wish that controls other people. Not even in the sense that what they did was bad so they must be punished, but that what they wished for wasn’t what they really wanted, and ends up bringing them further from happiness because of it.

Ikki’s life attitude can be reflected in his wish (1) first in its nature concerning the affection of other people, and (2) in its format, which alters the state of the world rather than Ikki himself.

Ikki’s deepest wish is to be liked and this can be seen in his route. In any encounter, he defaults to making himself as gentlemanly and inoffensive as possible. He’s locked in a fawn response. He makes promises he can’t keep if only because he feels obliged to preserve others’ happiness. When Shin gets mad at him for rejecting Mine too harshly (not really much he could’ve done as we see many girls won’t take “no” for an answer) he apologizes for causing a disturbance. Certainly he feels guilt for being both the direct and indirect source of their unhappiness.

Yes, it is a selfish desire to not want to speak out and risk other people’s displeasure. But I can understand. If your entire life has revolved around being liked by others, the thought of losing that isn’t just a blow to your happiness but your total sense of self. In other words, who even is Ikki underneath this persona? How can he begin to construct a sense of self that is not rooted in others’ superficial admiration when he never had a chance to learn?

Next, going back to the wish. If Ikki wanted to be popular, he could have wished for a lovely voice or some other talent, which would have offered some buffer space for others’ opinions of him to form. But he wishes for girls to like him, unqualified. He doesn’t wish to change; he wishes for the world around him to change.

He desires an instantaneous opinion of approval that is never grounded on anything “deep,” — because real appreciation takes time to form!

How can you know someone is kind? Through observing their behaviors over a period of time and seeing that they are consistent. But even then you could be wrong, should you discover an ulterior motive behind them (e.g. doing things for social clout).

Ikki didn’t seem to understand how real relationships work — he focused on the outcome, rather than the progression — the series of “mundane” exchanges that really teach you about a person.

Forcing other people’s will has only strengthened his own fatalism; even after a supernatural intervention, he hasn’t become happy. He’s stuck because he doesn’t know what else he could even wish for, because according to him the world around him has to change rather than himself. This world view makes it very hard for him to act in a way that is “out of character,” even when we the player are begging him to.

I cringed so hard when I saw this — because he is approaching his relationship with the MC with the same mindset. (Ikki talking about his eyes)

Making excuses for others

Lastly, we see that Ikki internalizes his feelings of loneliness and guilt, only revealing them to MC when he’s drunk, and I believe he blames himself disproportionately for the pain of other people.

At Ikki’s apartment, he speaks of the guilt he faces every time at breaking a girl’s heart, and says it is enough to drown him. The language he uses is reflective of someone in a deep depression.

Again this fatalism that he’s destined to hurt others and maybe there’s no point to anything because he’ll end up alone anyway.

This is interesting because. One way of looking at it is yes, since the limerences were planted as a direct result of his wish, he is ultimately responsible for all of their suffering.

But more optimistically, there is still a gap between intense feeling and action, and the self-blame plays very neatly into his pattern of avoiding freedom of responsibility. To downplay the actions of the fangirls as either “they felt too intensely, they couldn’t help it!” or “they didn’t have bad intentions-”

… is yet another excuse to not have to think about freedom and responsibility.

Because to see the fangirls as people and recognize their choice to refrain from harmful behaviors shows that if even they can change then maybe Ikki can too.

But he wants to feel validation for all the suffering he’s been through, so it would be all the more tragic to imagine this a part of destiny that he can’t change, no one can change.

Oh, Ikki.

What makes me empathize with a character is not whether they make the “right” decisions, but whether given their past and the unique circumstances they are in, it is understandable they ended up the way they did.

There’s plenty to be criticized about Ikki’s actions — but I do not think he is a bad person. I think he is idealistic and neurotic and has been punished unjustly for a shortsighted mistake. Because of this I was very happy to see him finally stand up for himself and MC, and it gives a sense of “well-earned” to their happy ending. (I also warned up a bit to his aesthetic as well as voice acting - which was fantastically done!)

[echofromtheabyss]

Placeholder: the construction of postwar thru 1990s heterosexuality and its intersection with a unique 20th century monogamous amatonormativity norm i call "erosexuality" or "erotoromantic"

Modern and pre-Postwar heteronormativity are... not this

Some reference to Dorothy Tennov/limerence and how limerence was seen as actually the beginning stage of love, and how that reflects us marrying for capstone and not cornerstone now and also marrying much deeper into a relationship