#still spoilery enough that i actually need a personalized stand in tag

[prophecyofgray]

putting this beneath the cut because it's a lot of words + spoilery, but um. here are some gomens2 thoughts:

okay so i've not seen any theories/speculation about the very real possibility that a.z. fell is going to a.z. fall (pun very much intended if u couldnt tell) next season and i think it's crazy that no one else is saying this. maybe people Are saying it and i jsut havent looked deep enough in the tags idk but like guys. if the end of s2 solidified anything it's that aziraphale still has faith that heaven is ultimately supposed to be Good and that he can help make it Good. but in reality, heaven only cares about following The Plan and it isn't (just) the individual people up there who are at fault, it's the whole system that's fucked. and if crowley's love confession couldnt get aziraphale to consider this alternative, then his beliefs need to be challenged in a more personal and concrete way, and i think this is going to happen in a Lot of ways in the third season but ultimately culminate in aziraphale falling. i even think that the whole "i'm a fallen angel" scene re: lying to heaven about job sets up a really cool parallel for the future where he actually becomes a fallen angel, and is then forced to reckon with heaven's issues as an institution + come to terms with the fact that he was never the "bad" one for going against them. aziraphale falling and being okay with it is really the only scenario in which i can see his character arc being complete, and frankly, the only thing that can make him redeemable within his relationship with crowley. crowley already sees heaven and hell for what they are, which allows him to see--or at least, imagine--himself and aziraphale as equals. aziraphale doesn't see heaven and hell this way yet, and therefore in his mind, whether he wants to or not, he'll always be Above crowley in some capacity until he can get over his warped perception of Good and Bad. he doesnt want crowley to change, per se, but he doesn't think that he and crowley can be together in the way that they currently stand. when he says "come with me, we can be together" he's really saying "come with me so we can be together" because in his mind, crowley being on the same level as him is the only way they can be together. but crowley doesnt need to be on aziraphale's level. aziraphale needs to be on crowley's. because when crowley said "i think i understand [what you're offering] a whole lot better than you do" he was dead on the money

tldr: aziraphale needs to fall in order to truly see himself and crowley as equals & to learn to see his own goodness outside of heaven's expectations

[sovinly]

((Look, if Lup’s in the Umbrastaff, then I am going to give her every opportunity to engage with the narrative that I possibly can. Which means, in this case, Istus confirming that this is Lup’s narrative too, dammit.))

Lup’s grown so used to intangibility, she’s not sure what to make of the weight of a room around her.

She can’t help herself: She wiggles her fingers, shifts her weight on her feet, twitches her head to send her hair shifting. Delight is a familiar well in her chest, but the stretch of a grin across her face is less so – not the bare gape of her still skeleton, but a proper smile, less lazy than the one that often stretches across her brother’s face.

Lup is so caught up in physicality that she doesn’t realize that her umbrella, her brother, and her friends aren’t there at the moment. But given that she’s taking in the sight of a radiant woman with her hands full of needles and yarn, spilling like galaxies across her lap, Lup isn’t too panicked. If they’re in Istus’ temple, this must be Istus – Q.E.D.

It’s honestly more of a shock to be facing the goddess herself, not just peeking over the shoulders of the currently alive.

“Well,” Istus says, a smile blooming over her face, “you’re just in time.”

“First time that’s happened in a while,” Lup says dryly. The richness of the color and fabric Istus works with and is surrounded by sparks a thought, and Lup runs her hands over her thighs and glances down. Her red robes hang comfortably around her, soft and worn and familiar. She drags her attention back, so unused to anyone listening to her, talking to her, interacting with her. “Are you talking to the rest of them too?”

“What’s the point of being a goddess if I can’t talk to all of you at once?” Istus asks, still smiling. “They’re very unique – in all the parallel worlds, of all the variations of people doing so many things, they’re the only three of them doing exactly what the three of them are doing. And you’re the only you who’s doing exactly what you’re doing.”

Humming quietly, Lup considers that. “What I’m doing is mostly haunting an umbrella and setting shit on fire to remind my brother I exist.”

Istus’ eyebrows curve up, as pale and shimmering as her hair. “No, I mean! Your whole life, pretty much, you’ve been preventing things that go against the designs of fate from happening, stopping terrible powers from being misused! Like I’m telling them, that’s my whole jam! And you –”

Her look goes soft, not quite maternal but very like Lup’s aunt, all those eons ago, and Lup’s dead heart stutters in her chest.

“Lup, you’ve had so much taken from you,” she continues, even as her fingers keep twisting the yarn around her needles. “You’ve given so much to do my work, without even knowing you’ve been doing it! And you’ve lost so much because of it, but you’re still doing it. It’s amazing. And one of these days, things are going to come to a head, so I want to ask you to make it official. I want you to become my emissary in this world, too, in exchange for my blessing.”

Lup snorts. “Yeah, uh, if you haven’t noticed, I’m a lich. Pretty sure that’s not fate-approved.”

Belatedly, she claps her hands over her mouth. Muffled, she says, “Oh shit.”

Istus laughs, bright and warm, and it sinks into Lup’s bones the way that the laughter of her loved ones always has. “I mean, that’s what I’m saying! You’re not using it to change fate or, or, or hoard power. You’re using it to help your friends, your family, keep this world from going sideways. That’s all I’m asking you to keep doing – keep fighting the Hunger, keep preventing it from reshaping creation in its image instead of fate’s. You’re as important to the fate of life as your living friends.”

Hell, it’s not like Lup was ever going to do anything different.

“Yeah, okay,” Lup agrees. She draws herself up from her habitual slouch, tilts her chin up, and shoves her hands into her pockets. “I’ll do my best. Are there any, like, benefits? Not that I can really use them, I live in my umbrella.”

“Definitely benefits!” Istus enthuses, but her smile turns a little wry, a little tragic. “Unfortunately, I can’t give you the sorts of things I’m giving the boys, but there’s a little something I can do.”

She weaves a new color into her knitting, and a little pendent, the same as Istus’ holy symbol, hovers in front of Lup.

Lup tentatively reaches out and brushes her fingers over it before taking the necklace in hand. It feels real, feels like the weight of bronze in her hand, a little cool but warming quickly, the grooves of it intense against her fingers. Shakily, Lup wraps the chain around her wrist, wearing it like a bracelet. “Cool, my dude.”

“Very cool,” Istus agrees, her eyes creasing as she smiles again. Her gaze is captivating and Lup can’t look away for more than a few moments. “Depending on how things go, I should be able to make that corporeal, when you have a body again. For now…”

For now, Lup has something new, the first thing in a century. Her fingers trace over the symbol again, her restlessness settling with the motion. It’s not the friendly warmth of her Phoenix Fire Gauntlet, but it feels almost as good, to have a weight around her wrist again. “Thank you.”

Istus is studying her, eyes still soft and fond. “I can’t give you any useful items, I’m sorry, Lup. And I can’t change things, but is there anything I can do for you?”

“Yeah.” Lup’s throat goes dry and she coughs a little to clear it, which, dude, that is a weird-ass feeling after all this time. Her ribs actually shift when she sucks in a heavy breath. “I can’t remember what it feels like anymore. I’ve got my memories, totally rad, really great to be around that Voidfish problem, but it’d uh, it’d be really chill if I could remember what it was like to touch the people I love.”

Istus’ face twists with emotion, and Lup honestly kind of loves her for that. “Oh. Lup, Lup, of course.”

Another new little thread and some of Lup’s memories gain a tangibility that’s faded from them. She can recall the feel of her forehead pressed against Taako’s, the warmth of his fingers twined in hers, the scent of his favored incense. She can recall nudging her shoulder against Lucretia’s, Lucretia’s bony arm pushing back as she shoots Lup a shy smile, the warmth of sitting side by side. She can recall Barry’s arm around her waist, the feel of his hair against her fingers as she locks her hands behind his neck, the softness of his mouth as she leans up to kiss him.

The last almost soothes the pain of hearing his voice break when he saw Taako carrying her umbrella.

Lup’s fingers numbly come up to touch her cheeks. She’s crying. She barely remembers what it’s like to cry, to be able to express her emotions as anything other than a fiery blast.

“Thanks,” she tells Istus, voice raw. The memories wrap themselves like a furnace in the hollow of her ribcage. For the first time since before she died, Lup feels warm.

“You’re so very welcome, Lup,” Istus replies. “But we’re almost out of time, and I have to put you back before I let them go too. You know what’s coming for you all, and no matter what, I’m giving those boys the time to make that very difficult decision. All I need you to do is keep on being yourself.”

She blinks out for a couple of seconds, quick enough that Lup almost questions the gap at all, but then Lup sees the tears welling up in Istus’ eyes, watches her wipe them away. Her eyes are bright as the light of creation.

“You’ve always been wonderful, but you’re going to be amazing,” Istus tells her.

Lup’s whole being trembles with the force of that, thinks tears course even harder down her own face, but then she’s settled back into the usual confines of the Umbrastaff and Istus’ pendent is the echo of a thought.

She exhales, as much as the disembodied afterimage of a soul can exhale.

And then the building comes down, and the world starts over again.

[panharmonium]

next round of in-progress naruto thoughts under the cut!  we started season 12 finally and we’re only like ten episodes into it but i have already experienced the most stressful moment of my life so.  lots to scream about.

[spoiler policy disclaimer first, as always: I am watching naruto for the first time and have only gotten a partway into season 12.  i am trying to avoid spoilers, so please don’t interact with this (tags included, because the notifications now show them to me automatically) with any spoilery commentary, including even general things like “oh i love this show but it gets less good after X point” or “X season is better than Y season” or any general assessments of quality/likability/etc re: future seasons.  Thank you! <3 ]

- the amount of information dumped on us in the first half of this season is SO MUCH!!!!  i don’t remember any of it!  i can’t keep it straight!  we met kushina and did the entire nine-tails attack backstory and all that stuff about the land of eddies and the previous nine-tails jinchuriki (which, UH....yikes), and then a bunch of very confusing information about the sage of the six paths (we still don’t even know what that title MEANS) and some kind of special/complementary creation powers inherent to the senju and uchiha clans that apparently were used to create the tailed beasts from the ten-tails, and then all these references to other things like....madara fighting the first hokage to acquire his powers?  madara giving nagato the rinnegan (...how?)  nagato being an uzumaki??  and then we get dumped into the actual formation of the allied shinobi forces and how they’re organized and that in itself it a lot for me to keep straight........so many characters...i still don’t know half their names....i feel like i need to rewatch the entire first half of this season just to try to absorb all of this information again

- i can’t believe this show actually gave one of the mothers a personality.  shocking.  

- re: above - i liked kushina a lot.  but can i just say, while we’re on the subject, how FUCKED UP her entire story is???????  the hidden leaf administration......imported a child........to make her the nine-tails jinchuriki......a fate in which she had no say.....that’s.........abhorrently fucked up.  i thought we’d reached the limit of “how evil is this administration actually” but i guess not

- relatedly, i still feel like.......weird about minato’s choices?  not really sure where i stand on that one yet.  like...they kind of make us assume up until these episodes that minato HAD to use the reaper death seal and sacrifice his own life in order to stop the nine-tails, but now we know that’s not even the case.  kushina was going to take the nine-tails down with her.  minato didn’t actually have to die, and kushina didn’t want him to.  she didn’t want to make naruto the jinchuriki, and she didn’t want him to grow up without any parents.  and it’s not like her original plan would have been a permanent solution for everyone; minato says the nine-tails will just reemerge someday if they don’t seal it inside someone now, but still.  i dunno.  

it’s not like an EVIL choice.  i get what he’s saying.  i just don’t know how i feel about it.  minato on the whole has just been a character that i haven’t quite figured out how to connect with - i don’t dislike him, and i WANT to like him more than i already do, but even back at the end of the kakashi chronicles his vibe just felt a little weird to me.  a little...detached.  i dunno if i’m just like...wanting him to be something other than what he is, because the show builds him up so much as the ideal?  but then he doesn’t quite match what i envision.  

he’s not BAD in any way.  i just keep wanting him to be...warmer, or something, and maybe that’s just not who he is.

- i was bizarrely fond of young!Killer Bee.  the way he was just such an optimistic kid who never let anything get him down...he’s kinda like naruto in that way.

- and i had a Very strong reaction to that moment where motoi apologizes for trying to kill Bee that one time and Bee’s smiling response is “you know, i don’t remember that happening.”  that was, uh.....you can definitely feel what they’re getting at with that.  

honestly, the second half of this show is doing a lot with radical forgiveness/compassion and that is one of my BIGGEST thematic weaknesses, so i’m prepared to continue getting punched with it.

- KISAME LMAOOOO.  man, i’m gonna miss him.  i guess if you’ve gotta go out, feeding yourself to your own sharks is one way to do it.  

- i loved that flashback to kisame meeting itachi lol.  they have a brief tense moment and then kisame literally is just ‘lets be friends and have some fun’ and he’s not SERIOUS obviously; it’s meant in a ‘let’s just not make waves here so we can get our work done,’ but then it’s hilarious because the two of them literally never argue again.  they’re the only two akatsuki members who actually get along XD

- KONAN OMG.  ;________;  

- how fucking badass do you have to be to pull off that move though.  six hundred billion paper bombs???  six hundred BILLION?????????

- i was EMOTIONALLY COMPROMISED by the sudden jiraiya flashbacks and his little froggy tile system for keeping track of the children, oh my god.  that was...no.

- loved naruto telling the nine-tails “i’m sorry...i won’t do wrong by you...just hang in there for a while longer”.......i loved that.  (see again: radical compassion)

- how DARE they use the reanimation jutsu on asuma.  how DARE THEY.  

- i....really can’t imagine that sasuke is gonna be cool with them using itachi’s dead body like that.  like i know he can’t see that they’re doing it right now, but those bandages have gotta come off at some point, right? 

- definitely Did Not Like kabuto saying that he also reanimated “other shinobi of significance”...that really just leaves the door wiiiiide open and that is a stressful feeling

okay now the main event -

WHEN KABUTO SAID HE WANTED YAMATO FOR HIS EXPERIMENTS I STARTED FULL-ON SCREAMING THREATS AT THE TV (@PADMERRIE WAS THERE SHE CAN CONFIRM)

AND THEN THE VERY NEXT EPISODE KABUTO SWALLOWED HIM AND SLITHERED AWAY AND NOW YAMATO IS CAPTURED AND BEING EXPERIMENTED ON AND/OR USED LIKE A FUCKING...DNA BANK OR CHAKRA RESERVE FOR MADARA’S PLANT ARMY OR SOEMTHING AND IT’S HORRIBLE AND I WANTED TO CRY THE WHOLE TIME

you guys i cannot emphasize enough how upset i am about yamato being trapped in kabuto’s clutches i was clutching a blankie the whole time we were watching and i cannot stop thinking about it even into today; i am just sobbing on the inside

one of this show’s recurring themes is the whole “treating people as if they’re nothing more than weapons/tools to be exploited is bad actually; maybe we should stop doing that” (eg the cultural view of shinobi, the jinchuriki, the hyuga clan’s curse marks, all of orochimaru’s “projects” [kimimaro, taka, etc]), and yamato is another victim of that - we’ve barely gotten any details about his history yet but we do know that he was originally one of orochimaru’s experiments and i just cannot STAND the thought of him being back in the hands of those fucking people.  i cannot stand the thought of him being tortured and stripped down and experimented on.  the idea of him being trapped in this dehumanizing position again is KILLING ME INSIDE.  i need kakashi to break in there and rescue him YESTERDAY.

[lady-plantagenet]

Unsolicited Book Reviews (n4): The Daisy and the Bear

Rating:

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Even before I had an account, I tended to go to tumblr to see people’s opinions before buying a histfic. Certain books are either severely underrepresented, where I feel like there needs to be something on them, whereas others, though talked about enough, something more can still be said about them. So for my quarantine fun, I have decided to start a series where I review every medieval historical fiction novel I read. Hopefully, it will either start interesting discussions or at least be some help for those browsing its tag when considering purchasing it.

TL;DR: Just like ‘Death Be Pardoner To Me’, I really don’t know how to rate a book that isn’t a ‘novel’ in the traditional sense of the word. So I take each book and measure it against what it promises to deliver. This spoof of the Wars of the Roses did just that perfectly! I found myself laughing out loud at least every three pages (a feat for me). I decided to buy this book because I was a long-time reader of the author’s blog: A Nevill Feast, and despite it being a super informative and enlightening blog (she is also a published historian), I always found her humour extremely amusing. The ‘brow height’ of the jokes in this spoof, are of all levels, but almost always smart.

Plot: Alright, who doesn’t love a good crackship? Well be prepared for a crackship so heightening it’s almost cocaine: Margaret of Anjou and Richard Neville 16th Earl of Warwick. This is not even the only thing you will find in the chaotic but short (153 page) spread of this ‘novel’. You will get witchy ‘Elizabeth Woodville Grey Witch Plantagenet Queen’ ‘s love at first sight with Edward ‘The Rose of Ruin’ IV, who (naturally) cannot be mentioned without the words ‘blonde, tall and womanising’ being thrown in; You will also get a random stand-up comedy routine thrown by the Nevilles called ‘A Very Nevill Christmas’, Edgecote Moor, Edward’s capture, the Welles uprising and the Nevilles’ and Clarence’s escape to France summarised in text messages and a whole two-page chapter written in a northern accent! This is frankly what everyone needs in those gloomy times!

It essentially sticks to what actually happens except for the whole Margaret/Warwick thing, which ends up in Edward of Westminster being Warwick’s secret son. This doesn’t really change anything of course, but the part where he and Anne Neville find out and end up playing a prank on the parents is one of the hilights of this book! Is that too spoilery? Oh well. Before moving to characterisation, there is also this absolutely hilarious OC called Dakota FitzPercy which is the ultimate parody of all OCs in historical fiction: all men are overcome with lust just by looking at her even though she’s dressed in men’s garb half of the time (and for no reason!), as Warwick’s spy she knows martial arts as she was ooobviouslyy trained in Cathay and she has an unnecessarily tragic backstory! Of course like most OCs she adds NOTHING to the story and is therefore the perfect parody.

Characterisation: What really really elevates this book in my eyes and rating is that it is so obviously a parody of historical fiction and not the figures themselves. A goodreads reviewer (who I have a lot of respect for btw) has said that this book often crosses the line into ‘defaming the dead’. With all due respect, I have to disagree as it is some of the portrayals in ‘serious’ historical fiction novels about these characters, which are the true offenders. This is what is being lampooned here and, as such, the book defends their reputations by drawing attention to how silly and sometimes downright offensive some authors’ takes on people like Warwick, Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville are.

I can’t tell you how much I laughed at ‘Frail and Angelic © Dickon or Richard’ being so frail and angelic and good, Isabel Neville constantly being reffered to as a ‘prawn’ on her father’s ‘cheeseboard’ (obviously at the hackneyed use of the phrase ‘pawns on a chessboard’, which is incessantly repeated with regards to female characters). Among others: Clarence constantly knocking over his wine when he’s not drinking it, Anne Beauchamp constantly being reffered to as ‘pale and insipid’ (no other reason just because she’s a woman ergo...), Edward IV constantly sleeping with everyone around him, Cecily ‘the Rose of Rabies’ being beautiful, proud and pious (her only three personality traits). Don’t even get me started on Margaret of Anjou’s obnoxious French accent (rofl- it turns into a German one by the end) and nonesensical sluttiness. Another fav part must be the one with Elizabeth Woodville offering to call up a fog at Barnet and Edward being something like ‘well you know, it’s true that they won’t see anything but neither will we. I don’t think you understand how important vision is in a battle’ (like damn straight why has no one even bothered to mention this). Overall, humorous characterisation is done best by someone so well-versed in the history as the author (K L Clark), because she really does a good job teasing out some jokes which only seasoned conoisseurs of this period would know e.g. the Countess of Salisbury’s attainder.

Prose: Probably the crowning virtue of this book. The author does not only aptly parody the portrayal of these figures in popular histfic, but she EVEN PARODIES THE PROSE. I couldn’t stop laughing whenever we got the ridiculously gratuitous smut extract - you know the ones where the author describes the act in such a ridiculous and metaphorical manner that you don’t even understand what’s happening. She also parodies the repetitive and long-winded tell-don’t-show prose with such mastery it gave me great satisfaction.

An example: “This all made Richard of Dickson sad because he loved his brothers, though he loved Edward more than he loved George. He also loved his cousin, Richard Lord Neville of Warwick. He loved him more than George but less than Edward. He also loved the Earl of Warwick’s daughter, Anne. A lot. He wished his brother had let him marry Anne against his wishes at the same time that George married Anne’s sister Isobel (also the Earl of Warwick’s daughter), though he handn’t let him marry her either, against his wishes or not. It was all making his heart ache so very much”

Not to mention the over-written prose: ‘A bag drips with the blood, hangs from the saddle of a horse whose animal innocence shields it from the horrors of its burden. Black hearted Clifford chortles as he rides, his prize, his gift, his paeon, his song to his mistress oozing, dripping calaminous blood’

I’ll stop now before I get accused of copyright (not sure how it works but oh well).

One last thing I will say is that each chapter varies in type of prose, sometimes it’s written as a play, a soliloquy, first person and sometimes even text messages and letters hahaha.

Overall, A massively chaotic but enjoyably written and quite intelligent hodgepodge. I may have revealed a lot in this review, but this does not even scratch the surface of the multitude of other gags you will find inside! Highly recommend for anyone already familiar with this period and with a sense of humour! Now excuse me while I go back and read something serious lmao

[rappaccini]

so. the article from nerdist featuring tua s2 plot details is out, and i’m gonna lay out some thoughts on it regarding everyone’s arcs as they’re being described to us.

spoilers below cut.

luther:

(salt: locking vanya up didn’t doom the planet. charging her at her concert did. hopefully that’s just the writer getting the details wrong.)

personally, i buy it. luther’s deeply dependent on the family and the mission, and he still hasn’t processed that his father is to blame for his deformity and his exile to the moon (he still blames himself for not being a good enough number one, and though he subconsciously knows it wasn’t his fault, he hasn’t admitted it to himself yet).

and being apart from them is going to leave him even more adrift than he was in s1. hopefully the show’ll execute that disillusionment and that sense of loss well. hopefully, the show will execute luther continuing to detach from his father’s teachings, and learning to stand on his own two feet well.

and seeing luther alone in the real world is interesting. i’m excited abt big oblivious baby luther stumbling through the 60s.

but. if luther isn’t fighting hard to get back to the family, if that strong sense of morality (confused as it is, he still has one) he has is suddenly gone, if he suddenly Kinda Forgets about his desire to save vanya,  that’s some bullshit.

diego:

(salt: that whole first sentence. lol no diego’s arc fucking didn’t. it flew into the stratosphere.

diego still struggling with his anger is promising. it’s one of the biggest issues he has, and seeing him actually put a dent in it this season could be really great, especially given that last season he... kinda didn’t. he’s a very, very angry man, deep in denial about how over his father’s teachings he is, and s1 shat the bed hard with helping him realize that he’s lying to himself about being over it, specifically because he’s still doing all the things his father trained him to do, all on his own.

and diego getting a leadership arc is great! he needs to have that responsibility on his shoulders to understand that he isn’t actually suited to it. hopefully, he chooses to take it on himself; it’s a lot more effective then Well I Guess I Will By Default bc it gives him agency.

(+so i take it he and luther won’t reunite for a very long time. interesting. i kinda like that, but i think it’d work better if they do meet up, but then have a falling out and go their separate ways for a while.)

(+no mention of lila with him, despite being promoted alongside her. interesting; i’m guessing her role is too spoilery to be let on about like this.)

(+i’m guessing lila’s going to tag along with him, pretending to be an ally, because she wants to get her hands on the academy. i’m hoping she’ll be a major villain mostly bc diego has a bad track record with women and if she’s an antagonist, she can’t get fridged.)

(+i’m also really hoping lila’s a villain, because if he jumps immediately from eudora to her, we don’t lose sympathy for him doing so, if lila’s manipulating him. getting his own version of leonard is a great way to drive that conflict, especially if she stokes his anger and he lets it blind him.)

(but. if diego suddenly realizes, why yes i ~am~ meant to be the leader, and doesn’t come to the conclusion that his rivalry with luther is one-sided and totally based in reginald’s manipulations, and that he is better suited to having a supporting role in the team.... bullshit. look at diego’s leadership style in s1: ‘you don’t get a vote unless you agree with me (103). also i have no concrete plan even though i said i did, and will immediately ditch you all anyway to go it alone, and my first impulse is to abandon wounded members (107).’ diego’s clearly better meant as a strong right hand who can challenge luther when he fucks up, and back him up when he gets it right (see 110).)

allison:

yeah we were right. allison’s gonna have a real shitty time, and seeing her try to navigate the 60s, especially without her power, should be very interesting. it also seems like she’s going to try to fit in by interacting with the black community in dallas.

and bringing up allison’s upbringing; it’s something we’ve talked about before, but getting to actually see its effect on her should be great. allison probably has an incredibly complicated relationship with race: 

she was raised by a white british guy (or an alien that looks like one), a sentient british-educated chimpanzee, and a robot mother who was literally coded and built to resemble a white 50s housewife. 

given their upbringing within the house, race likely didn’t play much into how they were brought up; they were all uniformly abused and manipulated, and the thing that determined hierarchy was loyalty to reginald and their superpower.

media coverage of allison would’ve been Different (full of microaggression), but in a way she couldn’t quite understand, and as the Only Girl in the academy, she wouldn’t have been marginalized in terms of press coverage.

(notably, look at the in-universe merchandise featuring allison: almost none of it gets her skin tone right. it’s very, very telling.)

she is the ‘daughter’ of a billionaire. she was raised in an environment that quite literally could have given her anything in the world, and when she left it, the people around her would still treat her differently because of her father.

and she entered adulthood as an already-world-famous former child star who became one of the most famous actresses and personalities in the world. 

add onto that her rumor being how she got anything and anything, from roles to friends to lovers (sans luther) to her child.

she absolutely did grow up in a bubble, and now it’s going to pop. seeing her grapple with that should be a big deal for her, and man oh man do i hope the writers are smart enough to handle it properly.

+allison’s major crutches were always her fame and her power, and now she has neither. so now she has no choice but to rely on herself to get by. in the 1960s, this is an especially challenging task given the sheer mountainload of bullshit she’s going to have to get past.

+really, this is a promising arc for her. allison needs to learn that she doesn’t need her power to be loved, or to find her way in the world. and this might just be it. We Will See about how tua handles the racial politics, but it could work.

(real talk: if allison gets her rumor back immediately, bullshit. she has to get it back eventually, probably by the end of this season- they do mention her cords were only lacerated and not severed for a reason, and it’d be a waste to keep her silent forever- but if she gets it back immediately, she’s robbed of an incredible means through which she can develop. she needs it back, but not early in the season.)

klaus:

klaus immediately adapting to the situation works. the guy’s made of rubber. he bounces around and survives a lot of bad shit because he’s incredibly resilient.

and him having experience with time travel is a good touch; everyone but him and five are especially out of it and he’s ready to hit the ground running (those bodily side effects five and klaus discuss should probably hit them hard in 101). but in his case, he’ll be running off in a nonsense direction, because he isn’t mission-oriented, he’s id-driven.

+mixed feelings on the plot he’s getting. on the one hand, i buy klaus starting a cult. he’s weird enough to go for it, and with his newfound reveling in his powers, i can absolutely buy him abusing the shit out of it for attention. bonus if he just uses ben and that causes tension.

but... big sigh. so. klaus shouldn’t be over dave yet, and this was a prime opportunity for him to have an arc about going to find him (since he’s alive at this time and klaus, if he actually gave a shit, would probably be compelled to do so, since there’s no way in fuck he’s over him), realizing that this dave isn’t his dave, that the relationship is well and truly over and he has to move on with the family. i’m indifferent about klave on a good day, but it deserved better closure. it seems like him, diego and vanya are all just gonna have their loss of their significant others utterly swept under the rug which would be a fucking waste.

and damn they sure did take the ~bUt WhY iS nO oNe LiStEnInG tO KlAuS~ stuff the fandom kept shrieking to heart. and given the reaction so far... man. oh man. oops! ppl sure did wish for this shit on a monkey’s paw, huh.

hopefully the plot’ll lead somewhere decent. this falls into the category of Would Have Preferred Something Different, But Sure, Maybe This Might Work Out.

ben:

ben getting anything at all? love that.

ben’s still dead at the beginning of s2, so him getting an arc revolving around his newfound agency and his ability to actually interact with the world? love that. it fits him extremely well, and helps him stand on his own as more than Klaus’s Sidekick, and it’s exactly what he needs.

ben and klaus’s relationship straining because now klaus can’t rely on ben to just be there for him all the time? loooove that.

(+.... ben’s death. what happened. and is it going to make sense given what s1 set up.)

still holding out hope that ben somehow causes this apocalypse, that ben comes back to life sometime before the series ends.

of all the arcs, this is the one i think they have the best odds of getting right.

five:

this fits really well, at least from the description we have. 

five spent season 1 fucking off on the family to try and solve things on his own, and his absence led to vanya being fully ostracized, leonard getting an in with her, and vanya’s imprisonment. had he just stayed with the family (and with her in particular) everything would have been fine. 

so at least it seems that he’s realized that getting the family together to solve this is imperative, and that’s his priority. that’s good. it’s a tangible change from his Do It Alone mindset that makes perfect sense, and shifting from that philosophy to aggressively trying to reunite the family is exactly where he needs to go.

(+interesting that his priority matches up with diego’s. i’m guessing they’ll butt heads, or head up different groups of reunited hargs).

(+five not being phased by the new time period fits well. especially given that this is one he’s already been to, that his older self is probably running around.)

(+that sense of responsibility, that I Have To Fix It mentality and the intense anxiety it causes, is something that carries over from s1 and honest to god, we were robbed of five breaking from the pressure of it all in 110. hopefully, we’ll get him cracking under that weight in s2)

(+the commission should probably have some involvement in s2. given that five fucked up their offices, they’re probably especially angry with him. not to mention the potential of running into his past self. he’s got a lot to worry about.)

vanya:

for fuck’s sake. the amnesia thing we were joking about is... happening. 

okay. i hate it.

the reason why amnesia plots are so difficult to get right is that they fuck up character development; they erase crucial events in a character’s life, so they can’t be affected by them or react to them, and potentially never give them back at all.

in vanya’s case, it seems like they’re going to literally wipe the resentment and anger out of her and reset her to a calmer, more placid, palatable (more crowd-pleasing) setting. god forbid people dislike vanya, because anger makes her unlikable, so we need to literally erase it.

the effect of this is, that all that important development is not only gone, but she can’t react to or process what just happened to her: 

i guess that big question of How The Fuck Is Vanya Going To Move On From Leonard That Fast has been answered with ‘she’ll Kinda Forget’ all about it. recovering from the incredible betrayal of the man she loved manipulating her, and the trauma of killing him is probably getting totally skipped over, and they’ll hand her a forget-your-trauma-here’s-a-wholesome-romance love interest in sissy. trash.

that anger and resentment towards her family, who in 110 she turned her back on, tried to kill, and then had that fear that they hate her and want her dead reinforced when they tried to kill her at the icarus... that anger’s gone. we won’t get to see her grapple with it, or figure out how to reshape it. it’s just gonna be gone. what a waste.

vanya actively avoiding the family at first, because she’s afraid of and angry with them, and gradually coming to regain faith in them and realizing that she wants to reunite with them? nah. she’ll just forget.

and she can’t even have the agency to choose how and when she reconciles with and rejoins the family, if she doesn’t remember who they are and what history they share. the story made the choice for her. ugh. 

so, vanya gets amnesia in the dallas graphic novel, which, fair enough. in that context, comic-vanya was shot in the head. show-vanya’s going to get it because she was plowed into by a car (i’m guessing sissy’s driving it).

(... but. you coulda just... not made her an amnesiac. god knows you’ve taken other liberties. this is a bad move that shouldn’t have been brought into the show, especially not with the vanya you wrote.)

i do think it’d be interesting to see vanya in a different, calmer, less dysfunctional environment, but it’d be beyond a fucking waste to erase her memories while she’s in it. it’d be so much more compelling for a vanya who’s never had this kind of security, to see a home with it, and to realize she might want that too.

it seems like s2 is going for vanya going to have to decide whether she wants to return to the hargs and a ‘she doesn’t need them, they need her’ angle... and it’d be so much more fucking compelling if she didn’t have amnesia. if she did remember everything, and still had to make that choice, because if the story makes sense, she has to return to them. and it’d be so much more impactful for a vanya who remembers everything to overcome that pain, stop fleeing, and choose to go back with them. 

and on top of that, so vanya... gets used to her powers because she had the trauma scrubbed from her brain, and not because she has to spend the season coming to grips with her trauma in order to safely access them. what. it feels like a quick fix to the question of her powers:

vanya spent all of s1 discovering and developing her powers. she needs to spend all of s2 in and out of control, grappling with the power itself and what she did with it. if she’s as powerful as season 1 says she is, it needs to take time (most of a season) for her to figure this out. 

if she really does Kinda Forget then it resets her development. it robs her of the ability to process that her powers were concealed from her, that she hurt allison, that she killed leonard and pogo and destroyed the house and attempted to kill her siblings. it robs her of the challenge that her development faces: how is she going to look beyond all that pain, and find a way to understand and control her power anyway? 

it feels... so much like they’re just skipping past the Hard Part. they did the work to build vanya to this point, and she had such an incredible opportunity to dive into that trauma, and slowly get over it and instead... we’re gonna fucking skip it? huh??????????

it feels like vanya’s getting the season 1 allison treatment: we know you have a lot of serious issues, and that you have this incredible power and what you did with it needs to be addressed, and this incredibly upsetting trauma that you need to deal with, but if we do that onscreen, the audience might not like you anymore, and also we couldn’t figure out how to do it, so we’re gonna just skip over it all and solve it offscreen, and make you well-adjusted, and calm, and nice and likeable and over it.

oh boy. oh fucking boy. we’re in it now.

the minimum the season must do for vanya’s arc is have her get her powers under control, and reconcile with the family and return with them. that’s all they have to do to pass. and by pass i mean pass-with-a-d-letter-grade, which essentially means ‘well. you didn’t fail.’ guess they’re going for that d.

sure, it might work out. but... will it. honest to god, will it?

and even if it does, would it have been better than vanya just remembering everything? (no.)

... look. those memories have to come back, and they have to come back real fucking soon. 

(... god. imagine if they never fucking come back.)

.............................................................................................................................

so uh. real mixed bag, from what we’re seeing so far.

there’s a lot we don’t know, like how the story’s going to develop. but this is a taster of what we’re getting, so we need to manage our expectations.

and in terms of my own personal opinions on the arcs as we see them so far:

Cautiously Optimistic: ben, five, allison

Could Work, Jury Still Out: luther, klaus, diego

Oh God No Please No: vanya

[comicteaparty]

April 18th-April 24th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble  chat that occurred from April 18th, 2020 to April 24th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

What are your personal rules of thumb for determining whether a certain page needs a maturity or trigger warning?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i have no rule of thumb and i'm really curious to read what other people think about this

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually ask people if they think it needs one, and I only ask if it is significantly different than what I've been doing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I guess it depends on the subject and the severity. There are the basic ones, like rape, excessive gore, suicide, graphic sex, common phobias, etc. Things that can very easily trigger a large group of people or are generally not allowed in PG-13 movies. But there are other times I don't know if putting a warning or labeling it as mature is necessary. For example, profanity, suggestive material, violence (that doesn't involve gore), and again typically things that can make it into a PG-13 movie. Once it starts to be graphic enough to move into the realm of rated R, that's when you should start putting warnings. My problem with warnings as a creator is that the warnings can kind of spoil the contents of the chapter, so I try not to use them unless what happens in the comic could potentially harm a large number of people by not warning them.

RebelVampire

As a reader I do want to chime in say I agree with that last part. Whenever I see warnings, they are very spoilery so there's no surprise when I get to the warning part of the chapter/episode/page. I expected it so it loses some of its emotional value for me. Or, on the flipside, is so minor it shouldn't have had a warning that its ultimately underwhelming and disappointing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm wary about it

I am very sparing with my warnings, because I don't want the readers to lose any of that emotional impact.

carcarchu

my target audience for my webcomic is middle schoolers so the content i produce is never something i feel i need to put trigger warnings for. personally i think you don't really need to tag things unless the content is significantly different from what is expected from the comic. like if it starts out a lighthearted romp and then suddenly there's beserk levels of violence that probably ought to have some warning

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I would probably put a CW for blood, gore etc. Of any level just to be safe. Different people have different sensitivities, and as a sex-averse ace I know I often would like CW on sexual/sex-adjacent content that others might not think was enough to need one so. I just err on the side of caution

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I specifically never put warnings in anything I write. If something I write deeply upsets someone or makes them extremely uncomfortable, that's a good thing. It means I've done my job in expressing and conveying the emotional context I set out to accomplish in most circumstances.

My background is poetry and I've only ever read a single book that had any warnings attached, and that was at the beginning of the book, not for each poem. Even then, it was from an author who was particularly, er, well a bit off their rocker.

Like, if you open a collection of poetry and you're surprised to see heavy topics covered...that's your own fault at that point.

If I had opened one of my favourite collections, The Flame by Leonard Cohen, and saw content warnings, I would have probably said in my head "Why the fuck is this here?" and "Well, no shit that's in here, this is Leonard Cohen."(edited)

My job is to convey and express regardless of what the reader might think. It's never my job to guide or warn them, it's my job to present to them.

Fiction, outside of that catered to younger audiences, tends to contain a lot of stuff that can be deeply uncomfortable to the reader (yes, even comedy). I've read stuff that's really gotten to me emotionally, and that's OK, that's a good thing, the author presented what they intended to (G-d knows they did). If you don't want that, then really, you just have to be cognizant of the fiction you're reading and remember that stories about life often have all aspects of life in them.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I have read things (though mostly non-fiction) that have made me want to cry or so sick that I felt the need to vomit. The author didn't warn me of that. They presented what they had without pretext nor excuse. They did their job. Those are very much extremes, but the point is that I consensually opened those texts knowing that might happen. I mean, it's not hard to look at the subject matter or what the reviews say and think "Hm, OK, this book isn't all sugar and roses". Frankly, though, I just feel that the content warnings and all tarnish the authenticity of a text that stands on its own.

Sorry for the rambling, but admittedly, I do include a content warning for that in my username!

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don‘t do content warnings, but I try to make sure to be upfront about the type of story people can expect.

Seen the results of someone springing a graphic, surprise character-gets-raped-to-death into until then fluffy childfriendly story for „trolololOLOL, I made you have a FEEL, I am an ARTISTE.“

It‘s disrespectful to the reader at best, after all they need to be able to make an informed decision if they opt in or not.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, that's plain bad writing, but dramatic tone shifts can and are used effectively.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I thought about content warning because I have seen comics that was upsetting to me and readers, and there was no trigger warning. Just a side note in the first chapter that the author explain that 'their characters' weren't a representation of every trans experience. But still had backlash for it. So some content warning when it comes to sensitive stuff like trauma, gender disphoria should be stated somewhere? I wasn't Trans but effected, I assume it was worse for trans readers seeing uncomfortable scenes that remind them of bad experiences.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

When I was younger, I used to be into a lot of animated stuff, and there was this one anime (don't judge, I was like fourteen) called Steins;Gate that, for the first half, is relatively comedic and lighthearted, before a very dramatic tone-shift in one episode where most of the main cast die on-screen and it becomes a conspiracy/time-travel thriller. It was actually very, very good, and it's an incredibly popular show because of it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yeah. I think this is what content warnings are coming from: trying to enable the reader to make an informed decision of they wanna opt in to a story or not. It‘s a matter of consent.

They‘re not perfect, but better than nothing.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I agree with @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] here on the point that it's about being able to knowingly consent to a potentially unpleasant experience

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly I'd rather have a small spoiler at the end of the page before Something happens than potentially hurt someone

Again, only if it's really tonally dissonant

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

There's plenty of things I don't mind if I'm aware of it beforehand so I can make sure I'm in a good headspace, but the same things could totally put me off a story/creator and give me issues for months if I wasn't expecting them

Source: personal experience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Webcomics are probably very different, but I'd find it would put me off a lot in poetry (and it's also something you don't see in it; it's just not a part of the industry culture). But people having negative emotions from reading is very commonplace and par for the course.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

But I also feel that content warning do give away bit of spoiler. I was taught the good way to protray an incoming dark topic is to give hints along the chapters, rather than 'spring it out of the blue'. I haven't written anything super dark/angst before though. It's uncomfortable for me and I haven't cross that threshold of feeling yet(edited)

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

Personally I feel like if your story or scene or whatever relies so heavily on the shock of specific content that it would be ruined by the "spoiler" potential of a content warning, it's bad writing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I feel like stories in general are not ruined by spoilers, though some people don't like them. But if we're in a scene and we're gonna see someone get cut in half and you say "hey this battle has extreme violence" that's hardly a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Not always. Shock, if it's not in bad taste, can be used as a device to help set the emotional context for the rest of the passage. It's bad writing to use it bombastically and haphazardly, but in light touches, like a ghost pepper, it can help. On its own, though, yeah it's usually bad writing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Since comics are visual there is more need for this kind of a thing because it can be more intense for readers

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Ah, yeah, that's true. My field doesn't have visuals.

I can imagine it may be different in that case.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Also, think like. Movies also have this, that's what the rating system is

A movie rated r for extreme violence isn't a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Especially if it has Tom Cruise in it.

RebelVampire

Yes but imagine if the movie paused right before the worst parts to say "Hey this is gonna be a mature scene"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Age ratings ARE content warnings.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Tv shows do it at the beginning of an episode

And, with comics you have natural pauses

Putting a small banner at the bottom of an update doesn't interrupt the flow the same way putting it at the top of one would, and it can prep people to know not to even open the next update kind of thing

I haven't done content warnings my content is only pg13 but I've thought a lot about it for future, more intense ideas

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

In Germany‘s there are no tv show content warnings, but certain stuff can only be aired after 20:30 or on dedicated channels.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with @RebelVampire . In my favourite movie of all time by far which you 100% have to watch (IT'S REALLY GOOD!!!) On the Waterfront, there's one scene which really gut-punched me when I first watched it because it's, well, fairly disturbing, but if the movie stopped before it and some dude came up and said "B'ys, cover your children's eyes", that'd be ridiculous. Age warnings pre-screening are fine because it's an audiovisual form, but considering that text doesn't have that visual or audio component, I just don't see the need. I can understand why you would do it as a comic artist, though.

Deo101 [Millennium]

There are also, for movies and TV, sites like "does the dog die?" Which provide this kind of information for people with triggers. Comics don't have this kind of a site though so it's on the creator

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

That reminds me, I need to put Nyx+Nyssa‘s age rating note up. g

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

People with triggers are the sticking point for me. Even if most people would be okay, there's people who won't be and I don't want to act like they don't matter when I'm putting warnings on my content. I feel like it's my responsibility if I'm making that content.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I know someone with cPTSD who cannot engage with media without content warnings; because disassociation is NOT fun and dangerous. „Does the dog die“ and similiar things mean she can engage with media without having to rope in others as betas.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yes, same here. Obviously you can't warn for everything, many people have obscure and specific triggers, but there are common ones that are generally sensitive subjects that I don't think it's bad to warn a bit about

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't think it is your responsibility, but rather those with triggers to be careful. I'm a trauma victim and I do have triggers, but you know, I can't expect everyone to know that (especially with how hilariously specific they are). If you're worried, do your research

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

There‘s a huge difference between being responsible of for someone and being mindful for someone.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

As someone who has triggers as well - I'd prefer to be able to see at a glance. It's awful having to be on guard constantly and worried about what if you didn't do your research quite well enough

Deo101 [Millennium]

I personally only read comics on reccomendation because of mine

They're not common ones but I've never been annoyed by trigger warnings that aren't for me

It usually looks much different from the comic so you can just quick look and scroll past

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I really understand that and I can understand it in the context of your industry because it has that visual component, but in the context of mine it's not done because content warnings wouldn't really make much sense for my industry. What will annoy me is when trigger warnings are uploaded for every part of the webcomic. Like, that's a little extreme.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I understand it's very different context for poetry - but I'm talking about comics

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would agree that uploading for every page would be extreme, but I would think I'm that case it would be at the start of the comic or in the description

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

About pages! They exist for a reason.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

At the beginning of the entire comic, if you want to, that's fine. I think it does change the mindset of the reader and can be detrimental to the story in some cases, but if you know it's not, then that's fine! Of course, that problem can be solved just like @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] just suggested: put it on the About page.

Yeah, no, I could get behind that.

For webcomics, I think that would be a good solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Some sites don't offer about pages, though, and if it's not a major theme and only in a small part it's nice to put it in the comic itself too

Like my comic is generally very light-hearted but coming up I do have a scene that's significantly more violent than the rest of the comic has been, and I debated whether or not to warn my readers about it

I don't want to put a violence warning in my description though because it would draw the wrong audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, it really depends. If it's suddenly looks like the notes of a medical student, then put a warning, but some light violence is probably fine.

Others could probably give a better opinion on that though.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I liked how dumbing of age handled it‘s suicide warning - it was specific to that particular page because it dealt with specific details as opposed the more general discussion. So that page got a small note on top. Didn‘t remove the emotional impact, but allowed people to brace themselves or opt out.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Page the Poet refuses content warnings and enjoys their readers' suffering (/s).

All jokes aside, what do you mean about some sites not offering About pages? I'm not well-versed on hosting web-comics.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Well, for instance with webtoons you have a 500 (?) Character description, and that's it

Maybe it's 1500 or something idk it's been a while since I wrote mine. But it's not a seperate page like how I would have on my own site

On your own site it's awesome cause people can just, if they have triggers they can go there to see jf they're fine to read

But with webtoons, tapas, and other hosts you get one page and it's just your comic and description

So putting "violence warning" there is much different than on a seperate page

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I thought most web-comics had their own site?

Deo101 [Millennium]

I mean I do, but many don't

And most readers these days are on hosts I think

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh. Yeah, alright, I see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

My description says pg13, LGBT, and slowburn and that's all it gets from me. I would be more descriptive in my about page which I do still need to code

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm curious, why specify the LGBT part?

Deo101 [Millennium]

But yeah so it's a very case by case basis depending on where you are and all that

Oh because I want lgbt people to know my comic has an LGBT cast and is catered to them

It's so my comic more likely finds my target audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

OH.

carcarchu

i think about stuff like school live and bokurano and consider that i'd be really upset if the sudden dramatic shift in tone was overtly warned beforehand because the shock factor was so important for those series in particular so i don't know how to handle warnings for stuff like that

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That makes sense.

Please excuse my idiocy haha.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not idiocy, it's a lot of potential to learn ;)

Carcarchu, it's really a personal choice of the author and what they want. If you don't wanna do it cause you think your story would suffer, that's totally fine. But personally and a lot of other creators agree, id rather potentially risk a slight decrease of my impact to protect some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see, in poetry, it works like this: you find a journal that suits your poetry, you submit it, you don't get published, and you cry yourself to sleep. Repeat twenty odd times until you get accepted somewhere. Then, you get published there and you tend not to worry about target audiences and stuff yourself. 'Tis a foreign world to me!

RebelVampire

Yeah I agree that I think at the end its a personal choice cause you'll never please everyone whether you do or don't use warnings

carcarchu

i'm thinking about my experience reading those two series and being blown away by the sudden tone shift and really liking one of those series because of it. but then i think about my experience with madoka where i actually started watching it BECAUSE i saw a spoiler about the twist and it piqued my interest. i still enjoyed madoka but i wonder how my experience with it would have been different if i went in blind

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@carcarchu , I'm with you. It really depends on what you can do, I think. If it's available to those who need it without expressly being there for those who don't want spoilers (An optional CW of sorts), that could work.

carcarchu

i like the idea of optional cw

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know if it's an idea that could work, though, as I'm not experienced with web-comics. @Deo101 [Millennium] , your thoughts?

Deo101 [Millennium]

On a personally coded site you could probably with a lot of effort make something like that work, but that's not really so much an option on hosts

Tapas has a mature toggle where that specific page says "this contains mature content" or something, but everyone sees it

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If it's personally coded, it should be fairly easy with a small bit of javascript, right?

Deo101 [Millennium]

And for other sites it's not an option at all other than for the entire series as a before you enter sort of deal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I personally would put warnings Because some chapters deal with traumatic subject matter and I’ve had friends see them and warn me about those However I wouldn’t just do content warnings for something like swearing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think you could code it easily, at least not with the systems I'm using.

Again the best solution I've come up with is at the end of the previous update, so people can skip over it easier and it doesn't interrupt flow the same way

carcarchu

the easiest way to do it on smth like webtoons would just to put some text on ur page that says something like "optional content warning for the next page in description, read at your own risk" but again that would spoil a potential twist

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly like Doesn't the twist just happen at the warning then instead of at the panel

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think the real solution is to just not write anything.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like it's not spoiling it it's just moving it a few lines up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Don't even write the webcomic. Best solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And content warnings don't say who or how

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Perfection.

carcarchu

i might be miffed if i read TWIST INCOMING and then had to wait a week to actually see it

Deo101 [Millennium]

Just a general, vague, "what"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Say there's triggering content, but don't say where or what. Put it on the last page too.

carcarchu

but it could potentially drum up interest like WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I mean

carcarchu

idk could go either way

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not like there's a twist!

Just hey things get intense

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know, it could still be triggering. I think we should just write no webcomic at all.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm I never thought of that

But what if people forget about the trigger and just jump right in

carcarchu

if they forget the trigger isn't that their fault and not the creator?

Deo101 [Millennium]

People who have the trigger will remember

carcarchu

they were given ample warning

Deo101 [Millennium]

And if they do not then I did what I could

Sorry but I have a specific trigger of people watching someone sleep, I've had two people warn me their comics include it, and I remember. And that was like a year ago

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

My stupid sense of humour aside, I do agree with Deo and Carcarchu. If you forget the trigger, that's your own fault. The author making that information available is one thing, but they aren't there to hold your hand.

carcarchu

oh man that's a super common trope deo that must be rough

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah but it's cool

Like I know it's a common trope and it's not really one you can see coming or anything :/ so it's cool

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think warnings are helpful tho if u be general like it contains a thing but u dont kno what it is till u read it

Like doe me it was doki doki lit club i didn't took seriously till it hit me and im like O

carcarchu

with dokidoki i knew about there WAS a twist but i didn't know exactly what it is so i was still shocked by it when it happened

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like "Graphic violence" isn't a spoiler especially if you're already like 3 pages into a fight scene

carcarchu

but again they warned about it pretty vigilantly in the beginning before u play dokidoki? i'm not really sure how you could miss it?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah.

In all seriousness, I like the About page option / optional CW, but I realize that might be impossible in a lot of scenarios.

Maybe put in the description of the first page "OPTIONAL CW BELOW" for example for those who want it?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, or the page before. Only concern is people not reading it, but then again that kind of falls under the "their responsibility" section

kayotics

I’ve put one warning in before, but I kept it to promo images (so like social media update images) and in the comic description a few pages before. My reasoning was: it was tonally different & darker from the rest of the comic, but I didn’t put the warning in the pages because of the reader is paying attention, the fact that its coming is pretty obvious. Who knows if I did the right thing it handled it correctly, but I really struggled with figuring out what to do

Deo101 [Millennium]

Another concern is that some comics will run for years, decades even, and so its sometimes impossible to know at the beginning what might need to be warned for.

I think that's good Kay.

It's unobtrusive and gives the people who need it what they need

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Optional warning on the page before, then?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I said earlier I was kinda planning on doing if it ever became necessary

kayotics

That’s essentially what it was. I think I wrote a caveat that the warning was a spoiler

Deo101 [Millennium]

That makes sense

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm if you’re doing it on the page before How specific should the warning be

kayotics

I know a lot of people don’t read page descriptions, especially when binging, so I’m banking on the context of the chapter being the biggest warning

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Like do you just say optional warning?

kayotics

What I did is I said something about the the content of the next page without getting into too much detail

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see things like "warning: graphic violence, sexual content, substance abuse," etc. Stuff like that

kayotics

Yeah. Mine was graphic violence or gore or something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Where it doesn't say who or how or anything, just a vague what

Which usually, the context of the scene is around that kind of a theme anyways where we can tell it's coming

So a content warning is more like "this does get turned up to an 8 here"

Though it can be a surprise where Something like what Kay did is really good

Like okay so spoilers but be warned

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'y, turn it up to at least eleven. Go big or go home.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm on a 1-8 scale

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But what about the saying? Heresy!

kayotics

I think in the context of my comic it felt like, to me, that I was turning it up to 8 from a 1 or 2. It’s not the MOST GRAPHIC thing I’ve ever seen, but with the entirety of the rest of the work it’s tonally different, which is why I needed the warning

My comic, at its worst, usually just sees some curses and cartoon violence.

This was, like, full on blood and gore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I jumped straight into 12 at one point for mine whoops

kayotics

So I think context of the work is important with a warning as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I'm usually around a 1-2 too. I've got pg-13 in my description and if I'm ever toeing the edge of it, I'm gonna warn about it

kayotics

If you have a violent or heavy comic already, warnings for each page is ridiculous. It’s when you turn it up that you should mention something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah exactly

DanitheCarutor

Aaah you know, I don't put warnings on my pages, because practically half the comic would have CWs due to the focus on upsetting themes. There was one instance where I did put one up for a page containing a lot of queerphobic language presented in a way that was jarring, and potentially triggering for people who've experienced something like that. Although I've somewhat regretted singling out that one page since the comic from that point only gets worse, in hindsight that one instance isn't bad enough to warrant a warning. I'll probably take it down once I stop being lazy. In general I feel a page-by-page warning is best for comics that don't normally have heavy stuff, it makes sense to warning for violence if that's not a normal thing in your comic, it might shock readers too much otherwise. As far as content, everyone has different sensitivity levels (someone put a CW up once for a character being yelled at by his dad), personally I would only use CWs for excessive violence/abuse, blood, mental illness, suicide, rape, gore, slurs and/or substance abuse. I've gotten a lot of mixed reception on warnings, there are people who want them up, in detail, on every page with potentially upsetting content. People who want them chapter by chapter, some like detail, some want a general warning. Then there are people who don't want any warnings either due to them being too spoilery, or they feel it ruins the immersion. I went for a warning in a pop-up on my main site and leaving a list in my description on other sites, mostly for the non-spoiler crowd and because of what I said before about practically half my comic being potentially triggering.

There are two chapters coming up where I'll be putting up a general warning banner at the start of the chapter, with a hidden list of triggers in the author's notes and an option to read a safer summarized version at the end of each chapter, rather than forcing everyone to read the whole thing. Just because the content will be really difficult for some in presentation and/or subject matter, and I don't want to outright distress anyone... at least without them understanding what they're getting into.

Like, even compared to how my comic already is the next chapters will be really upsetting... for some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It's not bad if people are upset or distressed. Like, full on disassociation from PTSD, obviously not, but I think these CWs are for them, not Alice Smith the average woman. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I feel like, because of that, the general approach is best. Adding a CW for someone getting yelled at by their father is too spoiler-y/specific in my mind.

carcarchu

i really like dani's approach with the summary at the end for people who want to know what happened but can't stomach actually seeing the nitty gritty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Here’s the problem tho...my series literally deals with trauma healing

So there’s going to be mentions of...going to therapy, friends talking about it

Not the actual trauma itself

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with CWs there.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But I’m really worried that if I have to put up trigger warnings every time...a lot of pages will have that warning

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

People know what they're getting in for.

If you're going to read a comic about healing from trauma...don't be surprised at content that's not very fun.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, my warnings are specifically for the mentally ill, people who've been in abusive situations and such. I don't want to end up bring back certain experiences, at least without them knowing what they're getting into.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm in that case I might have to put it in the summary itself then

That there’s trauma healing Of course it’s also about humor and slice of life, but I’ll add it in just in case

Would it help to get sensitivity readers to take a gander look?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, in my mind, a general synopsis of the basic plot is a good idea for a lot of stories so long as you aren't spoiling anything.

DanitheCarutor

Me? Nah, I mean, I should but it wouldn't change my decisions since my story is really tight and changing stuff would end up changing everything.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In this case, trauma-healing seems to be a part of that plot.

So, you know, if it's mentioned, I think that's blaringly obvious at that point to people that "B'ys, there may be some triggering shit here", y' know?

DanitheCarutor

Oh, I totally misread the convo. Lol I mean, you could get a sensitivity reader if you want to be on the safe side, but if you're writing from experience and you've done research I don't see a problem with not having one.

carcarchu

having read the first few chapters of shadow's comic trauma healing was not an aspect that i picked up from it(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sensitivity reader?

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree, I get more light heart tone with Shadow's story, but I know stuff ahead of time(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh nooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

maybe the aspects will come up as the comic progresses shadow

:0

DanitheCarutor

My comic is also about trauma and healing, and while I haven't experienced all the things my characters have, I did do a ton of research and talked to people. Although my comic is a vent comic so most of it is based off my experiences.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've just put general content warnings in the about page and appropriately rated my comic for its content. There will be things that are written thar i have no idea that could be triggering to people that exsist in a lot of media, it almost becomes impossible to sort through. And with the amount of content to sift through that would/wouldn't be sensitive to certain topics or just generally unaware, its tricky. If there is a reader with a potentially sensitive trigger, i would hope they could get a friend to do a read through if possible, but rarely have i seen comics go right into topics that would need such a hand to do so. Stories have descriptions and ratings for that reason, you're not going to find insane violence in Pokemon type stories, so the author has that responsibility of rating it correctly is what im getting at

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sorry, what's a sensitivity reader?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A sensitivity reader is like, a beta reader who specifically checks whether your work is offensive/ insensitive (e.g. when you're wondering "is my portrayal of this ethnic group offensive/ignorant?")

carcarchu

i think a sensitivity reader is for when ur writing a story that includes a particular cultural or ethnic group that ur NOT part of and u want to avoid making your story culturally insensitive

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Ooh Dani, is it Guide to Unhealthy Relationship? Your comic often stand out to me. I knew what I was getting into when I read it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I was a sensitvity reader for someone who was writing a viet american and keii pretty much sums it up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That's a thing? Who does that? Ethnic Studies professors?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's not just for ethnic groups

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I gave suggestions to add and avoid if ya writing a character from a certain ethnic group or marginalized group

like LGBT+, persons with disabilities etc

carcarchu

ethnic groups is the first thing i thought of but yes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, not ethnic studies professors.

Members of the marginalized group.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So if you're writing a trans character, you probably want a sensitivity reader who is trans

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep!

carcarchu

example the mangaka of golden kamuy has an ainu consultant who is ainu but i'm not sure if having a consultant is quite the same thing?(edited)

DanitheCarutor

@Joichi [Hybrid Dolls] Yeah, it is. I'm glad you were able to know! I try to make it obvious since CWs are pretty much the main themes of my comic. xD

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i think so

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A consultant can apply to sensitivity readers, yes, but goes beyond that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like the mangaka saught to reprsent ainus too

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know an MMA comic with an MMA consultant, for example

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But couldn't two members of that group, say, Jews, say completely different things? How can you guess the information to be reliable based on their simply being a part of that group? Surely, there are things people look for when hiring these people?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's still gonna be WAY better than not getting any, Page.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah but in that instance hearing from another perspective at least one person helps

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

At least you can be aware of possible....differences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And people who have experience as sensitivity readers know some common issues to look for, as well.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or cross reference

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It could be worse if the information is unreliable. What sort of qualifications does one look for?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like for me, reping viet folks and telling that to those saught viet rep in their comics

I told them "don't you freaking dare add tropes about the vietnam war I'm gonna come over to your house"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Friend of mine was a trauma survivor that I witnessed first hand

I suppose that qualifies!

But I think it helps to ask around

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This stems from writers writing what they think an experience/ person group is without doing research and just being ignorant and offensive and a call for ppl to do better

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like those stories should be left to the group experienced it instead

imo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH even when you do a ton of research on your own, a sensitivity reader can help you catch things that you never even thought of researching because you were unaware It Was A Thing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I still read some stories then they throw like the nam joke

and i'm like "I'm droppin this"

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yea I don't get cis ppl writing about the trans experience. Its not ur story

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed ya

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm a lot of artists write from experience

Perhaps if you need a sensitivity reader for say...being bi for example

Maybe find an artist who themselves is bi(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like don't write how they got there, but write the experience they gonna deal with in the comic

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because you get double: you get someone who’s bi and also someone who knows how to work the medium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like i doubt cis persons have the nuance for trans folk, same goes for non-poc thinking is okay to do weird nuance things with poc

like lmao idk that's a pet peeve of mine if someone is writing an asian character and really just

"yea he's asian, idk what nationality but its there."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im not into someone who isn't a minority writing about a minority experience as a personal preference, but the sensitivity readers aren't exclusive to that. There was an example in story help in this server where someone asked about writing for a certain group of ppl and wanted feedback

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I...remember that krispy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

carcarchu

i get what you're saying Tuyetnhi but i don't want authors to NOT include any representation just because they're scared of doing it wrong

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Several people warned him Including me

DanitheCarutor

A good example of sensitivity readers is Moana. The directors were old white guys, but they got Hawaiians to look over the script to make sure it wasn't disrespectful to the culture, or totally out of left field, since the tribe in the movie is based on Hawaiian tribes. Even though I didn't have sensitivity readers I still sought out people who experienced certain mental illnesses, medical professionals and mental health professionals willing the share their experiences and knowledge on the subjects I'm tackling before starting the comic.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and I get that, I mean like if they trying to do extreme nuance takes

leave that for folks who experienced that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Asscreed games used to do the same too

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I ain't againist that kind of rep, but I have a paricular idea how to go about it that's all lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Tho i don't know if they were successful

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's wrong with someone writing a character who is transgender if they're not transgender? There's a lot of good research done on transgender issues both medical and societal as well as a lot of written record. I also don't see the issue with writing an ethnic minority as a non-minority. "Far Beyond the Stars" was written by white men and it speaks about racial issues brilliantly. Consultants on the intricacies of culture, I 100% understand, though, for your narratives; that does make sense. Professors are hired by filmmakers and writers for just that IIRC.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sensitivity readers would not be a thing if people were not allowed to write characters outside of their own identity. Nobody's advocating that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ya

carcarchu

white people can write on poc's issues fine. but i have a problem when they act like they know more than the people who have experienced it first-hand

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Yep that's what I mean cara

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As long as you’re respectful about it

And open to changing ideas

RebelVampire

Ok Im gonna step in here now and say we need to take a step back perhaps cause I feel this convo might be becoming too heated.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Heated?

I think you're misreading. I don't believe anybody here is heated over anything. I didn't know there was an argument, honestly. Is there? Am I losing my mind here?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also these are instances that have been brought to light bc ppl want better rep from authours too. My last point on that!!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think anyone's angry, but this is an extremely sensitive/ heavy topic so we're all treading carefully!

carcarchu

i'm with page i thought it was all very civil

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remarkably so, frankly.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Usually these things spawn a lot of arguments. It's refreshing to see people, well, not do that.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye lol

RebelVampire

It is but this is the sort of topic where it can quickly hit the boiling point in a single message. And I've been seeing some warning signs in this convo. By all means if everyone can keep it civil, please continue. Consider this more a warning that right now, if you're getting angry, please step away from the convo cause I don't want to have to mute or ban anyway.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aight

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Warning signs? I really am losing my mind.

DanitheCarutor

Let me know if I've said or will say something that might be insensitive. I try to be respectful, but I'm overly comfortable with uncomfortable topics and can be like a bull in a china shop sometimes.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Its just a sensitive topic, page

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with me, but i'm also speaking from experience as sensitivity reader too.

so yea lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh yeah, on most servers, when this comes up, you have those who take the opportunity to say white people should die, then the ones who say the same about people of colour. It all devolves.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what the

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, b'ys, Discord is a wild place.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with Keii, these are sensitive topics, I'm reading each one carefully without jumping into a fight

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah, I been on discord since 2015 lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Gosh, I've been on it for years too! Seems so long ago I first came here!

Time flies, eh?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

still like, I find it kinda ridiculous someone is willing to jump like that

but yeah er, the topic at hand lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It doesn't need to go to that ridiculous extent to offend people, so I agree with Rebel on that we need to continue to be careful

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

(going to step out now but good convo y'all)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Offer people a bit of the word "race" and soon it turns into Nuremberg.

Good talking to you, mate!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Goodnight Eilidh!

Also I’m actually new on discord

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think that its a good practice that writers today are more sensitive to the readers. Not in a hand holding way, but in a responsible way where their work is properly tagged and rated and the consistency of such content is a warning as well (like danis comic) It's important to want to improve the reading experience for many and keeping in mind that some topics need to be handled with some more care

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye agreed!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In my field, I think it's a contest on how much emotion you can get out in one breath with gleeful abandon to how the reader feels.

carcarchu

but a problem with that is sometimes it feels like writers are held up to impossibly high standards and that they can't have ANY inkling whatsoever of any content that might possibly be construed as "problematique" by the purity police. the degree to which some authors are scrutinized is unreasonable and i think it often stems from having to be seen as a "pure" representation of whatever it is they are representing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sometimes it's not even that the standards are "too high"

DanitheCarutor

@FeatherNotes(Krispy) Lol if the word limit allows it, every self-promo of my comic is plastered with age and content warnings, dang it!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There will ALWAYS be those standards, they were always there. Ppl just didn't have that voice. I would not be worried about writing however, as i def see a problem with the purity thingie going around.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think carcarchu is talking about something very specific, Feather?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there will be some rep be messy and rip that's part of being human and making mistakes

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was an article talking about the direction of art and the consumers of such that covered this topic about the purity thing that i wanna findd

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like everyone can't be a saint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like when an ownvoices writer gets pitchforks and torches because their portrayal wasn't wholesome enough, and you are only allowed to write happy and wholesome stories about that group(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like

keii omg

yeah i'll die in the torches that's ok

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wait what

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah it's a thing

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Thats a thing

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What...????

carcarchu

yes that's what i'm talking about keii

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What

carcarchu

i also have a video about it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They're more upset at the story direction then

Not a purity thing

carcarchu

no it's a purity thing

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with Carcarchu on this one. I feel like some people would be up in arms if I wrote a story where a white guy is the protagonist and a black guy is the antagonist. Some people just see race.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know several LGBTQ peeps who are afraid to post their dark LGBTQ fiction because it might draw the attention of "only wholesome content allowed!!!" people

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WhgtttattTTT

nooo

DanitheCarutor

Oooh yeah, the puritans/sanitizers out there, they're a scary bunch. I've had a run in with a few people who've said my comic shouldn't be allowed to exist due to the content... and I've been called queerphobic... and that my comic is queerphobic torture porn... and other fun stuff. It happens.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHAAAAAAAT

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You'd be surprised how common this is.

RebelVampire

Yeah I have to say I've seen it a lot too

carcarchu

where have u been krispy that you haven't seen this?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I have been in my silent cave apparently

I also haven't been in fandoms for years if that helps lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You living like Patrick the Starfish?

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, we're kind of starting to get back into the olden days of demand for sanitizing art, people who work on darker content or horror get a lot of crap.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This is patrick

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

All kidding aside, TL;DR: shit's kind of fucked in some ways.

carcarchu

i've even had run-ins with such people irl... hasnt been the most pleasant. i was once friends (note once) who tried to convince me that i should turn my het romance story into a lesbian one? for no reason other than she preferred to read that kind of content?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ohhbsee thats where im confused

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Imagine if the sexuality were flipped. It would be outrageous.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I had a comment a year ago that the main love interest is "too gay to be straight"

and i'm like "excuse u?"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Yeah, make it straight. I don't like gay stuff."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

How is the relationship dynamic purity in that case?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's not purity police talk anymore, I think

carcarchu

not purity in that specific example feather but it's the same kind of person

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve also had people come up to me and ask why I don’t write a more lighthearted story

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's... a different issue

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OB

MY GOSHHH

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or “shadow, your shit is too dark why are you writing about this”

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

So ppl be telling u how to write ur chars now?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Life can only be happy and stuff :(( art can literally only be happyyy"

carcarchu

yeah this same person was also PISSED that there was a gem in steven universe who was "black-coded" and portrayed as a villain even though there were black coded gems who were not portrayed as villains as well

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sorry Krispy Life be like that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wthhhh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Black coded?....what series have they been watching carcarchu lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ah dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

These ppl have 2 much time on their hands RIP They wanna rip apart media, go after something that deserves it (likethebig2incomicscough)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They’re gate keeping(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Ah not too long ago I stumbled across an artist who drew more problematic stuff as a way to cope with trauma, which I guess was something their therapist suggested. Their stuff is pretty messed up, but someone started one of those "call out" videos on them, leading to thousands of people flooding their work with some of the most awful comments along with people trying to shut down their Patreon and social media accounts.

carcarchu

i later found out this person was also a terf so i ended the friendship right there when i found out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Dani that’s...what the fuck

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh nasty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

searches up terf Oh...

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I remember reading one person talking about how presenting "bad ideals" and whatnot in fiction had to be demonstrated to be bad ideals and not work and stuff and so on so forth.

carcarchu

i've seen that too dani

sadly more times than i can count

we all remember what happened to cucumber quest right?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It is terrible out there

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What’s cucumber quest

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What is cucumber

Quest oop

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"What is cucumber?": An essay in being Socrates.

carcarchu

long story short cucumber quest was a children's webcomic that was pretty popular but the author got bullied off tumblr for being "problematic"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh no

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Tumblr has a lot of crazies.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I like her work

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh noooooooooo

I still go on tumblr but I carefully choose my blogs

Because I don’t want this shit

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(All this being said, I wanna reiterate that just because those terrible pitchforks and torches people exist, doesn't mean all "I find this offensive" voices are invalid. Some things could genuinely be improved!)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also def wanna say that even tho there will be these wolves waiting to tear 'non perfect' media apart, please dont feel like u have to stop writing, ever. Dont be afraid bc of these stories, yall have good heads on ur shoulders and obvs want to share ur experiences and that is something ur allowed to do

carcarchu

fyi she didnt stop making her comic because of the bullying thing, it was a separate, unrelated issue much later(edited)

i hear you keii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I find it hilarious of the idea That there are people out there who tell someone not to write stuff like abuse even tho they’ve never experienced it

And the writers themselves have

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was someone who tried to boycott assassins creed 2 bc the main char reminder her of her ex bf

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omfg

DanitheCarutor

It's really sad and a little terrifying if your work doesn't fit the sanitization standards... Sometimes I think of that "what if" chance just the right person finding my comic and launching a take down campaign on it. Which is why I'm totally fine with staying as a smalltime person in the shadows. Also people don't usually want to even read through my comic, so that's a plus.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

why lmaoo

oh dang dani that's one fear

but i'm also like "I wonder how folks react to me dealing with that like I ignore them"

would that be a power move or I'd be burning harder?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Shit I never thought of a takedown campaign

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It's a genuine fear for the creating community for sure, but ur voice is necessary. Ur story will resonate with ppl, and those who choose to use their time to tear it down obviously have nothing else better to do

DanitheCarutor

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) Oh yeah, totally! People's feelings are super valid, and someone writing sensitive content should be open to listening to other people. I'm just talking about the extremists who think anything remotely uncomfortable shouldn't exist. Like, no.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Man, nowadays, people just throw shit and false accusations and all the rest at people because they don't like them and their stuff. They're truly pathetic.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I used to be so scared of a certain chapter in my comic bc its so violent at one point. It kept me up at night bc of these take down campaigns were a such a thing. But then i remember the content i enjoyed that inspired my own and im like Aint no one cancelling FMA for the niina part!

I mean unless its a topic that's super insensitive to a group or people/topic, which i know you're handling with sensitivity and grace, i wouldn't stop

carcarchu

this is a little bit sensitive so i'm going to put it in a spoiler there was another incident where an author received constant messages to kill themselves for writing gls when they did not at that time identify as a woman but then the author later did a whole comic about how how complicated her relationship with her own gender and sexuality was and that she de-transitioned and now once again considered herself to be both cis and lesbian and all those comments about her needing to kill herself for writing gl were so narrow-minded because you can never really know an author's situation if you aren't in their shoes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's "gl"?

DanitheCarutor

Lol yeah, I do get worried a lot, especially about the upcoming chapters. Although that's not going to stop me from pushing forward, and telling the story how I want to tell it. If my online presence is murdered in the process, at least it will die for a good cause... at least good for me because I'll be venting everything out.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whhhh!!! People just gettin into ppls business damn. That's horrible

carcarchu

girl's love

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

GIrl's love?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I def see ur story as a personal one with healing and building that will resonate with others Dani. And i think that's very important

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's that?

carcarchu

stories about girls loving girls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a genre that focuses on romantic relationships between girls ye

carcarchu

i really got chills reading that author's comic about her identity especially having seen those comments numerous times on her other comics

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

There was a similar incident except it was with an artist by the name of Zamii for supposedly drawing Steven Universe characters too thin (Yes, she did attempt suicide in the end, though she didn't succeed in her attempt).

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is...is she okay now?

oh my god Page

I remembered that

The SU writers had to step in

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh rip sadly I remember that as well

carcarchu

i think she's doing ok! i'm not sure if that particular comic is still up but i can dm u it if u want shadow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yep! Not just the writers, even an executive producer.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes please carcarchu

And I think Rebecca sugar stepped in too? Not sure about that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Hopefully this serves as a reminder for all of us to have each others backs in such situations wow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Another incident was in the Undertale fandom I think. One person gave a cookie to an artist at a convention they didn't like because of the ships they were doing. They author was suspicious, so, they cracked open the cookie. It was filled with needles.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHYYYYYYY

carcarchu

oh my god i remember that page, what a horror story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

........what the FUCK

carcarchu

always be careful about accepting food from events like that

DanitheCarutor

Geez, the thing about the GL author is sad... yet not surprising, and it's sad that I'm not surprised. @FeatherNotes(Krispy) Thank you so much! I went into my comic expecting absolutely no one would like it, so if it resonates with even one person that would be the best surprise. TvT

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yee haw I love solidarity

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, never accept food/drinks from strangers, including "fans"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As someone who bakes and deals with food....that is horrifying

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah rip that's horrifying

carcarchu

if it's packaged food like candy it should be safe, but still be careful if u have reason to be suspicious at all

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remember, if you're suspicious, make them eat it too >:)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgllol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

And lace it with cyanide.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gosh authours need content warning from readers it seems yikes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Better safe than sorry.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Still not safe to have them eat it too lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, hey, better second degree murder than dead.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can think of some.... ways around that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"I'm alergic to needles"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Give it to their friend

>:)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Give it to their spouse.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And if it’s poison they’ll go down knowing they did it

Make a marvel villain

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

They're called "Widower".

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Page you and I have like minds

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Indeed we do.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not comfortable with that -- like, what if their friend or spouse is being abused by them and is seeking to get out of that relationship

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...This conversation is freaking amazing And I’ve never done individual page warnings for my comic - never felt it necessary. Maybe someday someone will yell at me about it, but... meh. The comic never goes into the really deep dark potentially-controversial stuff. So maybe it won’t be an issue. Back to catching up on all of this, WOW.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god it would be a complicated meSS(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh god okay NO DONT GIVE IT TO THEIR SPOUSE

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It doesn't matter. They must die for our agenda.

Morality? Pft.

If they're dead, they're no longer in the relationship.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I mean @LadyLazuli (Phantomarine) your story is really riveting But I’m not sure if you need warnings? I mean your story deals with...death

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see? Widower solves everything.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) I’m not sure! Someone tagged it with ‘limb loss’ elsewhere, which is debatable, haha. It’s something I would almost want others to tag. Sometimes I can’t stretch my mind far enough to imagine a page needing a trigger warning.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wow...the more you learn, huh.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yes- those specific type tags are always going to be elusive to keep track of- ur general rating is just what ur story needs

Def wanna point out too that TV ratings and warnings are what i go by and the most helpful to me as a reader and creator. Also video game warnings too are good to look at if people ever need examples of how to rate comics!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yep, ratings are all I need too. In my ‘about’ page I described my comic as “no darker than the darkest stuff in Harry Potter,” but I’m sure someone would still find something extremely dark in that, so... SHRUG

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Does anyone know of any of the big name comics that put trigger warnings or whatnot in their work? I dont read marvel/dc/etc so ive never seen if they took to rating their comics with any type of warnings?

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do have kids reading so I want the parents to feel comfortable

DanitheCarutor

Is it weird that I rated my comic based on the level of nudity and lack of sex? Like, "Okay, these people are really naked but not in a sexy way, what is the rating for that?"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm thinking about snot girl rn and idk if their creators do that tbh other than marketed towards adults

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I read a couple of more-intense things from Image Comics and I’ve never seen any trigger warnings there either

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm I’m not sure I remember reading Hellboy and not seeing any trigger warnings

carcarchu

krispy, the only time i can recall it is when i read Bradherley's Coach and that was actually put there by the translation team and not the author himself but i will say that the warning was extremely warranted with that one because i consider myself pretty desensitized to traumatic content but even this one really got me with each chapter being traumatic in it's own unique way

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Do they have ratings on the backs of the books like some manga?

Oh wow ty translation team

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Probably! I’m not sure if DarkHorse comics does it but they do have things like nudity and...portrayals of graphic death

carcarchu

if u read it on a website there is some degree of tagging for the content but i don't think that alone could have accurately prepared someone for what the comic explored

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think its clear that by these examples we're all already doing better at being responsible for the content we share and produce.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I hope so I wonder if those big name comics received flak about not having trigger warnings

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I wonder about that too tbh

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im sure to a degree? But no where near an indie creator would

Which is a whole other topic

carcarchu

i for one would love more tagging options for webcomics

makes it easier to find whatever niche content you're into!

genres alone just dont do it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

That could work But there’s also a price to pay; less chance to get readers too

carcarchu

why is it less of a chance to get readers?

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I myself am looking at my Punisher comics, and there's no warnings anywhere, but i feel with an antihero like the Punisher, you go in expecting the gore and violence

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm....I guess my fear is that it’s a double edged sword carcarchu On one hand you can attract the readers you want But on the other hand you can also...possibly drive away readers who are mildly curious Some people need time to get invested in a story

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess some people will just avoid some tags no-questions-asked. Hopefully it’s the small minority that the trigger warning will actually help (in terms of anxiety) and not someone who’s writing off the trigger as problematic and will go on a tirade warning other readers about it. I know it goes both ways

carcarchu

oh i wasn't talking about trigger content tagging specifically

i was talking about stuff like being able to tag for example "witches" or "animals" or "music" whatever is a theme in your comic(edited)

guess it wasnt a logical throughline made sense in my head

eli [a winged tale]

I was looking for a universal way to show trigger warnings and came across this article. https://medium.com/@UntoNuggan/trigger-warnings-101-a-beginners-guide-e9fc90c6ba0a I guess for mine I’m thinking to add body horror and violence the more we go through the story... I do like the part about putting the informed consent power back to the reader’s hands

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I put both Fantasy Violence and Alcohol Use as general warnings for my comic. Alcohol is treated in a complex manner in CoR, both in a humorous light and as a way to cope, but I know there are a lot of folks that are triggered by the presence of alcohol.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I will be putting trigger warning in my comic but Ive wanted to write about mental health allegories for a long time as a personal self reflection.

I started to feel braver after seeing other creators boldly write about mental health topics in their comics.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whispers the webcomic library is an excellent source and tool to find/avoid tags in comics

Luma does an excellent job with archiving the stories there and i hope yall have applied to have ur comics there too!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Yes I watch Webcomic library on Twitter, Luma does such a good job curating comics(edited)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same! Highly recommended

carcarchu

i think i follow it on twitter but i don't keep up with it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They did these tags for my comic(edited)

carcarchu

maybe i should change that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Super dedicated and a very great resource for webcomics!!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got these! I originally only put down 'limb loss - leg' but 'limb loss - arm' popped up too, and I'm like "You know... that's kinda true." It's a really good resource!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OOoh I should check it out

Webcomic library, right?

carcarchu

what's the difference between independent! and independent

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...that's a good question and I don't know the answer, haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

“Eventual LGBTQ” yes

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I AGREE!! I'm on Webcomic Library too. Mine is tagged as Mobility Aids since Nocturne uses a cane to walk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

hmmm how do you add your webcomic onto there?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I went thru the process like

you send an email to luma/webcomic libary with a submission form

and she'll add it for u with the tags that are relelated to your comic

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Luma always puts up submission posts too Check out their tumblr/twitter!

DanitheCarutor

I can't imagine how much time it takes Luma to go through all those webcomics! These are the tags they put for mine:(edited)

They've kept it up pretty well in spite of it not being their cup of tea. The only thing I was ever iffy on was the 'sexual nudity' tag since I didn't intend for that but for the nudity to be uncomfortable/awkward, and I don't like the idea of people going into my comic for sexual arousal, but on well. To each their own, also it may be a presentation mistake on my part.

It's funny because I didn't think about one of my MCs being disabled until seeing this, I had to think for a moment before realizing "Oh yeah, I guess ocular albinism is considered a disability."

Kind of an embarrassing realization on my part.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooo that's a lot of tags

this from my comic

DanitheCarutor

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) Here is the submission template if you're interested. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q48tZquhmNoGY_lcsE8FkByF614EISk_Pf3YoQKXYWA/edit?usp=sharing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

probably not much is tagged since lmao it's 2 chapters in

DanitheCarutor

Haaaah yeah, my comic has a lot of... stuff. It'll probably get even bigger once the next two chapters are finished, if Luma is willing to go through them.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ahhh thank you Time to submit

honestly I don't think there'll be a lot for my webcomic, since I just started lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

All a good resource regardless! And a good place to find comics to read!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

fair enough! Also...uhh....

what's nsfw text?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

like, not safe for work things being talked about in the text of the comic typically sex stuff i imagine

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

or swearing lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oh god

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

get ready for a rideeeee

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

since someone saying "violence and gore" in the text wouldn't really count as NSFW lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

on my sailor ship lolol

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, NSFW text is swearing, slurs, discussion of NSFW subjects, sexual language I'm guessing. In my case it's the former three, at least I assume as much.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

..........ohhhh boy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mine is just my characters speaking without filter

lol

at least for the begining lolol

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

but yeah to me the limit for "what to warn people about" is generally dependent on the platform

those are my tags on archive binge

those are my tags on webcomic library (admittedly a bit out of date)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

lord almighty(edited)

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

on comic fury the only tag I have is high violence (with no nudity, sexual content, or swearing)

on tapas it's a page-by-page thing so I basically add the tag whenever there's blood on-screen

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Nsfw is not swearing like bitch, shit fuck Its more slurs i do believe

Also forgive me for swearing on main lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OH DANI SAID IT ALREADY

So yes, what dani said

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yeah I was wondering how deep into curse/slur territory it’d have to go

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gjs has swearing in it but its sailor mouth stuff, not slurs

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I’ve got fantasy slurs and I drop those RARELY because they still make me feel weird, haha

Dunno if I could ever commit to IRL ones in anything I do

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, I imagine if swears did count it would be how they're used, like if they were said in a derogatory statement and/or bullying.

But yeah, slurs, definitely. Haaaah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I don't think I could ever write about racial slurs either. The only touchy topics I will ever write are those I have experienced. Never experienced true racism so if I wrote about it I would feel like I'm faking knowledge of a huge and personal issue for other people

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same. I leave that to people who can write about it better. Any discrimination I have in my stories is manufactured by the fantasy world and its own unique circumstances. I have some influence from real-world discrimination, but it's its own thing.

DanitheCarutor

Ah but slurs aren't just race, there are also slurs for gender and sexuality. (The -cough- 'T' and 'F' word.)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah... racial slurs make me uncomfortable, but depends with the fantasy slurs, that could be creative if it's done to show the social issues of that world?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like even if you're only using fantasy slurs (speaking as someone whose comic has a use of a fantasy slur...), you need good understanding of what it's like to be on the receiving end of a slur IRL. This isn't to say "you need [this qualification] to be Allowed to use slurs in your fictional work!" but more like, how to make it resonate with the readers in the right ways, how to make it not gratuitous, etc.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm still learning myself. Like, I do have some experience dealing with racism toward me, but 1) it's nothing compared to the truly horrific stuff out there, and 2) even on comparable "levels" my experience could be very, very different from someone else's. All we can do is keep trying, keep learning.

Keep listening.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd had a fair deal of racism and microagression being a native in the US for so long

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

exactly, like I experienced childhood racism about my cultural upbringing. But it's different for other people.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's something that lmao won't go away but ye we have some different perspectives on how we can go about handling it

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

When I read a work or watch a film, I can tell if the creator has researched well, if it's racism similar to my experiences. It doesn't matter their background. But it'd be a nicer bonus if this came from a POC creator.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, based on that I'm probably not the best person to have characters using slurs. While the slur present is gender based, I have a complicated relationship with... everything that isn't white/cis/het. I'm a mixed race (mom's side(very white passing): German Jewish, black Irish, Scottish, Native American. Dad's side: Native American, Spanish, Mexican.), my mom was raised in a church in a tiny town that was totally against non-white people and race mixing, according to her when I was born people would come to the hospital to gawk at me. I've never been called a slur maliciously, but casually and I never noticed it until I was older after everyone naturally stopped. Every experience and memory I have of slurs has been of the "yikes!", "Woah, you really said that." variety, so I kind of project that energy a little bit in my comic. But in the form of a very yikes casually transphobic character.

For clarity on the cis/het thing, my family was also extremely bigoted but would hide it under casual language, so it never sounded queerphobic until you process what they said.

Not related to me, but I understand needing to experience racism to write it, although I think it can still be accomplished well if the person is empathetic and does a ton of research. Kinda like anything else sensitive, you just need to be really educated on the subject.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with you Dani. Sadly some creators just don't have that empathy and want to write a fantasy token character. I had awkward story conversations before on race. "what do you think about this ambiguous Asian character? I'm thinking of a Japanese name, sounds Asian enough?" I always cringe inside(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually bring in other people to write about those things I haven't experienced. Friends, generous volunteers, etc.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think it's 100% OK to write about things you haven't experienced. I don't think J.K. Rowling experienced being an adolescent male chosen one in a magical college, but she still wrote about it...and made a Hell of a lot of money.

DanitheCarutor

Lol that's why I added in doing research, which I think brainstorming with experienced people counts, you're still educating yourself. I agree with everyone on experience being preferred, although I am on the anti-censorship side with art and storytelling, no matter how cringe it is.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ofc i think it's okay, but I personally don't feel comfortable doing it

i even feel a little weird writing male characters

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If we can only write ourselves and our experiences, we're plain not good writers.

That's my view on the matter.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Again, I don't think any of us is advocating Necessary Qualifications To Even Attempt. This is a much more nuanced topic

I've never been a tall beefy dude, but that's what my MC is.

Never been a parent, but I write parents.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, "make the effort to write this well" is very different from "don't write this"

And there's plenty of people criticizing JKR for how she handles specific topics...

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeah....

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Including me.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

JKR is probably not a good example to bring up as a positive example for this topic, simply because of the issues that can REALLY distract from why she's being used as an example.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like writing male character more often since I'm less stressed about writing the opposite gender, I know it's my comfort zone. I based some of the boys on my guy friends and have fun with the story. Though I'm making a difference by insisting on adding women more and pushing for strength and vulnerability.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

J.K. turned out to be lacking a few brain-cells, but my point is that you can very easily write foreign experiences; every good writer does that all the time (as you all do yourselves!) and I think that extends to writing characters no matter the colour of their skin, sexuality, or gender identity.

DanitheCarutor

True, I haven't seen gatekeeping here, I'm just giving my thoughts on it. A while back on another server I read a conversation where some people were dissing the person who made Magical Boy on Tapas because they're not trans, even though they did a lot of research beforehand. I was kind of reflecting that, but I also empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with people who've never experienced a certain form of oppression writing about it.

Pff I've never been a janitor, but dang it! You can't stop me from having a janitor character!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Janitors are the coolest guys, I'm telling ye.

Most chill people in the land.

B'ys, they can get along with anyone, I swear.

DanitheCarutor

They're like real life superheroes.

Deo101 [Millennium]

We're not saying not to write other skin tones, gender, etc. Just to be sensitive about it and aware that you can't extrapolate someone else's life experiences from your own, you have to ask

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

there's a difference between writing a janitor and writing a touchy topic like racism. Anyways, even if I was writing a janitor I'd do a ton of research on the job

Deo101 [Millennium]

Sorry I use a cane and I can tell when people didn't ask someone who uses a cane what it's like. It goes the same for a lot of things

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm not saying you are saying that! Simply addressing something I've encountered before.

I've used a cane before, though temporarily. It was...a pain in the ass, honestly.

Well, more like a pain in my leg. And my arm.

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Sorry, I was joking since Keii was talking about writing muscular guys and parents. It would be sad if I didn't know the difference between racism and an occupation. Lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In any case, I don't think that writing somebody of an ethnic minority necessitates much on its own. Delving into racial issues, sure, yeah that requires a lot, but I wouldn't say that of writing the character itself.

I'd say the same of sexuality and gender identity if you're not delving into the respective issues thereof. If you know what you're doing, i don't think there's too much to it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Page, Rambler Extraordinaire! Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us are saying. There is a difference between writing a character who's [this identity] vs writing a story that's all about exploring that identity.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

The latter requires a lot more research, agreed.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

oh i know @DanitheCarutor , you write a lot of lgbt characters after all. just adding my thoughts, not diagreeing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"If you know what you're doing" is the tricky part though

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Well, that's not that difficult in most cases. There is a sea of available literature.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's.... the problem of marginalized folks pointing out concerns in a work, and non-marginalized people dismissing their concerns because they don't see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's also really easy to ask a person for their real life experience

People are usually, in my experience, more than willing to take some time and answer a few questions.

DanitheCarutor

On the Magical Boy thing, like I said, it wasn't you all, it was people on a different server and I wanted to bring it up since it's related to the topic. To do a more serious comparison, I've never had psychosis or schizophrenia but I'm writing a character like that. I did a lot of research beforehand though, like, A LOT.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like for disabilities it's very easily to find all kinds of Medical information, but almost no first hand experience is available. So what happens is people are very accurate medically, but then extrapolate what living like that is like and still end up with a disengenuous story

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Surely, there's available literature on the subject? I'm sure that I could find some.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And Dani, same with me and schizophrenia. It's for a future comic, but I've been researching it and interviewing people for years now to be sure I get a story that would at the very least not hurt them

I mean I would think a better resource would be YouTubers with those things, actually.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For a lot of topics, it's easier to find a firsthand experiencer willing to talk to you than to find some existing literature on the exact thing you didn't know you needed

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like My condition is very rare and the best you could find on it for firsthand experience is like. A forum that's super old and inactive

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still remember one review where the person said "I have a certain disability, and I'm sure this author doesn't have it -- but they know someone who does -- because they're describing the visible symptoms with uncanny accuracy, but are guessing all wrong about how it feels/how it affects your life in invisible ways."

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a huge pitfall, I feel. There can be a big sensitive thing that you aren't even aware is a thing; therefore, you don't think to do any research on that facet.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's really easy to make a post on social media like "hey can I interview people with ___ for a writing project?"

DanitheCarutor

Openness depends on the topic. It's really hard getting people's experiences with certain mental illnesses, also the small number of people suffering from it. I had a really hard time finding people willing to talk about certain things, especially professionals since they usually don't want to talk to you without paying money for it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

^ That's also a good point.

Deo101 [Millennium]

That's true

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think we're going back to the purity thing. You can't expect someone to truly represent the "invisible ways" it affects you very well considering they're...invisible.

Deo101 [Millennium]

You can ask

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I would definitely recommend trying to reach out to people with firsthand experience, and seeing if that's an option.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I've been able to shoot emails off to professors before for questions. They're usually happy to answer a question or two.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is not at all like the purity thing IMO.

DanitheCarutor

A decent resource I found was a mental health forum, you have to get accepted to join, but it's basically everyone talking about their experiences with being mentally ill or being a volunteer for mental health care centers. Unfortunately there aren't any psychologists on the forum... Just nurses and caregivers on the non-ill side.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Again, there's a spectrum here...there's all kinds of possibilities between "how dare your extensive research have a single imperfection" and "wow, you didn't even try".

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, and it's not even a single lane spectrum! It's very complex and multifaceted/multilayered

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And we're talking about this for marginalized people, but it can apply to any group/culture/situation you're not part of -- just look at any story where a European writer has an American character drive across the US in a couple hours

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Lmaoooo

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Or americans write Germans getting lost in their woods.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, multilayered? How so? It's a spectrum from "B'y, you're writing about a black man in the 1700s being exalted in America" to "Why am I reading this ethnic studies textbook?"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Naw mate, pick a direction and you‘ll find a street or at least marked trail in half an hour.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Okay, I can't answer that without draining my energy reserve for the next 20 weeks

DanitheCarutor

Lmao! As dumb as it sounds, something like that can also apply to animals. Like the thing Disney did with lemmings, and how Jaws portrayed sharks which caused this spike in shark hunting because everyone thought they were these monsters.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Would it be possible to summarize?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

We've talked about a bunch of different aspects already -- like, how well did you research the medical symptoms vs. how well did you represent the day-to-day experience

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No (at least for me), precisely because it's so complex and multilayered.

RebelVampire

This is a good convo and I am happy everyone has remained civil. That being said, I kind of feel it's gone a bit off-topic for an extended time regarding this week's question

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's hard to know what's worth a mature tag or not when even the websites themselves are vague. I started off with a character having the trait of cursing a lot, but then dropped that as i became paranoid of wts content guidelines

but i've gotten a decent audience since then and wts hasn't deleted my pages or anything so(edited)

i have no idea what the line is

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons is extra mysterious

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I host my own stuff, so I just put warnings up when a specific storyline is going to be more intense than the comic's average

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

because their comment system will auto censor words like "vague" (it becomes "***ue" or something like that) so you'd think they really don't want ANY cursing?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yes! that has happened to me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Su***ious

Is one I see a lot

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

someone commented "sperm" on my pages once so i know wt doesn't censor that at least

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...is that why the kids these days are just saying "sus" now

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

******in's Creed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i don't understand what is the swear in suspicious?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

It's a racial slur in some regions

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ohhhh

i know what you mean

yeah rip

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

An auto-censor like that just makes a normal discussion forum seem 100x more scandalous/insulting than it actually is...

Deo101 [Millennium]

I got used to talking around then from mmo games ahahaha

Those chats that squelch you if you say one curse or something close to it by accident

But! On topic, I think asking whether something is too mature is a good idea, having a kind of beta audience or sensitivity reader kind of thing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think it's fine to make your own judgment calls as long as you're consistent, so readers know the same things will be reliably warned for

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

a beta reader wouldn't neccessarily know more about wt than me though

when it comes to blurry content guidelines that is

might help with mature or triggering content

because your tolerance might be different from other people's

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh I mean like "hmmm I think this is a bit much. Do you think this is a bit much?"

And they go "na this seems like pg 13 to me." Or "hmmm I think it could probably freak someone out you might wanna lightly warn."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's a blurry line because sometimes an arm getting ripped off stylishly is less triggering than a realistic depiction of like, a fingernail being ripped off

just gotta go by feeling, i suppose

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yep

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I agree that this is a case where there's no reason to think a beta reader has better judgment than you have yourself

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yeah my friends are all like me

DanitheCarutor

WTs is weird. I used to have my comic up there totally uncensored, they featured it on the front page for about a month, but when someone flagged the nudity they wouldn't put the pages back up. Like... you think they would have known already? The nude scene is within the first 20 pages.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and don't think much of gore and swearing and such

fuck dani don't say that you're making me paranoid again

RebelVampire

Classic it only takes one person to ruin something for everyone else

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) From what I've seen of your nude scenes, I don't think anyone will really notice. I didn't even notice until you brought it up one time on here... or maybe it was in the Webcomic Updates server.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i hope so but as rebel said only takes one staff member

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Can i just chime in to say that the auto censoring with what y'all have said about WT really turns me off from that platform. Not into a site having that power, regardless of who uses it. It's like we said here, be responsible with your work with tags, but that extra hand in the pot makes me think of tumblr style censors and im not a fan.

Does tapas do that too?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Webtoon doesn't really have tags, it just has a toggle for a series being mature

They both do

So they don't get removed from app stores

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ye i guessed as much

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Tapas has this feature that lets creators tag individual episodes as mature. BUT there is an additional layer -- if your comic is too mature even with the mature tag, they're forced to hide it from their iOS app, due to Fruit Company regulations.

DanitheCarutor

WT is trash, and the reader base is made up of children, don't go there! Tapas is pretty alright, they're fine with my comic being uncensored there, and they don't censor comments.

Yeah, there's what Keii said about the Apple app too.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's up to Fruit Company to determine whether it's too mature or not. (Mine is too mature because of body hair, and I was told they'd put it back on the app if I erased the body hair in a specific episode)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still not a fan of that kind of censorship. And i agree with dani

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ohh yeah i remember that body hair thing kei

DanitheCarutor

Oh crap, were we not supposed to name drop the app?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Excuse me body hair

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons on the other hand will straight up remove any too mature episodes across all of their platform...s (site, iOS, android) if Google says "this is too mature"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think it's censorship, it's more not allowing certain things on your platform

They're not saying you can't make it just that you can't post it there

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It is censorship U cant post ur piece in its intended form

Like....body hair Wtf

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think that depends on how you define censorship

In any case, it's definitely not ideal.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That is so .... Like Way to show what standards they want

DanitheCarutor

Gah the body hair thing. Thinking about it, I never got contacted by Tapas about my comic's mature content, but they probably knew trying to censor it would be a lost cause. Lol They probably just threw straight off the app.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That's horrible Dani

DanitheCarutor

Naah, I don't mind. It's still allowed on the desktop site, and that's the only version I use so it's like nothing ever happened.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still a gross move on their part. Not enthused with the passion to appease app stores with removing content that isn't 'suitable', but that is a diff convo.

DanitheCarutor

As one last derailing bit, if you're ever looking for a hosting site, Comicfury is the best for mature and adult work. They don't censor ANYTHING! Except hate-speech.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh i keep seeing more and more talk about that! Can i ask u more about it in shop talk?

DanitheCarutor

Sure, go ahead! I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Wow

Just caught up

Back to the warnings thing...(edited)

In my experience, there are certain reasonable leaps in seriousness in comics, and other times when it appears jarring and out of nowhere, but in that case, I think it's simply bad writing, unless of course, it's a genre like horror.

But I think an author deciding to put content warnings should be up to the author on a case by case basis.

There are simply too many variables to come up with specific ground rules

As an example, I have a scene later on in my comic where a child dies. I don't show how it happens, but I was planning on showing the body afterwards. Nothing too gruesome, but definitely some broken bones. And I have been told completely opposite things, that it should be okay because I'm not showing the actual death, and on the other side, that showing the body at all is terrible, and I shouldn't do it. My concern is... If I don't show the body, how will the readers know that the child is dead? And how will I show the reactions of the other characters? It's just too complicated and specific of an issue to rely on general guidelines.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'ys, the real answer is to stop writing webcomics altogether! I'm telling ye! no webcomic, no problem!

I mean, sure, we'll be bereft of artistic output and dreams will be crushed...but hey, less stuff to do. Silver lining.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what you mean most of us has made somewhat a living doing comics lol(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, I want to make comics so uhhhhh???

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Aw...That sounds sad but depends how the body is presented? I mean I've seen mystery games with afew dead characters? Not a child yet.(edited)

Sometimes I've seen Anime do a light censorship by showing a bloodied child's shoe or gloves, or an arm but it can be disturbing(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It's just that... dead children is a sensitive topic

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, a limp arm is what I often see

DanitheCarutor

I think it's because showing dead children is considered taboo? Like some games where you can kill other characters won't give you the ability to kill children, as well as movies that show character deaths won't show a child's death. It might be too insensitive for some people because children are innocent, and many people have had/are having kids, so showing them might be extra upsetting? At least that's what I assume is the reason behind someone saying not to show the child's death.

Ah, didn't notice Cronaj already said it in much fewer words.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Ah yes, that reminds me that there are places where I put up different warnings than what the comic has - my side stories. Since my side stories are often ways for me to explore different styles of storytelling than the comic proper, they can often have different themes. Off the top of my head - one side story I wrote had a warning for cussing, one had a warning for descriptions of violence against a child, and one had a warning for getting in a bit deep into a character's PTSD. (oddly enough, both of those latter warnings were in reference to the same character, just with a time gap of a few years. though the PTSD in the one story involved a completely different event than the violence depicted in the other story. pejiba's had it rough)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) , @Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) , I was making a joke. :p

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I think the worst thing I'm going to show visually is a dead body and the whole story is about there being a dead body so I don't feel the need for any additional internal content warnings. I think my rule of thumb is just not to show anything that would be more shocking or upsetting than the premise of the comic would have you expect, and to have all warnings at the outset.

I agree with snuffysam's approach to separating darker and scarier content into side stories with their own content warnings or at least I would take a similar approach myself. It's okay to make stories that depict difficult topics but I think it's better not to disrupt the flow of a more lighthearted story if it can be avoided. Exploring difficult topics outside of the main story is a good solution to that

sagaholmgaard

I put a content warning the first time there was some violence and blood in my comic, since the previous pages had been mostly cute so I figured it was warranted. I'm coming up to the second time something potentially triggering happens- a guy gets killed 'on screen', but I don't think it's rendered in a worse way than the first time so I'm considering whether it's good to warn every time a scene like this comes up or if the first warning is enough to readers to have opted out if they dont want that sort of content

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I had a read-up on age ratings and found out Nyx+Nyssa would fall under PEGI-16 due to realistic violence towards human characters, and will simply stick a 16+ sign into the corner of my page, which links to a conscience explanation why.

Desnik

So recently I've joined a writer's group and they ask people to stick warnings upfront so that readers can opt out of reading something that will upset them. I've found that it's helpful to warn for things that cause certain phobias, religious criticism, and minority experiences depicted w/o a sensitivity reader's guidance. I would also warn for drugs/alcohol usage since reading about that kind of experience can be a trigger for addictions.

I don't tend to write about anything super visceral but when reading I know I appreciate warnings about certain types of gore or violence

I think it's beneficial to be extremely specific with tags because for some reason YA-rated stuff can be very violent (so that makes age-based ratings completely nonsensical). Also not every story is going to treat serious issues with the same gravity so I think it's helpful to mention if some aspect is being treated in a melodramatic/unrealistic manner on purpose.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Like a standard comic might take say... 10 pages or more. Webtoon tends to shorten this roughly by half. Or by the 3rd or 4th episode, that major plot point happens.(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel "have a natural flow" is easier said than done, and also can mean very different things for different stories, and even different readers responding to one story.

(Maybe we should move this to shop talk as it's not relevant to this week's topic?)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oh this is in shop talk? ok, I thought creator babble was relevant to this.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Nah, creator babble, if I understand it correctly, is specifically for weekly questions. This week's question is about content warnings

AntiBunny

My story is heavily inspired by film noir, so I think the occasional burst of violence should be expected.

[shadowsong26x]

EPIX/Rise of Skywalker Reaction Post

So, I got back from seeing EPIX this morning, and I figured I should get all my thoughts down!

Everything spoilery is behind a cut, and this post is also tagged with the spoiler tags I’ve listed here. If you want me to add any additional tags, let me know and I will to this and any future EPIX posts.

Okay, so, before I really get into this, I should mention two relevant contextual things that probably strongly impacted my feelings on this movie.

I’m not super-invested in the sequel trilogy. I love (most of) the characters, I’m not really into the story that’s being told with them.

Given where TLJ left us, I went into the theatre expecting something between A Trainwreck with Some Delightful Moments and A Delightful Trainwreck. Basically, it was going to be a Hot Mess and I knew it, but I was pretty sure there was going to be something to love, even if the film as a whole didn’t delight me (which, honestly, is even where I stand with TLJ, which remains my least favorite film of the series). And, you know what? I got exactly that. A Sometimes-Delightful Trainwreck. I’d say it’s even towards the upper end of that Delightfulness scale.

All right, moving on to actual thoughts. I’m trying to focus on the positive here, mostly because I did overall enjoy this movie, but I also had some Problems with it.

I’m gonna talk about Kylo Ren first, mostly because I want to get this out of the way. I will say that--when I first saw TFA, I thought I could be interested in this character. I thought they were gonna maybe go the burnt-out gifted kid route with him, which would be hella interesting to explore for the child of Heroes like Han and Leia, and the Legacy he had to live up to. Obviously, they didn’t, and while the direction they went is certainly topical, it’s not super engaging, at least to me. I know it is to some people, and far be it from me to harsh anyone’s squee, but he basically doesn’t do anything for me. I personally don’t find him particularly interesting or intimidating.

Basically, I don’t particularly care about Kylo Ren. (I don’t know if I’m quite at the point where, as my roommate puts it, I aggressively Do Not Care, but the Not Caring is definitely a thing.)

Anyway, that disclaimer aside--his arc was okay, I guess? I mean...I think my general feelings on the subject are not that it felt phoned-in, exactly, but that it was mostly there because the writers thought it should be there, rather than it flowing organically from the character(s) involved. It also felt rushed, but that goes back to a problem with the movie as a whole that I will get into later in this post. But, given that, the actual beats that were involved in said arc I thought were effectively done. The bit with Han in the wreckage, in particular, was nice.

As for that Kiss though.

...I mean. I’m actually kind of pleased that the end of the film left the romantic threads dangling? It gave me plenty of OT3 feels (though I felt like, especially in the first third or so, the film was leaning more towards Rey/Poe and Finn/Rose, but there was some later stuff that seemed to hint at the full OT3 with a question mark on where Rose stands.)

But I do have a problem with the fact that the only on-screen kiss between Major Characters was between Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. That being said, I can backfill/justify it in that...you know how some people headcanon that Luke’s initial crush on Leia was some sort of “There is a Connection Here that I Cannot Name and it’s probably supposed to be Romantic given our ages and genders and presumed lack of other relationship so let’s go with that?” Between something like that and the fact that he just gave up his life for her in a very literal way (side note: the Force has always been New Powers as the Plot Demands; but the healing thing was a) if not actually in a canon novel at least strongly implied and b) ALL OVER fanon so even if I had a problem with Random Force Powers suddenly occurring I wouldn’t have an issue with this one; the Force Diad thing was ~handwave plot device~ sure fine whatever). ...anyway, given all of that, I can backfill it to a way where I don’t hate it (i.e., if he’d lived, I don’t think it would’ve been followed up on very much/they would’ve settled into a non-romantic relationship of some kind, whatever that might’ve been). Except that it’s the only one, which kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Then again, he did immediately die, so...yeah, I can live with this. I don’t like it, and I don’t think I ever will like it, but I don’t hate it either and it’s not a dealbreaker for me.

Most of the other problems I have with this film come down to structure and pacing. In that, thanks to where TLJ left us, this move had to do so much to bring the story to any kind of cohesive end, and not enough time to do it in. Trying to squeeze too much plot into too small a space.

(I actually had the same problem with ROTS initially--although that was more due to the PT having pacing issues as its Primary Narrative Flaw; TPM was way too slow; AOTC actually had good internal pacing but couldn’t quite make up for it; and then ROTS was as a consequence of that really rushed. Meanwhile, with the ST, I feel like the writers are relying on “it’s all there in the manual” a little too much, so not really...trying as hard, if that makes sense? To make it all connect within the film, I mean, as opposed to depending on people going into other/outside/supplemental material to connect the dots (still not as bad as the Prisoner of Azkaban movie on that front, but it’s still Bad; and, like, all film versions of novels leave some stuff out, just look at the LOTR films; but POA left out a key plot point and that--is a rant for another post. Back to EPIX). It’ll be interesting to see what kind of deleted scenes come out, or if it’ll grow on me in future watchings. Not that it’ll ever become a favorite, I don’t think, but it might improve in my eyes.)

Anyway, basically, a lot of this felt rushed or like...introduced but not really addressed/wrapped up in any kind of satisfactory fashion? Kylo Ren’s arc in particular, as I’ve mentioned before, plus the Threepio stuff felt rushed and non-consequential, and also with Rey’s arc to an extent (it...again, all the beats worked for me/I thought it was fairly effective, but it really needed two movies to pay off as well as it could have). ...I mean, there are more plot threads I could probably mention here, but those are the three that stuck out the most.

Also, this movie needed More Rose :( I LOVE HER and she was barely here!!!!!

Another thing I would’ve liked to see is...okay, I really liked the Overlapping Voices bit, but it would’ve been nice to have more Presence from the ghosts? Like...there’s a bit at the end of season 1 of Sailor Moon where she’s in the Final Battle, the other four have died (or just been left behind, if you’re watching the English dub), and their ghosts show up and place their hands on hers and lend her their strength? A visual cue like that would’ve been great and helped the arc feel more complete. Especially since Palpatine had all of his predecessors/Sith ghosts backing him in a more visible fashion. But, then again, that’s a Personal Taste thing and while it would’ve, IMO, made that moment better, not having it doesn’t make it worse, if that makes sense?

(Also, the credits moved too fast for me to track, but I definitely saw Qui-Gon Jinn listed, though I don’t recall hearing him, and I definitely recognized Anakin/Hayden Christensen and Mace/Samuel L. Jackson and Obi-Wan/Ewan McGreggor (and Alec Guinness I’m pretty sure?) and obvs. Yoda/Frank Oz when actually listening, but I couldn’t identify the other voices--anyone have the full list? Was Ahsoka and/or Kanan and/or Ezra involved, or was it restricted to movie-only Jedi?)

But...yeah. Apart from the Kiss being very ....:/ for me, most of my identifiable problems with the film is stuff like this.

I think the other thing I want to talk about in detail is the Rey Palpatine reveal.

So, up until this movie, I was actually in my corner flying my tiny but determined Rey Kenobi flag, and the more I think about it, the more I like Rey Palpatine for some of the same reasons? Like...I don’t remember everything I’d thought through about Rey Kenobi, but it had to do with the cyclical nature of Star Wars, and bringing it back where it started--and we get that with Rey Palpatine, in a nice arc, healing some of the damage her grandfather did, both to this family and to the galaxy as a whole.

That being said--those of you who know me and my fic projects know I’ve been writing a child (daughter) for Palpatine for quite some time now, and I have no intention of stopping, lol. Am I going to take this/Lavinia’s (presumably) half-brother into account in future projects? ...probably not. But I am looking forward to/hoping we get a novel or something about him and Rey’s mother. Because that is actually a story I’m interested in--why canon!Palpatine chose to have a kid, and how said kid managed to break away and got to this point. [...y’know, I actually think Rey Kenobi’s background/thread of descent would be less interesting to me? Since I subscribe to the idea that a) Korkie Kryze is Obi-Wan’s biological son; and b) Obi-Wan had many Friends With Benefits throughout the galaxy and figuring out exactly which one Rey descends from carries less weight for me.]

...okay, I think that’s all the Detaily Bits I want to get into, so here are some bullet points of things that really stuck out to me, in no particular order:

Bawled like a baby re: everything involving Carrie Fisher. Just...yeah. Miss you Space Mommy.

LANDO! I loved his entrance, I loved him adopting Jannah at the end, I loved all of it.

Chewie’s fake-out death was also actually pretty good/well-handled. I mean. First Boom happens and I’m like DDDDDDD: but then I remember how people reacted to his death in Legends and I’m like would they really do it and then DELIGHT.

HUX. Okay. I never really cared about this dude before, and honestly I still don’t really care about this dude but at the same time, those of you who know me know I have a Thing for double-agents and defectors and I LOVE THIS WHOLE ENTIRE PLOT THREAD. I LOVE THIS SHITHEAD TURNING TRAITOR FOR THE MOST VENAL REASONS AND STILL BEING A BAD GUY/EVIL/AN UNREPENTANT JACKASS. THIS WAS PERFECT.

(Also Finn shooting him in the leg instead of the arm as requested was DELIGHTFUL)

SPEAKING OF DELIGHTFUL gotta love Zombie Skeev Palpatine Unliving His Best Afterlife. Was he as Delightful as he is in ROTS or ROTJ? No. Did I still enjoy every minute of his scenery-chewing nonsense? You bet your ass. So happy, Ian McDiarmid looked like he was having tons of fun and honestly what more could I have asked for?

The whole scene on Ahch-To was just *chef’s kiss.* Use of Yoda’s theme with the rising X-Wing, Luke being snarky and kind and beautiful, him emerging from the fire with the saber...just loved it.

LEIA HAD JEDI TRAINING AND HER OWN LIGHTSABER. BB!MARK HAMILL AND BB!CARRIE FISHER’S FACES.

LEIA TRAINING REY. REY CALLING HER ‘MASTER.’

USING THE BOND TO ARM KYLO REN okay like I said I have Mixed Feelings about the arc as a whole but that moment was SO COOL.

Poe’s ex-girlfriend was pretty great, ngl.

JANNAH AND EX-STORMTROOPERS YESSSSSSSS

HINTS OF/SHREDS OF EVIDENCE FOR FORCE-SENSITIVE FINN GIVE THEM TO ME NOW.

D-0 was pretty cute!

All of the Badass Finn.

Also that MOMENT where Finn runs up to Poe like “I NEED TO TELL YOU A THING” and Poe is all “I NEED YOU TO FIGHT WITH ME” and Finn just interrupts himself to thank Poe and they have that “General” “General” moment and it’s SO CUTE I’m love it.

The entire thing at the Lars farm at the end. Just. Burying the lightsabers, seeing the twins’ ghosts, claiming the Skywalker name, Rey having her own saber now. This movie was a Hot Mess but it definitely ended on a high note.

...that’s pretty much what I have for right now. I will probably have more thoughts after discussing it with other people/seeing it again (because I will be seeing it again). But overall...do I like it? Well, it’s Star Wars, which I love and which frankly always has some Super Dumb and/or Frustrating Stuff, and the things I disliked weren’t bad enough to Ruin It for me, so yes, I liked it. Is it my favorite Star Wars/good for a Star Wars movie? ...not really, no. It did have some gorgeous moments, but it doesn’t really hang together. Like the rest of the ST, it relies way too much on It’s All There In The Manual and, between that and the fact that TLJ didn’t do the work necessary to set it up, the movie felt rushed and a little bit...I don’t want to say hollow, maybe shallow is a better word? I mean, I know this is Star Wars and It’s Not That Deep (but the ground is soft and I’m ready to dig or however the quote goes), but this felt particularly shallow even for Star Wars. Like...cotton candy, fairly good/tasty but a little bit prone to melting away and with very little substance holding it together. On that level, I’d actually probably rank it around Solo (which, let me say, I really like)--so, better than TLJ, but still A Hot Mess of a movie. But I enjoyed myself, and I think overall my feelings are middling-to-positive on it. Even if...honestly, even like less than four hours after the movie ending, I’m already forgetting like half the plot points...? Like I said. Cotton Candy.

What did/do you guys think?

[searchingwardrobes]

This Girl Ain’t Going Anywhere: 2/3

Um, yeah, so . . . this is three chapters now. I know exactly how this will end, and there just wasn’t space and time to get there in this chapter. Plus, I can never resist a cliffhanger! This is part of my birthday fic for @katie-dub and if you missed chapter one, you can read it here.

Also on Ao3 as part of my Fandom Birthday Playlist.

Summary: The Brothers Jones have built a reputation as the most feared pirates in all the realms. When they hear of the bounty on the heads of two princesses – The Princess of Fire and The Princess of Ice – they don’t hesitate to set sail on the Jolly Roger to hunt them down. But have the Brothers Jones finally met their match?

Rating: T

Trigger warnings: This chapter reveals the circumstances of Henry’s birth, and Baelfire is not a good guy. It wasn’t rape (this is rated T), but it’s still in the dubious consent category. If you want more spoilery details, you can message me.

Words: 5,300 and some change in this chapter

Tagging: @snowbellewells @kmomof4 @whimsicallyenchantedrose @winterbaby89 @jennjenn615 @teamhook @bethacaciakay @thislassishooked @kday426 @snidgetsafan @tiganasummertree @delirious-latenight-laughs @distant-rose @optomisticgirl @let-it-raines @welllpthisishappening @wellhellotragic

Chapter Two

I've run for miles and lost sight of where you are, but you have seen me all along. Maybe I'm the last to know when I've gone too far, and yet I'm always by your side. This girl ain't going anywhere. I can promise you this, now I know for sure. This girl ain't going anywhere.

 It’s so early in the morning, the sun isn’t yet up. He’s just left for the docks, and I simply have to get my feelings down on paper. Yes, he just left my chambers. I don’t dare write his name, even here. If he were punished for what we’ve shared, I couldn’t bear it. I don’t know if I can bear our separation either, but it can’t be helped.

I blush thinking of last night. I told him I was inexperienced, and he was so tender. I felt so loved, so special . . . so safe. I know that sounds strange to say about a night of passion, but it’s true. And there was definitely passion -

Liam lowered Elsa’s journal, his hands shaking. If he could go back to that night, would he make different choices? It had been Elsa’s idea to sneak him into her chambers, she had been the one to tug him shyly towards her bed, and when he had asked if she was sure, she had assured him – rather enthusiastically, actually – that she was. Yet that didn’t change the fact that she was the crown princess. It didn’t change the fact that he left her in the morning. It didn’t change the fact that he never returned. It hadn’t been his intention, but he had acted as the worst type of cad.

He swallowed hard before lifting the journal once again. Anna had asked him to read it, even marking certain pages, but knowing he was just hours or less away from seeing Elsa again face to face, he couldn’t shake the feeling he was violating her privacy. Anna had said it would help him understand; whatever that meant.

The letters have stopped altogether. I tried to tell myself he just couldn’t get any to me. Especially with King George constantly threatening war. He keeps his navy on their toes. But now . . . it’s been so long . . .

I can’t believe what I’ve heard. The Jewel of the Realm is now a pirate ship? Apparently, the entire crew has mutinied against their king, loyal to their captain more than the crown. King George has put a bounty on the heads of every sailor on board. He’s even given writs to violent pirates, declaring them privateers to get his ship back. I swing back and forth between terrifying worry and red-hot anger. If only I knew the reasons. If only a letter would come!

Liam stopped reading, putting his head in his hands with a groan. He had thought at the time that a letter would have been unwelcome. What a fool he had been! He could have at least explained; hadn’t he owed her at least that much? He lifted his head and kept reading, like a seaman who can’t look away from a shipwreck.

I don’t know what’s happening to me. It was so gradual, I didn’t even notice at first. A room turning chilly when I entered. Beverages staying ice cold in my hand. Then, one day, I was crying over a letter I never sent – could never send – to . . . him. The tear drops were ice as they fell, then the feather pen froze in my fingers, snapping in two. The inkwell was a solid block of ice. It’s tied to my emotions, that I can tell, but the more I try to control it, the worse it gets. I’ve confided only in Anna. She believes it’s a gift. But what if I hurt someone? I’ve taken to wearing gloves all the time, but fear it’s only a temporary solution . . .

Liam shut the journal, unable to read more. Not only had he broken Elsa’s heart, but he hadn’t been there to help her during a difficult time. And the timing of it all . . . did losing him have something to do with her ice powers? Liam chuckled wryly at himself as he ran a hand through his hair. You think awfully highly of yourself, don’t you, Captain Jones? As if he were capable of rattling a strong, confident woman like Elsa. And yet . . . he hadn’t expected the type of heartbreak she had written of in her journal. Hadn’t expected her to await his letters with such expectation. He had never felt worthy of her, and it seems that belief became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

***********************************************************

Killian had imagined seeing Emma Swan again a million times in his dreams, but in none of them did she slap him across the face. His cheek tingled with the impact, and as he rubbed the redness away, he wondered if the lingering heat was a little taste of her powers.

“You always were a feisty lass,” Killian sassed, swiping his tongue across his lower lip.

Henry glared at him, giving him a slight jab in the ribs. “You’re not helping,” he hissed, “be a gentleman.”

Children are notoriously loud at whispering, so it wasn’t as if Emma hadn’t heard her son. Killian winked at her as he took her hand and lifted it to his lips.

“I’m always a gentleman,” he told her before pressing a lingering kiss there.

Emma snatched her hand away. “It’s not you,” she told him quickly, “I . . . uh . . . don’t want to hurt you.”

Killian arched a brow. “Your slap in greeting said otherwise.”

Emma rolled her eyes in that endearing way he remembered so fondly. “You deserved it, but a slap is one thing. Burning you is another.”

Killian looked at Emma’s clenched fists, which were glowing a reddish orange. Elsa snatched one of them, and Emma let out a shudder.

“It’s fading even more quickly,” Emma said with alarm.

“You need to make haste to Dread Mountain.”

Killian whirled around, drawing his cutlass in one smooth motion, his other arm reaching out instinctively for Henry and the princesses. There before the entrance to the cabin was a man who didn’t look any older than Killian, with a handsome face and a strong, slender build.

“It’s alright,” Emma said, putting a gentle hand to Killian’s bicep, “it’s Merlin, the sorcerer.”

Killian reluctantly lowered his weapon, hating the feeling of jealousy that rose up within him. It was one thing for the girls to be staying in this hovel with a wizened man with a long white beard, it was quite another for them to be here alone with . . . him.

“Dread Mountain is not a destination for the faint of heart,” Killian said tentatively, still suspicious of the man.

“I agree,” Merlin said pleasantly with a serene expression, “but the Quapah of Dread Mountain are the only ones who know the art of mixing elements.”

“The Quapah!?” Killian exclaimed. “Are you insane? They may kill us on sight! They’ve dabbled in magical arts to the point they’re no more than wraiths.”

“If Emma and Elsa do not seek instruction on how to mix fire and ice, they will each be consumed,” Merlin said, his eyes flashing with intensity.

“Consumed!” Henry cried out, throwing his arms around Emma.

Jade eyes bore into Killian’s, and his heart sank. It seemed like a suicide mission, but if they did nothing, Emma would surely die.

“The Brothers Jones offer the crown princesses their ship, their loyalty, and their protection for the remainder of this dangerous quest,” Killian vowed.

“Even your brother?” Elsa asked, an edge to her voice.

Killian’s eyes widened at the miniature blizzard that ghosted around Elsa’s frame. He swallowed nervously. “I speak for him as well. We trust one another explicitly.”

At least, he hoped so.

*************************************************

“How long were you going to try and ignore me?”

Liam spun around at the sound of that soft, calm voice that had haunted his dreams. And there Elsa stood, in the doorway of his own quarters. She had changed much since he’d seen her last. Her hair was a lighter shade of blonde, with white streaks. Her freckles had faded, her complexion a bit paler, like alabaster. He wondered if these slight changes were because of her magic. Her hands were clasped in front of her, her shoulders still thrown back in that confident regal manner. She looked more sensual too than he remembered, clad in a thin blue gown studded with rhinestones, a gossamer cape about her shoulders. The scooped neckline showed off enough cleavage to cause a physical reaction that he struggled to tamp down. Her long, elegant neck was tantalizing too, and he imagined that her skin was still as soft as rose petals.

She arched one elegant brow. “Are you just going to stand there staring at me?”

He swiped at his lower lip nervously. “You - you used to be so soft-spoken.” He winced. It sounded as if he were insulting her. You really thought that was a good line to open with?

“Heartbreak makes a person bolder I suppose,” she told him dryly.

He swallowed, and ran a shaky hand across his sweaty brow. “I’m . . . I’m an idiot, Elsa, that’s all I can say.”

“At least we agree on that.”

He sensed no humor whatsoever in her words. She moved with poise into his chambers, almost as if she were floating. She definitely had the whole “intimidating ice queen” thing down. Liam resisted the urge to take a step back.

“I thought you and your sister would be most comfortable here in the captain’s quarters,” Liam said, attempting a business-like air with a tilt of his chin.

She ignored him, reaching around to his desk. Her breasts brushed against his upper arm, and he couldn’t stop the shudder that ran through him. When Elsa pulled back, she had a slim leather volume in her hand.

“Who gave you this?” she snapped, her light blue eyes sparking with anger.

“Your sister,” Liam told her simply, “she wanted me to understand -”

“Understand what? My heartbreak?”

“Yes,” he said softly, “and I’m glad I read it. Elsa, I’m so sorry. I owed you an explanation.”

“Then why didn’t you give me one?”

Liam ran both hands through his hair, making the curls stand up crazily. “You and I . . . it was a crazy dream from the beginning. But when I mutinied? I killed it completely. I didn’t know how to tell you. I didn’t -”

“Think I would understand?” Elsa finished for him, her voice going soft.

His eyes searched hers, and he realized his love for her had never gone away. She hadn’t backed up after taking her journal from his desk, and if he just leaned forward an inch, his lips would brush hers.

“No, I suppose I didn’t,” he admitted, “especially since I could scarcely understand it myself.”

“King George planned on using Dreamshade as a weapon of genocide. How could I not understand?”

Liam blinked, unable to hope that he had heard her correctly. She lowered her gaze, a blush staining her cheeks.

“Unless . . . it was really about getting what you wanted from me. Never really loving me.”

Her words were like a dagger to his heart. “God no, Elsa!” he cried. “I loved you, body and soul, I – I still . . . “

“You still what?” she whispered.

She was closer still. So close, and her lips so pink and inviting . . .

Liam lowered his head, his nose brushing hers, and Elsa’s breath hitched. Their lips hovered close, their breaths mingling into frost. Wait . . . why was their frost? Why was he suddenly so cold?

Elsa gasped and stumbled away. He groaned at the loss of her nearness, so disoriented he didn’t understand her retreat.

Until he saw the icicles hanging from the ceiling of his quarters.

*****************************************************

Killian nervously swiped a few items from the crate in the corner of his quarters, stuffing them into a canvas sack that hung from his shoulder. Emma stood just behind him, her presence filling up the space so he could scarcely breathe.

“Want to sweep the room for all evidence of your conquests?” she snapped.

Killian swung towards her, eyes ablaze. “That’s rather ironic, coming from you.”

Her eyes narrowed. “I’ve heard things around the docks.”

Killian marched angrily into her personal space. “A man has to keep up appearances, I’m a pirate!” He snarled at her, curling his lip and almost relishing in the slight look of hurt in her eyes. He deflated quickly, however, her hurt not something he truly desired. “But really, there have only been a small few to try and numb the pain. The pain you caused. But I can’t let the world know how Princess Emma broke my heart because she refused to write back when I was just a boy.”

By the end of his short speech, he had averted his eyes, scanning the room for any belongings he might have missed.

“It's not what you think!” Emma cried out, and when he turned back to face her, both her fists were clenched. He was relieved to see no hint of red fire.

“You mean you didn’t go and have a child with someone else only a year after I left?”

Emma’s face crumpled, and Killian felt as if a dagger had been thrust into his chest. Feeling remorseful, he reached out a hand, but Emma backed up with a shake of her head.

“Just let me speak,” she pleaded, and he acquiesced with a nod of his head. “The Dark One – his son saw me one day when I was at the market. He fancied himself in love with me.”

Killian’s brow creased. ”Rumplestiltskin has a son?”

Emma nodded. “He kept him very sheltered, killed anyone who wouldn’t give the boy what he wanted, threatened those who didn’t swear his existence to secrecy. Until he met me.”

She twisted her hands nervously as she told her tale. “Baelfire - that was his name – was sick with supposed love for me, couldn’t let go of the idea of having me. So the Dark One came to my parents with his demand – I would wed his son, or Misthaven would be reduced to ash.”

Killian felt white hot anger rise up within him. Every fiber within him wanted to rail, throw something, or at least wrap his arms around this strong woman who had obviously been through so much. Instead, his shaky limbs unable to hold him, he collapsed onto the edge of the room’s only cot.

Emma continued, ignoring his reaction. “How could I risk the Dark One’s wrath upon my kingdom? You'd barely set sail. My mother talked to me, knew I loved you, asked if we’d written. You likely know my parents’ story. They always wanted true love for me. My mother begged me to let them try to find another way. But what could I do?”

Emma sank to the bed next to him, yet still far enough away that they didn’t touch. “The engagement was quick, so was the wedding, and there was no announcement, no official declaration that I had wed at all. Yet . . . the Dark One demanded an heir right away. So . . . I did what was required of me.”

Killian’s heart felt like it had stopped beating for a moment, as he looked at her profile. She had turned her head away, as if too ashamed to meet his gaze.

“Did he hurt you?” Killian’s voice was hoarse.

Emma’s eyes closed tightly. “No, it . . . wasn’t what I’d always dreamed of, but he didn’t hurt me. Bae was selfish and shallow, but not cruel.”

Killian’s jaw clenched, and he fought back the tears behind his eyes. He knew he had to stay calm while she told her tale, but he raged inside. This absolute angel beside him deserved to be worshipped, deserved to have a person who would love her enough to put her needs before his own. She didn’t deserve to be used in such a base and vile way.

“Emma,” he finally asked, voice soft and gentle, “what happened to him?”

Emma looked at her hands, face coloring with shame. “When I first found out I was with child, he was thrilled, even more so when my grandmother's old pendant showed it was a boy. But as the time of my confinement neared, he began to withdraw. After a time, it became clear. My changing body disgusted him.”

Killian’s jaw clenched, though he held his tongue. This man was the lowest scum, in his opinion. How could he have held his bride in such contempt for bearing his son? It was unfathomable. Even worse was the look of shame and embarrassment on Emma’s face right now. He longed to gather her close, to assure her that if he had the infinite blessing to create life with her, he would see it as nothing short of miraculous and overwhelmingly beautiful.

“When Henry was born, Baelfire showed no interest in him. Didn't want to hold him or even look at him. He was never around, really. He started coming home later and later in the evenings. He said that if he was my dirty little secret, nothing was stopping him from passing his time in the taverns.”

Emma took a long shuddering breath, and finally Killian could stand it no longer. He took her nearest hand in his. She gave him a trembling smile as he rubbed his thumb over her knuckles.

“Then, when Henry was about four months old, I heard a noise in Baelfire’s private chamber, and I . . . I caught him in the act with one of my chamber maids. The woman, she ran off in shame, but Bae and I argued. My magic had been flaring on and off. I kept brushing it off, thinking I was imagining things. But – I was so angry, I lost control.”

Emma crumpled in on herself, and Killian wrapped his arms around her.

“The- the fire, it engulfed the room,” Emma gasped out as tears wet Killian’s shirt sleeve, “and I fled with the baby. Everyone assumed it was an accident, and I didn’t correct them. The accident and Henry’s existence where the only things that kept the Dark One from turning on the kingdom in his grief. Anyway, my magic didn’t flare again until a few months ago.”

“With Henry?”

“Yes. A skittish horse broke free from the stable hands. It was coming right for him, so I grabbed Henry and yanked him out of the way. There were burn marks in the shape of my hands.”

Emma’s silent tears turned to sobs, and she turned in Killian’s embrace. HIs heart broke over her weeping, but the feel of her in his arms was heaven. He whispered words of comfort against her hair and rubbed her back. A warmth spread across his chest. At first he thought it was simply his body’s physical reaction to her nearness after so many years, but then the warmth grew hotter, and he realized it was coming from where Emma’s palms rested. She gasped and jerked away. Her eyes wide and frantic, she scrambled from the bed, and backed out of the room, almost falling as she stumbled.

“I’m so sorry!”

“Emma -”

“No! Stay back!” she cried, then she fled from him, calling out for Elsa.

Killian sagged back down onto his bed, rattled from the flare of Emma’s magic, but more from the story she had told. The tragedy of it, the difficulties she had been through, overwhelmed him, and his head collapsed into his hands. He knew now why she had stopped writing him, and the person that it had hurt the most was Emma herself.

*****************************************************

Killian was supposed to be plotting their course, but he kept fumbling the sextant in his hands. If his gaze kept being pulled to Emma, he would end up dropping it completely. She was a vision, standing at the rail, her hair blowing in the ocean breeze. He sighed, and lowered his gaze back to the maps in front of him. She had avoided him since the moment they had shared in his quarters, spending the majority of her time with the other ladies and her son. When Henry wasn’t busy as the ship’s junior seaman, that is. She would sometimes smile fondly at him over Henry’s enthusiasm, and those brief moments were like a balm to Killian’s heart.

On the upper deck, Liam was speaking with Elsa, his smile bright as his hands gestured out to sea. The blonde laughed delicately, slender fingers pressed to her lips. Her reaction made his brother beam, his chest puffing up. Killian was equal parts jealous and happy for his brother. Elsa was still hesitant, even flinching away anytime Liam tried to touch her, but it was clear she was simply afraid of hurting him. Emotionally, the pair of them seemed to be picking up where they left off.

If only Emma would give him the same chance. She was no longer the open, exuberant princess she had been in their youth. She was still feisty and obviously willing to fight for her kingdom and her son. As for herself, however, she was guarded and distant. Killian longed to tear down her walls, but he knew he would have to do it slowly, brick by brick.

As Killian lowered his head back to his task, he didn’t see Emma turn her eyes away from the sea and land upon him. A wistful smile filled her face as she watched Killian work, the fingers of his left hand worrying at his chin, his thumb running across his lower lip. She remembered well what his kisses felt like, how they made her feel out of control and completely safe simultaneously. But as a boy of seventeen, he had been clean shaven. She wondered what that scruff he now sported would feel like against her chin, her cheeks, and . . . other places. She felt a blush stain her cheeks, and she quickly looked away. She took long, slow breaths to calm her suddenly racing heart. The heat sparking between her fingertips slowly drained away as her blood cooled. She saw Killian’s hurt, wondering why Emma ignored him while Elsa and Liam enjoyed one another’s platonic company. He had no idea the affect he still had on her, and with her magic, she was a danger to everyone on board more so than Elsa. Fire wasn’t exactly a friend to a wooden pirate ship.

Suddenly, there was a cloud of red smoke, and when it cleared, Emma had to bite back a scream. Standing on the deck of the Jolly Roger was the Dark One himself. As shouts went up from the crew, Emma looked around frantically for her son, and when she found him sitting on a barrel mending a sail, she yanked him up and pulled him close, shielding him from his grandfather.

“Rumplestiltskin,” Killian bit out as he drew his cutlass, “we meet at last, snake.” He sneered, looking the reptilian man up and down. “Or should I call you crocodile?”

Emma’s heart pounded in her chest as she whispered Killian’s name in warning, pulling Henry along as she shuffled close to her former flame. She understood his anger, but he had no idea what the imp was capable of.

The Dark One gave the pirate a dismissive glance before pointing one of his claws at Emma. She surreptitiously pushed Henry behind her.

“You, princess, did not fulfill our deal.”

“Your son wanted me, and he had me. I even bore him a son. I’d say I fulfilled it just fine.”

Rumple’s eyes flashed bright red. “By treating my son like the royal family’s dirty secret? And don’t think I haven’t put two and two together about the supposed accident that killed him. Not since the truth about you came out.”

“You never specified what kind of marriage.” Despite her fear, Emma arched a brow. “Perhaps you should have read the fine print.”

Killian was equal parts aroused and nervous by his Emma’s bold sass.

“No, my dear,” the Dark One hissed, practically skipping across the deck. Liam moved to stand shoulder to shoulder with his brother. Elsa eased closer to Emma, extending her hand as subtly as possible towards Emma’s in case she needed it. “I think it’s you who failed to read the fine print. The boy, in the event of my son’s demise, is mine!”

Before anyone had time to react to Rumple’s words, he had transported Henry to his side. Everyone cried out. Emma choked on sudden tears at the look of terror on her son’s face.

“No, please!” she begged. “You haven’t cared a thing about him for eight years. Why would you want him now?”

Killian’s fingers itched around the hilt of his cutlass. He could feel the tension radiating from his brother beside him. Looking around, he saw the entire crew had encircled their unwanted visitor with swords and pistols drawn. Liam’s raised hand stayed them. They couldn’t risk Henry. But what if the Dark One suddenly disappeared, taking the boy with him?

“Well,” Rumple cackled, “for one, these talents of yours intrigue me, and I like to have a bargaining chip. For another, he’s at a more manageable age, and it’s high time I had another boy to groom.”

With that, as they all cried out in horror, the Dark One plunged his hand inside Henry’s chest. The boy’s mouth opened wide in a silent scream. Rumple tugged, yanking Henry’s heart from his chest.

“Please!” Emma sobbed, and she could feel the fire lighting up her veins. Part of her wanted to give in to it, but she was too afraid of hurting her son. “Don’t hurt him!”

“Hurt him? Now, why would I want to do that when I can control him?” The reptilian man cackled again, bringing Henry’s heart up to his lips. “Bow and pledge your loyalty to me, young prince.”

“I pledge my loyalty,” Henry repeated in a monotone, lowering his knees before the Dark One.

The grimace of restrained anger on Henry’s face made Killian’s blood boil. His mind was transported to days of whips and fists forcing him to his own knees. With Henry’s lowered position, Killian saw an opening and with a shout he lunged forward, bringing the hilt of his sword down on the Dark One’s wrist, sending Henry’s heart falling from his grasp. In one fluid motion, Killian scooped it up in his left hand.

“Give it back, pirate!” Rumplestiltskin screamed in rage.

Killian clicked his tongue, shaking his head in mockery. “Uh, uh, uh, I’m disinclined to acquiesce to your request, crocodile.”

“Then I’ll just take it,” he hissed.

Before Killian could register anything, his cutlass had been transported to Rumple’s scaly hand. The blade came down on the wrist that held Henry’s heart, and both the red glowing organ and Killian’s left hand hit the deck. For a heartbeat, Killian couldn’t comprehend what he was seeing. Then the pain hit him in an overwhelming, blinding wave as his blood spilled upon the deck. Several voices were screaming his name, but all Killian could do was crumple to his knees as he cradled his arm to his chest. Over his head, waves of ice and fire collided together, hitting the Dark One in the chest. Liam rushed to snatch Henry’s heart as the Dark One rose back to his feet.

“No one’s magic is a match for mine!”

“Leave them alone!” another voice rent the air.

Emma, panting from exertion and fear, lifted her head to see Anna there, Kristoff at her side. They were both slightly disheveled, and Kristoff’s shirt was buttoned wrong, and under any other circumstances, it would have been funny to realize where they had disappeared to. Anna held a dagger in her shaking hands, pointing it at Rumplestiltskin. Emma was surprised when the imp’s eyes widened in fear. Anna wasn’t exactly intimidating, and wherever she had found that dagger, it couldn’t possibly be a match for his dark magic.

“Where did you get that?”

“It’s yours,” Anna taunted, a trembling half smile lifting the corner of her mouth, “fell out of your coat when my sister blasted you.”

Rumple’s eyes narrowed, and he cackled. “You are nothing, little girl.” He reached for Henry.

“Don’t touch him!” Anna screamed, and to everyone’s shock, Rumple snatched his hand back. “Step back!”

Once again, the Dark One did what Anna commanded. The red head tilted her head, her forehead creased in thought.

“Wait a second. You’re staying away from him just because I told you to?’

It was the barest of glances, but Emma noticed Rumplestiltskin’s eyes flick to the dagger in Anna’s hands. She wondered if Anna had noticed it as well. The smile that lifted the girl’s face said that she did.

“I get it,” she smirked, waving the dagger around, “as long as I’m holding this wavy knife, you have to do whatever I say. Is that why your name’s on it?”

The Dark One scowled and then stomped his foot like a petulant child. “Yes.”

Killian collapsed onto his side, curling in on himself with cries of pain. Emma fell to her knees beside him, her still red-hot hands hovering over him as tears streamed down her face. Anna’s gaze flickered to the two of them.

“Then heal him,” she commanded.

Rumplestiltskin’s smile made Emma’s skin crawl. “No can do, little princess. Magic has rules, and one of them is that magic can’t restore what magic has taken. I took his hand, it’s gone.”

He did a merry little, slightly demented dance as he clapped his hands. It made Emma want to set him on fire.

“Then at least save his life!” Emma screamed.

She cursed herself inwardly. All she wanted to do was gather Killian close, comfort him, but the emotions surging through her had her hands glowing like hot coals. Elsa seemed to sense her distress, and sank to her knees next to her, taking both of her hands in hers.

“You heard her!” Anna screamed. “Save him!”

The Dark One gave an exaggerated eye roll. “Fine.”

Then he pointed a lazy finger at Killian, who still writhed in pain. A dark smoke of magic enveloped him, and when it cleared, the wound had closed and the bleeding had stopped. His body slumped in Emma’s arms, and she wiped at his sweaty brow with her fingertips. If there hadn’t been an audience, she would have pressed a kiss there in relief.

“Now,” Anna said, her voice shaking as much as her hands, “leave this ship and never come back – oh! And you have to stay away from Arendelle and Misthaven for the rest of eternity. That’s all, now go.”

The Dark One raged, his eyes almost flashing fire. “Don’t think this is over! I’ve gotten that dagger away from forces stronger than you! I will again! I -’

He was cut off as the pull of the dagger’s command became too much, and he disappeared in a cloud of smoke. Anna’s trembling arms fell to her sides, the dagger clattering to the deck. She sagged in Kristoff’s arms.

“You were amazing, babe!” he gushed, peppering her face with kisses. She turned and put her arms around his neck, melting into his embrace as the adrenaline wore off.

Emma pulled Killian’s head into her lap, running her fingers through his hair. Tears still streamed down her face. He was still unconscious, and his pulse was weak.

“Will he be okay?” Henry whispered.

Liam’s face was grim, his voice choked with emotion when he answered. “The Dark One may have healed his wound, but his body’s still in shock.” Captain Jones’s gaze landed on the pools of his brother’s blood. When he saw the severed hand, he shuddered and looked away.

[poweredbycoffeeandwine]

If you have any spots left, I'd love love love to see Tavrien and Kaidan and the secret Santa prompt. :)

Here is the aforementioned angst @lechatrouge673! This one is for you, love! Hope you enjoy it. Sorry it got away from me.

Have some Tavrien x Kaidan feels, set in my “I Don’t Mean To” verse. This takes place during the events of ME2 after Horizon. Is spoilery if you haven’t played The Shadow Broker DLC.

Shepard’s Not-So Secret Santa

Everything was different, but should have been the same. It didn’t matter how evidence pointed to the contrary. Two years. She had lost two years…and yet, Tavrien Shepard felt as though no time had passed at all. Despite the obvious missing scars, and advanced cybernetics infused throughout her body, she felt the same. She might be faster and stronger, but she was confused as hell. Her battle prowess, experience and uncanny ability to strategize in any given situation hadn’t failed her; causing those around her to believe that she was the same old Commander Shepard, maybe a medical miracle, but the same nonetheless.

The conversations that swirled around her indicated just how much she had missed, and she fought to remain impassive as her insides screamed at having no idea what was being alluded to. When Cerberus first revived her, she spent most of the night cycle researching important details in a gap the past held. Alternatively, she attempted to hack her way past EDI’s firewall to contact anyone off ship, Anderson, Hackett, but most of all Kaidan. All to no avail. Then she was sent to Horizon and what hopes she held for normalcy crumbled to dust in her outstretched hands.

The man she trusted, the one person who promised her the world, looked at her with such scorn and contempt. Alenko had actually accused her of betraying the Alliance. Him! As if she would ever have faked her own death to join an organization hell-bent only on advancement of themselves. Not the human race, as they claimed, but the sole person in charge of their disturbed cells. Sick and twisted experiments scattered across the galaxy. The universe had an odd sense of humor. She was brought back from the dead to work with the rabid dogs she had sworn to put down.

She was frazzled, utterly exhausted, and a touch paranoid; she had very few friends to confide in. True friends. Not these Cerberus loyalists attempting to gain her confidence. More of The Illusive Man’s lackeys. Tali remained standoffish, unable to reconcile her friend with the person she saw before her. She was starting to come around, but Shepard didn’t know if it would be the same as it was before. Joker still flew the ship, and she knew where his loyalties lay, but he never left his chair, not trusting the AI so integral to the Normandy SR-2. She felt defeated knowing that all their conversations were likely recorded, and played back for The Illusive Tit.

“Shepard,” EDI’s smooth robotic voice interrupted her thoughts.

“Yes, EDI, what is it?”

“I have an important message from Liara T’Soni.”

“And?” she barked at the AI. She was still angry at her once friend. After discovering what part the new Shadow Broker played in Cerberus acquiring her remains, she was finding it hard to trust her. Everything really was different.

“She requests your presence on her base.”

“Tell Joker to set a course for Hagalaz. Inform me when we are close.”

“Commander Shepard, I feel I should remind you, The Illusive Man is expecting you to collect the Reaper IFF. We are, in fact, closer to our initial destination that Hagalaz.”

“EDI, I honestly don’t care. Set a new course.”

“I hear you loud and clear, Commander,” Joker replied, hanging up the line, but not before she heard the continued argument between her pilot and the machine he despised so much.

Tavrien made her way to the desk to check her email. Hoping against hope that Kaidan had contacted her. She had answered his email. The one she left in her inbox and read so often she knew it by heart. It didn’t stop her from feeling foolish when she remembered everything she said and did on Horizon. The way she flung herself into his arms, as if he could set to rights all the wrongs that had happened with one hug. Like he could make all that she had gone through a bad dream. She finally realized she would never wake from this nightmare. At least she found herself outnumbered and about to embark on a suicide mission. Maybe this time it would take.

She stared at his photograph. She didn’t know the person responsible for it being in her personal quarters, and she would likely never thank them, but it was a comfort in times like these. She had believed in karma, once. Had thought that if she lived life respectfully, treaded carefully, treated others with tact, she would have a relatively gratifying life. Instead she was the butt of every cosmic joke. She barely lived through the attack on Elysium, she survived the Battle of the Citadel, but hearing that Kaidan had moved on killed her. Sure she was walking, talking, breathing, fighting the good fight, but she was still a husk.

She sighed, rubbing circles into her temples, and glanced at her console. She really should attempt to rest before she heard Liara’s news. No doubt it would be a difficult meeting, no matter the reason for the request to see her, it was the first since she helped her gain the title of Shadow Broker. She moved to lay on her bed, not bothering with much beside pulling a sheet over her body, praying to any diety listening to grant her one night of dreamless sleep.

Tavrien stood at the airlock, mentally preparing to meet Liara. She hadn’t seen the need to gear up, or bring anyone along. The base would be safe enough or the Asari would have informed her otherwise. Walking the hallways, it was obvious Feron and Liara had been clearing rubble from their fight through the ship. She was obviously taking to her new role well.

“Shepard, I’m glad you came. I was not sure you would come back, even if I asked nicely.” Liara’s gentle voice washed over her. She had been waiting for her to come over the threshold, and Taviren had to admit it was nice that she she found time to meet her at the door. She had been expecting Feron.

“I have discovered that being KIA for two years, and coming back looking younger than ever, is rather unsettling for most old friends.” She smirked, a hint of bitterness seeping through in her tone. “It makes keeping those that will still associate with me a necessity.”

“About that,” Liara glanced at her nervously, ‘you must understand that I will stand by my decision. You were the only one who could save us from the Reaper threat. The universe would be lost without you.”

“Damn it, Liara,” Shepard shouted, rage unchecked, “don’t you hear how crazy that sounds! All the people in the entire galaxy, and nobody else can possibly do anything!”

“Shepard, I apologize. I did not bring you here to ease my conscience. I hope you know that.” Tavrien stood, silent, manicured brow arched, waiting. Realizing that Shepard had nothing to say she sighed and continued, “Kaidan contacted me. I heard about what happened on Horizon, and I’m sorry.”

“What did he want?” she asked impatiently.

“He asked to meet me on the Citadel. I still hold an office there. It helps as a front to go on as much as I ever did.”

“Did you?”

“Yes, I met the Lieutenant.”

“Staff Commander. He was promoted…while I was dead. Just another reminder.”

Liara tentatively reached out, squeezed her hand comfortingly before letting it drop. “Right, anyhow, I met Kaidan. He initially acted out, the way you did when I told him the truth. I told him everything, gave him files to look over. I owed him, and you, that much.”

Shepard looked out the window, stared out into the stars. He knew. He knew for a fact that she hadn’t been lying, and he hadn’t bothered to contact her. Instead of relief, she felt the weight settle more firmly on her shoulders.

“He asked me to deliver something. Well, several things. He asked me to tell you they were from your Secret Santa?” she sounded unsure, probably not aware of human holidays, but wasn’t going to question.

“Please, send them to the ship.” She turned to walk away, and thought better of it. “Liara?” her friend looked up, eyes vulnerable, “It’s good to see you. Once I’ve had more time we will talk, ok?”

“Anytime, Tavrien. You know where to find me.”

She nodded, and retreated back to the SR-2, anticipation and dread filling her stomach.

She found herself at her desk again. This time three carefully wrapped boxes sat in front of her. Two had been mistreated more than the other, but she could see Kaidan’s block print on each tag. Christmas. It had come and gone three times. Twice during her death, and once hardly a month past. He had remembered her for each one. She hugged a package to her chest and cried. She had no idea how much time had past, she was only grateful she had not been disturbed. After the tears dried up, all she felt was numb. The boxes showing just how much he had cared. The grief he had felt, all that he had gone through during the two years she had been dead to the world.

With shaking hands she reached for the most worn box. She unwrapped it delicately. Determined to save the ribbon and the cheerful paper it came in. He had chosen this paper for her, and she would keep it for whatever time she had left. The box held a single, old fashioned skeleton key, and a holograph. She knew the picture instantly, all the time they spent talking about the shore leave they would share in his cabin. They fantasized, they whispered secrets, hopes, dreams, and in the end, would never have the opportunity.

Determined to make it through, she grabbed the next box. It was smaller than the first, her heart pounding after removing the paper to discover a ring box. Fresh tears came unbidden to her eyes as she pried it open. Pillowed in the soft velvet was a solid gold band, but not just any band. Upon closer inspection she found the quote “Moonlight drowns out all but the brightest stars” engraved on the inside. He read the book. She had told him to find it, begged him to read it. She choked on her tears, sobs racking her body. The box was meant for two rings, the twin missing from it’s spot. She didn’t know what it meant, if he kept it or not, but she knew to her core, that he had meant to marry her before Alchera had claimed her. She removed her chain, and slid the ring to rest alongside her dog tags, and tucked them into her shirt near her heart.

The last box sat in front of her, but she set it aside. Choosing instead to open the envelope attached to it.

Tavrien,

I don’t know if you received my email as you haven’t replied. I also wouldn’t put it past Cerberus to keep you from seeing it. This is my best bet, and all I can hope is that Liara didn’t let you down as I did.

I said terrible things to you on Horizon, Shep, and I live with regret everyday. Still, I trust you know that I never could have joined you when you asked. I hate Cerberus with every fiber of my being, but I know that if you had any other options, you wouldn’t be with them now.

Things are desperate with the Alliance, nobody wants to remember the Reapers, and nobody is listening to me about the Collectors. I’m feeling more helpless than ever, and I just found out you are headed to the Omega-4 Relay. I held you in my arms again, changed tune… practically suggesting you might be a clone, then finally realized I should have believed you were real, only to discover you are running headlong into a mission you may not survive.

I am holding out hope for you. Hope that you might return, hope that you might give me a chance to rectify my mistakes, hope that you might still feel the same way I do about you.

Come back to me, Tavrien.

All my love, Kaidan.

Tavrien’s hand covered her mouth, reigning in mournful sounds threatening to tear from her chest. Now, more than ever before, she had to survive. She would survive. Kaidan still loved her. She glanced at the final box, and tucked it into her desk. She made a promise to open it when she defeated the Collectors. She would open it with Kaidan. She would open it, but not until she was back home, where she belonged.

[groundramon]

Homph I finished tri and I wrote down my thoughts as I was watching because I had too many funny shitposts and nobody to share them with bc charlie hasn’t watched tri yet

PS i wont be reblogging tri spoilers (besides MINOR stuff like, digivolutions of already confirmed digivolution lines or non-spoilery shitposts, but I’ll try to tag shitposts as #tri spoilers anyways [digivolutions specific to tri ill tag as well but not ones that were already basically confirmed]) for a while so ur safe here!  I’m just gonna like everything/most things because then I can rb em to hisyaryumon lmao (also u should check out hisyaryumon....its me n charlie’s digimon blog)

EP 1:

- ok. alright. ok. good. they’re dealing with kari’s emotions now instead of just. nothing.  ok. alright. cool.  Still dont like how obscure/”artsy” they’re being with it, this is digimon not kagerou project, but ok.

- Also. I stand by tk and kari being one of the few good straight ships in digimon.  just saying.

- kari: this is my fault... me: god damn it shut up you little brat also me: god relatable ALSO me: ill take whatever display of emotions i can get

- I love how nobody believes tai is dead like.  They’re upset and worried but they’re also like “nah. he cant be. that fucking asshole just left us in our time of need” (actually only matt is the last one)

- Gabumon i would die for you also im crying and I think that’s the first time tri managed to make me fucking CRY

EP 2:

- I had thoughts but then the 02 kids happened and I entered another plane of reality.  I don’t feel real right now

- the only one I can remember is evil!gennai being a dumbass and being like “SUFFER AND SQUIRM YOU PATHETIC HUMANS AS YOU FIGHT OVER THE LAST SEAT” 1. humans are KNOWN for their ability to care for others you dumb obvious fuck and 2. is. is the entire tube going? because that tube can fit too people if they squish.  This isn’t a joke I’m serious it can.

- oh yeah also when i saw whomstever the fuck his name is (adult guy who i love but fuck names) and he was all bloodied i was like “its a cold day in hell when i see blood in digimon” (I think there was blood in an earlier ep but shh idc)

EP 3:

- didn’t nishijima start off as a fucking life coach to these kids.  What the fuck he was supposed to help them find a career not emotionally scar them by bloodily dying in front of one of them

- im realizing that the reason hackmon was always in his cloak, in the shadows, standing still is that they cannot animate him in any normal position for the life of him.  I drew him with better anatomy when i was 14 and didn’t have a tablet.  No seriously, look:

I didn’t say it wasn’t bad, you guys are just underestimating how bad the anatomy on this poor creature is.  Why cant ppl draw dracomon or hackmon correctly imma cry

- ordinemon has the best reaction faces

the best part about these two screenshots is that they literally cut one to the other, first the first one to the second one and then it cuts back to the first one.  They were really proud of these stupid ass expressions.

- I started overcoming my dissociation shock from the second episode and my hypercritical mind was analyzing the shit out of everything that happened (it is Not happy) but then evil!gennai called kari and evil goddess and idk if he’s exaggerating to make her feel bad or if she’s literally a fucking god of chaos and destruction and either way im like

she did kinda like.  Watch wizardmon die, watch tai die, watch gatomon get absorbed.  The dark ocean is just a metaphor for depression and honestly if 02 wasn’t all over the fucking place I think Kari would’ve had some pretty decent development in it.  Actually you know what, I’m using that as an angle to approach Tri at now, wish me luck bc i might actually give it more leeway now

EP 4:

- I’m not dissociating but I forgot to say anything again and I already forgot what happened

- Cant believe mei is fucking dead

EP 5:

- I like to imagine that Tai got there like a few minutes ago, but he was like “well damn guess yall figured it out without me.  alright ill just. see if I need to do anything” and then meicoomon was Still Bad so he waited for when she struck just to make the most badass entrance possible.  Fucking extra ass bitch

- I forgot to write anything again but uhhh I wasn’t satisfied so anyways lets just get into the Juicy Details

Originally I was actually planning to be kinder to Tri than I expected.  Was very invested during it.  ‘Round the end of the last ep I realized hmmm no this isn’t working out.  Where are the 02 kids.  You should’ve brought them in to save the day.  That would’ve been SO cool and SO fun.  Fucking cowards.

god I’m kinda tired so I’m going to address a couple things I still had problems with, note that this isn’t everything it’s just everything I felt comfortable yelling about without rewatching past eps.  Like I forgot nishijima was all bloodied and presumably died in the last part until they brought it up and I was like “????” ALSO DID THE LADY WHO WAS HIS PARTNER OR W/E KILL HERSELF WITH THE GUN SHE FOUND, I JUST REALIZED LITERALLY AS I WAS TYPING THIS THAT SHE FOUND A GUN AND THEN I THINK IT CUT TO BLACK AND I’M

DID SHE FUCKING KILL HERSELF WHAT THE FUCK

anyways my problems:

1. They did joe. really dirty.  I’ll write a more proper rant on this sometime later (mostly bc charlie is MUCH better at talking about joe than I am) but basically I can tell you that his character development in the movies squandered his OG character development.  He’s basically an entirely different person.  Like Tri joe isn’t bad, besides being largely neglected (yes he has a whole half a movie to himself, no that doesn’t make up for it all), its just...not OG joe.  He’s a fine character just not the same character, and its NOT fine when you put the two together.

2. THEY DID THE 02 KIDS EVEN DIRTIER IM SO BITTER sorry you nostalgia-blind, money-hungry fucks at bandai, but the 02 cast is PART OF THE ADVENTURES UNIVERSE.  The only people who hate 02 are ones who like the characters but hate the mess of the storyline at the end, or are completely irrational and elitist about their love of the digimon series and would greatly re-evaluate their opinions if they watched the original series and 02 back to back.  They couldn’t even show them in some kind of group montage at the end??? Standing in the background when they call Mei???  Why couldn’t they call mei from a home phone also, but that’s a less important problem idc that much.  It was a cute scene besides the lack of 02 characters.  Whatever.  AND THE PROBLEM IS LIKE kari and tk?  This entire time???  Were like “oh they disappeared. oops” instead of being frantically searching for their lost friends???  Like i get tk and kari probably have fucking ptsd and can’t express any emotions because they watched important people die in front of their eyes at an incredibly young age but also 1. they didn’t address the ramifications of ptsd, so fuck that theory/excuse and 2. THAT??? WOULD ONLY MAKE THEM LOOK HARDER??? and put on a brave face as they look, but inside they’re so scared and so worried.  Not just “oh sweet, they were found/saved, theyre in the hospital but that’s fine” like WHAT theyre fucking assholes if that’s what they’d canonically do lmao.  God I am SO bitter over the ENTIRE thing with the 02 kids, it would’ve been BETTER if they were deleted from the fucking canon entirely.  Would I have still been bitter?  Yes.  But at least I wouldn’t be madder at TK and Kari too.

3. I stand 100% by the notion that Digimon is not and will never be cut out to be an adults’ franchise.  It wasn’t designed for adults, and it can’t be skewered towards adults.  These particular characters were designed for kids to relate to and find entertaining.  They do not work when placed into an adult setting.  Like, can you imagine a character like Ed from FMA going to the Digimon world?  I guess in a way that’s just Marcus but like.  Just imagine the FMA cast in Digimon Adventure.  It doesn’t work.  Digimon Tri is basically that except real.  Also Data Squad was darker than Adventure so my joke doesn’t even work.

I guess my primary point is that Tri isn’t mature enough of a setup for an adult audience.  It puts a focus on being “complex” and “philosophical” instead of working within Digimon’s constraints and making something good and adult out of that.  Like!  Digimon is a fucking TOY COMMERCIAL.  Don’t give me messages about the futility of human life.  I want bad puns and emotional characters.  That’s what Digimon has ALWAYS been, and ideally always will be.  Tri could’ve made itself more mature by dealing with the ramifications of the Digital World’s events, how it affected the kids psychologically and dealing with healing old scars.  It would’ve been a more mature take on a story we loved and would use things we loved about the story already - the fact that it took so much time exploring characters’ emotions and was surprisingly mature for the time - to make itself better.  You need to take the aspects that drew adults to the show and amplify them, not just slap on a complex story and unfunny dialogue and be like “oh this is fine, right?”

It’s not that Digimon can’t exist as an adult property, its just that if it repeats what Tri did, it’s got no merit and in my eyes the franchise is dead.  If it survives I guess I’ll be happy that people can still enjoy it but I find it unsustainable and unsatisfying to fans of the older series.  Tri is just a fuckfest of highly specific nostalgia that tries too hard to appeal to old fans without capturing what made the original series so magical, and in part thats because the original series WASN’T FOR ADULTS.  I don’t know about the Digimon Story games, bc they’re T-rated so perhaps they’re a better take on an adult Digimon story than Tri?  But you either need to make your own characters and lore specifically for an adult-oriented Digimon season, or perish.  Also, please make it a series and not a group of movies.  Getting four eps every 6-9 months was hell.

I stand by saying Appmon is a more faithful Digimon season than Tri to Digimon’s original spirit.  I believe it holds more potential for success than Tri and better embodies the spirit of the older Digimon seasons.  It’s dumb, its corny, it has horrible puns, but I LOVE it because it also has a deep dark story and emotional moments.  If you dislike Tri and you agree with things I said that make it unlikeable, I highly recommend giving Appmon a chance - if you watch a few episodes and think “oh yeah, I guess this is decent” you’re going to like it.  It’s everything Digimon has always been and hopefully always will be, just with a different concept.  And hopefully the end of the series doesn’t leave a sour taste in my mouth and I have to redact this statement haha since I’m not done with it yet, but I’ve heard good things about it so I’m hoping not so.

Overall, if you watch Tri, don’t get your hopes up.  It resolves everything okay-ish but it’s a pretty forgettable anime on its own and simply doesn’t work as part of the Digimon franchise.

I am, however, pretty interested in what evil!gennai said at the end about Diaboromon and Daemon.  It raises interesting questions about the timeline too.  We know Daemon is in the dark ocean, so perhaps that’s a hint at a future project?  (They did confirm a future project btw, in conjunction with tri being over)  But what about Diaboromon?  I dont believe that Our War Game (I think thats what its called?) took place after Tri, based on the outfits and ages and stuff, but I also don’t remember the movies that well.  Could Diaboromon still be out there too?  It’s interesting.

However, because of the lackluster performance of Tri, I don’t have my hopes up and I really hope that this “next project” goes in a different direction.  Although I guess if they include the 02 kids, I’ll be somewhat less salty...

Side note, did they ever explain why the gennais went evil?  Like ?  That’s a pretty important thing.  The gennais helped SAVE the human world in 02.  And I get that apparently Tri is ignoring 02′s ending but still.  It’s shitty, because Gennai was still a good guy in the original too (and also they cant just keep is younger look and act like 02 never happened)  MAYBE its something I missed but I dont think so.  God there’s just.  So much wrong with Tri.  I’m very displeased and very bitter and I wanna get back to Appmon asap.

It’s got good moments, its got bad moments, I dont know, I don’t care.  There’s nothing wrong with you if you like it, there’s nothing wrong with you if you don’t, and there’s nothing wrong with you if you flip flop and are split like me.  I just wish Tri fulfilled its potential instead of becoming a boring mess.

[nyerus]

Nyerus’ Victuuri Fic Rec List

These are in no particular order, really, just a list of my fave Victuuri fics—some of which I think a little less well known (but idk). I’ve been sitting on this for SO LONG that some of the “lesser known” ones are huge now hahaha! I’ll probably make a page for this or something later.

I pulled the “genres” mostly from the tags, but basically winged it based on what felt right. Most fics rated as “Explicit” in this list have smut in them so keep that in mind, but I’ve made special annotations as need be. I’ve also mentioned if there are any significant side pairings.

I’ve added mini-reviews (kinda) as well, which are just my personal thoughts on a fic without getting too spoilery, but you can feel free to skip them.

Current count:

Canon:7

AU: 21

(Quite long, so under a cut).

Canonverse

1.) Heartbreaker by drowsycyborg (Status: Complete – 3.1k words) – Teen

Genres: Pre-series, Outsider PoV, Detroit Days, Humor

Katsuki Yuuri is five foot eight, shy, and one of the most gorgeous and heartbreaking humans ever seen in Detroit.

In which Yuuri is Too Beautiful and Good and no one around him knows how to be chill about it. And thus, he unwittingly breaks a lot of hearts in Detroit. Set pre-series, it’s hilarious to see people lament over the sweet, lovely Katsuki Yuuri (long before we see poor Victor fall victim in-canon). Possibly part of a future series?

2.) katsuki_fc wrote by tetsurashian (Status: Complete – 12.7k words) – Gen

Genres:  Social Media, Outsider PoV

Just because Yuuri isn’t big on social media, doesn’t mean his fans aren’t.(aka a social media fic)

Basically the series seen through a social media lens. In other words, the social media reactions one would expect to see in-canon if we got a glimpse of it! It feels very realistic and even incorporates actual fandom discourse (e.g. early fan theories and shipping). A huge round of applause for the author for getting AO3’s formatting to still somehow feel like LJ threads, Tumblr posts, and so on! I’ve read this like a dozen times already and always laugh when I do because it feels sooooo meta.

3.) Distance by surverycorpsjean (Status: Complete – 5.1k words) – Explicit

Genres: Post-series, Domestic, Fluff, Smut

They just can’t stand to be apart.

Victor and Yuuri never outgrow their honeymoon phase and it’s amazing and perfect. Adorable domestic fluff with some great smut (kitchen sex!) in the middle. (It’s set post-canon.) Without a doubt I can say: A+++

4.) The Fundamentals of Caring by braveten (Status: Complete – 20.8k words ) – Explicit

Genres: Hurt/Comfort, Fluff

“Let me guess, you’re going to go take care of Yuuri while he sleeps? Just in case he sneezes or something?” Yurio rolls his eyes, folding his arms across his chest. “Viktor, you’re whipped.”

Viktor rubs the back of his neck as he leans against the wall. “What does that mean?”

“It means that if Yuuri asked you to do a little dance for him in nothing but a coconut bra and a hula skirt, you’d do it.”

Viktor pauses, confused. “And that’s a bad thing?”

Yuuri gets sick while in Russia (not post-series) and Victor tries to take care of him while simultaneously trying to be Chill about it—but a deliriously affectionate Yuuri makes that very difficult. Yurio is eventually recruited to help and he makes Victor’s job harder and easier at the same time, somehow. Very cute!

5.) Lace and Satin by whatsup_buttercup (Status: Complete – 6.2k words) – Explicit

Genres: Established Relationship, Post-series, Lingerie, Light BDSM

“I won gold.” Viktor says, smile in his voice. “Whatever does that mean, Yuuri?”

Yuuri looks down. “Are you sure you don’t want something better?”

“There’s nothing better.” Viktor insists. “Nothing.”

Hoooooo boy! This fic hits basically EVERY single one of my kink so well and honestly I’m grateful it exists. Criminally underrated because it’s so well written and even the dirty talk is A+. It’s technically part of a series but can also work as a standalone (but do yourself a favor and read the other fic in this series too!!!).

6.) Need by sub_textual (Status: Complete – 8.2k) – Explicit

Genres: Post-series, Smut, Semi-public sex

What stands before Viktor now isn’t at all the Yuuri that had stripped off his clothes in front of a hundred people. This is Yuuri, beautiful and blushing, shy in all the ways Viktor knows he isn’t, too embarrassed to express what he really wants. This is Yuuri, abandoning the clasp of Viktor’s pants, to slowly undo Viktor’s tie. This is Yuuri, desperate and needy, ripe and ready for the taking, and he’s all Viktor’s.

Takes place directly after the series, during the banquet. Victor and Yuuri sneak off to the bathroom and get frisky. This fic is hot, ok. There’s a slight dab of exhibitionism and some dom/sub which makes things more exciting!

7.) Jason's Master Plan (to dating the Cute Asian Guy) by Qwertzu (Status: Complete –  9.8k words) –  Teen

Genres: Post-series, Outsider PoV, Humor, Identity Reveal

Jason Hesling, young ice hockey prodigy, rising star of Detroit Ice Tigers and part-time model, had a smile that made women and men alike weak at their knees. It’s been a while since anyone managed to catch his attention – until he met the Cute Asian Guy at Detroit Ice Castle and decided to become his next boyfriend.

Meanwhile, the actual Ice Tiger™ is having the time of his life watching the pretentious JJ-wannabe trying to charm the pants off the completely oblivious, happily married Katsudon.

Hockey jock Jason tries his hardest to woo the “cute Asian guy at Detroit Ice Castle” but isn’t it too bad that said cutie is already happily married to someone else? If only if poor Jason knew.... This fic is honestly a riot and I had such a fun time reading it (and its follow-up fic). It seems to be part of a longer series and I eagerly await more installments! I guess I have a thing for Victuuri breaking everyone’s hearts by being so smitten with each other!

Alternate Universe

1.) Healthy Impropriety by mtothedestiel (Status: Complete – 29.5k words) – Explicit

Genres: Regency AU, Historical, Courtship

Victor is the wealthy master of the Nikiforov estate. At a society party he’s swept off his feet by the mysterious, suave, and very drunk Katsuki Yuuri. Victor aims to declare his love and secure Mr. Katsuki’s hand in marriage, but first he has to find him!

A legit Regency AU in which The Banquet happens Victorian-style and Victor, as always, falls head over heels for drunk Yuuri—who he then sets out to properly court. Victor is a rich, hopeless romantic and Yuuri is a sensible, normal guy trying to live his life. There’s lots of really cute, fluffy scenes between these two with a little bit of angst thrown in there to keep things interesting. It reads like a Jane Austen novel and has a lovely happy ending topped off with some smut!

2.) don’t want to be lonely just want to be yours by Linisy (Status: Incomplete) – Explicit

Genres: Idol AU, Slow Burn, Mutual Pining, Social Media, Alternating PoV

This time the flesh and blood Yuuri wasn't around to distract him, and he watched the video intently, hypnotized by the swing of Yuuri’s hips, the look in his eyes that burned with intensity and the strong, confident line of his shoulders. Yuuri was, as always, breathtaking.

Victor remembered their first meeting well. Yuuri was the last member to join the group. He was soft spoken, and he stood as if he were trying to make himself smaller, shoulders drawn inward, head tilted toward the ground, glasses slipping off his nose. Victor was surprised to hear that he was the second oldest behind Victor himself.

Everything changed the first time he saw him dance. - Vitya, Katsu, Yura, Beka and Chu make up the top idol group SVD. They've been through hell together, living in their tiny dorm and working toward the day they'd finally hit it big. That day has finally come, but sometime over the course of the past three years, Victor has fallen in love with Yuuri Katsuki.

An idol fic that’s full of social media shenanigans, glamour, and emotions. Based on KPop idol groups (like BTS), this fic is a such treat and I can’t even properly articulate why!!! Along with the humor, it’s also incredibly realistic regarding the hardships faced by idol groups due to the heavy restrictions placed on their personal lives by the company that “owns” them. It’s got the right mix of fun and angst and honestly I think about this fic every day. I can’t wait for more!!!!

3.) My Name on Your Lips by feelslikefire (Status: Complete – 108k words) – Explicit

Genres: Historical Fantasy, Magic, Arranged Marriage, Royalty, Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics

Yuuri Katsuki has been betrothed to the High King’s son, Victor, since he was just a child; furthermore, as an omega, he’s forbidden from practicing magic in combat. For years, he’s been able to put off the former because the Prince was traveling abroad, and gotten around the latter by practicing with his mentor in secret.

Now Victor Nikiforov has finally returned home, and Yuuri is being summoned to the capital for their wedding. He needs a plan to put off marriage long enough to find a way to break the betrothal, while keeping his practicing from being discovered.

If only the Prince didn’t have other ideas.

(Or, the swords-and-sorcery arranged marriage AU. Updates weekly.)

This is one of my personal favorites, featuring all my fave things: fantasy, magic, battles, intrigue, and a slow-burn! It does have A/B/O elements but even if that’s not your cup of tea you’ll enjoy this fic for all the other wonderful things it has to offer. The world building is great and the plot keeps you interested at all times. Never a dull moment and has a great mix of tension, fluff, angst, etc. Watch these two dorks fall deeply in love while also getting a fully fleshed-out story. It’s beautifully written.

4.)  Yuuri Enchanted by the__magpie (Status: Complete – 57k words)  – Teen

Genres: Fantasy, Fairytale, Slow Burn

At birth, Yuuri Katsuki was given the gift of obedience, although he quickly learns as he grows up that it is a curse. He has to obey any command given to him, even if it puts him or others in danger. Too afraid to face the terrifying outside world, Yuuri stays in his home town of Hasetsu, until a chance encounter with Prince Victor urges him to venture outside of his safe bubble. Determined to break his curse, Yuuri begins on an adventure involving fairies, ogres, true love, and courage he never knew he had.

An Ella Enchanted AU (based more on the book)! A great fairytale read even if you’ve never read the book (or seen the movie). I love it to bits and that’s all I can say!

5.) Retrouvailles by persephoneggsy (Status: Complete – 32k words) – Teen*

Genres: Historical, Childhood Friends, Friends-to-Lovers, Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics

retrouvailles: the feeling one gets after reuniting after a long time

After he presents as an Omega, Yuuri Katsuki is sent to study abroad for ten long years. When he returns, he’s far, far different from the adorable little boy that used to follow Victor around like a puppy.

Victor is shook.

A very sweet AU that has that regency-vibe. Features confident ballet dancer Yuuri and hopeless mess Victor. The Russian skating team is all one big family here and it’s great, while all the other skaters are dancers too. It has a shifting perspective between Victor and Yuuri, so we get to see what’s going on in both their heads. The A/B/O is pretty light apart from some plot details, so if that’s not your thing this fic is still very enjoyable. [*There is smut in the final chapter, which can be standalone/ignored, hence why the rating remains T overall.]

6.) A Place Like Home by whatsup_buttercup (Status: Complete -- 7k words) -- Explicit

Genres: Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics, Post-series, Emotional Hurt/Comfort

“Do you still skate, Yuuri?” It’s bold of Hiroshi to use his first name, but the familiarity makes sense, considering what they’re discussing.

“No,” Yuuri says, empty. “Not anymore.”

Hiroshi reaches out and puts his hand over Yuuri’s. It’s a little hot from the tea. “If you choose me, we have a rink nearby. I’ll make sure you can skate every day.”

This is a heartbreaking A/B/O in which Yuuri ended things with Victor in Barcelona and is now under pressure to find a suitable mate. Luckily, Victor hasn’t give up on them, no matter what Yuuri may think. It’s a lovely and achingly sweet story, and I was so happy by the end!!!

7.) blood is thicker than by icanhinatashouyoutheworld (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: Enemies-to-Friends-to-Lovers, Custody Battle, Angst, Fluff, Eventual Romance

“You might be Yuri’s biological parent, Mr. Nikiforov. But I’m his father. If Yuri wants to go with you, that’s one thing,” Yuuri Katsuki’s voice flows quiet and dangerous into the room “but if he doesn’t, don’t think that you’re taking my child away from home,”

Or: Victor Nikiforov finds out he has a son. He wants full custody.

Katsuki Yuuri isn’t going to give up his child that easily.

Or: Victor and Yuuri fight a custody battle for Yurio. Shit happens.

Or: Yuri Plisetsky starts with one parent, and ends up with two.

A unique fic in which Victor is Yurio’s biological father, while Yuuri is his adoptive one. Yuuri is struggling to make ends meet and support his child while Victor is a rich supermodel. The relationship between Yuuri and Yurio is so achingly sweet and it’s very easy to root for Yuuri in this fic. It’ll be great to see how Yuuri and Victor eventually become friends and then lovers—so that they all become one big happy family!

8.) Kings in Couture by slightlied (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres:Slow Burn, Alternate Occupations, Fashion

a devil wears prada au in which victor is the editor-in-chief of a fashion magazine, yuuri’s his new secretary, and instead of talking about his feelings, victor just sends him on a bunch of errands 

A Devil Wears Prada­-esque AU which I stumbled upon and am SO grateful for. It’s funny, cute, and features the whole cast in various roles. Yuuri is adorable and Victor is glamorous as ever. It’s such a fun read!!!

9.) Assassin’s Tango by MEIXIU (Status: Incomplete) – Explicit

Genres: Assassins AU, Secret Identity

They are the world’s most greatest assassins. Their identities are a secret, even from each other. One day, however, they discover that they have been assigned to kill one another and their reality comes crashing down on them both.

This is basically a Mr. and Mrs. Smith AU and I’m super excited about it! Features Victor as a suave hitman who’s still a hopeless romantic, and Yuuri as a clever honeypot—who’s juggling his job, school, and his new whirlwind romance. Lots of hot scenes mingled with fluff. Impending angst on the horizon, but the promise of a happy ending keeps me from crying too hard!

10.) The Rules for Lovers by ADreamingSongbird (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: Urban Fantasy, Urban Magic, Arranged Marriage, Mutual Pining, Royalty, Multiple PoV

Prince Yuuri Katsuki has a duty to his country, above all else (his desires, his dreams, and his happiness included), and he knows this alliance will help to ensure the safety of his people. That’s the only reason he accepts Prince Nikiforov’s hand in marriage. The pleasant surprise, of course, is the part where they fall in love along the way. The unpleasant one, well…

That’s a long story.

It’s always a treat to watch these two dorks fall hopelessly in love with each other. They might be engaged, but the mutual pinging intense and heart-wrenching. The political intrigue is just as compelling as Yuuri and Victor’s evolving relationship. The story shifts between many character’s perspectives, keeping things interesting. (And there’s some side Mila/Sara too!)

11.) I Write Sins, Not Tragedies by cuttlemefish (Status: Incomplete) -- Explicit

Genres: Arranged Marriage, Social Media, Mutual Pining, Romantic Comedy, Fluff

Things would be a little easier if Yuuri wasn’t so in love with his husband Viktor, especially considering they have an arranged marriage. Two years after their wedding, Yuuri and Viktor are incredibly in love, but can’t seem to get over the hump of their platonic union to consummate their marriage! Good thing Yuuri is the most (in)famous erotic fanfiction author of the Love in the Streets fandom. Now, he’s got the support of the Internet to figure out how to seduce his husband, if only he can continue to keep their identities a secret. Or, the AU in which everyone thinks Yuuri and Viktor have the perfect marriage full of adventurous sex when, in fact, Viktor sleeps in the guest bedroom and Yuuri writes erotic fanfiction to quench his thirst.

This is a HILARIOUS fic and that’s all I can really even say without doing this work a grave injustice. It’s very well-written and there’s no angst like I thought there would be. Just extreme thirst!!! Can’t wait to see these two get their shit together eventually and work off all that pent-up sexual frustration.

12.) Like a Fairytale by lucyamui (Status: Complete – 73.4k words) – Teen

Genres: Historical, Fairytale, Royalty, Fluff

In which Prince Victor gets swept off his feet at a royal banquet and will go to any length to find his ‘Cinderella’ Yuuri. (And Phichit is the fairy godmother who has no idea what he’s doing)

A Cinderella story in which the Grand Prix Banquet happens, in its own fairytale way. This story features enthusiastic Prince Victor and timid baker/pâtissier Yuuri. Along with Phichit as the Fairy God Mother! It’s fluffy, cute, and has plenty of mutual pining.

13.) lie to make me like you by cityboys (Status: Complete – 80k words) – Mature

Genres:Slow Burn, Alternate Occupations

It’s become a game, of sorts, to anyone privy to the fact that the pattern exists in the first place: ask Victor out at the beginning of the month, date for however many days, and wait for the end to come and for Victor to say, always: I couldn’t fall in love with you. Let’s break up.

Or, Victor is a retired actor looking for love, and Yuuri happens to be the (un)fortunate soul to unwittingly ask him out at the beginning of the month. Except relationships don’t come with a script, and it’s much harder understanding love than roles.

This is a wonderful and sweet slow burn featuring a lost Victor who’s trying to find something he doesn’t know he’s searching for, and a Yuuri who refuses to follow the “script” Victor seems to unwittingly run his life by. Yuuri takes no shit from anyone and constantly keeps Victor on his toes with how surprising he can be. I love both of these two here and watching them fit into each other’s lives is a real treat!

14.) All Eyes on Me by Kizuna_Auri (Status: Incomplete) – Explicit

Genres: Sex Worker AU (Camming), Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics, Fluff, Smut

Yuuri, under the username of Eros, is a size queen omega who most certainly does not have an obsession with fellow camboy and legendary silver-haired alpha Aria. Just like Phichit is not the most meddlesome roommate known to man.

In which Yuuri and Victor are both camboys who happen to be fans of each other, and get set up to share their heat/rut for their audiences by their bffs and moderators, Phichit and Chris respectively. It’s surprisingly fluffy with alpha!Victor being a total sweetheart and omega!Yuuri being a shy bean who’s trying his best to keep up his Eros persona.This fic also highlights Yuuri’s insecurities and anxiety in a very realistic way and the difficulties than can come with being a camboy. The smut is intense and there’s plenty more plot on the horizon!

15.) The Promise of the World by pilindiel (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: Fantasy

When a self-conscious young man is cursed with an old body by a spiteful wizard, his only chance of breaking the spell lies with a self-indulgent yet insecure young wizard and his companions in his legged, walking castle.

The Howl's Moving Castle AU we all secretly wanted.

This is a straight up Howl’s Moving Castle AU!!!. Yuuri fits very naturally into the role of Sophie and Victor is a perfect Howl, but I assume we all knew that was the case already! It’s a very good read and has its own deviations from the source material to keep it feeling fresh.

16.)  (Don’t) Ring the Wedding Bells by cuttlemefish (Status: Complete – 45k) – Explicit

Genres: Alternate Occupations, Social Media, Modern-day Cinderella

As (loosely) inspired by real life, this is the wedding reception AU (you didn’t ask for, but will get) in which Yuuri Katsuki catches the bride’s bouquet and (shortly after) gets smashed at a wedding reception, then dirty dances with his best friend, (sort of) seduces a (hot) platinum-haired trust-fund baby named Viktor, and ends up being hounded for his identity (by said trust-fund baby and his friends and family) on social media.

In which rich!Victor ends up getting woo’d by regular-guy!Yuuri at JJ and Isabella’s wedding reception and pulls out all the stops to find Yuuri again after he disappears. And does so in classic Victor style: as dramatically as possible. Meanwhile Yuuri’s just trying to live his life and forget the whole thing happened because of how embarrassing it was, but when you’ve basically become a meme, things get a little complicated. Still, Victor tries very hard to win Yuuri’s heart and Yuuri eventually finds that he’s very much in love. Naturally, there are some bumps along the way, but these two are made to last. It’s an overall fun AU that has its touching (and sexy) moments too! (May also be a part of a future series?)

17.) Imprisioned by Linisy (Status: Incomplete) – Mature

Genres: Supernatural (Ghosts), Slow Burn

For the past two years, Yuuri has been endlessly tormented by malevolent spirits. Just as he finds himself at the end of his rope, he meets Victor, an enigmatic man who possesses the ability to relieve him.

An AU in which both Yuuri and Victor have powers they don’t quite want, but find that the other might be what they need. Yuuri is a nervous ball of anxiety in this fic because of his ability to see ghosts, and Victor’s own ability leaves him generally isolated from people out of fear of getting too close to them. The whole concept is very unique and I absolutely adore cold(but kind)!Victor gradually warming up to Yuuri. Their interactions are great to read and get me every time!!!

18.) Bottle Me Your Smile by Ncj700 (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: Magic AU, Apothecary AU

In a tiny village on the edge of the kingdom, Yuuri Katsuki – common as mud Apothecary owner – embarks on a goal to achieve a childhood goal. With the help of the world’s greatest magical, he will achieve it.

A super cute fantasy AU that features Yuuri who’s a talented witch when it comes to potionmaking among other things, but is captivated by the powerful sorcerer Victor. Inspired, Yuuri tries to pursue a path of battlemagic, only to spectacularly fail and return to his home to live a quiet, humble life in his little apothecary. However, as fate would have it, Victor and Yuuri’s paths cross unexpectedly, and I can’t wait to see what adventures will unfold! Lovely world building and characterization.

19.)  His Was Gold by AL_KILLER (Status: Incomplete) – Mature

Genres: Historical AU, Harem AU, Slow Burn, Angst

There were dozens of men and women in Tsar Victor Nikiforov’s harem, all of them attractive, ravishing, and beautiful. They wore provocative clothing, sweet smelling perfumes, and sparkling jewelry designed to catch the eye. All in hopes of being chosen by the Tsar for just one night.

Yuuri was the only one in the harem who didn’t want to be chosen. Yet, Yuuri was the only one the Tsar wanted.

I don’t usually read dark fics because I’m fairly sensitive and fragile, BUT! This one is amazingly well-written and evokes such powerful imagery that grips you and doesn’t let go. There’s an air of mystery here that is partly due to Yuuri’s limited perspective and also due to his unreliable-as-always narration, which the author uses masterfully. Even if you’re not a fan of dark fics, I suggest giving this one a go—it’s worth it. (Warnings for graphic descriptions of violence.)

20.) Story About You by heartsinhay (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: FanFic, Slow Burn, Humor

After his disastrous Japanese Nationals, Yuuri turns to the only thing that can comfort him: his old fanfic. Halfway across the world, Victor does the same thing.

Just picked up this fic the other day! Yes the “self-insert fic” is super cringey, but of course that’s the point! It’s hilarious to see poor Yuuri despair at his old writing (because, well, relatable) and to be caught off guard by a sudden fan of his works. I wonder who else would be suddenly and intensely interested in the little Katsuki Yuuri/Victor Nikiforov ship in the figure skating “fandom,” haha! ;)

21.)  23. M. Looking for a challenge. by alykapedia (Status: Incomplete) – Teen*

Genre: Academic AU, Tinder AU, Humor,

“A cute boy with an ass like that says he’s up for a challenge and you send him a math problem?" (Giacometti, 2017).

A (not-so) comprehensive study on the (terrible) mating habits of (beautiful) grad student, Yuuri Katsuki, and (future) Nobel Laureate Viktor Nikiforov D. Sc.

(Or: That one where two physicists fall in love and set off a nuclear reaction. Except not really.)

Another new one that was recommended to me by friends and honestly, I LOVE IT. It’s the academic au you’ve always wanted and never knew you needed! Both Yuuri and Victor are adorable (yet crazy smart) in this and its just so clever in its writing. (*The rating might go up.)

Shameless self promotion:

1.) Celestial Gravitation (Status: Incomplete) – Explicit

Genres: Space AU, Fantasy AU, Action-Adventure, Political, Slow Burn

The Rossiyan Empire controls most of the galaxy. Most, but not all--not yet. The solution to the Emperor's ambitions lies in a rumored ancient weapon hidden on a lost world. The small, peaceful planet of Yamato holds the key to unlocking and utilizing said weapon. To secure their interests, the Emperor and his talented son--Prince Victor--venture to the planet to obtain the key: Prince Yuuri of Yamato. Knowing that any resistance could mean endangering his homeworld, Prince Yuuri and his family agree to the Emperor's terms. But he has foreseen this day coming and he will not go along with their plans as quietly as the Empire may expect him to.

What he hasn't foreseen, however, is the unlikely bond he develops with Prince Victor--a man he should be destined to hate, but finds he cannot.

If only galactic politics and ancient secrets didn't get in the way of love.

(A slow-burn, space-adventure AU in which there is advanced technology as well as magic.)

2.) Tessellation (Status: Incomplete) – Teen

Genres: Retelling, Victor PoV

It started at the banquet--the day Victor's life dramatically changed course. And from there, it was all uphill.

A Victor-POV project that follows the show episodically, for the most part. In other words: the show from Victor's point of view.

[fangirlfiles1]

Making Contact Part 4

Summary: Humans!AU. Roman and Logan are professional ghost hunters. They get a call from Patton and Virgil about a ghost problem but it may turn out to be more than they can handle. There’s something weird about this Virgil kid, and will Roman even survive this?

Honestly it’s better than it sounds, please give it a chance. If you read any of my writing, let it be this!

Warnings: This gets pretty intense and dark. A lot of blood, wounds, trauma, abuse of many kinds, guns, etc. If I need to tag anything else let me know. Basically if you’re looking to be stressed and enjoy some angst, here you go!

Spoilery TW: Hospital, parental abuse, car crash

Part one is here

Part two is here

Part three is here

Roman’s arm felt cold. That was strange. He let his eyes open a fraction, blinking as light flooded into his vision. He looked down to see a needle in the crook of his elbow, dripping IV fluids into his bloodstream. He felt better than he had before, less numb and more awake. There were familiar voices shouting from just outside the closed door.

“Oh, you’re awake!” He turned his head to see Patton sitting in a chair near the window. His eyes were red, like he had been crying. Roman couldn’t blame him. He had gotten a lot more than he signed up for. “How are you feeling?”

“Fan-flipping-tastic actually. I may have superpowers now,” Roman joked, trying to make Patton smile. “You?”

“I’ve been better.” Patton shrugs with a weak smile, but it was something. He looked toward the small window in the door, “Logan and Virgil have been fighting for a while now, I made them leave when they started yelling. I didn’t want them to wake you up.”

“What are they fighting about?”

“Verge won’t let anyone check him out to make sure he’s okay, and he keeps saying that he needs to go home. Logan says he’s being ‘ridiculously illogical.’” He accentuated his impression of Logan with air quotes and a deep voice. He sighed before standing and clapping his hands together. “Alrighty then. I’ll bring them back in here!”

Roman watched as Patton poked his head through the door and told them to come back in the room. Virgil pushed his way past him. He was wearing his hoodie again, his hands shoved as far into his pockets as they would go and his shoulders raised. His hoodie must have been packed in the messenger bag that hung over his shoulder. He was clearly in quite the huff as he plopped himself down into the chair and pulled one leg up to his chest, arm wrapped tightly around it. His fingers tapped aggressively against his ankle as he avoided eye contact with Roman.

Logan was much more composed. He straightened his tie and gave Patton a curt nod, heading directly toward the bed. Roman cringed inwardly at the sight of the blood on his shirt. It was wet, like he had tried to clean it off but it was already stained.

“As it turns out, it wasn’t as bad as I initially thought. In fact, your syncopal ep-” Logan stopped himself, and restarted. “Your passing out was more due to stress and dehydration than blood loss. You’ve been given IV fluids to rehydrate you and they’ve given you dissolvable stitches. You should make a full recovery with minimal scarring. Though they did question me about the strange qualities of the wound. You have minor electrical burns around the entrance point from the modifications I’ve made to the bullets. Why that didn’t cauterize the wound I’m not sure but--”

“For the record, I don’t plan on being your test subject again anytime soon.” Roman interrupted. Logan always rambled on when he was stressed, and now he seemed like he was reaching his breaking point. “Thanks for worrying about me, Lo.”

“Alright, he’s fine. Can we go now?” Virgil grumbles from the corner next to Patton, finally making eye contact as he chewed on the skin of his thumb. He looked desperate to leave, like every fiber of his being needed to go back into that house. Roman couldn’t figure out why. That man would just hurt him again and again, why would he want to go back?

“Roman needs more time to rest,” Patton says quietly. He sounded almost guilty.

Virgil let out an exasperated groan and stood to pace around the room. “I need to go back.”

“No. You are not returning to that house. Not until everything is taken care of.” Logan visibly tensed with frustration, over pronouncing every word like he had already said it a thousand times. Which, if what Patton said was true, he probably had.

“You don’t understand!” He gripped at his hair before quickly smoothing it out again, his pacing increasing in speed. How many times was he going to say that they didn’t understand before he actually explained why? “It’s not safe here.”

“Yes. It is. Ghosts can’t wander far from what they’re tethered to. I’ve already explained this.”

“I know!” Virgil shouted, ready to fight again.

“Tell me why.” Roman said, causing them to turn towards him. Virgil stared for a moment, blinking in confusion.

“What?” Virgil asked.

“Tell me why. If it’s a good reason, we’ll take you back.” Roman shrugged, instantly regretting it when pain flashed through his shoulder.

“Roman, we can’t--” Logan began, but Roman interrupted him.

“Just hold on, Logan. I know there’s a reason.” It had to be something about his ability, there had to be more to the story. Roman felt the anticipation growing in his stomach, hoping for something to hold onto, something more than just what he had seen. Which could have all been a hallucination with everything else going on. Something inside of him knew that it was real though, the heat that he felt when Virgil touched him was too intense to not be real.

“I…” Virgil hesitated, looking around at everyone who was now staring at him. He sent a pleading glance to Roman, like he was begging to not have to explain, but Roman just gave him a small nod to continue. He tapped his fingers together, practically vibrating with anxious energy. “I never said you were wrong, Logan… You’re right, actually. But…”

“It’s okay,” Patton spoke up. “You can tell us anything.”

“It’s just--The ghosts are connected to... me,” he finally said, immediately closing his eyes tightly, waiting for some form of backlash.

“What do you mean?” Logan asked slowly, crossing his arms. Roman could almost see the gears turning in his head, trying to put together the pieces of this puzzle. They had never had a case of ghosts being tethered to a person before. To objects and places, yes, but never an actual living person. Was it even possible?

“I mean... if we stay here much longer, they’ll be here too.” Virgil opened his eyes again, subtly moving closer to Roman. Logan looked lost in thought, completely oblivious to anything outside of his own brain. Virgil’s hand hovered over Roman’s for a moment, silently asking to show him what he could see. Roman nodded and instantly his vision flashed into that familiar white heat before it faded, but he was surprised to see that it wasn’t the same grey that it had been before. Everything looked pretty much the same, in fact. He looked up at Virgil, who glanced toward the back corner of the room, behind Logan. A darkness was growing there, shadowy tendrils reaching out into the room. It was moving. It felt as if it was breathing.

“Well, that’s good enough reason for me,” Roman said as Virgil pulled his hand away and the shadows faded.

“This doesn’t make sense,” Logan muttered to himself. “A ghost has to be intensely bonded to something to be able to tether itself to it…”

“I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand what’s going on,” Patton sighed, removing his glasses to rub at his eyes. The lights flickered above him and everyone stilled.

“We have to go. Now.” Virgil commanded, more in control than Roman had ever seen him. Maybe he wasn’t such a kid afterall.

Logan snapped to action, helping Roman detach himself from the medical equipment. Patton stood, looking for some way to help but finding nothing. Roman looked around for his shirt but it was gone. The doctors probably had to take it off when they were treating him. It was a bummer, he liked that shirt.

“Now, Roman!” Virgil growled, grabbing onto his hand and pulling him out of the bed. The room had darkened to that familiar grey and the shadow in the corner reached out across the ceiling. It was pulsing now, as if something were pushing hard against it, trying to break through. Patton followed closely behind Logan and Virgil pulled Roman along behind him as they ran through the hallways of the hospital. A nurse shouted after them but they were already in the elevator and mashing the button to close the doors. Virgil leaned back against the wall of the elevator as they descended but winced and quickly straightened himself. “We should be fine as long as we keep moving.”

Patton was panting, leaning forward with a hand on the wall. He brushed the hair out of his face and asked, “will someone please explain what’s going on?”

Virgil hesitated for a moment, biting his lower lip hard. “I’ll explain when we’re driving.”

They rushed out of the elevator the moment the doors opened, heading straight for Roman’s beat up red sedan. He grabbed at the driverside door but Logan stopped him. “You are on far too many narcotics to drive.”

Roman huffed but climbed into the back seat next to Virgil. The leather seats were cold against his back, and he muttered to himself, “I really need a new shirt.”

Virgil rummaged through his bag and pulled out a black t-shirt. He handed it to Roman, who blinked back at him in confusion. He shrugged, “I go through a lot of shirts.”

Roman carefully pulled on the shirt, trying to move his hurt shoulder as little as possible. Patton twisted in his seat, staring expectantly at Virgil. He looked so helpless, and maybe even a bit broken. All three of them knew more about ghosts than they should, but Patton had just made a call. He didn’t deserve any of this. He had seen more blood and fear than he had probably seen in his life, and the whole time he had just been following behind Logan, trying to figure out what was going on. “Please, explain.”

Virgil gripped at the sleeves of his hoodie, nervously pulling them over his palms. “I don’t really know how to explain without starting from the beginning…”

Logan pulled the car out of the parking lot, “I’m not going back to that house until we know what’s going on. I’m going to drive until you finish explaining.”

Virgil hung his head in his hands. “Okay. Look, I’m just going to come right out and say it. I… I can see ghosts.”

“You what?” Patton squeaked.

“Just let me explain, okay?”

They drove aimlessly as he spoke. Roman couldn’t look away from him, watching his nervous habits and listening intently. When he had said he would start from the beginning, he wasn’t lying.

His father had wanted him dead from the moment he was born. As soon as they touched him, they knew that something was off about him, something unnatural. His mother was determined to keep him, and she protected him from everything as he grew up. He was a child, but he remembered his father screaming at him to stop messing with his head, grabbing him and shaking him. He remembered his mother always picking him up and taking the hits herself.

When he was five, there was a fire. He was old enough to know to run outside in the event of a fire, but too young to know that his father had set it, locking himself inside a room with his mother. He was too young to think to save her. He was put into foster care after that. He bounced around from home to home, each one sending him off to the next the moment that they discovered that touching him made them see things. He had been lucky that none of them were brave enough to tell anyone else for fear of insanity.

Roman realized how mechanic Virgil’s voice sounded, like he was somewhere else, distancing himself from his own story.

He learned to never let anyone touch him, no matter the circumstances, and he was smart enough not to tell anyone that his parents were still with him. It wasn’t until he turned eight that people started dying around him. It started with a boy his age, his first real friend. They had woken up one morning and he was lying dead in his bed. The coroner said he died of natural causes, but Virgil knew otherwise. The kid had told him what had happened himself days after.

The family suspected Virgil had done something but there was never any evidence. They sent him to a new family, one with a ten year old girl. It wasn’t long until she was dead too, another friend to add to his growing collection. But he had never wanted this. He pleaded for his father to stop, but he would grab him and tear through his skin with sharp claws as he shook him again and again.

It wasn’t until he was thirteen and yet another boy, older this time, died that the authorities began to get suspicious. They worked tirelessly to find some shred of evidence that Virgil was killing the kids but there was nothing. Virgil had even tried to get himself locked away, but a confession meant nothing when it was coming from a minor with no evidence to support the claim. He moved from family to family until he was fifteen and he landed in the nicest home he had ever seen. A rich family with a twenty year old son going through college, looking for something to give them purpose.

The parents ignored him, unless there was potential for him to get adopted and make them feel like they had done something good in the world, but Patton quickly became an older brother to him. Virgil knew what was going to happen if he didn’t do something, so he made his father an offer. He would keep his mouth shut. He would never reveal his secret and he would look the other way when a new soul appeared around him. He would protect his father while he grew more and more powerful, as long as he didn’t take anyone that he knew. To his surprise, the offer worked and his father took the deal.

Eventually he was told that he wasn’t wanted anymore, that he was a lost cause, and to get out of the house for good. They didn’t send him back into the system. They kicked him out onto the streets at sixteen.

“Wait. No,” Patton interrupted, and Roman realized that he was crying. “They told me you were adopted while I was on summer vacation.”

“Of all the things you just heard, including the fact that you were almost murdered by the ghost of my dead father, that is what you focus on?” Virgil looked up, looking as if he had broken out of a deep trance.

“Wait, so you never got adopted at all? Ever?”

“No,” Virgil replied, the end coming up in a hesitant question mark.

Patton slammed his fist onto his thigh. “That’s it, I’m adopting you now.”

“Pat, I’m twenty-three, you can’t do that.” A small smile curled upward on Virgil’s face as he shook his head.

“It’s already done. You have no say in the matter!”

Virgil didn’t respond, his eyes widening as he stared out the window past Roman’s head. Roman turned to look, seeing another vehicle passing them on the left. Virgil shot forward in his seat, “Logan look out!”

Suddenly the vehicle cut in front of theirs. Logan swerved, but he wasn’t fast enough. They clipped the corner of the other vehicle’s back bumper and everything started spinning. It was over in seconds, the sound of tires squealing rang in Roman’s ears as they skidded to a stop. Luckily they had spun off the shoulder of the road and not into oncoming traffic. He pressed a hand to his forehead and groaned. The past 48 hours had not gone well for him. His shoulder throbbed beneath the seat belt.

He looked around at the others, trying to slow his heart rate. Logan and Patton seemed shaken but alright, but Virgil was gone. The door hung open. Where was he? Roman unbuckled his seatbelt and clambered out of the car, rushing to find him. His knees shook. The other vehicle was upside down in the bushes, shattered glass lay around it. Virgil was kneeling in the glass, prying open the driver’s side door.

“Virgil!” Roman called, rushing to his side.

He didn’t respond, grabbing frantically at the driver’s bloody face. He was crying “No, no, no, please.”

“Verge it’s okay, he’ll be okay just hold on.” He glanced back at their own vehicle and saw Logan on the phone. “Logan’s already called 911, they’ll be here soon. They’ll help him.”

Virgil bent forward, coughing in between sobbing breaths, his fists scraping against the ground and shards of glass. His forehead pressed into his fists. Spit dripped from his mouth onto the dirt as he tried to breathe through clenched teeth.

“Hey, it’ll be okay, he’ll be fine,” Roman reached out to gently grab Virgil’s hand. He braced himself for the shock, but he wasn’t prepared for what he saw. The man was split in two at the waist, one half painfully still and the other staring wide eyed at his own hands. He ripped away from the rest of himself and turned around. He blinked at his own body, hanging upside down and lifeless. There was a heavy darkness inside the car. Remnants of smoke-like shadows pouring from the broken windows. This was the man’s doing, Virgil’s father. “Oh.”

Virgil’s fists ground further into the dirt as he sobbed, muttering “I’m sorry” over and over again.

Roman took a deep breath and closed his eyes for a moment, pushing the image of the man’s dead body out of his mind so he could focus completely on Virgil. He grabbed his hand tighter and wrapped an arm around his shoulders, gently trying to pull him away from the scene, but he wouldn’t budge. “This isn’t your fault, not at all. Okay?”

Virgil shook his head against his fists as another sob shook his body. He pressed his palms to the dirt and sat up, tears running down his face as he forced himself to make eye contact with the new spirit.

“Hey,” Roman whispered, moving his fingers from Virgil’s hand to press against his wet cheek. He gently pulled his face towards him, “don’t look at him, okay? Look at me.”

Virgil stared back at Roman, panic frozen in his eyes.

“This isn’t your fault, okay? You didn’t do this. You’ve done nothing wrong. Ever. Do you hear me?” Roman felt his heart breaking. Virgil had never looked so young, so helpless and terrified. He pulled him closer, forgetting about his shoulder and wincing as Virgil’s forehead pressed against his bandages. His shirt tugged where Virgil gripped the material tightly with shaking hands. Roman suddenly realized that this was probably the first time anyone had hugged Virgil since he was a child and he pulled him even closer into himself.

“It’s not your fault,” Roman said as he and the new spirit stared at each other. “It’s not your fault.”

[theworldgate]

Now that I’m done with the avatar change, some somewhat spoilery thoughts on the epilogues are due!

And some non-spoilery ones first: Both of them are ‘creepy’ for want of a better word, though this seems to be mostly intentional (the more “wait is this meant to be creepy or not” stuff is in Candy; I can’t recall something like that in Meat). Like, I suppose this is a somewhat spoilery thing but also there’s a massive wall of trigger warnings, and it comes before the choice for a reason.

I think Meat sticks the landing better.

I hope you aren’t too attached to two particular Alpha Kids <laughs in ‘literally just changed my avatar from one>. I think it’s compensating for the actions of them in ‘canon’ that didn’t age well, and I’ll stop before getting into spoiler territory.

Gamzee makes everything terrible.

Seriously, Meat is pretty solid, though I can see why it’s polarizing. I’m not sure I want to read it again, but I’m also not sure that I don’t.

The second part of that sentence doesn’t really apply to Candy. I think it does provide some key context. Probably. But meh, a lot of it isn’t my sort of thing, and there’s a plotline kind of but it doesn’t go anywhere.

There are strong satirical elements and the issue is that, especially in Candy, it gets a bit muddled as to, like, how satirical it is.

This one is a spoiler a bit, but I think putting it above the cut is in the same spirit as the warning tags: there might also need to be one for Gaslighting.

There is a LOT of content there; that I finished it within a few hours reflects that I have the literal exact reading speed that Spencer Reid from Criminal Minds brags about when it comes to fiction. Also ngl I did kind of skim some of the relationship stuff in Candy. But also there being a lot of content means that this is not going to be comprehensive.

Not to mention that there are some explicit callbacks that could really do with links.

And into the spoilery stuff:

Honestly, you would think Vriska would have a bigger role given that there are 8 epilogues in each? She also provides one of the “I think this is meant to be creepy but I can’t tell???” moments in Candy. (well, I mean (Vriska), but the one who wasn’t in brackets during the canon but acquires them)

The Gamzee ‘redemption arc’ stuff really did not need to be dragged throughout the literal entire Candy epilogues. I mean, the core of the joke is pretty funny (it’s very dark humour, but still), but it’s eggs it a bit too much and Alive Calliope’s rationale for it is confusing and seriously Jane went full fash like 10 chapters before, have her do something to get him out the story before that. Like, it’s sort of what I got mad at wildbow for what (I thought) he was doing with March in Ward late last month, except if March also did nothing actually plot relevant and was just there being obnoxious. I mean, I’m glad the Homestuck comparisons still stand (though I think the content of Candy in particular vindicates Wildbow for drawing his lines where he does as far as sex stuff goes).

Oh, yeah, right. Jane went full fash. Twice. In one timeline I’d actually be willing to chalk it up to “yeah, this is a Dirk idea”, but he full on removed himself from the timeline (... suicide feels like an odd word when it’s not-unlikely that that Dirk did it in order to merge with Dirk Prime) and she just kept at it. Her actions, and the responses of the cast to it (universal horror by the end) definitely fall into the things I was thinking about with the level of satire being muddied. I can sort of see the point, but I think Hussie Hussied too hard and... it does actually read like a not-terrible-but-not-great-edgy-AU fanfic now I think about it. Like, the resistance is totally a stock fanfic setting for Homestuck. Huh.

Also, like... poor Jake and Tavros.

It actually nails Kanaya’s voice reasonably well? Which, yeah, makes sense, Promstuck is like the only fic I can think of that features her heavily and actually pulls it off (she is... not lacking in smoothness, but also not particularly interested in being a force of seduction), and from urbanAnchorite’s other fics I’m pretty sure that’s down to cephied_variable.

And that actually does bring us to our sometime narrator of Meat: Dirk. He’s actually a pretty well written villain. Very much in the Lord English vein which, like, makes sense given his handling of Caliborn and how the latter seemed to like him. Said handling was also the thing I meant yesterday by the “this shows the danger of humouring assholes”. But, y’know, there’s an element of assuming Dirk is memeing when he isn’t that is also very present here now. And, y’know, not exactly lacking in cultural relevance given that, again, Jane went full fash and at least some of the rationalisations for it were provided by him.

The other narrator of Meat is pretty chill, though leaving us hanging was kind of a dick move not gonna lie.

Oh god yeah, poor Jake again. Dirks is such an asshole. I mean, I can’t say enough how well written his assholery is, but that doesn’t, like, make him not an inutterable asshole.

I am not particularly qualified to comment on the Roxy gender stuff (beyond “the pivot to he/him is literally something I’ve had several AFAB NB friends do, though usually accompanied by a name change”. Although I will probably just avoid using pronouns for Roxy unless I mean specifically Meat Roxy or Candy Roxy since I think they (plural) did ultimately settle on different approaches to their gender(s? I think they’re both agender (like, specifically; Candy!Roxy very much reminds me of agender people I know) due to being the same person but go very different ways about it due to life circumstance stuff; I imagine Candy!Roxy would consider herself a woman for sociological purposes, but I very much doubt that Meat!Roxy would do the same himself).

Back on Candy discussion - there’s definitely a narrator, and actually maybe the final bit of Meat before the postscript (which follows on from Candy and likewise Candy’s is the immediate follow through on Meat) implies that it’s Dead!Calliope, but then the stuff that makes me think it has a particular speaker (before Dead!Calliope outright says so) makes me think otherwise. I know I both briefly thought Rose and then encountered some stuff that made it make less sense for it to be Rose (even ascended robot Rose, even if that would provide a neat symmetry to Dirk’s hostile narrative takeover+desire). It’s also a lot more... heterosexual than Meat, which makes me wonder if it’s Dead!Caliborn, but dead!Caliborn wouldn’t care about seeming sexist in this one line early on. Rose totally would despite being (as far as I can tell) a woman. Hmm...

Actualy, rereading the Meat postscript, I’m more sure that Candy is... not so much non-canon, as utterly orthogonal to the main storyline. Or it is now.

I mean, at least some of it will intersect; it gives us background for davebot for starters. Actually, given the treatment of robots as frequently de-facto nb but happy to roll with gendered pronouns (a la Candy!Roxy; I believe Mark Rosewater has said that this is broadly how Karn (the silver golem) thinks of himself, for example).

Okay, so I’m also 90% sure that Barack Obama is not actually the real Barack Obama, but that doesn’t give me any insight as to who created the fake Obama in order to get Dave to turn into Davebot. Unless it’s literally actually Jake because he does have some random robotics skill, and Jake is also a hope player. Plus Jake also used his Hope powers briefly in Candy I think? Which was near the end and I think possible precipitated it. But, like, Jake would have to have a reason for that, and I don’t think “Jane is a genocidal maniac” would prompt that specific response.

Speaking of an English... did Lord English take over the narrative of Meat briefly? I kind of kept hopping up above the line to add extra non-spoilery thoughts. Or acceptably spoilery thoughts. Like, the sort of thoughts that amounted to making the very intentional trigger warnings clearer. So, uh, I’m on about the callback to the vine thing. That thing. Plus some other stuff.

Another cognitive aid might have been a few drawings (I don’t think it needs full on panels, but just to make it clear where certain scenes take place), though I get why they wanted to avoid illustrating some of it.

[shadowsong26x]

Lavinia for the character meme thing!

All righty then! Putting this behind a cut because somewhat spoilery (though, probably her Major Plot Points aren’t super hard to guess, between various other commentaries I’ve made/tropes I’ve mentioned liking/I think I’ve hinted at it/foreshadowed okay at least in bonus content?) and also Long.

favorite thing about them

Not necessarily my absolute favorite thing, but it has a nice Flipside so…

She thinks things through. She does her absolute best to gather appropriate information and make sure she’s prepared for the situations she’ll find herself in, including researching from as broad a collection of sources as she can. She considers all the consequences of her actions, and she never forgets that, because she is who she is and she has the abilities and position she does, her actions can have Consequences. And she learned how to do most of this processing fast. She is fast and she is well-informed, and at the end of the day she will do what is necessary, in service of the galaxy and her larger goals, but she will be sure it is necessary, and that the consequences are acceptable, given what she stands to gain.

least favorite thing about them

Of course, the flipside of this is that she overthinks everything. And I mean, e v e r y t h i n g. Like I said, she learned how to overthink very quickly, because her father wouldn’t tolerate her being paralyzed by those doubts, but that also means that she never really learned how to trust herself and her judgment and be confident in her decisions. This leads to some pretty epic screwups in her personal life, and also her shying away from certain things, particularly her own abilities with the Force beyond passive observation and occasionally assisting her more mundane manipulation with a Mind Trick or two (unless she’s desperate enough to completely unleash, which leads to her pulling off things like battle meditation; which might save her and her allies once or twice, but that kind of all-or-nothing/rigid but brittle control is Not Good in the long run.)

(Again, this is not necessarily my absolute least favorite/what I would consider her most negative trait, because a lot of that is situational, but, well, it’s situational. Her ability/habit of thinking things through and putting a lot of effort into her choices is both a good thing and a bad thing, and it’s the trait I could write up most clearly from both sides.)

favorite line

The problem with answering this question is most of the ones I can think of are somewhat spoilery Wham lines, and also require a fair amount of context to explain why they’re my favorites. And/or come from miscellaneous AUs that also require a fair amount of setup…

So, I’m going to go with one that’s from an AU of Masks!verse, in reference to Luke:

“Oh, you poor boy. Try not to let your excess of compassion get you killed. The universe needs more men like you.”

brOTP

Depending on the AU/context/point in time (and I am excluding non-fusion crossovers here), Luke, Kallus, Thrawn, Pellaeon (…who maybe shouldn’t count, because he’s more Dad, but he’s one of the most important people in her life and their relationship is 9000% platonic so), Mara, Leia, Ventress (…also kind of a weird example, because the main way it applies is Ventress as her mentor/teacher/etc. which may not be the best application of brOTP? But, again, v. important relationship and entirely platonic when it comes up).

OTP

Lando and/or Sabine.

Lando because they complement each other in some interesting ways–they’re both talented administrators and good at reading/managing people, though Lando’s a lot better at one-on-one People slash dealing with people when it’s not Work, so to speak. But he tends to be a master of Xanatos Speed Chess/a case study in “Well That Escalated Quickly,” and she is Hyperprepared/very rarely makes a move unless it’s certain. I.e., see my first two answers, lol. So they balance each other out in that way.

Sabine because they started kind of flirting in the Handler AU and then it got super cute. Might also be a thing in the Pellaeon AU? Or another Masks!Verse AU that has a similar breakpoint to the Handler AU…anyway, the two of them getting together depends on some specific changes and timeline things, so it only works in certain AUs. That being said, they’re pretty cute/sweet together. Because we have Useless Lesbian Sabine and Only Flirts In Professional Lavinia and yeah.

nOTP

Luke. Like. There is no incarnation whatsoever, even if I’m not reading Luke as aro (he’s definitely ace, but aro–I go back and forth on whether he’s aromantic or panromantic but that’s another conversation), where that works. Even in at least one AU where he’s the biological father of her child (in an IVF/sperm donor situation, she asked him because he’s someone she trusts completely and also someone who would be completely okay with not being the kid’s dad and things/their relationship wouldn’t get Weird).

random headcanon

Lavinia’s favorite color is blue. Specifically in the aqua/teal/slightly-green-tinged family. She’s always considered herself more Coruscanti than Naboo, but maybe something deep inside her feels a connection to that peaceful, watery, living color or something.

…or possibly she just likes it and there’s no Deeper Meaning behind it, heh.

unpopular opinion

…lord. Uh. This one’s hard, since she is my OC and I haven’t published/posted a whole heck of a lot about her? So it’s hard to know what the popular opinions are, let alone what the unpopular ones are…

I guess in the spirit of this, there’s the fact that, deep at her core, she’s kind of an idealist? She believes in things, and in certain people. And she believes that, not only should the galaxy be a better place, but that it can be.

(possibly in the spirit of this because she’s also, like, a spy and a professional politician so there’s a lot of cynicism on the surface/covering up that idealism…)

song i associate with them

Quite a few actually. Hm, what’s one I haven’t necessarily shared with you yet…

…ehh, I’ll go with these two:

I may have actually shared this one with you before, but it’s still one of my favorites for her. At the end of her life, looking back on her life/taking stock.

And this one I’m pretty sure I haven’t shared. From a somewhat younger perspective, and also kind of a nostalgia bomb for me.

favorite picture of them

Let’s see…::digs through #lavinia tag:: …and most of these are just fashion photosets that fit her aesthetic, but here’s a couple pictures of her:

This is probably something along the lines of what she looks like in her early/mid-teens. I believe this is the actress who plays Lucrezia in the not-Jeremy Irons Borgias show that came out around the same time. Which is particularly entertaining to me because…

Grown-up Lani is Lotte Verbeek, particularly as Giulia Farnese in the other Borgias series XD

Anyway, most of the other ones I have saved are gifs, so these two it is.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn’t link the commission I got of her a couple years ago!