#sansa isn't attracted to adults

[melrosing]

the thing that annoys me the most about the bullying claim among the stark sisters is that they talk about how much it affects Arya that she thinks she’s ugly and such and like she does, but she’s so much more worried about being “bad” she killed a boy. She’s also going through poverty and war and starving and being introduced to cults/bands of “justice” by murder

but nooooo she totally is more affected by being called horse face despite being compared to SOOOOOO MANY PRETTY PEOPLE AND THAT MEANS SHES GOOD (never mind that good looking=good person should NOT BE YOUR BASIS)

I think most people, and especially girls, know exactly how it feels to worry about your appearance and feel ugly and unattractive, and I get that this is a particular pain for Arya, who apparently has never been called pretty except by her dad one time in AGOT, in an offhanded comparison to her aunt Lyanna. I don't think attractiveness is the most important thing to validate in any child, but I do think that it is good and nice to affirm to your child that they have their own beauty, so that they can then negotiate their relationship with that word from a safer place in adulthood.

It's not about telling your child they don't look a certain way (e.g. no good telling Brienne she's a normal height and her nose is hardly crooked at all), but that the way they look is something unique to them and something they should take pride in, regardless of what others say. Like I think it's an OOC moment in the show, but I think it's sweet when Olenna tells Brienne she looks 'marvellous' or something. She's not saying 'you look like bella hadid', she's saying 'I love the way you look!' to a woman who has received nothing but insults (despite looking like fuckin. Gwendoline Christie lmao). that is nice. it's not the most important compliment anyone can receive, but it embraces divergence as positive.

as it goes though, Arya is a pretty girl and it's just weird that the adults found countless compliments for Sansa and none for Arya. and that's why I find it so bizarre that everyone wants to pin Arya's self-esteem issues on Sansa, a prepubescent child!! like, would Arya have taken these insults so hard if Cat had stepped in and said 'don't listen, you're a lovely girl and your father says you look just like your aunt Lyanna! sansa i am telling you off for calling people names'. children are always going to call each other mean names! it is one thing that is practically guaranteed to happen in any sibling relationship, and anyone who says otherwise is an only child or lying.

but it is much harder for a child to manage that hurt if they're getting called those names, and society seems to be reifying to truth of them at every turn! Septa Mordane is calling her ugly! Cat is calling her a mess! Ned has never complimented her till AGOT! etc! she has never received a compliment before! so how on earth can you say 'and Arya's self-esteem issues can all be traced back to the playground bickering between she and Sansa and Jeyne' when Arya is obviously getting the same message from what seem like far more authoritative sources! is it not worse that those sources are all complimenting Sansa all the time and never Arya? does that not make it worse when Sansa acts like a child about it? like!!

and yeah I agree that there are other more painful insecurities Arya is struggling with. I do think at least part of the reason that this argument keeps coming up in fandom is that people keep trying to claim that Arya's story is similar to Brienne's, in that she IS ugly according to society's standards and that's ok! which isn't true, Arya is canonically a pretty kid with a dirty face and unbrushed hair. that's all it is. so if we could just accept that, there'd be no excuse for the insistence that this is an important aspect of Arya's story.

because it isn't. like im sorry but the ugly duckling means nothing when there are plenty of people who don't grow up to be swans. they get called ugly as children, and they get called ugly as adults. look at Brienne: she has suffered far, far worse prejudice as a result of her appearance in childhood, and she doesn't get the catharsis of growing up pretty to show them all how wrong they were. Brienne has been treated like a fucking monster for how she looks, all of her life. this is a character for whom her appearance IS actually an important theme, and it will be meaningful to see her realise it's a strength, and find love etc. I'm sorry but Arya growing up to be beautiful doesn't mean shit to me lol. I fully accept it's canon, but it is not a meaningful story beat, in a story with people like Tyrion, Brienne and Sam. Arya's story has so many more fascinating themes about identity, trauma, justice, war, friendship and family. if Arya was pretty all along, why should I care?

[agentrouka-blog]

Hello. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the idea that GRRM shut down Sansa/Sandor isn't accurate.

When you watch the interview, what GRRM did was express surprise that the ship, and the character of Sandor Clegane, had become so enormously popular. He made the comment during a time, many years ago, when it was the biggest ship in the ASOIAF fandom and most Sansa fans shipped it. If you weren't in the fandom at that time, it's probably hard to imagine how ubiquitous the ship was, but it WAS ubiquitous, and popular, to the point where GRRM expressed surprise over it. But he did not at any point shut it down.

In fact, he rather did the opposite. This next part of his answer is always ignored by haters of the ship, but after expressing his surprise, he went on to acknowledge that the show did "play with it a bit" and that "I did too, in the books." These quotes, in all their fullness and context, are easily found in online videos of the interview.

I'm not a fan of the ship. There are many reasons to hate it. I'm not arguing that it will be Sansa's endgame, either.

But I do believe in being honest and genuine and not putting words in GRRM's mouth to make him say what we want him to say. He has never, to this day, dismissed or shut down Sansa/Sandor.

There's indeed a video where he addresses it, and the very fact that he so openly addresses it... shuts it down as a genuine avenue of speculation, honestly.

He says he "played with it", but when you look at the page, what he has shown is the Hound sexually harrassing and later assaulting Sansa, and Sansa inventing a trauma-induced less terrifying reinterpretation of this event, turning his "song" rape-metaphor and the blade at her throat into "he took a song and a kiss".

That's not romantic. That's an adult creeping on a child. That IS a form of "playing with" a sexualized dynamic between these two characters. But. It's a one-sided "attraction" of an adult to a child, and he cannot stop emphasizing his surprise at how women are eating this up as "romantic", like none of that is contradictory in any way.

Like, no, he didn't say "They are definitely not getting together in the books", but it seems to me that many take the same view as the female interviewer who, in fact, contradicts GRRM himself by repeating how she thinks it's "fascinating" or "it has crossed her mind". The male interviewer interjects that the show played with that imagery, and GRRM agrees that so did he, but that doesn't mean he supports the intended reading as actually romantic. Like, the support there is not coming from the author but from the sansan-shipping female interviewer.

[stheresya]

lotte verbeek is the only actress i can fancast as adult sansa because i think she embodies the graceful noble woman from a distant past really well and she knows how to rock a curly red hair, and also because of her forehead. women with big foreheads were considered very attractive in medieval times, and sansa is considered very beautiful to westerosi beauty standards so i personally like to imagine her as being somewhat the ideal of medieval beauty (even if asoiaf isn't a series that strives for historical accuracy), so in my mind sansa has a big forehead. which makes lotte verbeek THE adult sansa. to me.

[aidansplaguewind]

I saw something that pissed me off today and I need to vent about it somewhere.

I saw fans of Petyr Baelish, fans who love him and want to fuck him, talking shit about Petyr and Sansa shippers. Saying he's a p3d0 and I know they're insinuating we're morally corrupt for shipping them.

First, most Petyr and Sansa shippers didn't ship them until the show, they don't ship them in the books where she's 11 years old(the books you mofos love to bring up when a PxS discussion occurs). Sansa in the show is older and while, yes, she's young and it's creepy, she is past puberty, therefore, show Petyr is NOT a p3d0. P3d0s like children before puberty and it's absolutely foul and disgusting and yes, it is WAY worse than wanting to fuck a teenager. I don't care how you twist it. I have a teenage son and teenagers are horny as hell so the possibility of them getting involved with someone older isn't out of this world. My teenage son looks like a man and while yes, it would piss me off to no end for an adult to sink their claws into him, the idea of an adult going after my much younger son who looks like a child, would make me want to do unimaginable things to that person. There is a huge difference in a person who is sexually attracted to children and someone who is attracted to a person who is still mentally and legally a child, but has an adult's body.

Mostly though, I wanted to say this, those of you I'm speaking of are absolutely no better than us shippers are. If you are saying that we are morally fucked in real life because we ship two people who don't exist, then I'm going to go ahead and judge you based on real life. And you're basically saying, "I don't approve of this p3d0 and him liking a young girl but I love him and I'm going to turn my head cuz my pu$$y wants him."

So, yeah, you wanna bang the man you're calling a p3d0 but just don't wanna know about him doing a younger girl, but that's cool, right? I don't know about y'all, but in real life, I sure as shit wouldn't love and want to fuck a man I thought was a p3d0.

But hey, I can separate fantasy from reality, unlike you guys. So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you wouldn't love a p3d0 in real life, right?

Fucking hypocrites. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[esther-dot]

I truly can't understand the cognitive dissonance of some sans*n shippers. Some of them genuinely hate Littlefinger, consider him a creep, a pedophile, etc. But then they ship Sandor with Sansa, when he's also a creep, has also abused Sansa, with added physical violence, and is just 3 years younger than LF. I genuinely don't get the thought process there.

I didn't know this was common, but I would guess that this is because the Hound is attractive to readers in a way that LF isn't and hits on certain tropey ideas that do it for them. LF may save Sansa from KL with a scheme, but the Hound physically rescuing Sansa from the rioters is similar to something people have likely read in romances, so it registers in a different way. He's strong, scarred, and traumatized, that's romantic hero shit that LF doesn't have. So even though they're both adults who sexually harass her, the ethos of the different guys makes certain readers process it differently.

Another factor is probably that we've all come to different conclusions about the moral framework of Martin's story, and since he's not writing within the modern ideas of age of consent, I think fans take that and run to other conclusions about how he views consent overall and teen/adult relationships. But the biggest factor is probably that Martin admitted that he was playing with the Beauty and the Beast thing with the Hound and Sansa. Since he was surprised people shipped them, obviously he didn't mean for that to indicate we shouldn't be horrified by the Hound's actions toward Sansa, or to indicate that Sansa reciprocated his interest, or that they'd be endgame, but if you pick up on that and don't look into all the different ways he's using that trope (I started to talk about it over here , it pops up everywhere), it would be easy to conclude it's his dark version of that dynamic.

[sayruq]

Every child marriage in asoiaf is written negatively (Dany, Sansa, Jeyne, lysa). The only adult-child relationship that is not abusive(Correct me if I am wrong) is Dany/daario, where Dany is not dependent on daario and has power and agency at that point in her life.

So I don't know why people think it's typical of grrm to write a adult/child relationship and spin it positively. I'm talking of sansan and RxL. Sansan dreams can only be fulfilled in fanfiction while RxL is just a horror story.

[even dany and daario is abusive because she's a child and he constantly ignores her boundaries.]

i think it's the sheer volume of adults marrying, raping, and being attracted to children that makes people think the books endorse it and the fact that grrm's writing in certain situations just isn't good. he is capable of introducing a very minor character and making them seem human in a few sentences, but when it comes to a lot of the minor characters who are victims of paedophilia and such, the writing is lacking especially if they are a female character.

compare lancel's ordeal at the hands of cersei, and how it destroys him and the care grrm takes while showing this, to jeyne poole in adwd. jeyne's suffering works to serve theon more than her. just like lancel, she's not a pov character but lancel seems young, naive and overwhelmed by everything and after his injury, when his body is breaking down and he leaves for castle darry, there's such a heartbreaking air around him. we see his suffering because we see him. jeyne is hidden from us until it is time for theon to get another nudge towards saving her. instead of the readers seeing her, we get the dogs and we get a greater focus on ramsay on how he is torturing her.

it gets worse if the character isn't white. compare the meagre work grrm does in jeyne poole to irri. does anything remember that one of drogo's bloodriders regularly rapes irri? is she allowed to be pain and traumatised on page? not really.

so to me it's both the fandom's fault for refusing to pick up on grrm's disapproval and grrm's fault for being so inconsistent that he gives those people room to ignore his disapproval.

[hellsbellschime]

House of the Dorks anon here, I was kind of surprised that you were like “I GUESS Willas/Sansa” bc I always saw that as a mirror of the Lannisters marrying Tyrion to Sansa. Both older men, disabled, the nominal heirs to their houses.

But anyhow, do you think the Night’s Watch is an intentional commentary on the prison industrial system?

It is a mirror to Tyrion but by all accounts (which aren't necessarily trustworthy) Willas at the very least is not the type of person who would be sexually attracted to a child/bitter that said child isn't into him, a whole ass adult man, at the ripe old age of 12. Look, SANSA'S PROSPECTS AREN'T THAT GREAT OKAY, I TAKE WHAT I CAN GET.

And yeah the Night's Watch thing definitely seems to have a lot of shades of the American prison industrial complex, I'd be shocked if GRRM didn't take any inspiration from that given that he is an American and it is such a massive aspect of our government/society.

[justadram]

I just finished Après-ski and it is fantastic!

I have a question that i didn't see among the comments of the story. How come Jon didn't know that Sansa and Harry had broken up?

Did they broke up recently, a few days or weeks before the trip? Or did they broke up months prior to the ski trip?

And how come Jon didn't know before the trip? Does he not meet and with the Starks on a regular basis, either due to work or because he isn't as close to them anymore, or did Sansa tell her siblings not to tell Jon about the break up?

Now if you'll excuse me, i'll have to go and read some more of your fics :)

Thank you! Always happy to answer fic questions. This one makes me think you're blessed enough to be young and see your friends regularly. ;) Enjoy it!

Yeah, no, it's a combo of things! It's fairly new. Less than a month. Recent enough that Jon hadn't picked up on it on social media. Of course, he's rarely on anyway. And while she asked everyone NOT to speak about the first break up--because Jon was at the center of it and she wasn't ready to have him know that--this one wasn't a secret.

Jon doesn't see Robb or Arya more than every couple months. Even less the bigger group. That's just adult life, saying let's hang out and not managing to find a workable date! They text a lot, but no one brought it up, because while they don't know that Sansa and Jon have actual history, they do know how they are together when they're both single. Group dynamic is a funny thing. I think Arya and Robb aren't against the idea, but they also don't think it would work out, since they don't really understand Jon and Sansa's attraction to each other. It isn't something they are looking to encourage--the weird flirtation. They're somewhat less encouraging than Gendry, who doesn't have the weight of decades of friendship hanging in the balance. ;)

[tweedfrog]

Not to bring up prettycourse again, but I think that neither Arya nor Sansa is pretty or ugly, they're both just kids. the only people who comment on Sansa's "beauty" are gross men preying on her, or adult women projecting their own insecurities and fears on to her. She's only 13 leave her be. And Arya isn't ugly, she's 11. Children aren't ugly, full stop.

Pretty course is just ALDKDBSLSHFSJALAK. On one hand I hate it because it's irritating as fuck and as you say creepy when it involves young teenage girls but on the other hand I totally get it because for women especially good looks is seen as like...something you have to have to be worthy as a human being?

We shouldn't be discussing how attractive children are or aren't because it shouldn't matter. These should be totally irrelevant to how important the characters are as people. But at the same time as a huge elia martell fan I've seen SO SO many people use elia being sick/frail and equate that to her being ugly and unworthy of Rhaegar (and by extension somehow deserving of what happened to her??!). And its just very fucked and ablest in so many ways.

Arya was bullied for not adhering to westerosi beauty standards and now she does and is in danger for it (idc what ppl want an 11 year old girl being offered a job as a courtesan is not safe or powerful). Sansa is beautiful by westerosi standards and is in danger due to it. These are both things that exist and I do wish we could have a discussion of this but its difficult to take a step back and weigh things like this objectively.

So my final verdict on prettycourse is that much like irl discussions of adhering to/not adhering to beauty standards it's going to go around in circles forever because regardless of how much we would like to live in a world that doesn't see attractiveness as the greatest character trait a woman can have and see "ugly" woman or girls are undeserving of basic human respect. That is the world we live in....and that's the world the women in asoiaf live in.

It's why I hate it when people roast Catelyn Stark for pointing out that Brienne is going to have it worse as an ugly women. This isn't Catelyn being a spiteful bitch this is her POINTING OUT SOMETHING VERY ACCURATE ABOUT THEIR SOCIETY AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT OUR SOCIETY TOO

[fedonciadale]

Sansan shippers: 3/6: Adult women who are attracted to damaged men and have no issue self inserting using a child 2/6: Arya stans who don’t want Sansa punished but want her brought lower than Arya as a punishment for crimes against their fav that they made up themselves 1/6: miscellaneous Sansabuts

Dear nonny,

You know I don't like the ship at all, like I really dislike it, because the Hound held a dagger to Sansa's throat and that should be a no- go relationshipwise. I wish I could unsee some of their art that romanticises this moment.

But you have to admit a) that people have fun with dark ships. b) that nobody is obliged to ship only what they would want in real life c) that the allure of the trope 'innocent and sweet girl saves bad man from himself' is very, very strong and d) that the shippers really really stay in their lane.

I've had run-ins with Dany and Arya stans and quite a lot with Jonerys shippers (who are for the most part inept at understanding tagging systems, be it on tumblr or AO3), but never with SanSans.

So, I don't have beef with SanSans. And I would say that I don't care about their ship or even if they self-insert. We all self-insert after a fashion. (Just look at pictures of GRRM as a young man and you know who is his self-insert). I can't relate to some self-inserts, but that's me. I am not about to tell people what they should ship. Imho almost any ship can be changed in such a way that it is not problematic. Let's take an example : if I happen to write a Hermione time-turner fic where she meets Tom Riddle before he started killing people. Is this a problematic story? I would argue that it isn't (and I am not into that ship). Or there might be a dark ship I like. If I consume and write stories about that, it might serve me to handle some of my fears for example.

So, adult Sansa with the Hound in a modern AU or even a canon bent AU is not my cup of tea, but there is no harm in it.

I would say that the problem does not lie in shipping, but in canon- shipping, in canon-shipping them as a happy and nice couple. The problem is to gloss over the huge problems the relationship has: He belittles Sansa, mocks her, threatens her with a dagger, almost raped her, and people interpret her nightmares of him as an awakening of sexual interest. And that is yikes.

I dislike it because it brushes off that he treats Sansa badly, that he tries to get a high out of destroying her innocence, that Sansa is not there to heal his trauma. SanSans disregard that the Hound might be interesting but is a side character. I dislike it because the tale of 'nice woman makes problematic man better' is a trope that makes real women fall into the trap of thinking that they have a chance of doing that. That this happens in real life.

So, I don't care about SanSan. They can do what they want and it doesn't bug me as long as they don't claim that a) it is a healthy ship or b) that it is 'practically' canon when GRRM himself was astonished that people ship it. One of the problems of the clusterfuck of season 8 is that many old theories have come to the light again that I thought would be safely buried, SanSan among them - when it should have died as a possible canon ship with the casting of the Hound.

In regard to the groups of shippers you named I would give them some benefit of the doubt. The first group you named might have a lot of head-canons that do not involve Sansa as a child (although I've seen some art where Sansa looks very young, but that can't be all shippers, can it). The second group, the Arya stans : you have a point there, some do think Sansa will be punished and lose her good looks and marry the Hound, but in my experience most Arya stans simply do not care enough. They don't think about who would actually be good for Sansa and just run with what a huge part of the fandom has accepted as 'practically' canon. As for the last group, the 'I love Sansa, but' crowd you are quite right. They want a Sansa with zero agency that is safely tugged away with a minor character - which does not threaten their main ship.

Thanks for the ask and sorry my answer got so long.

[masha-russia]

hey there! Saw the Lolita post and i LOVED your tag about Jorah and Daenerys and that's exactly what I think about this relationship too. That's not normal at all. Of course that aunt and nephew isn't a normal thing too but at least they DON'T know that hahahaha anyway, thank you for this magnificent tag

Hi :) Jorah’s feelings of lust towards Daenerys are not acceptable and GRRM does not condone them - the reader is meant to see them as negative. And thankfully Daenerys understood his behavior and even called him out on his predatory conduct:

“I honor and respect and cherish you — but I do not desire you, Jorah Mormont, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me, so I must needs rely on you and you alone. It will not serve, and it will not make me love you any better.”

Though she did that only after he forced himself on her and kissed her:

Ser Jorah slid his arms around her.

"Oh," was all Dany had time to say as he pulled her close and pressed his lips down on hers. He smelled of sweat and salt and leather, and the iron studs on his jerkin dug into her naked breasts as he crushed her hard against him. One hand held her by the shoulder while the other slid down her spine to the small of her back.

Daenerys gained agency and power when she hatched her dragons, and was able to escape the worst of Jorah’s Humbert Humbert side - he tried to persuade her to run away with him and place her in a situation where she would have been reliant on him alone.

“I am only a knight, and I have nothing to offer you but exile, but I beg you, hear me. Let Khal Drogo go. You shall not be alone. I promise you, no man shall take you to Vaes Dothrak unless you wish to go. You need not join the dosh khaleen. Come east with me. Yi Ti, Qarth, the JadeSea, Asshai by the Shadow. We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us. Please, Khaleesi.”

If she didn’t have her dragons ... I imagine her life after Khal Drogo’s death would have been similar to Lolita’s life after her mother died. She would have been dependent on him for a while, and he would have taken advantage of her, as Humbert took advantage of Dolores.

I do wonder if GRRM ever commented on, or was asked about, the influence of Nabokov’s story on ASOIAF? He explores the dynamic in which a teenage girl is sexually preyed on by an adult man with two of his main female characters (though all his female characters faced sexual abuse in one way or another)- Daenerys and Sansa. Daenerys has power and escapes her sexual predator, but Sansa is still in the clutches of hers.

Daenerys’ relation with Jorah is not at all comparable to her future relation (or current relation if you talk about the show) with Jon though. Incest in ASOIAF does not work the same way as real life incest (and real life incest is not as terrible as everyone seems to think it is either), and I do not object to it. The most important in relationships is that they are based on mutual genuine consent and on love. I do not care about their alleles in common - I only care about their happiness. Daenerys’ and Jon’ future love story (or current love story if you talk about the show) will be based (is based) on love and consent, on mutual attraction. It won’t be (isn’t) a predatory relationship, or a coerced one. And that is the only aspect that matters to me.

Besides, sexual relations between uncle/niece and aunt/nephew are normal in ASOIAF. Apart from Valyrians, House Stark has at least two instances of marriage between a niece and an uncle in recent times.

[esther-dot]

Concerning the books, apart from text suggesting both want to rebuild Winterfell, have a family and parallels in their journey, why do you think Jonsa will be book endgame?

Jon may be Sansa's type... But Sansa isn't his type. There's also the doubt whether Jon can get attracted to a girl who he saw as his sister plus also resembles his step-mother who loathed him. Ygritte had red hair and blue eyes but she reminded Jon of Arya, not Sansa. Also, he doesn't like ladylike women. Jon has already said that WF belongs to Sansa, so I don't see how they will have to marry because of politics(and if it comes out that he's Rhaegar's son, no one will support his claim and Sansa will be chosen anyway, in a scenario where Rickon dies).

If we consider Jonnel Stark/Sansa 1 parallels we will also have to think of Jonnel's brother Brandon Stark marrying Alys Karstark, which can't happen as Alys is married already.

You seem very calm and rational about this, so I don’t mind chatting about it with you, but I have to take a moment to enjoy the argument that Jonsa won’t happen because proper little Sansa can totally fall in love with her “brother” but what strains credulity is that a Targaryen could ever love his sister.

Anyway, in my opinion, the reason Jonsa will happen in the books is that Martin created his characters to say specific things, and regardless of how readers react to or interpret them, they will have certain endgames as a result. So, Sansa gets a romance (as uncomfortable as it makes us due to her age) because Sansa is not merely the character who believed in the songs, believed in love, but because Martin is talking about ideas of innocence and corruption, faith and disillusionment in her chapters, in her arc, and to answer his own questions, to affirm his own beliefs, Martin will answer Sansa’s, he will affirm Sansa’s. The point isn’t to give Sansa a hero simply because she wants one or I want her to have one, the point is much bigger than Sansa. It is the author who wants to believe in heroes, but how can he, or we, as adults who have lived and suffered, who have seen corruption and wars and endured personal wrongs and tragedies hold onto that? How can we have that hope when for most of us, growing up has taught us cynicism? I think these are things the author is talking about with Sansa, and the point isn’t that she (we) should accept that the monsters win or that life isn’t beautiful, or that all the good we believed before we knew better was a lie, the truth is simply more complicated, more painful. Life is harder than we understand when young, brutal even, but the good is still there.

That’s where the lines about songs, that famous line especially, come into Sansa’s story over and over:

This is an idea that Martin is tracking across the series, and as horrible as things get for Sansa at different times, the story she is in, the story the author created, very much believes in heroes.

Jonsas get shit for pointing it out, but we have already seen Slynt beheaded ie the monsters don’t win in the end and wishes come true. Martin has already indicated that in spite of Sansa being surrounded by monsters for so much of her story, there are heroes, and one hero has already fulfilled her wish, almost a continent away. I understand that some fans find it obnoxious that the beautiful princess might get a hero, but if you put aside personal opinions about Sansa, I think you can understand why it’s inevitable that she will meet and be loved by her hero (the one the author already indicated, Jon) because the songs are not lies. Sure, the details may be inaccurate, the truth is far more complicated, but love and heroism, the things they celebrate are true. We all already know that there are true knights (Brienne), so we know Martin purposely writes all the negatives with one bright spot to say he does believe in these things, in spite of all the reasons not to. Sansa doesn’t know Brienne, she doesn’t know Jon chopped off Slynt’s head, but we know it. The author told us to keep hope. Now, the next thing that Sansa has lost hope for is someone marrying her for love, and if heroes exist, if true knights exist, what do you think the logical conclusion is? What do you think the author will do to tell his readers, this is the world I want to believe in. What do you think the author will do to tell the reader, I’m not mocking hope, I am not mocking the innocent, I am not LF telling my victims to resign themselves to cruelty? I think the author will say life is painful, but hope is beautiful and love matters.

Now, obviously, heroes rescuing maidens and all that fairytale stuff the fandom likes to pooh pooh when it comes to Sansa or Jonsa theories comes up in some ways in other character’s POVs, but what’s funny is that, it’s still associated with Sansa:

In fact, Theon, the character Martin singled out as a foil to Jon, is the only other POV in which we get that famous line “life is not a song”

and shockingly (or not so shockingly) that happens right before Theon is the hero, Theon tries to rescue the girl,

The author couldn’t be any clearer in his “the character might not believe, but I am showing the readers that they’re wrong” schtick. To me, Sansa’s “no one will marry me for love” falls into that category. She loses hope, the author will restore it.

This is getting long, but I’ll still say a little about my boy. The fandom has a weird amnesia when it comes to a major revelation about Jon that is meant to impact how we view him.

I have no idea where the “Jon doesn’t like ladies” talking point comes from when we have this quote in addition to his dreams of children, his desire to recreate his childhood. Jon wants the life that Ned had, that Robb was destined for, and he has lived with intense guilt and shame over that desire. You and I know that the picture in Jon’s mind, the dream that he thinks he will never have, the life he wants more than anything includes a lady wife.

There are things about Ygritte that remind Jon of Arya, but if you read the thing that specifically makes him attracted to her, makes him want her…

The things that Jon finds attractive aren’t what remind him of Arya, and in fact, are the more ladylike aspects of Ygritte’s personality, the quiet moments, not her interest in fighting, but her singing. And if that isn’t enough, Jon’s fantasy is to enact Lord/Lady of Winterfell with her:

I know Ygritte is a fan favorite, but Jon resists her advances as long as he can, eventually has sex with her all the while thinking if he doesn’t he would die, and while I think he genuinely comes to care for her, he also feels like fucking her as the FF do makes him no different than an animal. None of this indicates to the reader that this is what he wants because that sexual relationship wasn’t by choice, but we do have glimpses of what he likes, and then the admission of what he wants most, and I’m not sure why the fandom ignores that. Just because Jon is a softy who sees the good and bad in people doesn’t mean we’re meant to ignore Jon’s dreams. As a Jon fan, it bugs me that whitewashing Ygritte takes precedence over my boy’s feelings.

As for the Jonnel/Sansa thing (link), I don’t think the idea is that every ancestor is foreshadowing for their namesakes. The reason this couple raises eyebrows is because Martin went back and deliberately added them as that post explains. And with the factors he included in that scenario (link), it feels like a very self aware attempt to foreshadow canon, only this time, because of Robb’s will and the dire circumstances the North will be (the Others, Dany invading etc) Jon(nel) marrying Sansa might be in an effort to restore her rights, give Winterfell back to her, rather than take it. I’m more a fan of the secret marriage in the godswood even though she’s still technically married to Tyrion idea (because that’s young and dramatic), but the Jonnel/Sansa deal…there’s a lot of reasons to think that’s foreshadowing for a “political” marriage that is strangely, very acceptable to the kids. The biggest one being, Martin does have to resolve the issue of men marrying women for their claims/to usurp their power and that isn’t resolved by the idea of Sansa someday marrying some nobody. She has to marry someone we know loves her to resolve that issue. And luckily for us, we know a dude who could have usurped her and didn’t, and who will again be offered the chance to take Winterfell which might result in him refusing again or the positive version of the Jonnel/Sansa situation, marriage to empower Sansa, rather than take from her. Considering that’s what Jon arranged for Alys…there��s something there. I would like the Northern Lords to support Sansa’s claim, but it’s all dependent on who shows up when, what happens with Robb’s will, when Jon’s parentage is revealed, when Rickon and Bran appear…I think it’s far from certain that Sansa is QitN in her own right, my preferences aside. ☹️

So for me, it mainly comes down to what Martin is saying and there are many paths to get there, but the end result would be love affirming. Basically, if Sansa loses hope and says there are no true knights and Martin says there is, if she thinks there are no heroes and Martin says there is, if she thinks no one will marry her for love, I have no choice but to believe someone will.

[esther-dot]

Hi! I wasn't'sure if you or someone else may have already written about this but Jon's own romantic side isn't as explored by most fans. (liking flowers, songs, stories, chivalry) While Jon looks like Ned and tries to live up to Ned, he has a deep romantic side and an appreciation for the types of things Sansa does. Do you think this might be another of GRRM's subtle hint of his true parentage (Lyanna seems a bit of a romantic too) as well as a hint of Jon's eventual attraction to Sansa?

(continuation of this convo)

For sure. Sometimes, it's hard to pull everything apart and know what is what because we know it isn't perfectly straightforward, and yet, we know Martin is leading us somewhere, we’re still guessing as to where though! To me it feels like the layers are what is happening, the clues about what did happen, and the foreshadowing for what will happen. So, what one may deem foreshadowing might also be about precanon events (and vice versa) which is what you’re suggesting.

Looking at it both ways is important because we’re getting the groundwork for what comes next in the story, even if the revelations we read are about events that have already happened, so I totally agree with you. The similarities between Jon and Lyanna, beyond just appearances, but their tempers, their desire to protect the vulnerable, and their romantic nature are what will let readers feel the truth of the revelation. It isn't just "Jon is the hidden prince, duh," but an "oh, he really is Lyanna's son." It's a lovely way to prepare for parentage reveal. 

I even thought that in ADWD, the Girl in Grey prophecy wearing on Jon is (in a way) similar to Rhaegar having a prophecy that wore away at him. Just as an acknowledgment of how these things can mess with you and how you keep thinking “is this what it means? No? Oh, is this what it means? Is this the person the prophecy is about?” and what, given enough time and motivation and circumstances, people can be driven to. Obviously, Rhaegar’s decisions were way, way worse because he was an adult, in a situation with real power, and his decisions led to the death of his wife, his children, Lyanna, and contributed to the start of a war, and his view of everything was...self-aggrandizing rather than self-sacrificial (imo), but that idea of prophecy eating away at a person seemed to be of interest to Martin in both their stories. A lot of that pain is felt in Melisandre’s struggle to understand her visions, but just as we have some moments where we can see Lyanna in Jon, I think there is a parallel there between Jon and Rhaegar that creates a relationship between the characters even though they’ll never meet.

That was a tangent. Back to the point! We have a specific moment where song is of significance to Jon and Lyanna, and it’s presented in the same book. First, Jon and Ygritte:

Lately, though, he was noticing some other things. When she grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter. And maybe her eyes were too far apart, but they were a pretty blue-grey color, and lively as any eyes he knew. Sometimes she sang in a low husky voice that stirred him. And sometimes by the cookfire when she sat hugging her knees with the flames waking echoes in her red hair, and looked at him, just smiling . . . well, that stirred some things as well. (ASOS, Jon II)

and then, Lyanna and Rhaegar:

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. (ASOS, Bran II)

It's impossible to see it as a coincidence. Especially not when we have other R+L=J hints connected with songs in the same book which is how I interpret this line:

Jon knew the song, though it was strange to hear it here, in a shaggy hide tent beyond the Wall, ten thousand leagues from the red mountains and warm winds of Dorne. (ASOS, Jon I)

Obviously, he is not Dornish in any meaningful way, but Jon was born in Dorne so this feels like a wink, wink moment to me (talked about this a while ago). And of course, Rhaegar as a lover of song is mentioned too:

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance." (ASOS, Daenerys, IV)

He was naturally one way before the prophecy took over his life. This is part of the reason why I think his prophecy must have been a motivating factor for going after Lyanna because as far as we know, it was the driving force of his life. Later in the series, we get this quote that gives Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar a little context:

Prince Rhaegar was returning from Dorne, and he and his escort had lingered here a fortnight. He was so young then, and I was younger. Boys, the both of us. At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. (ADWD, The Griffin Reborn)

Rhaegar wasn’t a womanizer, Ned has a comment about how he wasn’t the type to visit brothels, but mentioning how women responded to his music seems...purposeful. Also, we do have a recurring thing where singers use their singing to seduce and that is mentioned in ASOS too:

"What, with only the boy here? I told you twice, the old woman was up to Lambswold helping that Fern birth her babe. And like as not it was one o' you planted the bastard in the poor girl's belly." He gave Tom a sour look. "You, I'd wager, with that harp o' yours, singing all them sad songs just to get poor Fern out of her smallclothes."

"If a song makes a maid want to slip off her clothes and feel the good warm sun kiss her skin, why, is that the singer's fault?" asked Tom. "And 'twas Anguy she fancied, besides. 'Can I touch your bow?' I heard her ask him. 'Ooohh, it feels so smooth and hard. Could I give it a little pull, do you think?'" (ASOS, Arya II)

I feel like a lot of work is being put into explaining pre canon events. Not only do we have that “Jon likes songs like his mother” idea, but the scenario he finds himself in with Ygritte may be similar to what his mother experienced as well ( @agentrouka-blog has talked about this several times but I’m only seeing this post rn). Jon is the maiden in the scenario with Ygritte, and she even says she told him the Bael the Bard story (something we've all talked about being a version of R+L=J) with the hopes that he would sleep with her:

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though." (ASOS, Jon III)

The telling of romantic stories/singing of songs in ASOS is important in understanding Jon for several reasons. It not only serves as characterization for him, it often references his identity, and it (imo) also tells us about Lyanna/Rhaegar….as murky as I still find it that whole story. With Jon we know sex with Ygritte was coerced the first time, but we don't know for sure what happened between R/L because there is enough to allow for the idea that Lyanna was seduced/enamored, especially with the parallels to Sansa's experience with Joffrey.

So yes, I totally agree that one of the functions of Jon's love for songs is to create some parallels with Lyanna because details like these are what will make the bombshell of parentage reveal work on multiple readings. Martin really wants his developments to not only make sense (logically work), but to feel right, to be deeply embedded in everything that's come before.

The song stuff is also creating some parallels with Sansa because in the same book in which Jon is trapped into having sex with Ygritte, Sansa encounters a handsome singer who pressures and then assaults her. So, we have two different versions of a Stark maidens and "singers" in the same book that is also telling us more and more about R/L. 👀 Once I saw a comment that all Jonsa hints are misinterpreted R+L=J clues, and I think it's actually often both, just as you suggest.

Thank you for the message!