#pe17

[undercat-overdog]

👑 and 🔮 please!

For this ask game, and thank you for the questions!

👑To which High King of the Noldor do you owe your allegiance? Why would you offer them your fealty?

Hmm, Gil-galad probably. Either him or Finarfin. I do have problems with his (Gil's) Numenorean policies (I understand the political realities after the War of the Elves and Sauron, but do not approve before that), but I'm also biased towards Middle-earth and Gil is Daddy. I'd probably follow Galadriel and Celeborn to Eregion though.

Interesting: Fingolfin ruled for longer than Finwe depending on how you count the Years of the Trees.

🔮You can reach into the Beyond and ask the Professor to settle one (1) debate for you. He won't even waffle on the answer, honest. What do you ask him?

I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT PE17! No, not Mairon (actually I'd like to have a discussion with Jirt about that too), but THIS:

with nasality of preceding vowel subsequently lost

Jirt, what the hell is this I have never seen you mention nasal vowels anywhere else, phonemic or allophonic, nor in influencing changes. (Like, a stage with nasal or nasalized vowels wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, very natural thing, but to the best of my knowledge, this is the one place mention of them shows up in the Elven languages.) (If I'm wrong and there are other sources with mention, please let me know!)

Another conlang question is the status of /θ/ in Telerin, which I'd like to know more about. Tolkien says it exists in the language (in Quendi and Eldar, iirc), but the one place we know Telerin would originally have had /θ/ there's an /f/ instead (the name the Teleri used for Thingol, which is Findo, which would have come from *thindô, not *thindikolnô). Anyways, /θ/ could exist in different environments, or have been lost and then reintroduced, but I rather like the change; it fits with Telerin's feel.

[absynthe--minded]

@mirillel I’m making this its own post because this is WHOLLY about my own opinions (which is valid Quenya linguistics; they have principles dedicated to aesthetic appeal over other functions, so my being a self-admitted picky priss means I’m in good company) but essentially:

“Glorfindel” is probably a Sindarinization of the Quenya (either Noldorin or Vanyarin) “laurë + findëlë”, meaning “golden + lock of hair”

PE17 lists possible variations as Laurëfindëlë, Laurëfindil, Laurëfindel, Findelaurë, and Kulufindëlë (with kulu being an older word for gold that’s associated with coins in words like kulusta)

I like Laurëfindil because it sounds less Noldorin than the other options, which is in keeping with my opinion that the royal line he’s descended from is Ingwë’s rather than Finwë’s, and also because it’s got a double meaning - “laurë + fin + dil” also means “Friend of Golden Hair” or “Golden-Haired Friend”.

The takeaway from this is that I have several tiny Quenya preferences that mean I can never be in mixed company; one look at certain choices and I become a gremlin coming out of her well to shame mankind for the crime of having an opinion that isn’t mine, which is the ultimate fate of anyone who becomes obsessed with Quenya.

[anoriathdunadan]

Their horses were strong and of proud bearing, but rough-haired; and one stood there without a rider, Aragorn's own horse that they had brought from the North; Roheryn was his name.

Some context for Roheryn:

roheryn S. proper name. Horse of the Lady

Aragorn’s horse (LotR/778), translated “Horse of the Lady” (SA/roch) or “Steed of the Lady” (PE17/97), a combination of roch “horse” and heryn “lady” (PE17/97), with the [[s|[x] (“ch”) softening to [h] in Gondorian pronunciation]].

Conceptual Development: In Lord of the Rings drafts from the 1940s, this name was already N. Roheryn (WR/435). The name also appeared in The Etymologies from the 1930s beside an older form Rocheryn (EtyAC/KHER).

War horses were a kingly gift. Only the best for her bestie.

Accorsing to Michael Prestwich's article "Miles in Armis Strenuus: The Knight at War", we have evidence that, during King Henry II's reign, the bog standard warhorse cost about £2 Stirling, and that a more expensive one could cost as much as £6 13s. 4d. This is similar to a low of 5 marks (£3 6s.) under Richard I and £3 10s./14 pounds Angevin under John, and John's records also give us a warhorse costing £12 10s/50 pounds Angevin.

For the sake of convenience, I'm going to assign three categories: one valued at £3 for the bare minimum standard, one valued at £7 for a much better horse and one valued at £13 for the best of the best.

In terms of wages, the pay of an infantry soldier in medieval England is generally a good indication of what a semi-skilled tradesman or reasonably well off farmer could expect to make each day. It increased from 1d per day under Henry II to 2d by the end of his reign (see here; note that the wages are given in grams of silver, with 1.35g to the pence) as a result of inflation, so I'm going to use the larger sum for this comparison, just as I used the higher prices for the horses.

The price of a basic warhorse would thus be equal to 360 days wages (1.3-1.4 years income, taking Holy Days into account), a high quality warhorse would be equal to 840 days wages (3-3.2 years income), and the best warhorses would be equal to 1560 days wages (5.6-6 years income).

Taking the median US household income for 2017 as $57 500, representing someone whose income is reasonably comfortable, a basic warhorse was worth about $74 750, a good quality warhorse was worth $172 500, and the best quality warhorse was worth $322 000.

[phoenixrisesoncemore]

I had wondered for a while how Paul Kocher was able to get so many things right in Master of Middle-earth considering it was written and published prior to the publication of The Silmarillion. There’s a surprising amount of metaphysical/linguistic/cosmogenic information in The Road Goes Ever On (which he did have access to and does cite).

In fact, one section of the notes on Tolkien’s translation of Namarie (having to do with Varda and clouds) is partly derived from Tolkien’s late 50’s linguistics notes on fana, notes that wouldn’t elsewhere appear until PE17.

Images are from The Road Goes Ever On.

[lonely-bunbun]

There he go

[francescovivona86]

#Repost @idressmap with @repostapp ・・・ #SpringSummer17 The perfect summer outfit @briandalesofficial @pinkoofficial @liujoglobal @_samue_ @alessandra.pace2 📸 @francescov86 ✂️ @nino_gramma #idressmap #moda #fashion #PE17 #SS17 #elegance #sensation #womenswear #manswear #picoftheday #outfit #ootd #moodoftheday #shopping #instacool #lifestyle #style

[yvonneetgeorgette]

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[elamarth-calmagol]

Who Named Elrond and Elros?

I was going to write about this when I got around to writing about elvish naming conventions, but since Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez just answered my question and basically said “I have no idea what you’re talking about”, I really want to see what you guys know or can figure out.

Here’s the link to the response: https://middle-earth.xenite.org/short-questions-and-answers-vol-8/  For another source, https://www.elfdict.com/w/elrond?include_old=0 says:

Conceptual Development: The name Elrond first appeared in early Silmarillion drafts from the late 1920s (SM/38) and was first published in the Hobbit in 1937. His name appeared in The Etymologies from the 1930s in two forms: Noldorin Elrond “Starry-dome” (Ety/EL) and Ilkorin Elrond “Vault of Heaven” (Ety/ROD), both with essentially the same etymology as his later Sindarin name. In a few places Tolkien considered alternate etymologies for this name: in his notes on “Words, Phrases and Passages from The Lord of the Rings” from the 1950s-60s, he suggested the final element might be rhond “body” (PE17/183), and in a letter to Rhona Beare from 1958, he suggested the initial element might be archaic †Ell “Elf” (Let/281). Both of these seem to have been transient ideas.

And something similar about Elros, which means “star-foam”.

Basically, I’ve heard at least two different translations for the names Elrond and Elros, and I’ve also heard at least two different options for how they got their names.  I’d really like sources if you know them, because things are often circulated as canon when in fact, someone just made them up.  I imagine this is discussed in some History of Middle Earth books I haven’t gotten around to reading, but some of you have.

Elwing named them

First, Elrond and Elros might be the mother-names given to them by Elwing.  This makes a lot of sense, since El- names are very common in her line: Elwe/Elu Thingol, Dior Eluchil, Elured, Elurin, Elwing.  The only person who doesn’t seem to have an El- name is Luthien, and I assume she does and we just don’t know it (since most elves have three or four names).  If she named them, then these are the names they went by their whole lives.  And mother-names are often used publicly, so that’s all right.  This also fits with the explanation of their names: star-dome or “vault of heaven” and star-foam, both describing the night sky.  This is what Michael Martinez says is most likely, also adding that there is evidence of Quenya versions of their names, which makes sense with Earendil as their father.

Gil-Galad’s people named them

The other version I’ve heard (and this is the one I really want to find a source on) is that Gil-Galad or his people named them when they found them after they were sent away by Maedhros and Maglor.  In this version, they were named because of how they were found: Elrond sitting in a cave and Elros playing in a waterfall.  Then Elrond means “elf of the cave” (a translation Tolkien Gateway supports, though it says the name is referring to the caves of Menegroth) and Elros means “elf of the spray”.  However, the elfdict quote above claims that the translation of “el” as “elf” was rejected by Tolkien.

If this is how they were named, it’s really interesting to question why they kept using those names instead of their mother-names.  Are they rejecting the memory of their early life and the other people they’ve lived with?  Are they saying they’re different people now?  Or is it just that everyone started calling them by the nicknames and they couldn’t seem to go back?  This would also mean that they were called something else entirely by Maedhros and Maglor, which would be interesting to write about.

Maedhros and Maglor named them

I don’t know if I’ve ever actually heard this or it was just a misunderstanding of the above.  For a while I thought it was Maglor who found them in the cave and waterfall.  This would also explain the existence of a Quenya version of Elrond.  It would be fascinating if they kept the names that their kidnappers gave them and a really strong sign that they were a genuine family... or that they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

They were named more than once

I think it was the Tolkien Professor who I remember talking about the fact that some characters are given the same name by more than one person independently.  The best example is Aragorn being named Elessar by the people of Gondor, who had no idea that it was already one of his names.  This could have to do with foresight (e.g. a declaration that he will be named Elessar) or just the way that fate works in Middle Earth (I’m pretty sure Luthien was already called Tinuviel before Beren came along).  So it’s possible that Elrond and Elros were given those names for one reason by their mother and for an entirely different reason by someone else.

Please tell me which story you’ve heard and if you know a source for it!

[vuesse]

#blackandwhite #vittoriosalvatore mod . bianca #instacool #pe17

[somediyprojects]

Bird and Butterfly stitched by Emsely. Kit PE17-9104 ($9.27) by Permin of Copenhagen.

[khayavolunteer]

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[mdesego]

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[phoenixrisesoncemore]

Tolkien Index

Sauron Meta

The Nameless Enemy (Deep dive into the name "Mairon," why Mairon may have been considered an exemplar of his order, and why being "Admirable" makes it hard to be alone)

Why Is Sauron's Original Name In Quenya If Sauron Was Never In Valinor? (Extrapolating from thoughts in "The Nameless Enemy," why might the Elves have translated The Admirable's Valarin name into Quenya?)

Tolkien the Horror Writer (How Tolkien uses the magnetic power of Sauron's ability to subvert, capture, and direct his image and the image characters have of each other as a horror device)

The Inverted Mountain (On the only moment in LotR where we get a look into Sauron's perspective)

Reckoning Nothing of Wizardry or War (My favorite LotR passage—and a bit about the things that Sauron can't control)

How to Destroy Your Enemies and Influence People (What was Sauron really doing in Numenor? Was it really just about revenge? Or was he "Making a Point"?)

Whom Morgoth Made (On the first appearance of Thu-Sauron in the Primary World and what Tolkien might have meant by calling him one "whom Morgoth made.")

Fixation and Attachment Can Lead to Missing Fingers (On why Sauron seems to have trouble fixing injuries to his physical form even when he can still shape-shift and rebuild a body)

Ordering Reality (On Sauron the conlanger, or how Sauron and Tolkien shared a hobby that allowed them to conceptually organize existence)

Quote: "The Necromancer Is Not Child's Play" Sauron and The Panopticon [r+] Sauron Doesn't Use "Sauron" [r+] Methods of Forging the Rings in Visual Adaptations [r+] Sauron's Villainy as Parody [r+] Quick Thoughts on PE17 Sauron's Numenorean Misinformation Campaign Sauron's Canonically Pretty Handwriting [r+] Babel Builders A Little Sauron Crack More Sauron Crack Evolution of Depictions: When Sauron Became Sexy Excerpts from "Moral Vision in The Lord of the Rings" Bombadil and The Ring Gollum's Song or Sauron's Song Ar-Pharazon the "Besotted"

Metaphysics and Eucatastrophe Meta

The Whole Damn Thing Is Fallen (Some dark and at times personal thoughts on theodicy, the nature of Nature, and Arda (un)Marred vs Arda Healed)

The Whole Damn Thing Is Fallen II (Continuation and elaboration of the previous thoughts on theodicy, the nature of Nature, Arda (un)Marred vs Arda Healed, and Tolkien's Felix Culpa)

Is Eucatastrophe Inherently Teleological? (Questions about whether Tolkien's idea of eucatastrophe requires a universe that is understood to be teleological and differences in reader engagement based on differences in metaphysical viewpoint)

Perspective and Scale [r+] (Adding thoughts about the way Gandalf and Aragorn are able to interact with Middle-earth due to their unique experiences of the extremes of scale)

The Ainur and Subcreation [r+] (Thoughts on The Exploration of Potential Things (imagining/fantasy) > The Invocation of Potential Things (envisioning with a clear purpose/planning) > The Evocation of Potential Things (making))

The Imagining and the Making (Follow up to "The Ainur and Subcreation")

Emergent Properties of Ea (Thoughts on Vaire and Story and whether story can be said to be an emergent property of Ea)

Balancing Myth and Metaphysics [r+] (On Tolkien's struggle between the "legends/mythos" conceptualization—flat world—of the Legendarium and the "theological/scientific"—round world—conceptualization)

They Shaped and Wrought, and Light They Caught (Art as it relates to light imagery in gems and elsewhere in Tolkien's work; light as a material constituent of Ea)

Quote: Tolkien Coins Eucatastrophe Is the Ending of Disney's Hunchback Eucatastrophe or Deus Ex Machina? Justice is Not Healing Tessellating a Feanorean Star

Primary and Secondary World Meta

Valie Evolution [r+] (How Nienna and Varda become more passive but more metaphysically and theologically important, and how they trade the Marian trait of listening back and forth)

The Poet of Prague (Comparing the lives of Prague photographer Joseph Sudek and Tolkien, who both produced work that investigated faerie, light, and story)

Tolkien and Final Fantasy (On what Tolkien might have meant about realist or representational visual media being unfit for Fairy-stories and whether this is why I engaged differently with earlier Final Fantasy games whose graphics were iconographic rather than realist)

The Road Goes Ever On and On (On journeying through the Fall and the perilous call of nature in decay)

How to Make a Flat World Round? [r+] (Thoughts on possible ways to present the physical change of Arda from flat to round in adaptations)

Tolkien and the Far Tree (Letter 96 and Tolkien's thoughts on the power of untold stories like Celebrimbor's)

When the Far Tree Becomes Near [r+] (How The Silmarillion reveals the machinery behind LotR)

Thuringwethil [r+] (Thoughts on the different iterations of Thuringwethil)

Christopher's Work on Maps Tolkien's Elves are Ancient Aliens Christopher and the Tear Tolkien and George MacDonald Tolkien Blames Bilbo for Plot Holes Barahir's Snake Ring [r+] Heraldry Development [r+] How Perspective Makes Aragorn a Better King [r+] Tolkien, Language, and the Construction of Reality The Cauldron of Story and Fanfiction Tolkien Wanted The Hobbit to Be An AU [r+] Owen Barfield on Julian Jaynes American Numenor My Leftist Propaganda Is Tolkien Was the "Atlantis Haunting" Sleep Apnea?

Events, Talks, and Media Meta

Art of the Manuscript (review of the Marquette Exhibition)

The Magic Ring (On my favorite piece at the Maker of Middle-earth exhibit, the original LotR title page)

The Little House of Lost Play (Adele McAllister's performance of Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva among other adaptations)

Tolkien Biopic (Thoughts on the missing Silmarillion in Tolkien)

Thoughts on Project Northmore [r+] (On why I personally have reservations about the project)

Collecting Namárië Performances [r+] Paul Kocher and The Road Goes Ever On Signum Symposium on Christopher Tolkien John Garth on the Catholic Culture Podcast Shaun Gunner on TEP Oxonmoot 2021 Post 1 Oxonmoot 2021 Post 2 Oxonmoot 2021 Post 3 Marquette's The Art of the Manuscript The Nature of Middle-earth American Numenor My Leftist Propaganda Is Tolkien

Read and Reread Liveblogs

The Flame Imperishable: Post 1 | Post 2 | Post 3 | Post 4 | Post 5 | Post 6 | Post 7

The Lord of the Rings: Post 1 |

The Rings of Power Meta

Tom Shippey Discusses the Show Announcement of Writers Main Cast Announcement Some Thoughts on the Nudity Issue Official Summary is Released/Lindon Questions First Image With Two Trees of Valinor Title Announcement and Logo Feature Thoughts on the Celebrimbor Infodump Teaser Trailer "Sauron" Trailer No Annatar?

Tolkien Art and Fic

Go HERE

[lonely-bunbun]

Amy is confused how Mark has he feet up so high

[dailymarkhor]

Alexander McQueen | Spring Summer 2017 Full Fashion prove | Exclusive Alexander McQueen | Spring Summer 2017 by Sarah Burton | Full Fashion prove in High Definition. (Widescreen - Exclusive Video - PFW/ Paris Fashion Week) source