#marv wolfman…….. thank u…….

[royposting]

roy harper i love you i love you i love you

[vechter]

i'm the person who asked you about bruce's reaction to dick's partners, thank you so much for answering!

i agree bruce is often written to be rather wary of starfire which is kinda disappointing to me because he seemed to be genuinely fond and intrigued by dick's excited rants about his gf in the widening gyre, and he was supportive of her relationship with nightwing in the swamp thing... i guess it's a change introduced in the 2000s :/ i found a little analysis of bruce+kory in case you're ever interested!: https://www.wattpad.com/596352666-tamaran-a-guide-essay-starfire-and-batman%27s

as for lori, yes i really miss how bruce used to be written too ;_; back when he laughed and joked around and was always so fond of & jovial with dick... like here are some panels of bruce surprising dick+lori for xmas and everybody's so happy and sweet with each other, heck bruce himself really seemed to like lori!! https://www.reddit.com/r/Nightwing/comments/yykull/dick_grayson_and_his_girlfriend_lori_elton/

...though again, to be fair, this probably has less to do with lori herself and more with how bruce was written at the time... but hey at least she'd be able to keep dick in college, that's gotta be a big plus one in her favor in bruce's eyes right? though i'd argue that before marv wolfman took over, dick really loved college and wanted to pursue a civilian life/career far more deeply :( but i digress! thanks again for answering my question, i really enjoy your thoughts on the bats!!

hi again anon!! yeah... like ngl that alien panel is a bit strange considering how tight bruce is with clark and how much dc likes to capitalize on their friendship. omg the widening gyre... i haven't thought about that comic in ages (kevin smith ily for ga v3) but yeah, you're right. there was a bit of a tonal change. a very neat insight into bruce & kory.

also those panels with lori— i see aunt harriet!! think this was one of the last few times we saw her. god, i miss this bruce who cared soooo deeply and it was visible, not just something he angsted about in his own narration.

it's been a while since i read comics about dick's college days but i feel like they started ramping up the somewhat grittier side of vigilantism by the time jason was earnestly out as robin bc i rmb thinking the tone for the tail-end of dick's robin days was noticeably lighter. oooh, the whole civilian life thing and about dick wanting to pursue it more deeply... the mask versus person debate for dick is sooo complex, esp if u take nightwing v1 into account (even tho it sucks lol). although i have to admit i can't be objective about wolfman bc i'm very grateful to him for NTT and how deeply complex all his character work was.

but, anyway, thank you for the links and ur own thoughts on this <3

[roseworth]

vote in my poll boy but also im gonna skew my own results by giving my opinion. here’s my personal ranking of rose writers

sean mckeever: FRESH HELL <3 literally THE rose book. also tt03 #57 slayed. he ALMOST gets knocked down on the list because a) the fucking shitshow that was terror titans and b) he backtracked on like 3 different character arcs as soon as he started writing tt and it pisses me off. but he redeemed himself with fresh hell

geoff johns: i hate johns so much. but he solidified sooo much about rose as a character that he has pretty much the definitive rose. what he did completely defined rose's relationship with her father and her attitude towards the titans/being a hero in general. whether they realize it or not, every rose writer after johns is writing his version of her. as much as i hate him he is one of the best rose writers and i will stand by that

christopher priest: i have not made it a secret that i love ds16. there are some aspects of his characterization that i dont agree with but for the most part he killed it tbh. hating her dad but still coming back to him, loving her brother but still keeping him at arms length, HOSUN!!! HER HMONG FAMILY!!!!!!! ily priest

ed brisson: SLAY. the only reason he's not higher is because i dont like the fact in general that she chose to be on stormwatch (she would not do that), and he used baby rose in ktr and didnt even mention lili (and DID mention that foster family. im still mad). other than that!!! everything about her struggle to be a good person in batb was soooo good, and so much about ktr was so good for her <3 thank u mr brisson

marv wolfman: i feel a little bad not ranking him higher given that. he created rose. but she doesnt really do much in the issues he writes. which is fair given that she was a new character that was just made to hang around on the sidelines at the time, so theres not a lot to judge in his writing. but he definitely laid the foundation that johns expanded on, and he was the one that made her so uh thnx marv

jt krul: i wish he had gotten more time :( i wish he had gotten to do whatever he was planning with lili, i wish we could've gotten to see more of his rose. his rose was def a different take than before given that she was more... mellowed out ig? it was a lot more lighthearted, just her hanging out with the team, being an older sister to damian (<3), and looking for her mom. hes not my fav just because i like it when shes a crazy bitch instead of a normal girl, but i completely understand why people like his rose. not to mention tt03 #77-78 slays so unbelievably hard

jay faerber: NANNY ROSE <33333 i love love love rose in titans 99 <3 this version of rose is DRASTICALLY different than any other rose, which is the reason hes in the bottom half, but i like it in the sense that its nice to know that she was just hanging out in between the two worst things to ever happen to her (her mom dying & slade drugging her). rose with roy and lian lives rent free in my head every single day of my life i love it so much, also that issue with rose & toni was so fun. titans 99 rose you will always be famous

adam beechen: he is going to hell for what he did to cass but for rose? he was fine. he helped with that one really good wilson family arc (tt03 #43-46), and wrote the only pre-52 rose & jason interaction (#47) so he gets points for that. and batgirl 2008 was pretty good for rose. but unfortunately he just didnt make enough of an impact on me to be ranked any higher

matthew rosenberg: unfortunately im mentally ill so i have a detailed explanation of what i think of rosenberg's rose but the short version is: i like him, he writes a good rose. its fun, shes well-written for the most part, but there are some :/ parts about it to me. i think if he continues writing her he'd be ranked higher but for now hes sitting pretty near the bottom of the list

devin grayson: i used to really like devin grayson's rose but. i have since changed my mind. it doesnt feel like rose. this is NOT the rose that stabbed her eye out because she thought slade was disappointed in her! shes too Quirky Girl here even though this is theoretically during the period where shes being drugged (honestly. i dont think grayson actually knew about the super soldier serum. and if she did it does not show) and we've seen rose in this era in tt03 and bg00, and this arc does not read as the same character at all. it was a good arc for her, and she had a lot of good moments here! but the characterization overall wasnt great

joshua williamson: i won't go on a whole tangent about the way williamson writes but. he has no sense of character voice, his characters all feel like blank slates to get the plot across, there are no character decisions being made besides what's needed for the plot. theres not a lot that i can put my finger on and say that its bad, but there are so few choices being made that its hard to say anything about his rose. to put a completely different character in rose's place in robin 2021, all you'd have to do is switch a few words around. williamson uses a vague idea of who a character is to guide what he wants them to do, and all his characters come out shallow. his rose wasnt BAD but it wasnt good at all

scott lobdell: every day i blow on a dandelion and wish for scott lobdell to kill himself

[northoftheroad]

Hello I was reading the famous Dixon's run on Nightwing and noticed in issue #56 Shrike says that Dick as Robin "carried his own".I really like when people admit that Dick was very strong even when he was Robin so now Im looking for issues where other people made a similar statement, saying for example that Dick as Robin could hold its own against Batman, etc. thank you if u can help me even a little :)

Hi, and thanks for the ask.

Honestly, more people should acknowledge how awsome Dick is ;-) I really can't find a lot – especially from when he was Robin. It might be partly because it's been a long time since he was Robin, except for flashbacks and re-tellings – comics were just written in another way back then, and Dick was generally not the main character in the stories. (Though, fun fact, he did have a solo series as early as 1947-1952 in Star Spangled Comics.) This is what I come up with when it comes to people commenting on Dick's fighting skills; I don't think anyone has ever said that DickRobin was equal to Batman.

If we're lucky, the list will get added to if other Dick-fans see this.

First, the comic you were talking about – Nightwing vol 2 # 56. By Chuck Dixon, art Greg Land and Drew Geraci. (Shrike)

Star Spangled Comics # 75. Art Dick Sprang and Charles Paris. (Random thugs.)

Batman Chronicles The Gauntlet. By Bruce Canwell, art Lee Weeks. (Joe Minette and Co.)

Robin Year One. By Chuck Dixon and Scott Beatty, art Javier Pulido and Robert Campanella. (Shrike Sr)

The Judas Contract, Tales of the Teen Titans # 43. By Marv Wolfman, art George Pérez, Mike DeCarlo and Dick Giordano. (Deathstroke.)

Nightwing vol 3 # 0. By Kyle Higgins and Tom De Falco, art Eddy Barrows and Eber Ferreira. (Lady Shiva)

(I know he's Nightwing here, but just to follow up the latest one...) Nightwing vol 3 # 14. By Tom De Falco, art Andreas Guinaldo and Mark Irwin. (Lady Shiva)

[fantastic-nonsense]

@colpfiction replied to your post “me: *sees a post on r/AskHistorians about comics history*me: ”

Always. I've learned more about comics and comics history and stuff from your blog than I think I did in college.

Lol, thanks! I feel honored!

Anyway, the original question asked was “Comic books featuring superheroes in the 60s-70s are typically more lighthearted and laden with sci-fi themes than earlier examples. In the 80s there was a sharp u-turn towards more grounded and dark subject matter. What trends caused this shift towards (relatively) grittier realism? What social trends led to this shift? Was it just a matter of sales or was something bigger happening in entertainment/media/society?

Me being me, I busted out pretty much the entirety of the bare bones of the history of the Comics Code and the switch from the Silver Age to the Bronze Age to the Modern/Dark Age of Comics. Also, I’m not sure if it’s good or just sad that I basically wrote the majority of it off the top of my head and really only needed to Google things to source dates, specific title and author names, and a couple of quotes. Now granted, r/AskHistorians specifically asks for and curates in-depth, sourced responses, but still:

“In terms of actual comics that contributed to the sharp turn towards "more grounded and dark subject matter," there are four or five comic events people usually credit as marking the general "turning point" between the Silver Age and Bronze Age of comics where comics began to get progressively darker and less silly: Gwen Stacy's death in "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" (which had a huge impact on the readership of Spider-man comics and comics readers in general), the 1971 "Snowbirds Don't Fly" drug abuse storyline in Green Arrow comics, Green Lantern being turned over to Denny O'Neil and Neil Adams, Jack Kirby's New Gods, and the revival of the Teen Titans with The New Teen Titans. However, unlike the progression from the Bronze Age to the Modern Age, there is no true clearly defined group of comics you can point to as being the definitive marker.

However, you can point specifically to the four comics usually credited with ending the Bronze Age and kicking off the "Dark Age/Modern Age" of comics: The Dark Knight Returns (1986), Watchmen (1987), The Killing Joke (1988), and DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline (1986) that saw a universe-wide reboot and restructuring. While Crisis completely revitalized the DC Universe's sales, The Killing Joke, DKR, and Watchmen were so enormously popular that they literally redefined the superhero genre and inspired years of "grim and gritty" comic books. In fact, DKR was so popular and so influential that in a lot of ways, the entire modern conception of Batman is loosely, in one form or another, based on Miller's work (despite DKR being a dark alternate future and completely out-of-continuity even to this day).

In terms of societal trends and influences, you had quite a few things going on: in comics specifically, you had writers and artists beginning to stretch the bounds of what was considered "acceptable" by the Comics Code Authority guidelines, which was implemented in 1954 after the moral panic surrounding comics, juvenile delinquency, and "bad influences" that culminated in Senate Subcommitee Hearings into comic books and their influence on children and teenagers (the moral panic itself was kicked off due to the infamous book Seduction of the Innocent by psychologist Fredric Wertham). Incidentally, this is why the Silver Age is so well-known for its light-hearted subject matter: comics companies were trying desperately to stick to their self-imposed censorship code, which you can find here.

Stan Lee has talked multiple times about the story of how Marvel Comics famously defied the CCA in 1970 by publishing a Spider-man story dealing with drug abuse (at the request of the US government). His deliberate refusal to adhere to the Comics Code with "Green Goblin Reborn!" in 1970 led to DC publishing the influential and seminal Speedy/Red Arrow storyline "Snowbirds Don't Fly" in 1971, depicting Roy Harper becoming addicted to heroin. Together, these two storylines would form a big part of the basis for depicting darker storylines. "Snowbirds Don't Fly" is considered one of the big watershed moments for the depiction of mature themes in comics, and particularly at DC, as the arc was the start of an era of socially relevant Green Lantern/Green Arrow comics.

Michael McAvennie and Hannah Dolan actually mention this in their book DC Year by Year: A Visual Chronicle:

"It was taboo to depict drugs in comics, even in ways that openly condemned their use. However, writer Denny O'Neil and artist Neal Adams collaborated on an unforgettable two-part arc that brought the issue directly into Green Arrow's home, and demonstrated the power comics had to affect change and perception."

These two stories triggered a re-examination and revision of the Code in 1971 with standards that were slightly looser (though not by much) and helped contribute to a culture where writers/artists were interested in stretching the boundaries of what they were allowed to depict. As the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund's History page states:

The 1971 code relaxed the restrictions on crime comics and lifted the ban on horror comics (while still prohibiting the use of “horror” and “terror” in titles). In addition, the liberalized standards on sex reflected changes in society. After the Spider-Man controversy, the CMAA added a section on how to handle depiction of drug use. The code, although it was less restrictive, represented a lost opportunity in its reaffirmation of comic books as a medium for children.

So you can generally point to "Green Goblin Reborn!" and "Snowbirds Don't Fly" in 1970/1971 for the re-introduction of socially relevant topics such as drug abuse, the revision of the Comics Code in 1971 for allowing the growth of supernatural and horror-related titles (as well as an explosion of non-superhero genre titles throughout the 70s), Gwen Stacy's death in 1973 as marking a trend towards dealing with death and darker subject matter, Jack Kirby's move from Marvel to DC and his "New Gods" storyline as marking a fundamental change in the storytelling priorities of both companies, the revival of Teen Titans under Marv Wolfman and George Perez as marking a change towards character-based storytelling, and the introduction of several minority heroes (particularly John Stewart as Green Lantern, Luke Cage, Storm, Black Lightning, Vixen, and Cyborg) as marking a trend towards the attempt at inclusion and greater diversity (and thus socially relevant storylines regarding prejudice and racism). All of these things combined led to a "perfect storm" where comics began to deal with darker and more gritty/realistic subject matter throughout the 70s and into the 80s, culminating in the publication of stories like Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, A Death in the Family, and Crisis on Infinite Earths in the mid-80s (and later on in 1992, The Death of Superman) which led to the start of the Modern Age/Dark Age of comics.

There are probably three other big societal trends that helped contribute to the depiction of 'darker' subject matter in comics throughout the 70s and early 80s: the change of marketing trends where young children and girls stopped being specifically targeted as comic readers; the end of the careers of many of the veteran writers and artists of the time (or their promotion to management positions and retirement from regular writing or drawing) and their replacement with a younger generation of editors and creators; and the rise of direct market distribution, where specialized comic book distributors could directly solicit orders and distribute directly to retail outlets rather than the old system where wholesalers delivered the comic books to retailers along with other magazines. I suspect that the beginning of the "War on Drugs" and the rise of the Women's Liberation movement in the 70s also played a huge role (you can read a little bit about the revitalization of Wonder Woman and her impact on the Women's Movement/second-wave feminism here), but I only know about how social trends affected specific comics like the Batman, Green Arrow, and Wonder Woman comics rather than the industry as a whole.

As a sidenote, there are a couple of really good books on Wonder Woman, her history, and her impact on the feminist movement: The Secret History of Wonder Woman by Jill Lepore and Wonder Woman Unbound: The Curious History of the World's Most Famous Heroine by Tim Hanley.

For further research on this matter, I would suggest you look up books relating to the Comics Code and the Seduction of the Innocent scandal (David Hadju's The Ten-Cent Plague: The Great Comic-Book Scare and How It Changed America is particularly good) as well as any articles and academic papers on a) the rise of minority superheroes throughout the 70s, b) the impact of "Snowbirds Don't Fly", and c) anything relating to the impact Gwen Stacy's death had on comics.

If you're more interested in the switch from the Bronze Age to the Modern Age, I would focus on the rise of independent publishers such as Milestone Comics and Marvel/DC's non-superhero publishing lines Vertigo and Image, the near complete dissolution of the Comics Code in 1989 (with the final hit being Marvel completely withdrawing from the Comics Code in 2001), authors like Frank Miller (who wrote extensively on Daredevil and then went off and wrote DKR and Batman: Year One) and Alan Moore (especially Alan Moore, considering he wrote Swamp Thing, Watchmen, and The Killing Joke), Crisis on Infinite Earths and the lasting impact it had on both DC Comics and the comics industry as a whole, the death of Barry Allen in Crisis on Infinite Earths and the installation of Wally West as the Second Flash, and the development of the X-Men franchise.”