#man this post has so many parenthesis... i'm not looking through it again though. i'm tiredd

[laufire]

although I've enjoyed stories that went down that route before, I can't see jason & talia's relationship in the comic as surrogate mother and son. I don't think the reading came completely out of the blue (I still have this edit of the pietà cover in lost days #2 as my background pic lol. that's some culturally ingrained imagery! although given the issue it precedes, I wonder if it was more of a hint to antichrist!jason lmfao), and can see how lost days #1 would inspire it (although the same events in batman annual #25 end with talia kissing jason after the pit... and I read that first because lost days wasn't out yet when I was catching up in my jason reading, way back when. lost days erases this moment and I do prefer it that version though. that moment, at that time, made no sense).

but after that first issue that's not what I see in the run. jason's certainly not in the market for a parental figure, and he wouldn't have responded well to talia, had she approached him as one (and at this point, talia was very much about finding the right approach to manage jason... because jason had attempted to kill bruce -the comic attributes this to temporary psychopathy but winnick and I differ on this one-. and this didn't happen only because jason decided not to go through his plan at the last moment. ymmv at to why). this reading comes from a mix of things in fanon, but one of them is literally "well she's bruce's love interest and he's bruce's kid sooooo", and I just don't vibe with that, basically.

reading talia's first appearances and realising she's meant to be close to dick's age also compounded my own interpretation of talia's dynamics, sometimes for the worse sometimes for the better, but it's a canon detail that just feels so fitting for the talia comics I've read that now I'd struggle to see her differently, when beforehand I really hadn't thought about her age. this way, they're not exactly peers (dick seems around 4-6 years older than jason in new earth, ymmv), and I usually land on talia being a couple years older than dick. but this colours how I interpret their dynamic, too. how I think they'd see it, in particular.

since I'm talking about the nature of their relationship I do have to mention That Scene. very contentious and I do get why (I do not care for any m/f/m triangle dc has ever tried to pull with the bats, especially bruce vs. dick-slash-jason). but fandom either sees this as "talia, a much older woman, statutory raped jason, a teenager" (jason in the last issue of lost days and in utrh looks very much in his twenties), OR "I've decided talia is jason's mother figure, and I'm -with good reason!- tired of how often she's villianised, so I just Don't See It" [insert mariah carey's i can't read suddenly.gif], as thought there's no other possible interpretation.

and the way I see it is. it's not a Good Thing to happen, nor is it written with that intention! the characters are NOT in a good place and they're NOT making wise, healthy choices lol. and it's something that sidetracks what could've become a really interesting, closer friendship & alliance (I want them to be friends and allies sooooo badly lol. I think they'd work so well!! there's reblogs in my queue about it!!). but I don't see it as something to completely handwave if I'm writing new earth canon; just something to tackle head on, if I ever write about them after this period beyond having it as a secondary dynamic (which I plan to do, but that's another story).

ironically, these ramblings came to me because I'm developing their dynamic in a WIP for a different canon (the young justice cartoon. for reference, the ages there are: Talia, 1984; Jason, 1999; Damian, 2018), and rn if you asked me if they have a surrogate mother-son relationship in it my answer would be a solid... maaaaaaaybe? LOL. if they end up like that, it'll be with MASSIVE ammounts of spousification, though. which is how I see any parental relationship involving jason going, outside of 80s!bruce & jason, to be honest.