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wlw-lovestruck-fiction · 4 years ago

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This is the last ask ill send because im honestly tired of this whole thing

I dont know why you brought up the anon hate you got when that’s no part of the discussion. Even if it isnt your intention, you’re making yourself out of to be the victim when you arent. You say you want to get better but each time something gets pointed out you get on the defensive. I dont know why you decided to bring it up, but now that you have: Piama is indeed whitewashed on your drawing. “Warm lighting” doesnt change peoples undertones like that. Compare it to Piama’s last two cgs if you really don’t believe me.

Even if you aren’t affected, you need to be able to recognize it without poc having to tell you in order to be a good ally. I wouldn’t want a straight friend that lets people make homophobic comments about me in their presence and then hear them say “it doesn’t affect me so i couldnt tell it was homophobic so thats why i didnt defend you”. If you aren’t able to recognize it then you’ll inevitably repeat the same rhetoric. Racist rhetoric is everywhere and spewed every single day so you cant expect poc to be with you all the time and take you by the hand to tell you whats racist or not. Those are the reasons why you need to learn how to identify it by yourself, be listening to poc, by developing critical thinking skills, by not surrounding yourself with only white people. If not there’ll be more unchallenged asks such as one i saw recently that pinned poc that complained about yet another white route “stupid because they dont get that lovestruck releases routes by demand”. As if we have no concept of nuance.

No one is obliged to accept an apology, especially after what happened. I dont know where you got that idea from, especially when it concerns something that hurts people this deeply. And I didn’t point it out what happened just to be petty, I pointed it out because it isn’t an isolated event but a pattern of behavior of unchecked racist comments. That was simply the worst case: It was handled poorly, considering mod viv herself never apologized and again, swept it under the rug. The apology I saw from mod wrath was vague, didnt address the situation directly, was posted on this blog so no one knew what was going on, and was later deleted. So yeah she can apologize ten times and it still doesn’t mean we have to accept it. Especially if it’s that catastrophic because it looks like its more about saving face rather than feeling remorse, even if she did feel bad. You’re too eager to call it just “a mistake” and pin me as the unreasonable one.

And I want to ask you, have you truly seen with your own eyes an interaction where someone said to the other “if you like vinca you’re racist” and was completely serious?Or have you heard it from someone else saying that they were told that? Because considering that other anon watering down a woc’s criticism of lovestruck as “she doesnt like white people or this blog” then yeah i wouldn’t trust anything else coming from their mouths. People are getting too pressed over the millionth white woman in the app. Hell even if it happened, it’s probably what, one, two people? But you’re lumping all of us together as if its been a wave of saying that. The valid criticism surrounding Vinca is interconnected with Nahara’s release (one of the few dark-skinned women in the app) considering people kept saying they’d rather have a Vinca route when Nahara’s was announced. They’re not even willing to support it just because they want Vinca’s and that sends a message to voltage. So it simply doesnt boil down to “well its a difference in personalities”. Im gonna go as far as to say that if a woc had the same attitude as Vinca, people wouldnt be frothing at the mouth for her or they’d delve into the realm of fetishizing (as some people are bordering the line with Piama). But thats a whole other topic. And since people want to act stupid: all of the white characters in lovestruck are white because voltage made them that way. They could’ve quite easily made them a poc, but they rarely do. Think about what that means then, if youre really trying to defend yourself by saying “well they put out whats popular”

Lastly, you should really evaluate the content and beliefs you put out when racist people are still comfortable following and interacting with you. This is why i want this discussion to be public: your followers need to read this and apply it to themselves. Because considering the amount of anon hate you said you got yesterday towards the other blogger, theres a bunch of your followers who need to get off their phones and learn to care about other people and stop being racist assholes.

Believe me, I’m tired of it as well.

I brought up the anon hate because I didn’t want you to wonder why I was posting your asks in this form.

And no. Piama is not whitewashed. I took a dropper tool and took the color directly from her sprite, and if you’d looked at my blog, you would’ve seen that I sent screenshots as proof in response to that ask. But you obviously didn’t, so I’ll send them here again. (1. Without lighting. 2. With Lighting.)

If you still don’t believe me, you’re welcome to call me on Discord and I’ll share my screen and show you the entire process. And as an artist: You’d be fucking surprised what lighting does to colors.

Well, yes, I need to be able to recognize it indeed. The thing is: I can’t always. I try my best on this, and there will be moments and issues that will come up, mistakes I will make because I’m not perfect and not a machine. And in those moments, I’d love to have a friend that affectionately slaps me and says “JD, that was shit.” So I can apologize and notice it the next time. I have had multiple friends be transphobic to me in certain ways. I’ve informed them about it. They apologized and haven’t done it since. We’re still friends to this day. I do try to educate myself on racism and put in some work. I don’t expect POC to do all the work for me and explain to me how to be an ally correctly, and still - I hope they help me just as I help my cis friends with trans stuff. I can’t magically change all my behaviors and overcome internalized societal racism with the snap of a finger. If I could, I fucking would have already done it multiple times. The way it is, I’m working on it. Again - I’m sorry I didn’t point out the racist comment in the ask. I should’ve done that, and I’ll make sure to do it in the future.

You’re right no one is obliged to accept an apology. You’re right this hurts people deeply. And as I said - Mod Wrath apologized three times, including one on her personal blog which was a lot less vague. Mod Viv also apologized - to the person in question, in private. Just because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And the thing is - if you refuse to accept her apology, that’s one thing and fully your right. And the thing is: If an apology is not going to make you forgive her, if ten are not, what do you need in order to forgive? Will you never forgive? Will you always argue it’s going to be an apology to save face when you don’t know the fact she does feel remorse? How will you see that she does?

I did hear the Vinca thing from a friend of mine. Whom I trust. Because seriously, why would you make things like that up? Who would even get the idea? I’m against the idea of believing my friends would lie to me for attention or whatever. And yeah, the criticism of that anon was unfitting - I’ve visited the blog they claimed was doing that and I found nothing of the sorts, so that comment was unfitting unless I missed something. I never intended to say that it’s all of you saying that. I intended to say that some people are handling the issue wrong. I’m sorry it came off that way. I do believe though that it’s people’s full right to say they’d have preferred Vinca over Nahara. I would’ve preferred Vinca. I still read Nahara tho. However, it’s not yours to dictate which routes other people have to support and which not. I will however agree with you that people should give Nahara a chance - it’s quite the sweet story. And I for my part would enjoy a POC Vinca just as much as a white one. (Also, side note, you’re making it appear as if everyone would either fetishize or rage over her, which is very much putting all of the “white” fanbase into the same bag, the same thing you critizised me for earlier. It’s understandable from a psychological point of view, tho, so I’m not gonna comment further.)

Yeah, Voltage makes the characters white, and that’s an issue people can only fix by demanding more POC in the ask posts and comments. Which many do, btw. They put out what is popular indeed, they put out what is demanded, and I fucking demand more POC. I want it. They could’ve made so many LIs POC and they haven’t and I’m fucking unhappy about it too! I’m not even trying to say anything else.

Yes, making this public to arouse thinking is a good policy. The followers need to read this indeed. And we didn’t get anon hate for the other blogger. We got anon hate towards us. Tons. Comments that went as far as telling mods to kill themselves. And while I agree with lots of the things you say - some of the ways you’re acting actively spark this type of hate. There is being loud about the issues you face, and then there is calling people racist assholes based on a comment they made instead of talking to them personally and telling them that’s not okay, giving them the chance to improve themselves instead of always having them stamped as a racist. Just because you’re the one who’s hurt, the one who’s morally correct, does not mean anything you say or do is good behavior.

You told me I whitewashed Piama when you, with a minute of research, could’ve found proof I didn’t. You obviously wanted the internet to see, maybe hoped I’d get exposed? Could I get an apology for that? And I promise, I’ll accept it because I’m willing to believe you’re a good person.

Summary of everything:

You’re right with lots of things.

I behaved wrong and I’m sorry.

Lovestruck has an issue with racism that we need to change together.

Together. Without toxic behavior from any side.

- Mod JD

#Anonymous

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rainingincale · 4 years ago

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I just saw your tags on the "harry was oppressed" post. Might elaborate on that when you are not tired? How Zayn was oppressed? His relationship to ot4. Other celebrities? I love your thoughts!

*cracks knuckles* buckle your seat belts folks we’re in for a wild ride here lmao.

also for context *here* is the post this anon is referring to

I think to start off i should just make a little disclaimer, everything i am going to discuss will be based in my biases probably seeing as I am also a brown British Pakistani person who is Muslim. Zayn has been someone that especially when i was younger I looked up to and was very essential in my journey of learning to love and accept myself and my culture tbh. It’s cheesy as hell but it’s true and i think this is important to know before I go into this more because like I said i am definitely biased towards him. Another thing is that I’m just going to be discussing my personal opinions and also my memory is not very good so i will probably miss out a lot of other things that happened/could be discussed. please dont take this as anything more than just. my opinion.

A thing that really opened my eyes to racism and especially the racism in the 1d fandom was the day that zayn left. I dont think thats what the post above was about btw and ill go into that but i kind of just want to talk about this. The day he left was. a severe mess. Not only because it was obviously upsetting but because of all the bs that people were spouting about a situation that absolutely no one had any context on. the statement that was released on facebook gave us nothing. literally just stated that zayn was leaving the band and the accusations and hatred people were directing towards zayn when we didnt know what actually fucking happened (and still dont might i add) was disgusting. people accusing him of being selfish and how they hated him and why he had to ruin everything. Accusing him of using mental illness as an excuse and lying about it and so much more. i had unfollow more than half of the people i followed that day. it really opened my eyes to the fact that these were all thoughts and opinions people had underneath it all and zayn was fine as long as he was part of 1d and giving people what they wanted. which was essentially being the token in the group and once he wasnt providing that anymore? people turned and people turned fast.

i think its also important to point out the flip side of it and that was zayn stans saying that 1d were nothing without 1d etc. i want to talk about why this was different from ot4 stans hating zayn. of course it wasnt nice to see or hear EVERYONE arguing with each other. i hated it so much. but i think what people failed to realise was that when it comes to situations like this you need to look deeper and think about all the nuances of the situation. zayn stans being happy about zayn leaving the band and saying 1d was going to die i did not agree with. anyone who knew me then and knows me now knows that i am a 1d stan regardless (preferably ot5 but i supported 1d until the end even as a 4some) BUT these opinions were rooted in his mistreatment in the band and the racism he was having to face as a result of being in the band etc etc i apologise for not being a person who can better describe and explain this situation but hopefully you are getting the picture. when fans were hating on zayn. with no context with nothing. that was based on racism. point blank. the amount of tweets FROM 1D FANS talking about how he was leaving to join isis and how upset fans were gonna be vulnerable and join etc etc all this deplorable bs. and he had to deal with comments like that throughout his whole time with one direction and i imagine even now.

Another thing id like to talk about is who zayn stans at least from my point of view usually were. For me i remember when i first got into the fandom i actively made the decision that i didnt want zayn to be my favourite because i didnt want to be a stereotype and this was a point in my life when i still tried to shun and push my culture down because i was ashamed of it. it was only as i slowly saw that zayn was considered as cool and hot and everyone else liked him that i kind of understood that maybe. being brown was alright and it was something cool and that maybe i was cool. it sounds fucked up and honestly i dont even know if i want to be admitting this so adamantly but argh if it helps someone understand then maybe its worth it. (mortifying ordeal of being known eh?) anyways i noticed as i engaged more in fandom and looked for more diversity, more fans like me, majority of non white fans were also... zayn stans. and honestly it makes sense because we all tended to flock towards the closest diversity we could find it seems. im not saying that there werent white zayn stans and that the other boys didnt have non white stans but i just wanted to point out this trend. so when you also take this into account and the fact that on the day zayn left it was majorly... white stans who were criticizing zayn it puts it in perspective for you. majority of fans who still like and support zayn are also not white.

there is a lot more to do with fans but hopefully thats enough of an insight and you can understand the kind of vibes that were present during 1ds prime and what not only zayn had to go through but also as a result the racism we ended up having to deal with as well tbh.

now!!!... something i dont really like talking about lol so this will probably be short but the other boys. so as far as i can remember liams always been kind to zayn since hes left (no surprise there <3 also please correct me if im wrong), niall was kind of indifferent/didnt say anything really, and then there was louis and harry *awkward smile*. hahaha. from my memory i remember when asked about what the most difficult thing was about zayn leaving harry said ‘the paperwork’ which was *awkward smile* and he also kicked that monkey mask/pinata? i cant remember with naughty boys face on it and honestly im sure theres more but his overall reaction to zayn leaving was kind of not caring and maybe being slightly nasty which :) with louis there was the massive twitter fight which literally tears my soul in half so lets not go into that haha and honestly other things where it maybe seemed like he was upset with zayn leaving as well. honestly i am a bit in two minds about these reactions because at the end of the day we dont know what occurred behind the scenes and we probably never will as much as we can speculate or whatever. not to mention that this 10th anniversary it seems maybe everyones on good terms which, who knows really im going to try be optimistic. i think whats important to note about heir reactions is that we dont know anything about their situations but the problem was really how fans reacted tbh (btw i forgot to mention earlier this is about basically everything except for harry and the nb thing. that is inexcusable). the boys reactions were understandable but the problem is that fans of course vicariously are influenced by the boy they stan so when one of them acted a certain way of course that ended up reflecting in fandom and resulted in more racism etc.

another thing with zayn was that there were many files leaked with like promo or whatever basically describing what kind of role the boys would take on/ their image etc. and of course all the other boys got things like bubbly/funny/charming etc and zayns descriptors? moody, mysterious, dark horse etc etc like from the inception of 1d zayn has been victim to racist stereotypes being pushed on him. and i think this is where harry comes in because of course the image pushed onto him was also extremely harmful and i definitely dont think we should not talk about that but often you'll see that... thats all that is talked about because people are uncomfortable admitting racism and talking about it.

When i mentioned other celebrities my point was basically just that while ive only talked about zayn in one direction this... is so present among any and every fandom. 5sos, Little Mix, Fifth Harmony... any fandom you can think of, i promise you it is there. racism in fandom is a real thing and a big problem and honestly this is why i always say representation is so important. and when i say that i mean everywhere!!! because if I didnt seek out non white fans to follow then maybe i would’ve had a completely different perspective on all of this.

The thing is also that a lot of this is just stuff that we’ve been able to get our hands on and also fan analysis and theories etc. there is probably so much more to talk bout or go into or stuff we’ll never even know about. I’ve kind of had to make peace with the fact that with celebrities you just really don’t actually know anything about them.

I think i’ll end this here if there’s any more questions you have about anything feel free to ask! and again this is all just my opinion but hopefully i’ve been able to help answer you <3 have a nice day and i hope youre hydrated!!!

#ask #anon #1d #zayn #long post #i also have links to posts for proof of how zayn was treated on the last day if youd like but i thought id simplify #and just talk about what i though #there really is so much more that can be said

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scrappedidea · 5 years ago

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Man... Skyrim really did set the expectations of video games for an entire fucking decade huh. Like not only did it set the heights of game design, it set the lows too, in such a spectacular way. Skyrim, and more generally, Bethesda’s lazy yet long winded approach to game design really managed to engross an entire market of people who never had such a big and personal connection to a game before. Not just getting them into playing more games in the future but familiarizing swaths of people to the ability to tell stories through interactive media, but at the same time showing them the kind of shortcuts game developers take to put such big ideas into reality. Video game glitches as a joke on the internet was practically introduced by Skyrim, and yet everyone holds it in such high regard.

Skyrim managed to be so compelling despite objectively being awfully executed in so many ways. The voice acting, the way it frames interactions, the stilted and stiff animations, the fucking intro that managed to become a big meme in retrospect, bigger than arrow in the knee, when everyone realized how fucking shitty it was?

In fact, it didn't only set game design expectations, it set expectations of memes. Which is a fucking big deal considering how important memes became, for better or for worse.....

And the gigantic modding culture that built around Skyrim isn't a coincidence how i see it. This game that managed to captivate so many people, failed them in ways they didn't even realize because they never had a game be such a big part of their lives, if only for a short time. So the people who were already familiar with games and programming realized this shortcoming and immediately took action and started putting the best and worst additions a game could ever ask for.

The state of Skyrim mods are like a cruel mirror into the human id in such weird way. Right next to the handfuls of mods that i honestly cant imagine playing Skyrim without, (yes the thing that started this rant in my head was a repeat playthrough of Skyrim) the ones that fix the broken mess that Skryim is, are situated right next to the big titty, “realistic” sex and prostitution mods. Next to those are the ridiculous, over the top, and intentionally stupid meme mods, then we go back to normality with the grounded in reality mods made by people who wanted more and better stories and immersion from Skryim.

Skryim managed to be such an outrageous success despite being so slipshod, and its not like any of this was planned. I do not believe that Bethesda would be such a big name if it weren't for Skryim’s bizarre success, and their repeated failures today really make me wonder how the fuck they managed to worm their way into being such a big thing. I mean obviously Skyrim isn't their first success, their other giant IP that carries them is Fallout, but more insightful, more knowledgeable critiques have been made about Fallout and its... fall from grace as it were, and I’m not going to pretend i can do something better or new compared to those.

I know that Bethesda has been in the game development... game almost since its inception, but none of their previous titles (outside of fallout which i already said why im not going into) have been anywhere near as revolutionary. I mean yes Morrowind and Oblivion definitely set the stage for Skryim and have their fair share of praise but neither or those, nor Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall, have aged well At All. The thing that carried those games was the innovation that they brought to the gaming industry (more specifically the open world action rpg genre) in its inception, in fact the same goes for Skryim in a different way...

So if Bethesda’s “claim to fame” in the past comes from the innovations they brought to the table... Why do we still look to them for it? Analyzing their history, people have already made jokes about the consistency of their development and level of quality coming from their games in the past, and looking at them currently? Nothing new, their current game is fallout 76 and still nothing good has come from it (Im not counting ESO because its developed by a different studio, its only published by Bethesda also any other games that are only Published by them, if you're thinking “what about ____” go check and see if its published by Bethesda, not developed by them.) and its certainly not bringing any ingenuity or creativity to the scene.

I know this started kinda humorously and light hearted but these trends almost always stem from something depressing. It was kinda a rhetorical question earlier but the thing that’s keeping Bethesda relevant? The possible sequel to Skyrim, because it all comes back to Skyrim. I’m aware that ES6 Vallenwood has been announced but I’m not putting any faith in what Bethesda says before a games launch. Because that’s another meme set by Bethesda, Hubris, we’ve all learned to not trust Todd. This also goes for Starfield btw.

I don’t know how to end this so in conclusion I dont mean to be overly critical and pessimistic. As i said i enjoy Tes and Fallout (well at least the concept of Fallout’s world that was kinda shit on by fallout 4 and 76), i also love alot of games published by Bethesda like Dishonored and Prey. This goes on Tumblr dot fucking com because this kind of discussion put anywhere else on the internet might get me lynched in the stupid Video Gamer way that’s actually really boring despite how much attention it gets. As stupid and exceedingly irrelevant as tumblr is, its kinda the only place a thought like this feels like it belongs.

Feel free to correct me about anything because all the “research” i did for this transpired in like... an hour and a half, and I’m not acquainted with big company habits and i kinda don’t want to be because fuck corporations, thats where this rant ultimately ends, Fuck Corporations

#the elder scrolls #skyrim #tes #im sorry to the people who follow the tes tag for lore #Fallout #Bethesda #i have rants like this in my head all the time #i dont know what compelled me to put this one online but eh #if i internalize all my thoughts id go insane and i have no irl freinds that would give a shit about this kind of rant #if my minecraft post got attention im going to be real sad if this gets nothing #i dont give a shit about being popular on tumblr of all places its already been said that tumblr popularity gets you fuck all #i just want this thought to be known #Congratulations if you read all this because honestly i feel like if i happened across a post like this i wouldnt read all of it

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minblush · 6 years ago

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Youre one of the only fans I know that really makes me think “deep” haha. There would be times where I wouldnt want to read your opinions not that theyre wrong but because I start feeling negative towards the boys (cos you speak some real af shit) and it makes me feel guilty 🤕 just a weird feeling of disconnect. But I think its healthy to think about these things rather than eating up everything they throw towards us. (1/?)

smoljwimin said:I see fans be so oblivious and fight over petty things when theres actual issues regarding bangtan and BH. Like Alot of them were ok with the nicki issue. If it werent for you voicing it out I wouldve never known there was an issue. Ive never been one to think about these things, I just listen to music and keep it moving but because bts titled themselves as socially aware you cant look past their fuckups. (2/?)

smoljwimin said:Also Idk if its just me but I feel so annoyed when fans call them woke kings haha that to over tiny things. If they wear rainbow coloured clothes then theyre lgbt woke when its their stylists dressing them up and besides yoongi none of them have said anything on it. The list goes on. Regardless of it all, I love the boys and them only so much, like others theyve helped me get (3/?)

smoljwimin said:through my shit so I hope I can disconnect enough where these things stop bothering me but not so much that my love for them dissipate ykwim? Cos idk myself lol. Idk why im telling you this, I just feel like your blog is a good space to share ones opinion *sigh* hope I didnt say anything offensive. xxx (4)

my opinions are just my opinions honestly, i’ve said this many times but i’m just a dumb person with a blog, my opinions aren’t really that deep or anything, i just vent my feelings and i like discussing things with people! i’m a boring person i watch debates in my free time and junk.. but i appreciate that some of my word salad is valuable to you? in some way maybe, if i understand it right haha.. but i’m sorry that there is a feeling of discomfort, like that’s usually connected with cognitive dissonance and i experience it too :( i’m not immune to it… but yeah it’s the same for me.. i’ve stanned idol groups before and i never really held them to such standards because like, they were idols and they were fake and you took what you got, but bts built themselves on the notion that there is more to them, how authentic and genuine they are, socially conscious and outspoken and just real!! so when things happen that contradicts that, it’s just a bit painful, especially if you had believed in them before.. they also helped me through a lot but i feel like i reached the point where i can’t really look past all that stuff as much? i’ve been trying to like re-configure my relationship with them cause i still like them as people and their music, but then this whole issue happened again and it’s just.. hard.. really hard.. and don’t worry, you didn’t say anything offensive and i appreciate you sharing your opinion ;; ♥

Anonymous said:yeah tbh it always made me uncomfortable when people would praise bighit and look up to the company as if they were gods 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ they’re a company and that’s all they are. they care about their business first and foremost. idk i just stan bts and i couldn’t care less about bighit

yeah exactly, i think it’s because both bighit and bts have pushed for this air of family that surrounds them which makes people stan for both the company and the artist, which is what the company wants ofc it makes people more loyal and lenient to managerial mistakes, but yeah, companies by default are there to make money, bighit has shown that really clearly too so..yea

Anonymous said:As someone that was really like.. with them for a while. Almost 3 years starting around I need U I’ve come to a place where I literally can’t be a fan.. like they’ve lost all credibility and sense of just integrity to me. I wonder how u’re still a fan when u see this shit, is it compartmentalizing or? Genuine question btw I’m not judging I just wonder how some bts fans w critical thinking can still have this love for them as a band (not as people- that i get)

i have been with them for a long time too and i agree with you as well, and well yes i have been struggling with this, probably it is compartmentalizing? like for me, i love them as people but now i find it hard to support them as a band or what they stand for cause what is that really? like the day the nicki thing blew up, i got home and took down all my slogans and posters of them and i cried, i was really sad cause that to me was the final nail in the coffin.. and i was gonna stay away from them but also i’m really attached to them and they helped me a lot in my life, i met amazing people thanks to them, and they got me to leave a really toxic relationship after like 7 years of not being able to do so… so to me that meant a lot.. so it’s hard to sever those ties.. it goes very deep for me, ykwim? i like them as people but am hurt and disappointed by what they are as a group these days, right now i wouldn’t say i even stan anymore, casual fan maybe? i just keep an eye on them… kind of hoping that someday things could get better again.. even though it’s naive, i just feel like they are good and talented people.. still somewhere… and that their group and company decisions are bad.. all wrong..

Anonymous said:Dude, you probably have problematic friends too, and either don’t know about it or have forgiven them for whatever stupidity they’ve done in the past that maybe someone else who does not know them is still judging them for. If ppl are unfollowing it’s probably bc they don’t like that rigid and self-righteous world view you are advocating, and pointing fingers at others bc you think they don’t measure up. It is very unpleasant to hear, sorry. Pls reflect instead of faulting others all the time.

false analogy, the rest is an ad hominem fallacy, either way are you really criticizing me for having a strong opinion on things like glorification of pedophilia? mmm well i will continue to do so :) either way if you wanna discuss things critically let me know, i’m always open to discussion and i change my mind easily if new evidence is presented :3

#ask #anon #smoljwimin

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handslows · 8 years ago

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Pretty sure no one should be tolerating the beards when we know how nasty Eleanor was especially towards Harry and then the story of how Danielle basically forced herself on Louis in public came out (plus, if you stick to the narrative, she did cheat on him), and to me both those girls are ugly since they chose to help closet a person. So yeah there's really no reason to be tolerating either of them

ok but like. listen.

this is gonna be long because yall are exhausting me and miss the point every fucking time

i never liked eleanor bc she was annoying and said nasty things about fans and larries and her friends were terrible esp. max. we only heard these bad stories about what she allegedly said about harry AFTER they broke up too. so i didnt particularly like her and she had done her fair share of bad shit across the years but that doesnt mean ppl can say shit about her looks?? which no one did btw. people were far kinder to eleanor than they ever been to danielle.

the thing with danielle is for months and months and months she NEVER said a single word about louis and never posted about him on social media and NEVER interacted with fans (still hasnt). she was just there. but people still spent HOURS talking shit about how bad her shoes and clothes and facial expression were. which was just super unnecessary and nasty. you can not like someone for the job they are doing but attacking a young woman for how she looks is just really fucking low. so i always stood out against that, against the completely unnecessary criticisms. because you know these were not personal criticisms against her, these people wouldve said more or less the same shit about any woman because they dont like what she represents. so yeah, it really fucking annoyed me.

i also lost followers and mutuals for being done with people’s bullshit. people kept projecting so many intentions on her like, people were legit talking like she was forcing herself into louis’ family house bc she was so ‘desperate’. some posts even sounded as if she tricked louis into taking a pic so she could post it on her insta like??? calling her non-expressive resting face ‘smug’ on every pap pics??? like JFC shes not smug shes just!! existing!!! if everyone saw my resting face theyd all call me a bitch. and if she was smiling then she was desperate. so smug or desperate, what a luck. people were losing their fucking minds. i never gave a shit about her, i thought she was a pretty girl doing an annoying job and i wanted her gone as much as everyone else but thats it. except for being a beard (which btw we dont know the details of the contract between the two no matter how much ppl tried to blame her for everything thats bad in the world) she didnt do ANYTHING publicly that was annoying enough or on par with eleanor except existing. people mocked her over how she swung her bag for like, 2 weeks.

the story of danielle allegedly forcing herself on louis happened LATE 2016, like november?? and only got discussed on tumblr like, a month ago, so you using this as an argument is weak. There was no reason to preemptively hate danielle because of this story back in january 2016 no matter how hard you try to convince yourself that your hate was justified. everyone was just being nasty and bitter and going crazy over babygate and losing sight of what their priorities are. that’s it.

even if people had “receipts” on her prior to that that would justify why they hate an unknown nonfamous 21 years girl so much, they never shared it with the fandom as a whole and therefore, the fandom as a whole did not have any reason to hate her this much. literally the only story i heard is that apparently she was rude to a waiter in a restaurant. omg!!! bring out the torches!! this totally justify you spending hours mocking her face!!!! unless youre telling me that “big larries hated her therefore we all hated her too” because thats just sad and another problem altogether. so yeah dont try to use that as a reason of why you said nasty shit about her appearance back in february 2016.

i dont even know why im saying this because…having reasons to hate her will never justify the amount of absolutely deranged comments ive read about the way she looks. it was and will always be totally uncalled for and i cant believe how far this fandom went, i cant believe the stuff adults have written about this thinking it was ok. if she is that much of a terrible person there has to be more shit you can say about her than your subjective opinion that her resting face looks “smug” and that shes desperate for being in the presence of louis. i also cant believe how much people mocked her for not being famous enough even though a recurrent role in tv show is more than most people can achieve and when yall know you wouldve hated her for being famous if she was. so, eleanor was bad because she was non-famous using louis’ money and not going to school, taylor is bad because shes too famous and using 1d and harry’s name for her own career and danielle had a recurrent role in a popular franchise and that still was not ok for yall. i get the point is that youre never gonna “like” any beard no matter what her job is because you hate beards but just ADMIT IT and find other things to talk about instead of making up reasons why shes a bad person.

so, honestly, this isn’t about danielle at all. i dont care about her feelings or whatever. my problems is that for months ive read thousands of comments criticizing this girl for doing ANYTHING. and the worst is that when i was telling people they should probably calm down and that attacking a girl for how she looks is not cool at all, i got hate and lost followers and had mutuals indirecting me. because apparently having human decency was too much for people to handle. because apparently people still dont get that criticizing a girl for how she looks and dress as bigger far-reaching consequences in the long run. for months ive had to see people spreading bullshit and lies about her just because of their assumptions.

and this goes for briana too. that girl is awful and did a lot of fucked up shit and i totally support talking shit about her AS LONG AS ITS FOCUS ON THE BAD THINGS SHES DOING. ive also been disgusted at comments towards briana or ashley shaming her for how they look and i dont find it more acceptable just because i hate them too. theres a line and yall crossed it, like, 12 months ago.

im not saying you have to tolerating neither of them now because of you what found out, im just saying that what you DIDNT KNOW a year ago cannot be used to justify what you did back then.

anyway this isnt about danielle this is about how i still can’t believe i lost hundreds of followers and dozens of mutuals because i argued that talking shit about how she looks was not valid criticism and was a harmful behaviour.

and if you still don’t think that’s fucked up and still wanna defend that nasty behaviour from last year i can’t help you.

#this is like the longest reply ive ever written RIP #rip my followers count #rip the last 5 mutuals i have left #obviously there was other stuff but i fought with people A LOT of this shit #so it was clearly one of the main ones #i remember hwne i was in a group chat with people #this is the reason why they unfollowed me #and im talking about grown ass adults 25 and over #Anonymous

12 notes · View notes

kurakaji · 5 years ago

Note

Like im not trying to be rude but even googling "rick and morty pedophilia" brings up other people who are like "this show is excessive" and KIDS WATCH THIS, the writers know kids watch it even if they aren't 'supposed to' and again, characters literally try to groom Morty multiple times which helps ppl groom kids IRL . Like. I'm not just shouting randomly it's an actual thing. This show is gross & none of the writers should ever be allowed around children, imo.

Now if you're talking about rick grooming morty... I mean yes? Rick literally uses morty, that whole brainwave thing? Rick isnt a good person and doesnt do good things. A bad character doing bad things, paralleled to real life, does not mean the show or creators condone any of it. Seriously. And I really dont think people are going to be getting tips on how to abuse children from a cartoon that features aliens and portal guns, but who knows.

And ffs, this show is on adult swim. Kids can fucking find porn, too. If a show specifically for kids covered this subject matter, obviously that's bad. But to say a show cant explore adult themes and issues bc kids MIGHT see it? Makes no sense. You might as well argue books about bad things shouldnt exist either.

People are allowed to think dark humor is funny. You dont have to think something isnt funny and therefore no one can find it funny. I find suicide jokes funny, others dont. I've dealt with being suicidal, and humor is a way I cope. Just like so many other people. And I respect people who hate them.

And to push anything bad you feel about the show, made by more than these 2 people btw, onto them specifically and suggest they're pedophiles is just super shitty. Sure, call out themes and shit you dont like, I really dont care if you like the show or not. But using your feelings about the show itself and incomplete info on one of its creators to make an unfounded argument isnt chill.

Like make a post detailing different forms of grooming rick or other characters have used. Have calm, reasonable discussions with people. Critical thinking, criticism, etc.

Also I'm pretty sure a few of those points arent accurate but I'm not rewatching the whole damn thing again to make specific arrangements.

0 notes

comicteaparty · 6 years ago

Text

November 29th, 2018 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on November 29th, 2018, from 5PM - 7PM PST. The chat focused on Numb by Niina Eveliina Salmelin.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB START!

Good evening, everyone~! This week’s Thursday Book Club is officially beginning! Today we are discussing Numb by Niina Eveliina Salmelin~! (http://www.NiinaEveliina.com/numb/)

Remember that Thursday discussions are completely freeform! However, every 30 minutes I will drop in OPTIONAL discussion questions in case you’d like a bit of a prompt. If you miss out on one of these prompts, you can find them pinned for the chat’s duration. Additionally, remember that while constructive criticism is allowed, our focus is fun and respectfully appreciating the comic. All that said, let’s begin!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

NiinaEveliina

Hi folks! I'm the author of Numb and actually managed to wake up and join in the chat. Looking forward for the discussion and trying to avoid spilling any spoilers (edited)

RebelVampire

glad to see you could make it~!

i think my favorite scene was perhaps the one in carl and the thief's...mind space for lack of a better phrase for it. i really enjoyed seeing the possession kind of presented as a physical dilemma of sorts and not something that just happened and carl was just gone. but i also liked the entire eeriness of it cause it really opened lots of question doors and set up that intense sense of yup, something definitely is wrong

mathtans

Hiyo, I'm here, though at a moment's notice I'll need to drop everything and help put the little one to bed. ^^ I also only managed to read to the end of Part 5 (so to the end of 2017).

Yeah, some good eerie scenes in general. Rebel, do you mean the bit where Carl was bricking up Carl behind the wall...?

Also, hello to author/artist.

RebelVampire

yes that scene

NiinaEveliina

Hello, glad you could make it!

Ohh the possession sequence was a real joy to do, with figuring out how to do the visuals for it.

mathtans

That was an interesting visual. As for me, three scenes kind of stand out, let's hope I remember these...

I liked the bit near the start when Carl was talking about Amy's imaginary friends. Partly because it made me think of my own daughter (still very wee, granted), and partly because something seemed to be happening in the background, some guy with a hood, and little things like that amuse me. Neat way to make possible exposition less boring.

Second scene that I thought was great, mostly for comedic value, was when Susan was leaving the hospital to have a smoke, and then her cigarette wasn't there - Levi had it. Because of Nikita. Nice sign of things being more than they seemed. Less violent than the vase too, subtle.

RebelVampire

in regards to the first scene i think the event that was going on in the bg was the woman getting possessed by the thief. or at least she looks very similar to the woman who later brings the thief to carl

mathtans

Rebel: Oh wow, good catch.

RebelVampire

i loved nikita's choice of trying to send susan a sign. cause that was hilarious and i wish wed seen what susan was thinking. did she think she was crazy? did she think levi was a weirdo? who knows

nikita is a great trickster though

i loved him freaking out those old ladies with their nasty gossip

NiinaEveliina

Yes, this is correct @RebelVampire. It's that kind of pretty vague hint that readers can spot on their second time. I love putting small things like that in stories

mathtans

I wonder if maybe Susan thought that she'd put the cigarette there, because who else could it have been, and then forgotten.

NiinaEveliina

That cigarette gave Susan hard time, for sure

mathtans

Oh YES, that scene with the ladies going off on that kid, and then just the image of them with their cups upended on them, that was great too.

I'd forgotten that one.

Here's the big one for me though. That scene with Susan at the bottom of the stairs, calling out to Carl. Where the blood underneath her kind of bled (literally?) into the shading of the stairs, and it was just red, and dialled the creepy factor up to 11 for me.

NiinaEveliina

I think it's safe for me to say my favourite part as well? Even though it's really hard to pick, it's gotta be the moment after Thief/Carls attack, where Levi and Nikita meet again. Nikita allows Levi to help him up. and there's a tiny bit of trust formed there, as they walk out the house together. (Also, a big part for me to love that moment was the fact that I was finally able to get Levi out of that hospital bed.)

mathtans

I'm not big on horror, but I'm not so bad with watching it, because usually I can mentally write off supernatural stuff as "not real". So I could appreciate the weird, eerie stuff up to that point, but it didn't make me flinch. But that bit with the stairs - and maybe it's because I kind of saw it coming during the confrontation - that was too real. Too much. Had to walk away from my binge for a few hours there. (I mean this in a good way.)

Niina: That was nice, yes. Levi was kind of at a crossroads there, and it's good that they were able to help each other out, even when Nikita brushed him off.

NiinaEveliina

Gossip grannies always manage to bring out a response out of people @mathtans This kind of stuff is really interesting to hear. I'm glad it was still a good kind of shock for you!

mathtans

Very effective use of colour, and maybe angles and such too.

NiinaEveliina

I'm big fan of horror, so I sometimes have to wonder when I do certain scenes: when it's too much. Hearing this kind of perspective is always good.

RebelVampire

yeah the color work whenever the basement became involved was really great. cause basements are creepy as is, so it was great to see them become as creepy as i expected. lthough i think what really dialed the creepiness up for me in that scene was susan calling out to carl that she thinks shes hurt. because at that point its such a no duh thing that susan's helplessnesss really sinks in. and nothing is more worrisome about the supernatural than the realization you cant do shit about it. Niina: I did enjoy that moment of bonding and understanding. Especially given that Nikita seems kind of stubborn and it was good to see him accept he needed help.

mathtans

One of those "okay, overloaded now" moments. Tough for me to say exactly why.

Rebel: Yeah, the calling out probably helped cement it too, now that you say that. In particular, that she thinks he might help. >.<

NiinaEveliina

I think what makes it horrific, is that Susan and Carl were so close, so there's no way she could have seen it coming. Just a 5 mins ago before thief arrived, Carl was just nagging and worrying about her.

mathtans

Since I don't read a lot of horror, I may not be your target audience either. It's tough for me to say what is or isn't too much there.

Funny thing too btw, I didn't really like Susan. Personal pet peeve about smoking, and she also seemed like something of a killjoy, or one who dishes things out but can't always take it when things turn back towards her novel.

But that death... damn, didn't deserve that. Felt bad.

RebelVampire

its okay math. im not the target audience either, though for the opposite reason. im so numb to it that things that should be scary im just like "seems like a normal tuesday to me." XD

mathtans

(Assuming it's a for sure death - I haven't gotten into the 2018 stuff yet. Maybe she's a ghost now.)

Oooh, title drop by Rebel.

RebelVampire

not even on purpose

missed opportunities

i will spoil it and say its a for sure death minus the ghost issue

which i wanna give props to that

so few stories actually kill someone off

to the point i lived in denial

and was like "nah susan is fine someone will get her help nobody ever dies"

NOPE

mathtans

There is that. Well, that's sad.

Should've died of cancer!

NiinaEveliina

I don't know (about the target audience thing), I find it really hard to put Numb in only horror category and see it more as a mixture of different genres. I'd like to think that all kind of readers will get something out of it. Of course, they have to be able to stomach those extreme scenes as well @mathtans hahaha!

mathtans

Yeah, it's not for sure horror. There's elements of fantasy too.

I'm bad for recognizing genres. Particularly with my own stuff.

RebelVampire

speaking of susan, though, i can see where shed be irritating. but man did carl's nagging about her book feel so relateable because writing is hard and somedays you just want to think nothing about book writing

QUESTION 2. Many of the supernatural events are driven by the appearance of the “thief.” Who or what do you think the thief is? Why is the thief continually transferring bodies? Additionally, what is the thief even running from so desperately? What does this have to do with all the voices, including Tim’s, that Carl hears when he becomes possessed? What do you think the thief’s end goal is? How do you think the thief was able to touch Nikita, and why did the thief seem so sure Nikita was going to hurt it? Also, how are Nikita and the thief connected, if at all? Lastly, do you think Carl will recover from the thief’s possession, or is he forever doomed?

chateaugrief

hello thursday book clubbers! Hi @NiinaEveliina I really enjoyed reading your comic! regarding 'extreme scenes' do you really think that the scenes from numb were extreme? what's everyones opinion on level of blood violence?

mathtans

Also, Levi's apartment and stuff for Susan issues. Though apparently she writes well, according to Nikita.

NiinaEveliina

@mathtans It's fun to see that perspective on Susan! To me her smoking was actually really important. In my childhood most of my family, friends and people around me were heavy smokers. Still they were the ones to tell me hardest "never you start ok" and I actually never have smoked a cig in my life, probably because of those smokey lungs were so much against it, ironically So there's something very nostalgic about her to me.

mathtans

I didn't have an issue with the blood. But it's not really a squick for me, and I wonder if watercolours mutes it a bit?

chateaugrief

I'd agree with mathtans that the abstraction of the art really created a bit of distance for me from the horror elements, muted it a bit perhaps?

mathtans

Niina: That's neat background info! Yeah, my family has some history of asthma and I have an allergy to smoke in particular. So I'm prejudiced against smokers. Nothing personal.

I'm not sure if it distanced me from the horror, just the violence.

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief I'd say the overall themes are pretty heavy and the obvious scenes like throwing Sue down the stairwell and Nikita getting knife'd. From the audience reactions, I'd say those would be the most 'gorey'. @mathtans yeah, all good :)

chateaugrief

good point, there was still major suspense

RebelVampire

id say the scenes in numb were still pretty extreme though, but thats in comparison to contemporary webcomics. and a good majority of "horror" webcomics are actually real mild in comparison. but thats just my opinion and based solely on my reading repitoire, and horror is hard to come by in webcomics in general unless you go looking for it.

mathtans

Regarding the latest question, not quite sure about thief's origins, assuming it's only one person - because I'm pretty sure Tim merged with the thief. Remember how Levi remembered that Tim had changed a bunch before he died? I think there's something to that.

RebelVampire

yeah, im 100% aboard the tim got possessed train

it is the most logical sense

NiinaEveliina

And I gotta say I'm happy that the visuals have been there to distance people from the violence. Because I never wanted Numb to be that kind of shock violence, in-your-face kind of mess. So it was my aim to find balance between the extreme nature of the violence but still keeping it, you know, tasteful.

chateaugrief

that's interesting, @RebelVampire because i've seen a lot of creators tag stuff with the tiniest bit of blood as mature, even in a non-violent context. I didn't think Numb was particularly gory, despite the scenes mentioned. The framing of the shots made them practically happen offscreen...which only heightened that suspense and atmosphere. Was very well done I thought

mathtans

Yeah, some of the framing was pretty well done. Like in the scenes where Carl has the knife.

chateaugrief

yes, those eyes staring out of the blacked out face!

mathtans

So Tim merged with the thief... is he a part of thief now then? Or did he kill himself to try and get away, and is now part of a band of ghosts trying to take thief down? I'm not clear whose side he's on.(edited)

NiinaEveliina

I better keep my mouth shut while the Thief talk, this is very interesting to follow

RebelVampire

nah i wouldnt say it was gory at all, but it was extreme in other ways which is why id still label it as extreme. becuase suspense can do a lot to make mild gore feel extreme. and more the issue with numb is it was realistic. because susan's death was something that could happen to anyone. so gory? definitely not. but extreme in the sense that it would unsettle ppl a lot and probably require a mature tag, yes probably. but again, specification this is compared to contemporary webcomics

if we start including other mediums its super duper mild

NiinaEveliina

@RebelVampire This is very true

mathtans

I mostly just read webcomics for this chat. I don't know what's mainstream.

chateaugrief

i'm such a newbie to webcomics that I probably take my expectations from other mediums. why I'm here, I want to learn.

RebelVampire

no time like the present to get started.

i feel like tim merged with the thief? like i kind of dont feel like you escape the thief once it possesses you

chateaugrief

so @NiinaEveliina how did you decide on the style of art that you chose?

RebelVampire

more likely i think levi mightve killed tim in self defense or something?

so tim is stuck forever

💩💩💩YY 💩💩💩

So I've only gotten to the point where Levi is in the hospital and he claims that there was someone there on the street. 9v9llll And I'm already quaking in mah boots. OH MAN... hides in non-existent sheets

mathtans

Maybe thief is a soul fleeing the grim reaper... except Nikita told Susan to move away from the voices after death, and she'd be fine. So maybe thief is the grim reaper, gone a bit off in the head?

RebelVampire

i kind of get the impression that the thief is an escapee, like the thief escaped a larger entity or escaped death itself. and now its on the run trying to avoid death

cause death sucks

who wants to be dead

nobody

thats who

💩💩💩YY 💩💩💩

This silly bean was not expecting this and now I'm not sure if I have the guts to continue. ; V ; slowly clicks next page

mathtans

Rebel: Oh, maybe. I hadn't considered that (the self defense). Fun fact, it occurred to me that Levi indirectly killed Susan. Because if he hadn't delayed her with his talk about Nikita, she would've left the house to look for Amy, rather than getting locked in by Carl.(edited)

chateaugrief

that was one of the funniest moments when Nikita says 'will you trust me if I tell you that dying is bad and you don't want to be dead'. (edited)

mathtans

Y'know who sucks? Thief. Death seems like the better alternative.

Cuz thief tries to be charming and stuff, then pushes your friends down a flight of stairs.

Going back to chateau's remark, yeah, watercolours is an interesting medium. I think we've only had one other webcomic here that uses them.

chateaugrief

i've seen a lot of webcomics that use digital media that's made to look like watercolor though. It's quite a beautiful look done well!

RebelVampire

man that moment with nikita telling susan about death really sticks to me now that i know susan be dead for real. cause the entire time i was like "this is strange advice for a character who isnt going to die."

and then the death was real

so now im like "great and depressing advice there nikita"

as another thief theory, i think the thief continually is transferring bodies to get rid of the voices of all the souls its kind of absorbed along its travels, but ironically the more it transfers the mroe souls it gathers

a tragic cycle

mathtans

That's a great theory. Snake eating it's own tail sort of thing.

chateaugrief

it did appear to absorb souls didn't it? I just realized that

incidentally, I found that listing the characters for every page was Super Useful for me as a new reader to keep everyone semi-straight in my head. Kudos

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief I decided the artstyle based on what I wanted to learn to do basically. I was terrible with watercolors/colors in general, and knew that if I used those in Numb, I'd HAD to learn them eventually Of course now they play such a big role in the comic, I cant even imagine numb without color anymore. Otherwise the cartoony/mangaish mishmash style was chosen because it allows me to really have fun with character expressions and go wild with them. I also take lot of inspiration from animation, and wanted to give a sense of movement to the characters with my best ability.

mathtans

Related to thief, I wonder what the deal is with the wheat field.

RebelVampire

the wheat field seems related to death in some way? cause it conveniently showed up when susan died

so maybe its the grim reaper?

chateaugrief

@NiinaEveliina thank you so much for choosing color. I have to thank every comic creator who goes the extra mile and uses color. It's hard, but it's so worth it! Really makes the story pop. How could those pages with the blood look half as good in black and white?

RebelVampire

or the bad grim reaper

chateaugrief

grain reaper

mathtans

You win the evening with that comment.

NiinaEveliina

hahaha

Superjustinbros

Hey there!

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief heck yea, color all the way!

Superjustinbros

Hope I'm not too late.

NiinaEveliina

Hi!

Superjustinbros

Hello!

chateaugrief

back on the character styles being a mix of manga and western, I thought that was a very interesting balance, I tend to prefer western style so that's what I saw...but now thinking about it I can see the influence of both. Interesting line to walk!

NiinaEveliina

tbh, all these thief, nikita's advice and the field theories are making my day

Superjustinbros

Manga/western mixes are perhaps one of my favorites so it's always good to see works that adapt to that style~

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief Theres a big blend probably because my childhood influences came from all directions, western, euro and japanese comic were all around from an really early age, so they have fused together in my style I think

chateaugrief

@NiinaEveliina any works that you consider to have particularly inspired you?

mathtans

Maybe when thief started out, they didn't possess people. Hence hanging around in forests as a disembodied voice. Maybe the people thing is more recent.

Maybe it's something Tim did.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 3. Nikita is perhaps the most mysterious individual in the story. How do you think Nikita became a ghost (or whatever you think he is)? How long do you think he’s been that way? What might it have to do with what he told Susan after he found her injured? Why do you think Nikita has been avoiding Levi since the incident at Carl’s house? Is it fear or is Nikita just still mad about Levi’s dealings with everyone? In the comic, we also see some of Nikita’s life. What do you think happened to Nikita’s dad and mom given the medicine both seem to require? Who is Misha, and why did it cause Nikita’s mom to have a temporary meltdown? What do you think happened with Nikita’s relationship with Julia, whether in the past or in the current timeline?

thats an interesting thought that tim did something

maybe tim was the first

started the whole chain

chateaugrief

sounds plausible. I'm not to the part where we see nikita's backstory yet...at least I don't think I was

mathtans

Tim performed a ritual. Bad Tim.

chateaugrief

I was curious as to why Nikita just 'dropped Levi as a friend' after being friendly to him. I didn't understand why he did it. It felt like Nikita overreacted to whatever it was Levi said, and i couldnt' see why.

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief Donald Duck stories from the great Carl Barks and Don Rosa, Bone from Jeff Smith, Battle Angel Alita, Rumiko Takashi's work and Sandman are the first few comics that pop to my mind. The list is endless There's also huge influence from films on numb. Old italian horror films such as Suspiria and the beyond are great examples, especially for the trippy visuals.

mathtans

Here's one thing I wondered about Nikita and his interactions. When he threw the vase, it was like there wasn't a vase in the room. When he spilled the chess pieces, the guy thought he hadn't brought them. Can Nikita actually destroy our reality? Or are our brains that desperate to think of explanations for the stuff he does?

Levi has issues. Don't want them to rub off. ^^

chateaugrief

@NiinaEveliina ah .... some one's I've seen and some I haven't. I'll be sure to check them out

RebelVampire

i think its the latter, that our brains reject the supernatural so hard core we invent whatever seems the most logical to compensate.

cause susan especially seems that type

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief I swear the list changes every time I'm asked, there's just so many :D

RebelVampire

who will pick any reason that does not include the supernatural

mathtans

OH. Just thought of something. Carl could see Nikita. Tim could see things too, and possibly Amy. Maybe thief can only possess people who can see things like Nikita. Might be why he never tried for Susan.

The only way to protect yourself is not to believe.

RebelVampire

i suppose thats possible, although we have an immensely small sample size

and couldnt carl only see nikita after he was possessed?

mathtans

Carl gave Nikita an apple in an early scene.

But yeah, not necessarily enough people to draw conclusions.

RebelVampire

i dont remember this. i remember carl giving an apple to the lady that was possessed by the thief

mathtans

Oh, was it the lady? Maybe I got crossed up. It was the first time we saw Nikita, outside the hospital?

RebelVampire

http://www.NiinaEveliina.com/numb/comic/chapter-1-25-2/

mathtans

Ah, you're right, wires got crossed. We saw that apple later, and it was kind of rotten, so that makes sense too.

RebelVampire

on a side note, i enjoyed thief!carl punching nikita. cause the look on nikita's face was priceless. not that i cheer for his pain, but man was that a great expression because he didnt expect it at all

mathtans

True that.

I wonder if being in the proximity of death made him visible and corporeal to everyone. That's why Susan could see him.

RebelVampire

i think more likely the thief was special and susan was the one whose dyingness made her able to see him

since the topic of nikita and levi's relationship was brought up, i feel like nikita is just slow to trust and i feel like hes been a ghost long enough that hes not as used to having to tell ppl where hes going and such

chateaugrief

speaking of punching Nikita...he was a ghost right? do ghosts bleed? perhaps the punch made him non spectral?

punched straight out of the afterlife.

RebelVampire

i feel like it did make him non spectral

although im really curious about whether or not he couldve actually died again

mathtans

Maybe Nikita's having issues as a ghost, because he can't take his meds any more. Gets harder and harder to talk to people.

I feel like it might've been worse than death. Even after the wounds "healed", Nikita said it still hurt.

chateaugrief

only thing creepier than a ghost is a ghost obsessively swallowing adhd meds

NiinaEveliina

punched straight out of the afterlife... just to get stabbed. No wonder he's salty(edited)

mathtans

"One Punch Carl".

chateaugrief

Carl was the boss. I liked his character. Susan was a bit hard on him, seemed to see criticism from him at every turn, but I felt like it was genuine concern coming from him.

I could be confusing Susan with the other girl....

RebelVampire

i see both sides of the carl susan relationship. cause im sure his concern was genuine, but at the same time i also understand how concern eventually becomes nagging

ya know who really got the short end of the stick in all this story though?

amy

amy basically has little to no agency

and all this bad shit keeps happening

and everyone is lying to her

mathtans

I do shake my head at the one Carl scene. Where his daughter, who's already established as someone who maybe skips classes, talks about going into the woods. And Carl's like, "yeah, don't do that, okay go out to the bus now". Like, maybe watch her board the bus? What did you have to do that was so important?

RebelVampire

about whats going on

chateaugrief

yes that was the other girl! couldn't remember her name she had so little agency

mathtans

Yeah, Amy's imaginary friends even gave themselves up for her.

chateaugrief

poor girl, she was trying

mathtans

I'm really bad with names, usually. Not sure why I haven't tripped up yet. Maybe it's the reasonably sized cast?

Or the tags.

chateaugrief

I really liked the tags

but I only discovered they were there at about chapter 3

it really cleared up the characters a bit for me, but i'm kinda fuzzy on some of them

RebelVampire

math you havent even gotten to the sadder part with the imaginary friends XD

that broke my heart a bit for them

cause tbf they probably arent imaginary

mathtans

Oh noes. O.o

I wondered about that.

RebelVampire

but that is debateable tbf

i dont think theyre imaginary though

mathtans

Okay, we haven't had enough crazy theories yet. So, Nikita's dad is really also Tim's dad. They're half brothers. Boom!

RebelVampire

cuse if they are amy is super creative and has way better designed imaginary friends then i ever did

chateaugrief

......O.O.......

mathtans

tbf I think Amy is super creative. She was trying to do drawings and stuff. (Though she may be creative but not have art skill.)

chateaugrief

and she was very young, she was definitely trying. She's not dead yet is she? plenty of room for character development

mathtans

Also, she's adopted. Boom! shrugs

RebelVampire

amy definitely isnt dead

yet

QUESTION 4. Levi has his own mysteries and problems going on, past and present. What do you think happened between him, Susan, and Tim given certain flashbacks we’ve seen? What do you think Levi and Tim saw that day in the woods, and why were only Levi and Tim able to see it? Why did Levi lie to dream Susan about not seeing Tim sometimes in his dreams? In other words, what is Levi emotionally avoiding? Do you think that Levi will be able to get over what happened at Carl’s house? Also, do you believe that he will be able to help Amy? What about Kiwi who seems to have known Nikita and who is now Amy’s roommate? Finally, do you believe Levi is safe from the thief, or are the two destined to encounter each other again?

chateaugrief

Nyarlathotep

is the dad

mathtans

Levi and Tim seemed to see an opening, if memory serves?

Also, Levi seems to have trust issues. Like, he doesn't seem to think anyone will believe him. Including himself, maybe.

RebelVampire

i think levi is more afraid of being alone and ostracized

that is the impression i get from him

which is why he does what he must to fit in with the club

mathtans

Actually, Tim was always Levi's imaginary friend. Levi believed so hard that Susan could see Tim too.

Yeah, he doesn't want to be alone, I can see that.

RebelVampire

im still gonna go with the levi hurt tim in self defense when tim went psycho possessed. and that in turn tore the group apart cause nobody wanted to talk about what happened.

that would be an amazing twist for tim

mathtans

What if Levi actually was the first one possessed by thief. And it ended up going to Tim. And that's why Levi has abandonment issues.

I can't tell if I'm doing crazy theories or normal ones.

RebelVampire

i think that one still qualifies as crazy but i mean its not implausible

chateaugrief

I really don't have enough info to make theories.... these sound good. I could go with any of these

mathtans

Do we know much about Carl's wife?

RebelVampire

no but i assume dead

because youre not to the part but they send amy to an orphanage

because they cant get in contact with any other relatives

mathtans

Gotcha. Wondered if Levi knew her in some way. Not sure if it's connected.

RebelVampire

idk

tbh ive really been trying to figure out how carl knows them and what the nature of their relationship is

cause carl has like 10 to 20 years on them

mathtans

Yeah. School related? Carl's job?

RebelVampire

and im not sure if this is like one of those small town where everyone just knows everyone

mathtans

Anyway, you'll have to theorize without me. Time to put little one to bed.

chateaugrief

i wondered about that, Carl looks about 50, so were the levi/susan crowd about in their 20's or perhaps late teens?

RebelVampire

ok. thanks for coming, math~!

levi is apparently late 20s and susan early 30s

by their cast pages

NiinaEveliina

@mathtans thanks for joining the chat and giving numb a change despite not being such a horror fan!

chateaugrief

I may have been thrown off by the lack of visible employment by the levi/susans, though maybe I just missed that. I've got to learn to slow down when i read webcomics. There's such a temptation to go so fast!

NiinaEveliina

The ages are pretty vague, because I don't want to forget and then conflict myself later, but it wouldn't be much of a spoiler to give a little background on Carl and Susan (I think it's on their cast info pages as well so it's not a spoiler even) but Carl was a family friend to Susans parents, who were working a lot and going abroad, so Carl looked after Susan a lot, and is basically her father figure. Carl knows Levi and Tim through Susan, since those three were childhood pals.

chateaugrief

that makes sense, it makes sense of the character dynamics too.

RebelVampire

ok that does add more context and makes more sense. and also explains why carl keeps nagging susan like a dad

or kept

cause susans dead

and carl is close to dead

now im sad

chateaugrief

pretty unlucky family, perhaps a familial curse?

RebelVampire

i just hope amy is not next on this path of death and destruction

chateaugrief

now that susan's dead I'm going to have to adjust my feelings on who is the protagonist of the story. I would have said her over Levi, but I guess it's all up to Levi now.

NiinaEveliina

Being amy is suffering

chateaugrief

Speaking of protagonists and plots and stuff @NiinaEveliina do you have a completed plot/script for this comic or are you more freeform making it up in episodes as they come?

RebelVampire

i always felt levi was the protagonist, though susan was a main character for sure. but susan seemed to have a smidgen less agency than levi in terms of who the protagonist is.

NiinaEveliina

@chateaugrief Everything is on my head, as I'm dreadful at actually writing things down, but the whole story has a script/plot that I follow. But I'm open with it in a way that I know what will happen, but HOW it will happen is free to change if the story seems to drift more to other way. As I have done this comic further, I learn to know the characters more, so some actions I planned for them may not make sense anymore, or just that they would go about it differently. Those kind of things may change.

I have vague idea how many pages the story will need, but as I do chapters, I don't have set page number for them. (that's something I will start using on my next project after numb, but with Numb I'm gonna roll with the flow)

chateaugrief

I always wonder about the page numbering thing because of the strict expectations with print form comics on page counts and things, at least in American comics. It always sounded very hard to structure your story around pages that way

NiinaEveliina

Yeah, but I can see the perks in that too. Helps you to trim down the story and keep on track with things.

chateaugrief

that's something I really should ask, you use some very complicated page layouts, and I think they flow quite well. How do you plan your pages, do you begin with the panel structure and fit your story to the panels or what?

choosing panel structures has always been mysterious to me

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- THURSDAY BOOK CLUB END!

Sadly, this wraps up this week’s Thursday Book Club chat for now. Thank you so much to everyone for reading and joining us! We want to give a special thank you to Niina Eveliina Salmelin, as well, for making Numb. If you liked the comic, make sure to support Niina Eveliina Salmelin’s efforts however you’re able to~!

Read and Comment: http://www.NiinaEveliina.com/numb/

Niina’s Ko-Fi: https://ko-fi.com/A3202ONF

Niina’s Redbubble: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Speardog?asc=u

Niina’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/NSalmelin

Comic Tea Party- Thursday Book Club

Next week’s Thursday Book Club will be about Pin Porter Girl Detective by Robin Gee and Ethan Bartlett. For participants, you have the next week to read as much of the comic as you would like~! We hope to see you on Thursday, December 6th, from 5PM to 7PM PST for the chat in #thursday_bookclub!

Comic’s Main Site: http://pinporterdetective.com/

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indie comics #comic chat #comic discussion #book club #bookclub #webcomic book club #webcomic bookclub #comic tea party #ctp #numb #niina eveliina salmelin

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maelien · 7 years ago

Text

stupid dumb Blizzard/Overwatch discourse below the cut

okay so i never thought i would ever post about discourse, but here i am. but since literally nobody wants a giant thing on their dash, im gonna put this below the cut. i apologise to anyone on mobile who has to scroll past this. anyways this post is about this:

by @yubird

btw im in agreement with the statement of this image, so if you dont care, feel free to scroll by. i dont expect anyone to read this tbh.

first of all, i want to preface this with the fact that while i do not play Overwatch, nor do i follow any of the lore or news, i still want to present some criticism because by being a public company, Blizzard is showing their creations to the world, which are therefore open for all kinds of feedback, positive or negative or even constructive. this isnt me bashing on Blizzard; i think theyre doing great things with the amounts of diversity in Overwatch, and from what i know, they pay a lot of attention to detail when it comes to game design and extra assets and whatnot. i just want to critique the same face syndrome that a lot of people have been pointing out lately.

so earlier today i got in a debate with some friends of mine about the idea that all Overwatch women have the same face. im gonna compile some of my friends’ arguments and my own arguments here, as well as some counter-arguments which were presented to me by my friends or by people discussing this topic online.

this is just because i feel like everyone who points out this same face syndrome doesnt really know why it bothers them, so here are some points i want to make.

first of all, upon asking my friend what they thought of the debate, they said they agree that all the Overwatch women’s faces look the same, stating that they knew this because “i have eyes,” as they put it. i just thought this would be a funny thing to put here, and it in no way is meant to derail the legitimate arguments which they or i have.

some other things this friend said (slightly edited for grammar or missing context from previous statements):

“the female hero that looks the most different is Zarya but her face is just wider, they still all have very similar nose and eye shapes, their facial designs are very plain in-game”

“it’s similar to frozen in how yes they look different but they all look very similar”

“in the cinematics the women look very different but in-game it’s almost like there was one basic model that was slightly tweaked for each character” (this is a point that i will mention and address later on)

“like damn if youre gonna have ‘em look different for the cinematography you cant adapt even just a little more of that into the game itself?”

“did u notice how small the noses on the black characters were” (this is addressing the models which Blizzard released, which are seen below)

another friend of mine had these statements to offer (slightly edited for grammar or missing context from previous statements):

“Okay, like, how many paintings or images or films or books have been about ugly females? The answer is not whole hell of a lot. Art, in general whether we’re talking about games, books, paintings, poems, films, they all have a problem with making ugly female characters. Even characters that are supposed to be “ugly” are often just a different shades of beauty and people find that beauty later. Meanwhile, a man could use his ugliness to his advantage, like Shrek, or the Beast, two ugly characters that frighten and intimidate people. I can’t think of any other “ugly” female character in the popular culture other than Fiona [from Shrek], maybe you have one?”

“Overwatch is guilty, yes, but it’s more indicative of a systemic problem overall. When humans tell stories about females, their beauty in some form or another has to be addressed” (i appreciated this friend’s application of this issue to the bigger picture outside of Overwatch because it definitely needed to be addressed alongside Blizzard’s same face syndrome)

a third friend had these things to say on the topic (slightly edited for grammar or missing context from previous statements):

“I suppose they do only add traditionally beautiful girls on there. It’s totally fair to say that they put more effort into the model design of the dudes than the girls.”

“Yah there is definitely a focus on accessories and ensuring feminine traits in the girls.”

“In general creating more variety in the way people are presented helps everyone.”

some counter-arguments i received were (slightly edited for grammar or missing context from previous statements):

“Mercy has shallow cheeks and a long face, Mei has a short face with chubby cheeks, Ana has a distinct grandma face” (i personally feel like Ana looks about 35 at most)

“Mercy has a pointy chin, Pharah has a flat square chin”

“Tracer has a flatter round chin”

“Even that overlay of Mercy’s face onto [Brigitte]… The jaw? Different. Mercy has shallower cheeks. The chin? Not even close to the same shape. The nose? Mercy has a much thinner, longer nose.” (referring to the image below)

(from @arimarushunya)

i received other counter-arguments that were made during a verbal conversation, but i dont remember them. however, i will provide counter-arguments below during my argument.

i am pulling the next part of this post from a long discussion i had with a friend about this matter, and they provided good counter-arguments that are very important to include during my argument because i do not want anyone to think that i am not aware of other ways that people may look at this, nor do i wish for anyone to think that i refuse to listen to other views.

i agree with some of the counter-arguments, but i still stand by my criticism that there could be more effort put in. do i expect that, though? absolutely not. this is just my opinion and nothing more. just a commentary on some person’s irrelevant blog.

first of all, the fact that many of the men’s faces look literally so different from each other needs to be addressed. each one is very unique, or at least a good portion of them. for example:

Roadhog has a really round head.

Junkrat has a banana-shaped head.

McCree has a square jaw.

Hanzo has a very strong brow and jawline.

Torbjorn has a very compressed face.

Winston is a fucking gorilla for chrissake.

many of the male characters in Overwatch have something very unique and discernible from the other male characters. while i do concede that some male models are similar to each other, and some male models wear masks or are not even human (my mention of Winston is half-joking, as i know many people consider him to be a different category, but i also think it should be noted that there are no non-human (or at least, non-human-like) women in Overwatch), i think that the amount of distinctly different male models in comparison to the amount of distinctly different female models is….. annoying. lazy. boring. embarrassing, even.

my biggest point is that the people who have an issue with this same face syndrome is that we’re tired of seeing the same model with tiny changes made to it. you can only look at the same woman with slightly different features so many times before you start to ask, “is this it?” give us something new to look at, Blizzard!

now, a counter-argument i received was that you dont really look at the face much in game. my friend said, “faces, in a game where faces are barely seen, barely matter. in the cinematics they matter a lot.” while i acknowledge the truth behind the argument that you dont look at the characters’ faces much while playing, i still think that the faces do hold some significance, because otherwise all the male models would have the same faces in-game. Blizzard has taken the time to carefully create these incredibly unique models for each male character, but when it comes to creating the female characters’ models, Blizzard sort of gives up and barely changes the default model they seem to use. this isnt a matter of unimportance as it is a matter of laziness.

the best example of this is with Brigitte, who is the most recent addition to the heroes gallery. in her cinematic, she is seen as broad-shouldered with a round face, round eyes, olive or tan skin, a round chin, thick lips, green/hazel eyes and brown hair. however, when it comes to her in-game model, well… she doesnt exactly live up to that. her in-game model has reddish hair, brown eyes, a slender face, a pointed chin, light skin, almond-shaped eyes, and a thin upper lip. she almost doesnt look like the same person! you can see the differences in the image below.

(from @flambxyant)

now, some people commented on the post that this image is from that the engines used for the cinematics and the game are different. and while i concede that these arent the same, and therefore it would be difficult to make an exact replica of the cinematic version of Brigitte in the game engine, i feel like she still falls short of what could be accomplished. if the problem was truly the difference in the engines, then you would see a similar change in the male models between the cinematic engine and the game engine. however, Blizzard seems to have no problem replicating models in both engines, except for when it come to the female models. thats the problem that people have; they arent being nit-picky, as some may argue – this is an actual issue that many people are noticing.

as seen in previous images, Brigitte has been compared to Mercy, who is a popular support character in the game (Brigitte is also a support character), as well as to D.VA and Tracer, who are not support characters (im not really sure what the categories are other than support tbh). the issue which is being presented is that many of the Overwatch women have very similar faces; even if they have some unique features, the female models in Overwatch still do not stray too far from the base model which is clearly detectable in all of them. you do not really see this as clearly in the male models, as each of them has been changed to express the character’s personality or background. it is more difficult to pick up on a character’s personality or background when looking at the female models; you can kind of gauge that Ana is older and may have been in a war because she has vaguely wrinkled skin and an eye patch, but other than that, the women of Overwatch arent exactly telling their stories unless you read their lore.

another issue i have to address is that, while all of the characters have a unique backstory, not everyone playing Overwatch is interested in that; some people just want to play the game. and when you have a heroes gallery with a plethora of unique male models to choose from, and then basically the same face on all of the female models, it feels kind of…. lacking. like, “oh wow, a new character!” but how new is the character if youre just looking at the same model with slight changes in the face and a repaint? you might as well just be getting a different skin and slapping it onto one available option.

my issue here is that having unique lore doesnt counteract the fact that the female models all look very similar to each other. when youre playing the game, youre looking at the model. sure, you get different weapons and armour, but it’s the same figure. and honestly, i kind of get the feeling that Blizzard tries to give each female model a sense of uniqueness by changing their armour or clothes instead of their model shape or size.

it just doesnt feel right when you compare it to how unique each male model is. you feel refreshed when looking at each male character because they all have a unique silhouette; theyre easily discernible from the others. however, the female models all have rather similar silhouettes: tall and slender. this isnt to completely disregard Mei and Zarya, but really, those two are essentially the only unique silhouettes out of all the of female models.

while im not disparaging the fact that Blizzard has created unique lore for each character, i still feel like having as much model diversity in the female models as is in the male models would be nice. like, i think everyone can agree that having different silhouettes in the male models is really refreshing to look at, and in turn, having different silhouettes in the female models would be just as pleasant.

i feel as though Blizzard is apprehensive about going out of their comfort zone when creating female models. they kind of seem to default on slender, attractive faces with thin noses. this isnt to say that non-slender faces or big noses cant be attractive; i am saying that Blizzard sticks to western beauty standards when creating their female models. my friend made a counter-argument that the target audience is men, and therefore the women characters are often going to be designed to appeal to this audience. while i understand the reason why Blizzard would do this, as appealing to this audience will likely raise their profits and positive reception, i still feel like they are missing out on a lot of potential that the company has. like, let’s be real here……. if there are people who will main Junkrat and want to bone down with his nasty ass, then im pretty sure that there would be people who would enjoy a less conventionally attractive female character.

i have an issue with the fact that Blizzard wont even attempt to create a unique female model. it’s almost as if they made Zarya and Mei and were like “thats good! no more!” but yet they will make a gorilla; and a really fat guy; and a skinny, unkempt, hunched over dude. but they wont even try to accomplish anything like that when creating a female model. sure, Ana is sort of hunched over to indicate her age, but she still maintains a relatively dainty posture.

Overwatch gets praise for the diversity seen in their characters, and while my friend made a counter-argument that it might just be for national diversity – or racial diversity, or whatever you wanna call it when people come from different parts of the world – i still feel like this diversity is lacking in the women of Overwatch. the men of Overwatch have all sorts of body types: short, tall, skinny, fat, muscled, disabilities, etc…… but the women have significantly less body types: you have Zarya, who is broad-shouldered and has muscles; you have Mei, who is plus-sized – or fat, or thicc if you prefer; you have Ana who is old and sort of shows it; you have Sombra who is slightly shorter than the rest of the characters, but not by much; you have Moira who is slightly taller than the rest of the characters, but not by much….. but generally, all of the women of Overwatch look pretty much the same. theres not much diversity seen there.

now, again, do i expect Blizzard to change the way they design female characters? no, because as my friend stated, “…their current formula is working out quite well…” i just wish that when people look at the characters in Overwatch, they could have something new to see in each and every character. it’s tiring to see pretty much the same woman with different clothes when the men of Overwatch are so distinct from each other.

and yes, while i do not play Overwatch, or any video games for that matter, that doesnt mean my argument is pointless. sure, i dont expect anything to come of it, but it’s at least food for thought, you know? and if you think about it, the lack of diversity in the female models in Overwatch doesnt do much good in showing the creative abilities of Blizzard, which is a public company and therefore trying to sell their product to an audience who very likely wants to buy something unique and impressive. thats not to say Overwatch isnt impressive – i actually find the art style to be extremely attractive, and the fact that it is such a popular game goes to show that the company is doing something right. but that doesnt mean that the game is flawless; it just means the flaws are often overlooked or just accepted by the consumers and creators.

you see, when i look at a character and see how unique and detailed their physical design is in comparison to other characters that it is associated with, i am able to tell that the person who made that character put a lot of time, care, and thought into that character in order to make it stand out as its own individual. when looking at how similar the women of Overwatch look to each other, i cant help but feel that there is a lack of time, care, and thought going into them. you can tell the creators thought a lot about each man in Overwatch, as they all look like individuals compared to one another; however, this isnt very present when looking at the women of Overwatch.

you see, you need to put care and effort into all of your characters in order for people to take your diversity seriously. if youre presenting all of the same models for the women, but really unique models for the men, sure, you have representation for women, but it kind of feels like you see women as identical and incapable of being as unique as men can be, which is just lazy and kind of sexist. and im not trying to get into a really stupidly obnoxious “this is sexist!” argument, because tbh i hate those, but like…. i just wanna see some new stuff brought to the table. something to really make you go, “wow, that character really stands out from the others!”

i dont feel like my opinion of the game – or really anyone’s opinion of the game – would change if Overwatch were to have more diverse female models, but i do think that people, no matter what their opinions of the game were, would at least be able to look at the character and be able to tell that at least the creators put thought and care into each character. while there definitely is care and thought seen in each character, i dont really see an issue with some people wishing there was just a bit more for the women of Overwatch.

anyways that basically all i have. if you made it this far, i appreciate you reading all of this. feel free to message me or something about this (on @nuketowncryptid since i dont have any messaging system set up on this blog because it’s pointless) if you wanna talk about it. anyways, thank you so much for reading what i have to say. you dont have to share this if you dont want to, and again, i really dont want to have anyone feel like im pushing my opinions on them; i just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. overall, im just glad to see people are at least enjoying the game because in the end, thats what really counts.

#feel free to scroll past this my dudes #im not trying to sway you or annoy you in any way #also i feel like writing this is really good for me because i need to work on my argumentative essay skills #but anyways im sorry if this annoys you #brigitte discourse #overwatch #blizzard #same face syndrome #overwatch discourse #blizzard discourse

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comicteaparty · 7 years ago

Text

August 24th, 2017 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on August 24th, 2017, from 5PM - 7PM PDT. The chat focused on Tangled River by snowshadow.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

Good day everyone~! This week’s Comic Tea Party is now officially beginning. Today we are discussing Tangled River by snowshadow~! (https://tapas.io/series/Tangled-River) For those new to CTP, discussions about the comic are freeform, so please feel free to bring up whatever you wish. However, every 30 minutes I will be dropping in a discussion question to help those who would like a prompt. These questions are totally OPTIONAL to answer so pay them no mind if you wish~! Remember, constructive criticism is allowed, but the primary focus here is to have fun and appreciate the amazing comics that the community makes~! Each chat a top comment will be picked and featured on an ad for this chat, so let’s have a great discussion~!

With that said, let us begin with this first question~!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

mathtans

I'm going to go with the scene just before Tanya walked into the council chamber. Basically telling her friends to vamoose, and the guy was like "yup, don't tell me twice" and Licorice gave attitude but left... felt very true to character, and like a turning point, and I think I was right about that.

RebelVampire

i found it really funny how licorice gave her attitude. until tanya told her what she was going to do and then was like nvm you are crazy bye

although man i feel like there is some really intense generational divide. which makes sense for the situation. but at the same time im really curious why they felt it was so dire they keep it to themselves that terra nova crashed

mathtans

Yeah... I feel a little awkward about that, actually. Because I'm older, and a teacher to boot, I have this tendency to shake my head a lot at the beta kids, because of some of the things they do. I am not necessarily the audience for this comic.

I feel like there may be a bunch of reasons, anything from it meaning they're not getting help, it's orbit has been decaying because it was affected by the rest of the tech stuff, to the exact opposite. It might be working and change the balance of power everywhere. Not something you'd normally tell people.

I guess what I'm saying is, I find myself on the side of the "interfering" adults a lot of the time.

RebelVampire

thats fair. i mean i dont disagree with them. albeit i tend to try and see both sides. cause i mean for sure the betas are kids and dumb. but such is the nature of kids. but i can understand their frustration. especially licorice cause i totally agree that in their situation its way more practical to learn survival skills than it is to learn history and such. not to denounce the importance of history. just being able to study history seems more like a luxury. but regardless i do think the comic means for you to see the adult side too and not just empathize with the kids.

mathtans

Yeah, I do have to give massive, MASSIVE props to the author for the realism there. They definitely feel like real kids with real, believable issues. Just, geez, the way they deal with authority... but that's my personal issue. It's good that you can approach it from both sides.

(But, y'know Tanya, if you HAD listened in geography class, like you yourself said... okay, okay...)

RebelVampire

haha tanya is admittedly kind of dumb. but im gonna give her some slack if only because her upbringing clearly was lacking. like part of me wtfs the adults' ability to parent because theyre like "ah yeah this woman here is depressed and looks barely capable of caring for her child. i could do something but nah, she can raise tanya probably."(edited)

mathtans

Licorice is actually a peculiar character. I took something of a disliking to her from the start. Just with the way she seemed to be "out for herself" more than caring about her friends. I've sort of warmed up, but I think it's a bit at the expense of Tanya, because of how she actually isn't as observant as she wants to think.

Yeah, Tanya needs slack because of the mom depression issue. I wonder if she's not prone to the same sort of symptoms down the road, or maybe there's already hints.

When you're basically taking care of your parent for years, you probably do think you can just trek out into the wilderness. Couple that with the fact that you want to STAY with the parent you've been caring for, and I can see why Tanya pulled the stunt she did with the medication. Still kind of a low blow though. I'm glad she told in the end.

RebelVampire

haha another moment where i questioned the parenting. like i know the alpha made her a promise, but this is one of those moments where if he broke the promise i dont think too many ppl would consider it bad parenting at least. cause tanya is clearly the most useless member on the team and putting everyone at risk, just like they thought she would. but at the end her motivations and actions do all make sense

also

i definitely do have mixed feelings about licorice. cause she is very selfish and tbh i think shes an awful friend. since she only ever seems to get tanya into trouble or gets mad at her for reasons even im still like "what why would you be mad about that child?"

mathtans

Oh, whew, not only me then. I wouldn't say she only ever gets Tanya in trouble (she did help kill that animal thing, and there's times when Tanya gets herself in trouble by bringing up the wrong thing in the first place) but we don't see her really caring on those times when Tanya's trying to do the right thing (like not steal the key, or is worried about where she went).

Licorice seems a good friend to Kobei. Less to Tanya, and yet Tanya's the one worried about their relationship. Like, if you have to worry that much, I'm sorry dear, maybe you need to find a new bestie.

RebelVampire

definitely a new bestie

QUESTION 2. Tanya’s life changes drastically after she witnesses Terra Nova crash to the planet. Having blackmailed her way onto the expedition, she and several Alphas travel out into the wild to find Terra Nova and salvage what they can. Do you think they will manage to find Terra Nova eventually, or will they retreat back to safety? If they do find Terra Nova, what do you think they will find, and how will it affect Tanya and everyone else?

mathtans

I wouldn't mind seeing more Licorice/Kobei, actually. Because obviously Licorice has good qualities, Kobei seems pretty on the ball about stuff.

RebelVampire

yeah i agree. itd be nice to see their relationships delved into more. albeit i also just like kobei in general cause kobei is pretty capable and also decently nice since he had more patience for tanya

mathtans

I don't see them retreating back to town. I might see them getting shanghai-ed back somehow, or Tanya somehow having to turn back, but they seem pretty committed. I have no idea what they'll find there though, I think more information has to come out first, like from her mom's fevered dreams.

Assuming they all survived that assult in recent pages. Wow, that went south quickly.

Kobei's an interesting window into life on the planet before humans arrived. Actually, related, I wonder how much of a language the author created. When Licorice and Kobei talk to each other, we don't really get to understand them, but I'm thinking there's gotta be a dictionary Snowshadow created.

RebelVampire

im certain theres at least a dictionary of commons phrases just to keep everything straight. idk tho. i mean i can definitely see leeway to take liberties.

in regards to the terra nova i dont think theyll retreat, albeit at this point it may be hard for them to even find their way back. although if those alphas did survive that assault maybe they go back while tanya and them go forward.

mathtans

They've still got maps. That should be helpful.

RebelVampire

part of me wants them to find nothing of substance just cause i cant imagine anything abandoned that long is in good shape and crashing into a planet is also not good

mathtans

Btw, I'm not sure you really answered Q1

I feel like there will be losses on this journey. I kind of want there to be something, even if it's just confirmation of some theory they had, to make those losses worthwhile.

Hopefully not more skeletons. That was kinda creepy.

RebelVampire

im gonna hope tanya finds like one book. maybe a cook book. a cook book sounds useful in their situation

and no i didnt answer Q1 O_O youve seen through my schemes

mathtans

Oh! Hey, excellent call, I'd forgotten about the rarity of books. As long as they're not all technical manuals, that could be really useful.

I am very clever about schemes.

RebelVampire

as for Q1...hmmm....i think my fave scene is actually when tanya witnesses the terra nova crash cause i feel like the imagery really kind of expressed how itd feel to suddenly see some giant flaming thing burning up in the atmosphere. cause i felt there was this sense of wonder about it since its kind of juxtaposed to the natural nature

mathtans

Actually, thinking of books made me think of history, and it's real interesting how the comic has this "history repeating itself" vibe, in terms of "trying to help them" [the natives], and it backfiring drastically, because maybe learn about what's going on rather than subjugating. I don't feel like that's "in your face" either, it just kind of works.

That's cool. It was also kind of "her thing", only she saw it.

(Refering to your answer in that last sentence btw)

Related to the history was in how there's that division in the adults between telling their children everything, and having them just learn how to deal with the aftermath as being the important thing.

Lot of thought put into this. Uncomfortable questions.

RebelVampire

yeah. i really liked the thing with the natives. cause i dont think it was portraying it entirely bad since to a degree there werent bad intentions. cause i mean trying to give ppl schools and such isnt inherently awful. but on the otherhand the alpahs definitely seem to have this sense of superiority in regards how they view the natives. like the comic definitely seems to know its a complicated topic

i really wonder if what set the natives off was the technology failing tho. cause the alphas are so reluctant to tell the truth, maybe something else happened

mathtans

Yeah... definitey makes one wonder a bit about the event that messed up all the technology, really kind of putting them on level footing. Licorice's remark about "giving them things that became useless" rang true. Was it a cyclical thing? Is that why they never have advanced to that state, they never get the chance?

I remember Kobei saying something about a thing happening every three generations.

Of course, it could also be something from their ship in orbit that accidentally misfired. shrugs

RebelVampire

yeah and for the natives its hard to say. cause theyre pretty spread out. like kobei's tribe did not look that big at all. and if you have the majority of your labor force working on other practical things like hunting and gathering then you dont really have the labor force to advance tech along.

in retrospect im concerned that in general they were okay with semi colonizing an occupied planet

the alphas i mean

cause they even built that huge roadway

as if it was no big deal to disturb the native population

mathtans

Right, and there seem to be a bunch of them - and everyone seems to have spots, including the animals. (Which must be significant, it was pointed out at some point even, but darned if I can figure that out.) Yeah, you probably don't really have a need for roads either... you're right about the alphas there.

Maybe they didn't have a choice. It was 40 years on a ship, maybe it was this or nothing.

RebelVampire

i wonder what their initial goal was? were they studying the planet?

mathtans

Which is not a very good reason for doing what they did in the way they did it, but.... hm. I kind of doubt that? I mean, it's true everyone on the ship seemed to be a scientist, but why introduce technology to a group you're trying to study? Wouldn't that mess up results?

mathtans

Oh, quick shout out to the start of Book 2. That was a really clever way of reaffirming the characters, looking at them in terms of who a hero might be.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 3. One of the biggest mysteries in the story is what caused all the technology to suddenly cease functioning. Despite the numerous scientists around, there are only really theories. What do you think caused the technology to fail? Was it natural phenomenon, divine intervention, direct sabotage, or something else?

mathtans

My inclination there is to say it was natural, but induced by the fact that the humans showed up (like a catalyst)

RebelVampire

oh yeah i really liked that moment where she was determining the hero and the villain. it was too true to life about how everyone is the villain or hero of someone's story. and i feel it was a bit meta too for the comic cause even tho tanya is the protagonist, i would not label her the hero persay. which is something i like about this comic. the ppl just are. some are jerks, some are nice. but theyre just ppl first and foremost.

wait gonna tie two questions together. what if what they were doing was studying the planet's magnetic field or something like that? and whatever their experiments did messed stuff up and took out the planet's powergrid?

mathtans

I'm vaguely reminded of the DS9 episode where that one colonist person had put a piece of technology in the woods to prevent the use of all other technology, and Sisko and O'Brien got trapped in that society for a while. I don't think it's necessarily like that (one scientist somehow using tech to screw with all the tech), but I think tech could have caused some electromagnetic interference or... I'm not that smart with tech.

Yeah, something like that, that's good!

But, like, took it out because it spontaneously caused trees to grow over something important.

The foliage on this planet must be impressive, given how they said they had to keep clearing the roads, and how overgrown they've become in less than 20 years.

Also, looking back at your remark about Tanya the protagonist, you're right, she definitely has flaws - some she acknowledges, others she doesn't like being aware of her situation - but she does seem like a good vehicle for the story. (Even though we havent' really seen evidence of the pilot being a real jerk.) Though, at the same time, I guess we know Tanya survives, if this is sort of being described in retrospect? Or is it?

RebelVampire

its definitely written in past tense. its just hard to say from which point. like is it after everything is done and she's safe at home with blef and a coffee. or is she writing soon after things happened? like each night adds a bit to the story but its in past tense cause it already happened. so i still feel tense about tanya's fate cause its hard to gauge her position she's writing. maybe shes trapped on terra nova on a cliff and is dying and is like "welp here are my last thoughts"

mathtans

Oh, totally random aside - did Ep 16 (All That Useless Stuff) load for you on Tapas? It didn't for me, but I just went to the author's personal site.

RebelVampire

no it didnt load for me. i had to do the same to read the page.

mathtans

Yeah, that's a good point. She could be writing it at any point in the future. (I think Blef's gone though... actually, that was something that bothered me at the time, she just went and released him without talking to anybody. Like she knew best, even though I'm not sure she does.) Wow, that would be dark though.

Just a note for SnowShadow to check that page then. ^^

RebelVampire

the blef thing broke my heart. but its cause i also thought blef looks like a baby. hes probably gonna get eaten in like 20 seconds

mathtans

Would Blef still be accepted back into a community after having been with humans? Some animals wouldn't be (at least here on Earth).

You're so dark tonight! Or I'm just not as cynical as usual.

Related to narration, the caption boxes are usually placed well, I find. Any thoughts about the art or art style? I have some thoughts.

RebelVampire

my thoughts are that its well done but it also reminds me of like comics from the 60s and 70s. cause a lot of the not mainstream stuff had that style, particularly one shot romance comics. not that that its a bad thing that its like that. just very unique and atypical for whats popular in webcomics atm

mathtans

Okay (I don't know the historical context myself), but I do find it rather unique. Realistic, in some sense, in terms of portrayal of facial features and the like. Also, WOW, I know I'm very basic in terms of what I do, but I tend to avoid hands... sometimes I'll look at a panel and think, if I were doing that, I'd totally have avoided putting the hand on the heart or the face there, but this person went for it, and did it well. Kudos.

Sometimes I'll wonder about the choice of a pose, but I never really get the sense that there's "cheating" to hide things the artist doesn't want to draw.

Of course, as an amateur, what do I know.

There's also the detail in the forest and things that I'd have blurred out or outlined.

RebelVampire

yeah i agree theres definitely not the sense of trying to hide flaws. but to be honest with this sort of art style ive always found the flaws add more character. cause back to me thinking the comic reminds me of comics of the 60s and 70s, the thing i remember most about those comics is they were quirky and things just werent usually perfect. like most of the comics i read the people were really flawed, so the fact there were artistic mistakes kind of fit that message of nobody is perfect. so i get that same impressiong from tangled river. that the fact there are quirks in the art just suits the fact these are not perfect ppl.

you remind me that one thing i really appreciate about the comic is the background details

there are a lot of parts where im like "yeah most ppl wouldve given up on that amount of detail"

mathtans

Characters could appear more "quirky" at times, you mean, when there's flaws?

RebelVampire

yes. cause i definitely notice sometimes when the pose is a bit off for the anatomy XD but it comes off as more quirky than it does flaw

which is kind of the ideal place you wanna be imo

mathtans

Gotcha.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 4. Due to the stress of the situation and generational gap, kids like Tanya find themselves lacking in a lot of knowledge about their parents’ past. The parents seem reluctant to talk about Tanya’s father, their relationships with the natives of the planet, the years they spent on the ship, etc. Which item from the past would you be most interested in learning about? Do you have any theories about one of these past taboo subjects? Why do you think the Alphas are so reluctant to share?

mathtans

Tanya's father, yeah, that's a whole question itself almost. How does she compare to the others agewise again?

I remember there was that one scene where they was saying there were 23 of them, and she was wondering about a boyfriend. (Weird to me how that particular thread was kinda dropped... related, weird that the parents wouldn't let them be with the natives, when there's obviously a gender imbalance, unless they figure some of the kids are LGBT.)

I wonder if the whole "Protocol 9" or whatever it was called (I'm bad with names) came about due to something related to Tanya's dad.

RebelVampire

oh i never considered that. that the one protocol that got licorice all pissy had something to do with tanya's dad.

honestly dont know the age relations tho. im kind of vague on their ages in general

outside of "not adults"

mathtans

I just randomly thought of it now while wondering about him.

RebelVampire

albeit we know tanya is the oldest of all the betas

mathtans

Yeah. It's not that integral to the story. She is the oldest though? Okay, I thought so, but wasn't sure if I misremembered.

If so, she could be the reason some of the protocols went into place.

And why some of the Alphas are reluctant to talk. They don't want to stigmatize.

(Totally random theories!)

Of course, the Alphas might also not want to share because, if the kids knew, they wouldn't be able to respect the older generation any more. Which would probably be an issue, and not just for the Alphas, presuming the kids decided to reject even the sensible advice.

RebelVampire

part of me wonders if the alphas really are kind of holding out for a ship. so they dont want to become too ingrained to life on the planet subconsciously. although id assume they dont want them getting with the natives cause they arent sure whats going on genetically. cause sure tanya seems super fine and healthy. but maybe she can catch a sickness humans cant or something. and so they dont want to chance it because they cant run tests. or maybe they feel tanya's birth is somehow to blame for her mother's condition. theres just a lot of unknown factors so i could see why theyd be not apt for it

speaking of which it occurs to me that tanya doesnt have spots

mathtans

They're definitely holding out for something (otherwise why keep all the useless appliances rather than trade with the nomads), but I have my doubts about a ship, particularly after that speech about how Earth would have had to start constructing a new ship shortly after they left. (Incidentally, there's clever little exposition drops like that when I least expect them.)

Yeah. Noticed that. Maybe the issue of breeding with the natives is that the result of the union doesn't carry a lot of the native genes. They don't want the species to die out.

Particularly not after facilitating them dying out from giving them appliances that no longer work and a bunch of them possibly had forgotten how to hunt by then.

Actually, how long HAVE they been on this world? The Alphas were taking anti-aging pills or something. Could have been a hella long time, right? Maybe that's another reason for secrecy.

RebelVampire

yeah cause we know they were on the ship for 40 years. but not really how long theyve been on the planet itself. and i doubt a roadway like that was constucted overnight. so theyve probably been around a long time.

this makes me wonder how far they are from earth tho

wait....

mathtans

Maybe not overnight, but I suspect a lot faster than we'd be able to do it now.

Waiting.

(Actually, the road had all those towers and everything, electronically activated... had to be pre-fabricated or something, right?)

RebelVampire

so i always assumed the 40 years on the ship were while it was in orbit but some of those years or all of them might have been travel time. so im gonna say maybe theyve been on the planet for twenty-ish years cause they mentioned a ship would take another twenty to get to them?

yeah all the buildings would definitely be pre-fabricated to a degree

or maybe they just have super tech

i really wish i knew how their space travel worked. cause if they found FTL travel that changes the whole time scope about help coming.

mathtans

Gotcha. I guess I assumed the 40 years on the ship were all travel time! Followed by at least 30 years before the tech went poof, and another 15 or so after that. Weird how people assume things.

Honestly, the space travel and that isn't that interesting to me. I'm more interested in Tanya's personal connection, with her father and her apparent interest in drawing which I presume came from something when she was young.

To each our own, of course; I've already said that as a teacher, who shakes his head at some of the (very believable) teenagey actions, I may not be the target audience.

Now that they're in a new city, we'll probably get a better sense of what's become of the world in the time they've been away. That may help with timelines.

Actually, the skeletons - how long does it take for people to, uh, decompose, wow, things I didn't really want to ask, hum.

RebelVampire

i only care about the space travel in this case for wrapping my mind around the timeline. but to be fair the fact we dont know makes me feel a stronger connection to tanya and the betas. cause were kind of in their same position where we wanna know stuff but they dont wanna give up the goods and wanna be all secretive about it.

not that long

which is vague but i remember it was quick

cause i looked it up once

mathtans

That's a good point. Not being in the loop helps empathize with Tanya that way.

Oh, okay then.

Hmmm, any final thoughts? It's kind of nice that Earth has worked out some of its differences, what with there being different nationalities represented on this mission. And seems a universal translator was not an item that ever got invented.

The worldbuilding was well done in general.

RebelVampire

only a year and thats if the body is buried. in the open air it happens faster

thanks google

mathtans

Heh. I wonder if they ever had gravesites after landing.

RebelVampire

my final thoughts are that while i found the comic hard to get into, it was overall a really unique and good setup cause few sci-fi these days focus on nature stuff when it comes to space stuff

mathtans

I can agree to that.

RebelVampire

and maybe. youd have to get gravesites eventually O_O

Unfortunately, the scheduled Comic Tea Party is now complete~! Thank you everyone so much for joining this week’s chat~! That being said, if you would like to continue discussing the comic, we encourage you to do so~! We want to give a big thank you to snowshadow, as well, for volunteering Tangled River for our reading queue. If you liked the comic, please be sure to support snowshadow’s efforts. If you have questions, concerns, or suggestions about CTP, please feel free to PM me, or e-mail me at [email protected].

With that said, next week’s Comic Tea Party will focus on Alec in Wunderland by mintycanoodles. Please use this week to read as much of the comic as you would like. Hope to see you next Thursday (August 31st) from 5PM to 7PM PDT~! Until then~! Comic: https://tapas.io/series/Alec-in-Wunderland

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