#i wouldn't say there's NO utena/anthy in the manga

[notathrowawayname]

Vikings and Short-stacks

So a friend of mine began reading Vinland Saga. I'm an anime only and recently finished season 2, so they quite quickly got past where I'm up to and we talked about it, which led me to figure out why I'm not a big fan of Vinland Saga.

For clarity, I'm not saying I don't like it. I think it does a lot of things well. In particular, I really liked the dynamic between Askeladd and Thorfinn, and the time it takes to really flesh out Ketil for the "there's no such thing as a good/kind slave owner" moment. But all the things I liked just made me more confused why I didn't like it as much as I've seen other people like it. Like, another friend of mine thought it's one of the best stories ever and I just, don't feel like it's anywhere close.

Now I've been part of the weeb community long enough to know that calling any manga or anime someone likes anything less than a masterpiece is asking for a fight. So I'll preface this by saying everything that follows is my own personal opinion:

The conclusion I came to was that Vinland Saga seems to have no narratively distinct style.

The way you tell a story matters just as much as the story you're telling. If I use Last of Us 2 as an example (a game I really enjoyed), I felt like the only thing I would change is the order in which you play Abby and Ellie. If you played as Abby first, you'd only find out why Ellie was hunting her in the middle of the game, which I think would have been a great "oh shit" moment. (obviously it makes sense why they didn't do this. Abby is more aggressive and combat focused than Ellie's survival and stealth style, meaning gameplay gets more intense later in the game, and people probably wouldn't be happy that you couldn't play as either character from the first game until halfway through the game). What information you give the audience and when you give it is important for how they understand the plot, setting and characters, which in turn effects their investment and interest. To paraphrase Idiocracy, it's important to know who's arse it is, and why it's farting.

So writers do a bunch of things like various POVs, timeskips, flashbacks, and just general dialog to keep you engaged and informed. That way you can keep the pace of the story going, whilst still getting the audience to care about these characters and the situations they're in. Shounen does a lot of things that I can't really enjoy anymore (having seen them done to death), but it does this particularly well. Like how in Demon Slayer it weaves the backstory of the Demons into each fight so you don't have to pause any of the balls to the wall action, or how Dr Stone does flashbacks to Senku's dad or him making stuff to save time.

Vinland Saga doesn't do a lot of this at all. It shows a flashback about Thorfinn's dad's past and some setting stuff through Canute, but doesn't focus on those characters at all for anything other than adding to the current reason why Thorfinn's having a bad time. Most of the story follows Thorfinn's POV in pure chronological order, and it does so for a gruelling 48 episodes, approximately 16 hours of content (if you skip OPs and EDs, which you shouldn't, because Vinland Saga has some good ones, like Aimer's Torches).

Because of this chronological order, we basically have Thorfinn in angry revenge mode for 20 odd episodes, and hollow shell of a person for another 12 or so. And from a narrative perspective, both Empty Shell and Edgy McEdgeface are archetypes that can definitely work and can be explored interestingly (as examples, for empty shell there's characters like Anthy from Utena, Shin from 86, and arguably Shinji from NGE; for edgelords there's Guts from Beserk, Emiya Kiritsugu (not Shirou) from Fate/Zero, and Eren from AoT, etc). But the story doesn't explore Thorfinn as a character until like, the episode when he remembers Vinland exists? He's the protagonist and he barely has a personality for 12 hours. Stories like that live and die by the strength of the supporting cast (like Askeladd and Einar) and the intrigue about the world and plot. But the characters, while having some depth, don't have a lot? And they keep getting killed off (RIP Arnheid).

There's an old adage that you should start a story in the middle, because most of the setup and build up is pretty boring for the audience. After 48 episodes, I finally feel like we're at the beginning of Thorfinn's actual story, and tbh, there's not enough to keep me engaged.

TL;DR: Thorfinn's story is told in such an exhaustingly chronological way that I can't stay engaged

Or maybe I just don't like slowburn idk

[gamesception]

Lets read RGU manga, chapter 5

With chapter 4 ending with Utena finding out about Ohtori academy and deciding to transfer there in search of her prince, chapters 1-4 together could end up serving as a sort of stand alone prologue that could more or less lead into the anime story as is. But I wouldn't be surprised if elements of that prologue come back in the manga plot and drive it away from where the anime was headed. Only one way to find out though, and with what looks like Manga Anthy on the title page, we should finally be starting the story proper in chapter 5.

Yup, here we are at Ohtori, as expected.

and we're even borrowing the basketball bit from the first episode of the Anime. We already did the 'why are you wearing a boy's uniform / the rules don't say I can't' bit at her previous school, though, so we'll probably be skipping that.

Yeah, it's referenced but not repeated.

Considering Utena's new to this school, she got popular pretty quick.

Then again, I mean, it's not really a mystery why.

Following the first episode pretty closely so far. Though the greenhouse is in the forest area now instead of being in the middle of school where all the windows look down on it.

Also, here comes Wakaba! I was maybe a bit unfriendly towards Kaidou in part because I was afraid he was going to replace Wakaba in the manga altogether. I'm glad to see that's not the case.

Wakaba seems a fair bit more hostile towards Anthy than she was in the anime at this point.

The council scene explaining the basics of dueling for the rose bride progresses more or less as in the show as well.

And yeah, Sionji posting up wakaba's confession letter for public shaming, prompting Utena to challenge Sionji... presumably in the next chapter.

Not to much new stuff to react to this time, now that the prologue is over, we are, at least for the moment, firmly back onto the anime's rails. We'll see how long that lasts.

[katkit-42]

I saw the words "James somerton's take on revolutionary girl utena" and immediately started crying.

But after looking over this, it really does give me the felling that he doesn't give a single shit about media analysis, let alone gay media analysis.

I don't think he plagiarized his talking points, if only because anyone who has written a GOOD analysis about Utena in the last almost 40 years understands the show. The people who wrote shit worth stealing would be talking about what the show is actually saying.

Like, sure, there are people who think what James thinks. But they don't really do media analysis and write articles about it, because the people who think like James--aka have no media literacy and hate women, especially Asian women (which is an essay in my drafts)--don't care enough about Japanese lesbian TV shows to dedicate time to writing about it. Unless they, like James, had financial incentive to.

But even if they do, they don't write the good articles. They don't write the shit worth stealing. Because they don't care.

The reason James's videos were popular were because the writers cared about what they wrote. And you could tell they did. Hell, even James cares about the misogyny and racism he peppers into other people's writing. Otherwise he wouldn't have written it.

But you can tell when someone doesn't care about what they write. That's why James had to steal. He never cares about what he talked about. But he's built his $100k career on "caring about queer people's opinions", so he stole from people who did so he could act his gay little heart out and rake in all that money.

That's why I think James doesn't care about media analysis. Even beyond his lack of research and blatant theft, look at what he's written about RGU. He didn't pay attention to it. He didn't listen to it. Utena and Anthy literally spell out their motivations after Anthy's suicide attempt; the whole show talks about how Anthy hates being the rose bride and, despite being in this position, shows her with her little acts of rebellion--of agency. But this is a show about Asian queer women (a class of people he very much hates as well as disrespects (I have an essay on *that* in my drafts, don't you worry)) AND shows that men aren't given a free pass to hate women because they like to fuck other men (I noticed he didn't seem to mention the Akio/Touga/Saionji situation..... Maybe because none of the sex is real so who cares that this older man is grooming his students to abuse people).

Actually, speaking of the ATS situation, that's another reason I don't think he plagarized. He could have found an article discussing how Akio's relationship with Touga and Saionji (and the whole Miki piano teacher thing) perpetuates the harmful stereotype that gay men are predators that hunt down straight boys to turn them gay. Because that is a valid point! I don't think that's what BePapas was trying to say, but it can easily be read that way!

Another reason why I think he didn't pay attention: he has argued before that wlw, even gender non-conforming/nb women (though he won't use proper pronouns), "have it easier", especially in cartoons. And you can make that argument with Utena: it's not considered weird for girls to fawn over Utena and Juri (though the unspoken bit is that any lesbian inklings will be harshly punished); Wakaba's whole thing with Utena, even pre-Anthy (and it's amped up in the manga, with Wakaba calling herself the mistress to Anthy's title of wife); and finally, Utena and Anthy end up together, while Touga and Saionji are trapped in the abusive school that groomed them and Mamiya and Mikage are dead. Hell, the duo of Utena and Anthy end up "winning" against the duo of Touga and Saionji multiple times.

Even his own shitty arguments could be supported with a basic reading of the show. It's a shitty analysis that misses what BePapas was trying to say, but it could be made.

But he doesn't respect the premise enough to pay attention and he doesn't respect media analysis enough to try.

I Watched the James Somerton Video on Utena So You Don't Have Too

I'm well aware I really didn't have to do this and that engaging critically with Somerton is a bit of a useless endeavor after both the revelations about his plagiarism, misogyny, and "making shit up". No one should have to do it, but unfortunately because this is a show I love I sort of want to.

I wanted to go through the video myself and give my own two cents about a show that's near and dear to my heart, and hopefully direct your attention to some better Utena analysis afterwards.

At the bottom of the document, there is a list of various Utena analyses, both written and video essays, that I hope you will check out.

[jewlwpet]

Do you mind telling me what happens in the last/third chapter of After the Revolution? I don't like Utena manga (mainly because Juri is straight and all the Utena x Anthy stuff is gone and the anime's story and characters are just so much better) but I am interested to know if Saito has improved at all and how she ends the story. Btw, is the Utena movie manga any good? Is there any yuri in it?

Utena movie manga is great imo, beautiful. but while Anthy is definitely in love with Utena, the nature of Utena’s feelings for Anthy are Sorta unclear in it... but it ends with them together and happy. There’s one particular scene in the movie manga that I consider to be as good as the anime’s cantarella scene. Incidentally, someone found an old draft of the movie script and the movie manga has a lot in common with that draft... but it’s better (than the draft) imo.

As to whether “Saito has improved at all”: Yes. Juri is a lesbian in After the Revolution, and Utena and Anthy do end up together... what I was disappointed with in the third chapter was what she did with Miki and Kozue. You can probably guess...

I believe that their obsession with each other is toxic and smothering, for both of them, and that what they need is to give each other space to live their own lives.

In this chapter... the problem was presented as being... that Miki was holding them both back in their relationship because he was ~overly fixated~ on the definition of their relationship as “siblings,” and what is and isn’t appropriate for siblings. It ended with Miki describing their relationship as “still evolving” which In Itself is fine but in context... :/

In other words... it ended up coming across as pro-incest and didn’t feel true to the characters and their needs at all.

[firehananas]

Three ships:

Jessie x James (Pokémon) The queer is so strong in this ship, they are so cute together (especially in the late seasons), I want them to be happy. I hope the ending of the anipoke will give them justice :c

Utena x Anthy (Revolutionary girl utena) Complex but so beautiful. I love Utena and Anthy for very different reasons, and I'm sure that one day, together, they will shine.

Yoshida x Kuon (TS) It wouldn't be fair if I didn't put a crack ship, so here they go. I love them. I want them to interact, but they for now never did and probably will never ever. But. You see, in a crack ship, what's interesting is... the possibilities. What if. And the canon can't be too much a bother because... You decide of the settings. You just have to make it enough IC, and here go your silly ship.

First Ever ship:

I can't say for sure but either Zia x Esteban (Les mystérieuses cité d'or/The mysterious gold cities) or Paul/Dawn (Pokémon)

Now, if you're asking me on the first ship I really write/investigate in a fandom... definitely Russia x Seychelles (Hetalia). Again, crack ship if you only look at the manga/anime but... the possibilities...

Last song: The Natural Compatriot's Palace Perspective Book

What can I say except... I love the Utena's OST...

Last movie: Pinocchio of Guillermo del Toro

So far, the best Pinocchio we got this year. Disney's one is lazy as best, stupid at worst. Fruity Pinocchio had fun memes but nothing memorable in itself.

This one. This is stunning, moving, endearing. I loved his interpretation and the choice of the context it in WWII. The blue fairy is so COOL. The "island of pleasure" is so well thought. It succeeds everywhere where the Dinsey's one fails.

Watch it (it's on Netflix)

Currently Reading: The Beacon at Alexandria by Gillian Bradshaw

I'm reading it with my mom. I'm only at the beginning, but the text is well done for something made at the first person. Watch out tho if you're sensitive to sexual assault and/or sexism (justified because of the time period + the cultural aspect, but still). I was a little suspicious because the author is male, but honestly the main character is compelling and doesn't suffer from a "rebel princess" syndrome (it's more well written and subtile). And it was written before 2000, so I gave you a thumb up Gillian!

Currently watching: React Mystères #3 of Seb Grenier

Otherwise, I'm thinking about watching "Wednesday"

Currently consuming: WATER

Currently craving: Finishing my chores

I tag: @thegungnir, @yahtos, @lestefanmar, @icewolfie, @italian-cosmonaut

Tag 9 People You Want To Get To Know Better

Thank you @just-another-tokyo-ghoul-fan for the tag! ^-^ Three Ships:

Juoka (Juo x Rika) from Tenkuu Shinpan 🥰 Prime example of my taste really: contains obsession and no fucks given at all, attempted murders, barely hidden (violent) flirting, long haired muscular tattooed pierced sadistic man x my fav character I tend to project a tad too much on… xD

EDENMantis (ADAM x Langa x Kiriko) from Sk8 the Infinity 👍 for real this one just happened like I don’t even remember how but it did and immediately after it all went downhill. Langa and Kiriko have never even met and ADAM and Kiriko hate each other in canon but nevermind that, this ship is godly. (I am working on that 6th chapter I promise)

I’m gonna go ahead and say Teloisezinho (Tag x Eloise x Zanguezinho) from Foot 2 Rue because I have them on brain a lot these days for some reason (totally nothing to do with the fifa world cup). An exception to my usual rule of “if it’s not exceptionally messed up in canon I don’t want it”. Cutie pies who run from the cops together uwu

First Ever Ship:

Percabeth (Percy x Annabeth) from the Riordanverse is the first one I actually told myself I was a shipper of, even tho I did like other couples in fiction before.

Last Song:

Guardian, by Æther Realm 😭💕💕💕 this song is soooo so sos o beautiful (and surprise surprise it’s in my Donut Family playlist)

Last Movie:

La Ch’tite Famille. I don’t even know why I watched it. I knew what to expect and I got it and. welp.

Currently Reading:

I have a bunch of books started and not making progress in any of them 🙈 among some other ones, there’s Racine’s Bérénice and Brandon Sanderson’s Words of Radiance

Currently Watching:

My computer screen?

Currently Consuming:

Nothing yet, but thinking about what to eat for dinner

Currently Craving:

TUC.. literally the best thing ever invented by a human right along with instant noodles

I tag:

@space-diablo @origami10 @xchoco-mixturex @lokixfaith @downton-not-downtown-smh @lavander-aavaros @firehananas @matadorofheart @dhiatzs