#i think this is why most of my ships are het tbh

[barb-l]

Isn't a writer question but was curious; How does wenclair different from other ships you've enjoyed?

Is it solely due to having been a lifelong Wednesday Addams fan, or is it specifically the Netflix's Addams world that you find intriguing?

I ask mainly because I recall you once saying that your wenclair comics--specifically the Next Gen Au I believe--are written and made with a lot of intention in regards to dialog and the discussions had between characters.

Is this due to a greater insight into the characters or simply a mark of growth in writing comprehension?

I like to think I put as much thought in all ships I've been hyperfixated on tbh. Wenclair isn't even the one I've been obsessed with the longest. So far it's actually Trimberly, for which and I was hyperfixated with for like 3 years.

But yeah ok I get ur point lol The intensity this time feels different, I suppose.

I think it's a mix of both being a long time Wednesday Addams fan and how cute of a ship Wenclair is both in concept and the canon execution of their dynamics.

As some of you are aware, I've been a fan of The Addams for a while now. All incarnations of them are great in their own way, but one of the many reasons why the animated 2019 movie is my favorite is because it didn't give Wednesday a bland ass male love interest. I don't think the B/W series did it(because Wed was like six in that) but the 90's movies, musical, and netflix series for some reason found it necessary to give Wednesday male love interests so painfully boring and i hate it. This isn't even about making Wednesday attracted to boys. I personally headcanon her bi, as the ol' stereotype that all grumpy/angsty female characters must be lesbian isn't my cup of tea, and also because I like to think all Addamses just don't give a shit about gender when it comes to romance. I woulda been fine with her getting a boyfriend so long as they're not boring af and goddddd canon incarnations still haven't delivered. Joel was sweet but he was too much of a wimp, not even Gomez is that pathetic. Lucas' thing with Wednesday was just portrayed in such an icky way in the musical that I couldn't finish watching by the time their sexually charged duet came on, and don't even get me started on the boys Netflix gave her. I expected better of Gough and Millar...(unless the blandness was on purpose like it was with Lana Lang--)

Anyways, because of all said canon love interests, I've been desperate for Wednesday to have a love interest that is both not painfully het or boring for once. Crossover shipping with Lydia Deetz from Beetlejuice the Musical was fun but was ultimately a very niche fandom. I could only draw and write for an audience of twenty or so people for so long. Parker from the animated movie would've been great, but the cop out with her mom dating Fester just made it too weird for me to be fully on board with the ship.

So when Enid Sinclair was introduced as a character I was absolutely ecstatic. On paper alone she already seemed great. She has a very distinct appearance (even if her "design" was inspired by Harlequin and it shows) that goes so well when she stands next to Wednesday, whether it's in the actual show, fan arts, or even in official merch. Her being Wednesday's complete opposite in so many ways makes her being paired with Wednesday so dang interesting too.

And I don't just mean aesthetic or personality wise. I'm talking about how one of Wednesday's struggle stems from having too much smothering love from her family as someone who gets overwhelmed too easily, and Enid's loneliness and insecurity coming from her own family's lack of love and attention where it matters most. Or how Wednesday's just girl who, deep inside worries about being an actual cruel monster like the very bigots she hates, while Enid is a supposed beast who resents herself for only being a scared little girl. Even the fact that Wednesday is an older sister to a soft-hearted younger brother while Enid is the youngest daughter to a bunch of rough-housing older brothers feels very on purpose.

Everything about Enid feels deliberate. Like she IS supposed to be paired with Wednesday, platonically or romantically. She's the best person to stand beside Wednesday as a character because they have enough differences and similarities to have interesting conflicts but also significant character growths sparked by each other. She's not bland or boring like the canon love interests because even without her attachment to Wednesday, Enid is still such a compelling character. The mere fact that she's as popular as she is despite an eight-episode series being her debut in a franchise that's been iconic to generations is already pretty amazing, and only a character as impressive deserves to smooch somebody as iconic as Wednesday Addams.

And their on screen chemistry is just *chef's kiss*

[purplina]

Why am I slowly slipping back to my Tsukiyama phase ? I never finished Haikyuu season 1 bc I was crying of stress everytime the crows had a match and I was exhausting myself, so it's not like I know the source material that much

It's just... I think they are so perfect for each other somehow

Also Kkumri on insta is keeping me ENTERTAINED w/ her little Haikyuu comics 🌸 (before them, there was Gusari and their IwaOi dj, true masterpieces, I don't take criticism)

Tbh most of the knowledge I have on Haikyuu comes from the fandom and you guys love to lie (you made new fans cry bc you told them daichi died fr) (and how come oikawa's knee injury is not real ?)

Anyways, I'm not a fan of the Friends to Lovers trope, but I think it's bc I read this trope only with het characters in YA novels when I was younger and it was probably executed poorly. However, Haikyuu gave us so many friends to lovers ships and you know what ? It works.

I would write an essay on how Tsukishima and Yamaguchi's dynamic compliment each other but my head is empty and I don't know how to think (it happens a lot, I should learn how to talk about romantic dynamics bc my poor aroace ass is struggling)

Bye ✌️😗

[mazzystar24]

how would having buck/eddie be more powerful?? yeah i get that having a queer latino man would be awesome (and i support whatever direction they want to go in w eddie’s sexuality bc i think there’s a lot of options there) but it’s kind of embarrassing that people are making buck’s entire coming out about a ship. a bisexual man coming out in later life has his queer realisation with someone who also came out in later life, they’re both in a line of work that’s pretty “boys club”-esque (as shown by hen and chimney begins episodes, and it’s a shame that hen’s queer identity isn’t recognised enough in the fandom). Buck’s storyline is just as meaningful with or without an endgame of buddie. Tbh I hope they make eddie queer as well but don’t put buddie together because the only way they get together without violating workplace relationship rules is if one of them leaves, which is arguably less meaningful because we lose a main character. Sorry if this comes off as rude but y’all have had your shipping brains on for too long because you can’t recognise how much this means to bisexual fans and it’s honestly exhausting.

Okay gonna address that bottom part first just to clarify real quick that I am in fact a bisexual fan 🫡 so that assumption was 😐

As for the rest:

If you look on my page or my previous asks or anything you’d see that I’m over the moon ecstatic over finally getting bi buck

At no point did I make buck being bi just about his ships, in almost every ask about bucktommy or buddie me and most of the anons are constantly reiterating how much we value canon bi buck even if it wasn’t EXACTLY how we wanted it

At no point in any of my previous posts nor in the ask response that I’m assuming you sent this ask about did I imply that bucks coming out arc is of more value when connected to buddie

The post/ask was about bucktommy as endgame or buddie as endgame and my opinion on it and my opinion is that it would be more powerful and meaningful to have buddie

To answer your question on why- buddie yes have a lot of in common with bucktommy but the thing that makes it for me is that

1. Queer slowburns done right are practically unheard of in the media

2. As you’ve touched on yeah Eddie is a Latino man but also we got to see Eddie grow as a person get into therapy, deal with his issues with his father and being a man of the house, be a widow and raise a son

Can you name a single character who we see on screen go from this all American soldier perfect boy to seeing him breakdown, get therapy understand comp het, fall in love with his best friend and navigate how he balances coming out in his 30s while having very mixed and complicated feelings about his dead wife who I genuinely believe he loved in some way but also having to come out to his son who is bound to have his own complicated feelings about it?

3. We’ve had so much history and so many powerful scenes between these two that to me and many of the fandom nothing can measure up to, like if they do become canon like it would mean a lot because their story and scenes over the years have been so amazing and powerful

4. Theyd be listening to what the fans want/have wanted for years!! That’s huge because so many shows never make characters queer because the fans saw them as it or shipped them and when on those rare occasions they do they take the easy way out and make one half of them queer to get fans to shut up (cough cough a certain cw show)

Also I never trashed on bucktommy because I don’t ick someones yum all I said is i agree and I don’t get those who want them to be endgame and I do make jokes about my own shipping goggles but seriously I am self aware and I do keep being VERY conscious that some may misunderstand me as not valuing bi buck just because we didn’t get buddie when that couldn’t be further from the truth

[moistcl1tikal-ao3]

rouge, pumpkin, mint, blueberry, mossy moss, pear (purely curious)

mint - "this is a threat we're gonna go bake cookies :)"

lmao not to spoil but i also work in a bakery. im basically charlie irl all i do is work for my moms bakery and play video games lol . genuinely a coincidence too bc like . what r the odds.

pear, sky blue - "why. why are you like this." "id love to know what's goes on in your fucked up little brain"

idk lol

genuine answer also idk i just got involved with deranged fandoms way too young and that's why im so good at writing porn. ive been doing it for ten years or something. i had my yaoiz phase and now i almost exclusively write het pairings or f/f because boys icky. they're like toys and objects to me. i can only have sex with them if i don't care about them, y'know? chuckletrio are like dolls to me in that im cutting the hair off and letting my dog chew on their legs. they're just characters and concepts to me. that's why i don't watch any new cs lmaoooo i hate it so bad speakpipe is second hand embarrassing and i refuse. charlie era is all i care about.

as for the actual content??? idk im kind of a veteran of mcyt rpf tbh. number one skylox soldier right here motherfucker. not to mention all the other utterly normalized ships of the day like phan/pewdiecry/troyler/et cetera. i also again was writing/roleplaying insane shit at a young age, so naturally it was all just. the most unrealistic yaoiz ever but it was also so fucked up because i was a weird sheltered kid with too much add and internet access to not go gooning it to overly plotty rape fics of cartoon horses. (that's real, i occasionally reread the series too. it's genuinely well written and yes all the rape scenes are mandatory for the plot. not because they really move the story forward i just like them.)

so im like basically the joker i guess

rouge, pumpkin, blueberry - "i think i love you? no not think. i love you." "sorta fangirl every time you post" "literally i hate you SO MUCH kiss me rn"

awww, you're cute. aren't you, honey. you're a parasocial little freak, aren't you. do you get off when i post? do you hide away, checking your phone, hand over your mouth as you scroll through and read everything I write? i bet you bookmark my fics for all those late nights alone. i bet you're blushing your round little cheeks off and kicking your feet right now because you know im talking to you, just you. you know what id do to you if you ever met me, right?

mama loves you <3

[marley-manson]

due South for the fandom ask meme, if you haven't been asked already <3

Thank you 💖

my favorite female character

I honestly can't decide between Victoria and Frannie. I loooove Victoria, I think she's a fantastic villain, very sympathetic imo, and extremely effective at highlighting Fraser's tragic flaws. And I love that she got away in the end.

I also adore Frannie and while she's less of a perfectly written character, she's in more episodes and she's so endearing and loveable. If we had to have a Fraser het ship teased in season 2 I wish it had been Fraser/Frannie rather than Fraser/Thatcher, both because I like Frannie more and would've loved to see more of her before season 3, and because I think it would've been more interesting thematically. In the episode Heaven and Earth she functionally represents Earth and Fraser's capacity to be more human and less "divine" or untouchable, and I love that.

my favorite male character

Ray Vecchio! I love him, I love the way he talks and complains and feels like everything is unfair to him and always steps up and puts his own comfort second anyway; I love his relationship with his family, from the good heartwarming stuff, to the bitchy sibling stuff, to the darker abusive father who still literally haunts him stuff; I love his fashion sense; I love his sheer loyalty to Fraser; I love that in the Pilot he sought Fraser out specifically to apologize for accidentally being insensitive about his father and invite him to dinner; I love his ridiculous love for his car and that he sacrificed it twice for Fraser... nothing I don't love tbh.

my favorite book/season/etc

Season 1, hands down. Extremely solid television right there.

my favorite episode (if its a tv show)

SO hard to choose between The Deal and Victoria's Secret, but I think Ray's episode gets the edge so let's go with The Deal.

my favorite cast member

I don't really know anything about the cast so idk.

my favorite ship

Fraser/RayV. Ship of my heart. I can read basically any ship featuring Ray, including het even, but Ray loves Fraser best therefore Ray/Fraser is the best ship.

a character I’d die defending

Ray. Thankfully the Ray Wars are over so I don't have to, but I'm ngl I can understand why the fandom was so batshit back then. I see someone casually say they can't ship F/V because they see him as too straight and Kill Bill sirens go off in my head and I have to take a deep breath lol. I would not have survived the 90s.

Also Victoria though. Fraser dug his own grave when he didn't let her go the first time, acab, obviously spending 10 years in prison would make her both a better criminal and angry that's what you fucking get for loving the system so much Fraser, and I'm on her side during the whole finale lol.

a character I just can’t sympathize with

One of Due South's biggest strengths is making just about every character sympathetic in some way. Ray's dad was a good answer to this though, got no sympathy there.

Ooh, also: Bob Fraser. The show did want me to sympathize with him at times lol, but I don't. He sucks, he's emblematic of every flaw Fraser has, he's a terrible father and a pretty shitty person, and the fact that the show wanted me to like him and often brushes all that aside makes me dislike him more than I otherwise might. He's still often entertaining and funny, but I do not have any sympathy for him. Hope Caroline divorces him in the afterlife.

a character I grew to love

Idk, most of my character opinions have been static since I first watched the show in high school...

Okay, Ian lol. The most annoying man in the world, but still somehow loveable. It did take me at least one rewatch to start to like him.

my anti otp

Sorry to the fandom lol but it is Fraser/Ray K. I got into the show specifically for them, because I wanted to read all the good fic everyone recced everywhere, and I did everything I could to try to like them including watching season 3 concurrently with season 2 so missing Ray V wouldn't colour my opinions, but it just didn't happen. They are not for me, they don't have the kind of chemistry I enjoy, I don't like the show after season 2 much in general, and my irrational love for Ray V makes me mad on his behalf to see Fraser getting together with his replacement lol.

I'm not usually that emotion driven when it comes to my fandom interests but due south is always kind of an exception there. I am at least self aware enough to find my irrational resentment funny rather than taking it seriously though. Like, I have 0 beef with F/K shippers, I respect your interests and I can definitely see why it was a fandom juggernaut back in its day. I'll just never read it.

ask meme

[pinkcrocss]

What do you like about Marie and Jordan individually and what do you like about them as a pair?

Thank you for the ask! ❤️

For Marie, I just love her so much. First of all, I am always happy to see a black girl lead in any kind of diverse, non-stereotypical, non-sassy-side character role like this.

But I also appreciated how realistic she was. Like, I understood almost every choice she made. I saw people get mad at her at the start for not always doing the altruistic, "right thing", but for most people, self-preservation comes first. She didn't owe those other characters anything (especially after how they treated her) and I loved that she had a back bone and would actually talk back to people. But at her core, she is still a good person despite everything that has happened to her and still chooses not to be corrupted by Vought's influence once she understands the true material cost.

For Jordan, they're just such a nuanced character. One, I always have a soft-spot for the Lancer character archetype. The highly capable, second best, who can never quite out-do the main character (e.i. bakugo, reki (from sk8), Ron from HP (fuck jkr, but no other examples are coming to me atm)), and Jordan is just that. Like, yeah, they were kind of a bitch at the start, but it's so clear that they are secretly a softie and the world and their experiences have forced them to have a tough shell. Also, their powers as an allegory for gender identity, yes, it's on the nose (although, as someone who grew up reading 90s/2000s manga like Ranma 1/2, not that unheard of), but I think the show handled questions of their identity really well.

And finally for Limoreau...

idk where to start. tbh, as someone who has been hyper fixating on characters and ships since high school, I never really have a clear explanation of why I ship the characters I do. I either like it or I don't. But Limoreau is such a pleasant surprise because the chemistry was there from the start, but it felt like one of those queer dynamics that the writers would be too scared to pursue (think Arthur/merlin or Gojo/Geto). I think the fact that our MAIN PAIRING is a queer, interracial couple with no white people, shouldn't be as revolutionary as it is in 2023, but it is! I hope this is a positive direction for on-screen storytelling.

But also everyone loves a classic "enemies to lovers" (yes, I know they're not EtL in the true sense, but I consider Rivals-to-lovers as a subset of EtL, so I'm using it as an umbrella term). I think the reason people like EtL dynamics (Especially in het pairings) is that there is always an underlying respect beneath the "hatred". Like, to see someone as a threat, you have to see them as at least an equal.

It was clear from the start that Marie and Jordan were more alike than different and it was Vought and the corrupt nature of Godolkin pushing them to compete. They're both lonely in different ways, and I love the idea of them finding acceptance and a home with each other (Also all three actors are extremely attractive and have great chemistry, so that never hurts).

Do I wish their relationship had been paced out a bit more? Yes. But that was my issue with all of Gen V. I think the whole show would have benefitted from 12 eps, instead of 8, because development was needed in most areas.

I also just want to note, for all the people saying their relationship "came out of nowhere", I truly feel that if Marie looked like Erin Moriarty and Jordan looked like Chace Crawford, most people would have clocked the romance from the beginning, jus saying...

[olderthannetfic]

Okay first as a disclaimer... Yeah I guess my first disclaimer was unnecessary I'm just paranoid and stuff

But on to the follow up I might not have explained myself properly or given enough context or my question was incoherent? But for context while I do like plenty of canon ships, my favorite ships tend to be MxM ships of characters who don't have canon female love interests. My fandoms tend to be fujobait/card game anime plus video games. (Honestly I kind of feel like the guy you called 'some fuck' in your answer tbh lol (Hopefully I'm not as obnoxious and arrogant as them though)).

Anyway the stuff I was mostly thinking about was stuff like the Ike/Soren defenses and the Ash Ketchum shipping wars. (Although I only read that instead of participating) But from your answer and thinking over it I realized that I had actually seen a good amount of Hassel/Brassius hint finding etc but I didn't realize it was the kind of stuff I was thinking of (probably because they weren't being defensive or worried about homophobic attacks). So yeah the kind of stuff I was asking about does exist but I just didn't realize it.

Anyway on the anti stuff... I feared that people interested in this stuff disappeared because they became antis but fortunately it seems that's not true.

Anyway thank you for the answer and apologies for any inconveniences and vagueness in my asks.

--

Ahaha. Really, anon? Your whole preamble was pure canon het shipper from big US TV circa 2005 in its tone.

Now I'm even more confused about why on earth you think you and I have beef.

--

I think the basic answer to some of your questions may be that:

Yes, people who like all kinds of things exist.

But if you're looking for shippers of something very specific, 99% of media and ships never generate A Fandom™ in the Destiel/Sterek/Drarry/etc. sense. Canon, not canon, slash, het: doesn't matter, most are small.

Have a look at that other recent post about what percentage of AO3 fandoms are what size.

--

Guys from "fujobait" who don't have canon female love interests seem like... not actually canon ships?

This just seems like the same speculation and looking for confirmation that all the other m/m shippers are doing unless they're into MDZS or Jordan L. Hawk novels something.

I'm not clear on what sets what you're talking about apart from... just the average shipper on tumblr.

I don't know much about the social dynamics of Pokemon or Fire Emblem fandoms except for a vague sense that FE has the usual modern fandom full of young idiots harassing each other problems.

People do move on from particularly unpleasant fandoms... but... mostly, people just move on from everything and usually quite quickly.

The only fandoms people stay and stay and stay for are those that are generating a huge volume of new material, usually fan-made, often in the form of novel-length fic. And even then, it takes a specific fannish personality type to stick to one particular ship or fandom for ages. There are people still shipping those two dudes from The Professionals and nobody else, but they're a rare breed.

--

I still don't understand what you were asking in the first place.

Someone who knows these fandoms, explain????

[mixelation]

I would love to see you rank Akatsuki by how shippable they are with Kakashi

oh my god. called out. but i will answer. CRACKS KNUCKLES

tbh this was kind of hard to write because even though i love akatsuki ships AND i love kakashi ships, there's not a lot of.... like..... easy/natural chemistry going on here??

least to most shippable

9. Zetsu - Does anyone ship Zetsu? No. Get out of here, Zetsu.

8. Pein - I think the connection here would be like. Similar Traumas (tm) and I know some people like this but I don't LMAO. That or missing-nin!Kakashi joins Akatsuki because he likes what Pein is selling philosophically, and it turns into one of those "loyal follower sets themselves apart in order for leader to notice them Romantically" which is another dynamic I know some like but I don't.

7. Kisame - Kisame is Chill For An Evil Villain and I think he'd admire Kakashi's philosophy of ninja who abandon their comrades being less than trash. He'd be annoyed but not lose his mind over some of Kakashi's more annoying traits. But, idk, this ship doesn't really have enough Spice for me.

6. Itachi - I like the fanon that Itachi and Kakashi were friendly in ANBU, and for a long time I liked the idea of them running into each other years later and reconnecting in a more shippy way. But I have rotated and rotated this and I cannot make it work in a shippy way. I've read some fics and they else seem to just not have.... a spark? a Spice? There's something missing. I just like them more with a platonic dynamic.

5. Sasori - There are some interesting parallels and contrasts and vague plot connections between these two, but oh my GOD is it hard to fit them all together in a compelling way. There's probably something in "Your father killed my parents and it fucked me up for life" vs "Yeah well, then he also killed my father and fucked me up for life" but you will have to work so hard to extract it. Sasori and Kakashi are antisocial weirdos in opposing ways and GETTING them to the point where you can do anything is so hard.

4. Kakuzu - Despite fighting each other, canon failed to produce any emotional connection at all between Kakuzu and Kakashi, which is unfair to us all. Kakuzu is ranked here because he's the first person on this list I can see getting into bed with Kakashi without the writer having to do a shit ton of work. Kakuzu fucks. Kakashi fucks. I think under the right circumstances they'd fuck each other. If I wrote it, I'd have a Catfishing AU where they're both trying to lure the other one out to collect Dat Bounty but they're doing it via the lonely hearts section of a newspaper. Anyway their public personas don't impress each other but once they switch to private letters they both realize they're both weird kinky freaks. Kakuzu WAS trying to catfish you in that he lying about his age and name and sent a fake photo, but somehow he was not lying about the tentacles.

3. Hidan - I think Kakashi and Hidan would make eye contact across a bar and then go hook up. I just think they're both like this. Maybe they run into each other again later and are like, "fuck it, why not?" It's a very straight forward relationship and both somehow miss all the ways the other one is completely unhinged. ALTERNATIVELY, Hidan thinking Kakashi's suffering and wallowing is so, so beautiful.

2. Deidara - Okay. Do you remember his "sees Itachi for the first time" face? I think Deidara would make this face at a raikiri. And as we all know, Deidara is at his cutest when screaming because someone is actively trolling him, and Kakashi loves trolling people. I don't think Deidara would be very impressed with Kakashi's dedication to a never ending mourning period, BUT I think there's room for interesting character growth on both sides here. Also I just think Kakashi should fuck him. As a little treat

I. Konan - Okay. Listen. My ideal Kakashi het ship is "weird damp man and woman who would crumple him up and wring him out like a paper towel." This is them. Kakashi literally only knows how to take care of his loved ones by going out and killing their enemies and Konan thinks this is so sweet. She doesn't NEED him to, but he does go out and kill people she hates and he's not even weird about it. Kakashi murdered more specific enemies of the Ame or Akatsuki than the Akatsuki. Very cute. Also they'd look good together. ALSO the pairing of her blank, judgmental stare and his trolly grin. Excellent vibes all around

BONUS RANKINGS:

Orochimaru (between Deidara and Konan) - They would hook up specifically for the psychic damage to everyone they know.

Obito (True Number One) - OBVIOUSLY. Rivals to friends to enemies to lovers! The mutual obsession! Bonus identity porn!

[most-canon-non-canon-ship-poll]

I, the poll runner, made this poll because they suck that much

Why Mileven is shit - a submission-based essay, part 3/3

Mileven - a currently canon het ship from the Stranger Things fandom between Michael (Mike) Wheeler and Jane (Eleven) Ives/Hopper/Byers/IDK

This doesn't mean she will never have another relationship, it doesn't even mean she is "alone" while other people are in relationships (although personally I think there is nothing wrong with not being in a relationship tbh... some people need to unpack this). It just means that she reclaims the power to decide if and when she will give love to someone again, a choice she's never really had. As for Mike, I believe his low self-esteem and what makes him feel so different is his feelings for Will which have steadily stepped out of platonic more and more as time has gone on, and THAT is the truth that is hard to admit, not his apparent love for El that she has been begging for him to say. Mike and Will are written so perfectly as a romantic duo that it is wild to me that anyone would ship Mike with anyone else. Mike deserves more than to be a shitty friend and El's boyfriend (because if he really does just love El, then his actions are just him being mean and weird with no cause or explanation, which I can't imagine is the case), Will deserves more than to be the sad gay in unrequited love who only suffers, and El deserves more than to be some boy's "superhero" who is loved for what she can do more than for who she truly is. She deserves to shake the shackles of male control, and yes... Mike unfortunately falls into this due to his feeling responsible for El's wellbeing because of the unfortunate circumstances they met under. Plus he's, in my opinion, fallen even harden into this parentified role in Hopper's absence (those parallels are insane too, don't even get me started). Anyway, all that to say... Mileven is an objectively bad ship that doesn't fit with the story Stranger Things is telling. It doesn't serve any of the characters involved in a positive way, and Byler is a significantly more touching and well-built couple. Personally, even the argument that El will be "crushed if they break up" doesn't really carry any weight. It's clear that she has already hurt so much IN THE RELATIONSHIP, so ending it just seems like the logical next step (and I'm among the people who believe she wanted to break up at the pizza place tbh). Why should she stay with someone who can only love her in life-or-death situations? Why should Mike be with someone who makes him feel worthless or not enough or like his personal experiences and struggles aren't valid? Why should Mike and El settle for a relationship that takes so much work but makes them both ultimately unhappy (it's giving Karen a d Ted). Why should Will just accept that in a world of demogorgans and alternate dimensions and telekinetic lab children, the craziest and most unlikely thing is a queer boy like him finding requited love with the person who makes them feel better for being different and encourages them to fight on? I just don't think the writers are telling that kind of story. I love El, Mike, and Will... I hope they will get a beautiful ending. To me, a beautiful ending would include Mike and El mutually caring for each other enough to admit that their relationship is not good for either of them as El deserves to be loved and needs time to heal, and Mike deserves to embrace his truth and his own feelings without feeling insignificant or unlovable (and ultimately be rewarded for embodying one of the show's core themes: that forced conformity is bad, you will never feel gratification or happiness by pretending to be something or someone you're not, it's okay to be a "freak" and it's okay to be different and to rebel against the limited, restrictive forms of "happiness" society pushes. After all, forced conformity is one of the real villains in this show, as clearly stated!)

[chadsuke]

11 and 19 for the choose violence ask gameee !!

11. number of fandom-related words you've filtered

glances at filter.................... A Lot. i'll just talk about them like any that are like fucking. omegaverse or mpreg or shit like that but then naruto wise ANYYYYYYY anti women. like if ur out here tagging anti sakura i dont want 2 fucking talk to u. (not that there aren't things 2 be critical with in regards 2 the naruto women but i don't want that kind of shit in my life thanks). also all those godawful sakura ships u guys put that woman through so much. no fucking thank u

19. you're mad/horrified/ashamed you actually kind of like...

this is a hard one bc. im not very ashamed of most of what i like LMAO. like i like a lot of naruto fillers but im not ashamed abt that.

i guess... asuma and shikamaru? given how like fucking. misogynistic and shitty naruto is as a work tbh i just kind of block out their Really Bad traits and i forget sometimes. oh yeah... right... shika is a massive misogynist anyway not in my world bc i dont wanna deal with that. or like i wrote kurenai/asuma/anko once and i had comments abt getting the women away from asuma and i was like. huh. i guess i just Don't Have Negative Feelings on them?

or maybe (funnily enough jumping off ur answer) i actually like inosai and sakusai? which is funny bc ive never written them but not if they are het. they are yuri. sai learns they don't have to be a man and the other two are like hell yes. one day i will write T4T sakusai or inosai or inosakusai.

non-naruto related the only thing i can think of that im honestly ashamed i like is the fact that i like those fucking fishpreg BL books why are they so fucking funny

[majorbaby]

Friend, "ask me about ot3s I'll never go away"? I'm asking about ot3s 👀

hi! lol we would literally be here all day if i listed every single ot3 of mine and i'm sure there's plenty that wouldn't interest you if they're from fandoms you don't follow, but i'm gonna speak generally with a few examples: ot3s are great because I'm a multishipper and I love threesomes (and the occasional foursome/moresome) lol what can I say. Unless something is a squick for me I can usually find some way to make it square in my head. And I like gay stuff, so an MF is usually further enhanced for me by making it MFF or MMF (although i also like MMM and FFF). Sometimes there's also the appeal of just... weird or inconvenient sex. It's funny, it's experimental, where else can you get this kind of content. i love the vibe between Inu/Kag/Miroku in the early days of Inuyasha before Sango is introduced. i like Miro/Sango too but like, those three clowns might've hooked up pre-Sango days. and i often genuinely can't choose between one ship and another, or i don't want to write out a ship so that i can include another one. i like Ed/Ling from fma but i also love Winry and it's not out of this world to me that she'd be down for a threesome lol. (Actually the problem would be Ed... but I think he could be convinced.) For the other het ships i listed... Bat/Wonder Woman... like why not complete the trifecta and have SuperWonderBat? They are iconic for a reason and they're fun together. Actually this just works really well in general for American comics that have been so long-running each character has a multitude of possible ships, and probably some homoerotic tension with someone at some point? Other times i'm literally not interested unless it's an ot3, like something is missing without it? Tbh this tends to happen with underdeveloped het ships, when there's a rival/bff/villain character right there with whom the hero has plenty of development, but the creator also hasn't totally neglected the canon love interest (usually a female character who has been somewhat sidelined lol). That's your Sasu/Naru/Saku (Naruto), Inu/Kag/Koga (they teased Kag/Koga and I was kinda into it, but I need Inuyasha to also be there for me to get on board) and most of the canonical ships from the Final Fantasy canon. In general, if I'm supposed to be into a couple for ~aesthetic reasons~ or there is a ton of ship tease but no canonical confirmation, as with many rpgs of the 90s and 2000s, then I'm piling on all the aesthetics that appealed to me. If I'm feeling in the mood for something a bit more fucked up, fraught and ultimately doomed threesome is great: Link/Zelda/Ganondorf and Link/Midna/Zelda (Legend of Zelda), Anakin/Obi-Wan/Padme (Star Wars), Jean/Scott/Logan (X-Men) and Shinji/Kaworu/Asuka... even throw Rei in there, whatever (NGE). Finally there are ships for whom it just Makes Sense. Finn/Rey/Poe (Star Wars), Haruka/Michiru/Setsuna (Sailor Moon), Watanuki/Doumeki/Himawari (xxxHolic) just to name a few. Or ships featuring two people who are super horny and flirty in general that I can easily see adding a third (or fourth or many), which describes almost all the horny situations I'm submitting my main fandom (MASH) darlings to inside my brain and sometimes on paper. ftr there are ships for whom I think it truly doesn't work and if it's me saying that then trust me, I've tried. there's a good amount of ships I enjoy without it too, but i think i'm probably in the minority in that whenever i get into a fandom i'm holding three or more swatches up at time trying to figure out what can work.

[quicktimeeventfull]

Hi I noticed you have been in the deathnote fandom for a long time. Do you know some changes the fandom/ships went through? I already know that the misogyny towards misa used to be terrible

hi! absolutely! for context i got into death note around 2006 and have spent most of my time on livejournal, deviantart, youtube, gaiaonline and then of course tumblr; i've used LJ, deviantart, quizilla, ao3, fanfiction.net and independent websites/forums for fic. i have been involved more broadly in anime/manga fandom since 2001. i say all this because people's fandom experiences will vary dramatically based on their platform of choice. broadly speaking: death note was a HUGE phenomenon with massive international popularity, and was very critically acclaimed -- it was often discussed as the most accessible series for beginners due to its high quality and its lack of fanservice. it was generally seen as being very somber. it was also well-known for being difficult to write for on account of its dialogue-heavy nature. for the most part i think the ships themselves have remained stable -- lawlight has always been the most popular by a large margin, and mello/near and matt/mello followed behind. there were a lot more fans in general, though, so mello/near and matt/mello were massive - 25% of 100 000 is a lot more than 25% of 100. the way people ship has changed dramatically, however. people used to care a lot about whether or not something was canonically viable, so there'd be loads of posts proving that lawlight was 'real.' ship wars ime used to be a lot more aggressive but were also less moralistic. people also cared a LOT about who was the seme/uke in a relationship. this was of course partially because of the lack of awareness around how real queer couples function, but it was also because of the relative popularity of doujinshi; seme/uke indicated a character's personality, not just their position. (i should say this was not at all universal, and there's plenty of content from that era which does not follow these conventions, as well as a myriad of queer people who objected to this.) because algorithmic content distribution was nonexistent and sites explicitly for fic (ff.net, ao3) hadn't yet taken over, fic rec lists were a HUGE part of the fic economy. personally i think they should come back; they're great for niche content and lesser-known artists, and they foster community. you will often notice older fans using names like raito, mero, or nia. these are holdovers from scanlations, as the official english spellings weren't available until late in the series (for mello and near) or the official translations (for light) as a point of note, you'll sometimes see people saying that 'eru' was the name used for L, but this just isn't true; L's name was spelt with the roman character even in original japanese. early scanlations are still widely available, so you can see all this (plus tonal changes re: the dialogue) for yourself. tbh i don't actually think the misogyny towards misa is worse; i think the language surrounding it has just gotten more intellectualized. i feel this way about a lot of problems in fandom. also ok here's some linguistic trivia i find very interesting but which got long enough that i decided to put it at the end, please ofc feel free to skip this:

ships used to be tagged with / \ | or & to indicate the type of relationship. how they worked were: / and \ were for slash ships, | was for het ships, and & was for platonic ships. why do all this? partially it was because it was much easier to scan if you're on a site that displays only titles. it was also used to avoid censorship on sites that cracked down on gay or sexual relationships, as the terms were less obvious and also wouldn't get picked up by automods. \ | in particular were useful in roleplaying context where users wished to request straight or gay rps; since fic and rp often involves the same people, there's crossover in the terminology. / and \ were used to indicate seme vs. uke. for example: L/light means L is the seme, and L\light means L is the uke. (the idea was that the slash pointed to the receiver.) you could also show seme vs. uke by ordering the characters. in this case, L/light indicates that L is the seme and light/L indicates that light is the seme. the \/ distinction was already falling out of popularity by the time death note hit its stride, so the latter was the much more common way of doing things. eventually we got sites with tagging systems which required consistent ship names, so the whole top/bottom naming distinction fell away, and combined ship names (ex. lawlight) became more popular. seme vs. uke were then explicitly indicated via bang paths. (seme!light.) this kind of happened concurrently with the shift from seme/uke to top/bottom. if you have an interest in early fandoms, i would highly recommend both 'everything i need i get from you' by katitlyn tiffany and 'because internet' by gretchen mcculloch. 'everything i need i get from you' focuses largely on the social and technical factors behind fandom, and 'because internet' is about linguistics.

[piperslovebot]

My current feelings on the T9S ships (updated)

I made this a few months ago and I thought since s2 is out, I can do this again.

Jay/Leia - I ship them even harder this season than the last because we get to see just how rock solid their relationship is. It’s like how Formciotti was a budding relationship in s1 and in s2, we see them mature. And I love their ‘I love you' arc! It’s so angsty and obstacle filled yet so them! I love how much Jay was willing to do to prove that he's changed. I can easily say that after watching this season that I can’t imagine Jay nor Leia with anyone else.

Gwen/Nikki - Still my otp of otps. I'm so happy to see more scenes of them just like I wanted. Nikki actually gets upset at Gwen for lying and the latter apologizes and is there for her. Their plot in Baby Baby Baby was also SO GOOD. It just proves why Gwen is Nikki's best option. Gwen challenges Nikki to get out of her comfort zone, and take risks. And Nikki is good for Gwen too! I feel like aside from Cole, Nikki really brought out Gwen's soft side this season. I actually have a feeling they'll end up being a thing. I hope they do.

Gwen/Cole - They were so sweet together imo. I loved seeing Gwen navigate a relationship for the first time, and I really like Cole. He’s such a sweetheart and makes Gwen really happy. I hope we see more of them in part 3. This is the only valid het ship for Gwen as far as I’m concerned.

Gwen/Leia - I love their dynamic, but I don’t ship them romantically anymore this season. They had cute moments, but for the most part, that romantic tension was gone this season. I do love seeing their friendship growing stronger and they truly remind me of Jackie and Donna, especially in the episode where Leia gives Gwen relationship advice.

Nikki/Leia - I honestly don’t know. I like how things were handled with them when it came to the Nate shit, and I loved their hug in the premiere 🥰. I'm not exactly in love with Nikki saying that Leia was "clueless" and like "a doll that was wished to life yesterday" (she’s not wrong tho since girlie was sheltered after till '95 😂) and obviously there’s the Nate stuff haha. But I like the bones we got and I think it'll be cool to see more of them in part 3.

Jay/Ozzie - I love their friendship, but I can’t see them romantically anymore, even if I didn’t only see Jay and Leia with each other 😂. I don’t see Ozzie being into Jay tbh, but who knows? Anything can happen.

Ozzie/Etienne - Etienne, you dickhead lol. Him dumping Ozzie through a phone call is so shitty and Ozzie deserves better.

Jay/Nate - Still love them. Even though Jeia is my heart, I still get Janate feels haha. I love how Jay was there for Nate during his breakup with Nikki. One thing about Jay Kelso is unlike his father, he's loyal as fuck haha. I really love their friendship in this season and I can’t wait to see more in part 3. No one gets Nate the way Jay does.

Nate/Leia - At this point, I only want them as Hyde/Donna friendship. Them being a couple at this point imo would make no sense. Both of them admitted it was just a heat of the moment thing and that they want Nikki and Jay. They still have great chemistry tho haha.

Nate/Nikki - I like their storyline a lot better this season. With them finally breaking up, Nate apologizing to Nikki, and their fwb arc. And they were so carefree and happy around one another.

But as a couple, I don’t want them back. It's like, they both are still on different pages when it comes to their futures; and I've talked how I believe that Nikki's current views on her future make them more incompatible so I'm not gonna do that again haha. Plus I feel like if they got back together, all that carefreeness and joy would be gone and they'd go back to constantly fighting.

I much rather them as friends or fwb than them becoming a couple again.

[kastellaran]

9 Fandom Peeps to Get to Know Better

tagged my @defeateddetectives ^_^ thank you <33

3 ships you like: hmm see which three should I pick here... let's say komahina (danganronpa. yes), bruabba (jjba p5) and just to spice things up, momoko and ichi from maiko-san chi no makanai (really lovely food centric manga about two girls who move to kyoto to become maiko but one of them ends up becoming the cook at the maiko house instead. sometimes frustrates me because of how strong the gay "undertones" are and then the author seems to insist on pursuing a het love triangle/probably het end game with a dude who has a comparatively shallow relationship with his love interest. anyway ever since the flashback chapters came out ive been shipping the house mother and sumire's geiko onee-san because if there's one throughline in my top ships, it's older side characters with some kind of tragic/emotionally fraught relationship LOL.) propaganda:

"Yuuko never let anyone in her room before she became a trainee. [...] For her to be swapping beds with others is... no, it's just Azusa."

(They have each other's apartment keys. She comes over and sleeps in her room. Halfsies!!!)

(This is basically a marriage proposal to me)

first ship ever: ...I think it was karkat/terezi from homestuck. This is kind of funny but before I really got into fandom or when I was just beginning, my approach to text was basically reading it with the most surface level/likely reading. I literally didn't understand why people would ship characters who I "knew" would never get together in canon. I didn't see the point in it LOL to me shipping was like horse racing or something, you ship the characters who are the most likely to end up together. This is also very funny in retrospect considering what happened with that particular ship but I had long moved on from it by the time davekat was canonized so I was happy.

last song you heard: either burning desire by lana del rey (blaming mirai for this) or alan stivell's ian morrisson reel

favourite childhood book: i don't think i had or have a favorite one ummm I was really into the secret series by pseudonymous bosch when i was a kid

currently reading: hmm i'm keeping up with maiko-san and ekuoto (make the exorcist fall in love. it's neat i recommend it though i'm not a big fan of the art style), and I was reading the oofuri manga which i should get back to but currently my attention is being taken up by natsuyuu lol. as for non-manga though the last thing I read before natsuyuu was Devil Venerable Also Wants To Know which is SO GOOD and i had more art ideas in mind for it which i want to get back to at some point...

currently watching: I don't watch a whole lot of stuff. I'm keeping up with the dunmeshi anime but tbh i really don't like the coloring for it. the art is okay but ryoko kui's art is kind of unmatched. it's just nice to have something to watch with my friend every week. also i've been doing a natsuyuu anime rewatch in anticipation of s7 with a friend whose never seen it before

currently consuming: nothing but i just had some crazy noodles. leftover curry in a pan + frozen corn + instant noodles = yummy

currently craving: nothing because i am now full :D

ill tag @ponimado @tattoosingarishhues @beguinemystic @dysaniium @moritzallein @somapodra @garbageg0blin @chuck-charles @joelletwo as always this is just if you wanna!

[marley-manson]

okay the full review in a pros and cons list lol

pros:

uh my ship canon. i win, motherfuckers. fuckin 15 year old me was right this whole time, as always, but it's nice to see it acknowledged for once.

the confession scene also just kicked ass tbh

i gotta admire the cheekiness of the back and forth hesitant phrasing of their relationship, eg crowley referring to '...us' and aziraphale's 'i need you!' 'we can be together' etc until finally crowley just runs back to kiss him

and you know aziraphale was about to say 'i love you' before cutting himself off <3

touching his lips after too <3

the reasons for the break up felt reasonable to me and justified with the season's flashbacks to crowley questioning things and aziraphale's resistance

some pretty funny jokes, i laughed outloud a few times

michael sheen and david tennant do have excellent chemistry

never gonna say no to side lesbians even if they were incredibly bland

i think the way it was structured like a fanfic was a pro honestly lol. the plot sucked, i don't care about it, so it's nice that the story itself also doesn't care

amnesiac gabriel was endearing

crowley not kiling goats was cute

ty tennant was in it for about a minute and spent that minute hitting on aziraphale and it was fucking bonkers

no het

like i think job and his wife may have literally been the sole exception including like references to offscreen spouses lmao, i'm v impressed, and if this is penance for last season then i forgive.

i thought it was cute that gaiman incorporated the song he wanted for season 1 into this season as a plot point

beelzebub's new actor was so much better. and the flies were somehow kinda cute, i'll give the gabriel/beelzebub ship that.

good old fashioned lover boy. we all wanted it, they gave it to us, i appreciate it

here's my review: gay enough

cons:

mostly sucked as like, a narrative

tennant's fucking performance as crowley was so annoying, he or the director doubled down on what i hated last season and stripped him of all the endearing humanizing aspects of his performance and the result was like watching donald duck screaming for 6 episodes

the chemistry was still there but the actual pining kiiiiinda wasn't, actually lol. oh they referred to it in scripted moments, jokes, parallels, and straightforward statements, but they didn't... show it, particularly. until the confession nothing even approaches the tenderness and emotion of like any of their season 1 scenes, let alone the car scene or the bus stop scene or the ritz or the french revolution rescue or the blitz or eden etc etc. and david tennant did not say one word in that cute hopeful pining tone

to be honest after watching the whole show this is the most disappointing part. like the car scene??? could i not get a sequel to that? let crowley be tender!!!!

i think the reason we don't get scenes like that, other than perhaps uncomfortable restraint due to acknowledging the romance textually, is that they went from crowley practically begging aziraphale to cave and fuck him for centuries to crowley now angry repressed and needing a push to say anything, which also felt wrong to me, like iffy fanfic characterization

it was bad enough that i was nervous they were going to depict neither as actually aware of their feelings. thankfully they did not, and it still feels like crowley has been pining for a thousand years and they've both been aware but dancing around it, with the way the confession was phrased. that should be a pro, actually.

also yk all the obvious things. dumb jokes, a lot of bad acting (i feel like the director is at fault though tbf), not into the twee tone in general for the most part, a lot of scenes that were way too drawn out, utterly nonsensical narrative, characters doing things for no reason other than convenience constantly (why do the lesbians stay to help fight the demons? because their characters are more important and need more screen time), 0 stakes wrt heaven and hell because they're all so wholly ineffectual as antagonists and neither crowley nor aziraphale ever gave a shit about their threats, etc etc

oh lol nina sosanya being cast again as a brand new character, no relation to sister mary loquacious. it's not a big con since i like her and was happy to see her again, but it did feel lazy lol. at least give me the identical twin cousin explanation

was crowley living out of his car a joke bc they don't have the set from last season? did god not restore his flat like the bookshop? what's up with that? and how much time has passed since last season anyway? why didn't he get a new flat? why is he living in his car? what's going on?

nightingale references at the end felt tacked on and awkward to me tbh

ohhhhh raphael!crowley's very obviously hinted at and i hate that headcanon :/

crowley's kinda hilariously gary stuish honestly, making me really miss the book and even season 1 where he was like, yk, fucking incompetent sometimes. here he's lounging on couches without a care while being threatened by heaven and hell multiple times, pulling off perfect shots with no practice, waltzing into heaven without a second thought, bluffing demons easily and successfully, etc. and that's in addition to being right about everything and also being raphael like what happened to my dumbass low-level loser fave who fucked up the apocalypse by accident and lived in terror of phone calls from hell???

heaven and hell are "toxic" lol? that phrasing is so awkward, and like, i'd say minimizing but i guess tbf they didn't pose much of a threat in this season. but still c'mon, why you describing 2 murderous doomsday cults/cold warring governments as toxic like they're your annoying ex? especially after the running gag about nina's shitty girlfriend constantly therapy speaking at her condescendingly lol. how about 'hey remember how they worked together to try to kill us last season?'

oh gabriel/beelzebub of course lol, whatever happened to neil gaiman being unable to read fanfic or even people's headcanon posts for fear of accidentally plagiarizing ideas? bring back the separation between fandom and creator stat, fandom has way too much influence here and fandom fucking sucks

a little petty but honestly the kiss could've been good, yk? there's no reason it had to be bad, they could've just given into it for a bit for a hopeful romantic moment before aziraphale freaks and pulls away. like can i get 2 dudes to kiss with tongue at some point on my television here?

needs more queen

[zeroducks-2]

I keep encountering antis in the wild so far my favorite one has been the one who was frothing over Jaytim shippers. "Just because they're not technically brothers"!

Friend they're not technically nor non-technically brothers. They weren't raised together. They don't have a brother dynamic.

"It's different from DickBabs and TimSteph!" Not really! You're just cherrypicking!

90% of antis use anti rhetoric to justify why their ship is better/more valid than another, not because they really care about things they deem immoral or whatever, and I think a lot of Fandom Discourse tends to miss that by a long shot.

Like more often than not it's just bitches digging for reasons why their OTP is the only ship that can be shipped, therefore if you ship something else You're Wrong and the ship you ship shouldn't even exist. They use arguments on morality and such because they're hard to argue with - lots of folks don't know what to say when they're faced with "don't ship X and Y cause it's harmful and abusive!", "you're hurting victims of SA and grooming by shipping X and Y!" - and what happens is that they get scared out of the ships/topics they like and stop engaging actively with fanworks. Sometimes they rationally or subconsciously realize that it works, so they end up even adopting the same rhetoric as it's really fucking convenient: being on the moral high horse is delicious because people feel like it automatically puts them in the category of the good guys, therefore everyone else is a bad guy and they can harass them and send them death threats, even if it's just about shipping fictional characters.

I've seen this happen in basically every single fandom I've been in since I was 12 (and I am Not Young™), and I've seen the most unexpected people use anti rhetoric while not being antis themselves, or even labeling themselves as proshippers, but they would still use anti arguments to "legitimize" their ship and claim how and why it was better than others in the same fandom. Instead of just... saying that one ship in particular is not for them. Tbh lately I'm only trusting multi-shippers not to pull anti bullshit out of their ass, and this niche of the DC fandom is really a safe haven. But I digress.

One of the things that really pisses me off the most is the rampant homophobia. Going by generic anti logic Jaydick is incest, but Dickbabs isn't. Jaytim is incest, Timsteph isn't. Brudick, Brujay, Brutim are all incestuous ships - except Bruce and Barbara isn't. The het ship is fine would you look at that. Childhood friends to lovers is alright with pop culture as long as it's a man and a woman, because if it's two men they'll immediately scream incest and abuse (lumping them together too, while they're also not the same thing ffs). Because hiding behind anti mentality and purity culture there's the big bad monster of queerphobia, which shows its ugly face the moment you take a peek below the surface.

And since I feel like this isn't being said enough. Dick and Jason ARE NOT BROTHERS. Neither are Dick and Tim, or Dick and Damian, Jason and Damian, Jason and Tim, I could go on. These people are not related, not by blood or legally, not in any way that matters and would make it incest. They're a legacy of characters who wear the same cowl for narrative reasons, and THAT'S IT.

Calling Jaydick "incest" irks me to no freaking end because I LOVE incest ships, I am DOWN BAD for them, and this one ain't it chief. They're not related. They didn't grow up together. They don't share any brotherly bond except a vague "brothers in arms" kinda thing. People decided this at some point in order to have an argument why their plastic prepackaged het ships were better than the Bad Abusive (gay) ones, because they're fucking homophobes, and that is about it.

And that's what I really want to say to all the young, queer antis that parrot the terfs and homophobes that pushed them in that direction. They are taking away a space that is YOURS TOO. They fucking HATE YOU. They hate you because you're queer, gay, bi, pan, ace, trans, nonbinary, a woman, even just a teen. Purity culture and anti mentality is how they keep you under control, tied to their morality leash and making life miserable to every other queer person that refuses to conform and refuses to shut up and to stop enjoying fiction for the harmless, but also valuable thing that it is.