#how i make sense of eobard's weird timeline issues

[kitkatt0430]

Here, have some headcanons regarding Eobard Thawne

As one of my favorite villains in the Arrow-verse, I've probably way overthought everything to do with this guy. Thanks to Tom Cavanagh's sinisterly charming portrayal of him in season one of the Flash and Matt Letscher's affably evil portrayal in season two of the Legends, Eobard has some very interesting depth and layers going on. Not to forget a twisty timeline that he set the stage for destroying when he let his obsession with killing the Flash go too far (kicking off the plot of the show in the process).

Also, there's two of him. Minimum.

So first we have the original Eobard Thawne. He created the timeline that kicked off the Flash when he traveled back in time to kill Barry and then murdered Nora Allen instead in a fit of temper when the Flash of the original timeline stopped him. He refashioned himself into Harrison Wells, pushed Eddie Thawne too far in trying to break him up with Iris West, and was erased from the timeline for his actions. The last we see of him is his morph back into his original form before being erased from the timeline entirely. But, as we all know, that's not the last we see of Eobard Thawne.

There are a lot retcons going on where Eobard is concerned. First we have the big retcon - Flashpoint.

Barry goes back to save his mom, realizes the timeline he's created not only isn't the timeline Eobard erased but is actually costing Barry his powers and his friends their happiness, and asks Matt!Eobard to fix it. Which he, quite gleefully, does. Presumably he stops the end-of-season-2 version of Barry from interfering with Nora's murder, which leaves us now with two versions of Eobard. The original Eobard who goes on to die at the end of season one of the Flash, and the flashpoint remnant who goes on to be the leader of the Legion of Doom in season two of Legends. He dies at the hands of the Black Flash (who is then killed in a truly cathartic moment by Frost over on the Flash) and that should be the end of Eobard Thawne, right?

Of course not. He's got the same 'wave hands, escape death' clause that the Master from Doctor Who has. And, honestly, it's more fun when their survival isn't properly explained because that's how headcanons are born. (I have so many headcanons for the Master...)

First, however, there is a bit of an elephant in the room with the idea that the Legends season 2 Eobard isn't the same Eobard who died at the end of season 1 of the Flash. And that's Matt!Eobard's claim on the Legends that he knew and worked with Cisco and Caitlin. It's a bit of a throw away line, though, and I prefer to interpret him as telling a lie to further a manipulation. Because if flashpoint!Eobard had gone on to become Harrison Wells and lived the events of season one of the Flash... Barry would have come back to a season three timeline that was far more changed than the one he did. Forget whatever Savitar was doing behind the scenes; Eobard would have had knowledge of his plan ultimately failing and changed tactics. It makes more sense that flashpoint!Eobard diverged from non-flashpoint!Eobard at that point, giving us two Eobards who ultimately suffered the same fate: erasure from the timeline for their hubris. (The Arrow wiki seems to be using the same, or at least similar, logic and has classed the flashpoint!Eobard as a remnant as well.)

Okay, so now we're back to the point where there were two versions of Eobard Thawne and they're both dead.

Eobard next shows up in the Crisis on Earth-X event and he's taken the appearance of Harrison Wells once more. He claims not to know how he wound up there, but of course Eobard's a lying liar who lies about lying.

(So part of the decision making process here was probably conservation of actors. They've already got Tom Cavanagh there playing the part of Harry, Tom absolutely loves getting chances to reprise his role as Eobard, and that's one less actor they have to pay for a big crossover event.)

Eobard's a little unhinged here, playing the mad doctor for the Earth-X Nazis. How much of that is him being from far enough in the future that the implications against his character for teaming up with Nazis just doesn't matter to him (after all, it's not the first time he's done so) and how much is that is because he's mentally unbalanced from surviving temporal erasure... unclear. He's certainly no longer bothering with the calm facade that Eobard carried off during season one of the Flash. He also makes threats against Cisco specifically, which hint at his growing enmity for the man Eobard once considered to be like a son.

This Eobard has three potential origins.

Origin one is that he's the same Eobard who died at the end of season one of the Flash. He somehow survived by drawing on his connection to the negative speed force at the last millisecond and was reconstituted at random on Earth-X. He then either chose to take the appearance of Harrison Wells again - either because he was able to reassume it due to having previously absorbed the other man's genome or he once again played DNA vampire and killed off Earth-X's Harrison Wells in the process - or he was reconstituted in the form of Harrison Wells from the get-go and was messing with Barry about taking other people's faces.

Origin two is pretty much the same as the first one. He's a remnant that branched off as a sort of emergency back up, similar to Hunter Zolomon's MO, shortly before Eobard plot to return home fell apart. To survive being erased from time, he ran into the Negative Speed Force which eventually dumped him out on the parallel world of Earth-X. And he proceeded to lie his ass off to everyone about why he still looks like Wells.

Origin three is that he's the version of Eobard from Legends season two, who somehow survived the Black Flash erasing him from existence. This one seems highly unlikely since if the negative speed force was a protection from the Black Flash, then he'd have been less freaked out by zombie!Zolomon all season. But it can't be totally ignored because it does generally fit what he says about being erased from existence, somehow showing up alive on Earth-X anyway, and choosing to take the appearance of Harrison Wells specifically because he knew it'd screw with Barry.

At the time, the cross over writers clearly didn't seem to know for sure where this version of Eobard was coming from and it starts what becomes a hallmark of reintroducing Eobard into the plot: copious retcons and handwaving. It also introduces an unfortunate tendency for Eobard's characterization to differ wildly from season to season, abandoning the fairly consistent characterization seen across two different shows (and versions of the character) up until that point.

Regardless of origin, Eobard makes it clear that he's going to be a recurring nuisance and Barry let's him go anyway. Great decision making paradigm there, Barry. Totally not going to bite you on the butt later or anything like that. Nope, you've gotta show you've got the moral high ground, am I right? (so much sarcasm, sorry...)

We see this version of Eobard again in season five of the Flash, now incarcerated in the future and handed a chance to play speed chess against Barry for the prize of Eobard's survival, all with the sweet, sweet revenge twist of using Barry's own daughter as his pawn in all of this. This Eobard is calmer and more put together, but it's heavily implied he was captured by the CCPD before being put in jail. Likely using the power dampening dagger now attached to his prison jumpsuit. What's not clear is what Eobard was doing in the future. When did he arrive and what was he planning?

What's interesting is how attached Eobard becomes to Nora West-Allen. Much like with Cisco and Caitlin before her, Eobard develops a sort of paternal interest in Nora. He pretty clearly manipulates her into learning to utilize the negative speed force, but he does seem genuinely concerned by her well being when he warns Iris of the consequences Nora might face for using the negative speed force. He also tries to help Nora use the negative speed force to avoid being erased from time the same way he did, which he didn't have to do. letting Nora die would hurt Barry, after all, and Eobard is all about hurting Barry.

Now, we do know Eobard was supposed to be part of the red skies crisis event, according to season one of the Flash. The article Eobard was obsessed with describes a fight between the Reverse Flash and the Flash, the latter of which was joined by the Arrow, the Atom, and Hawk-Girl. During the fight, the skies turned red and then both speedsters disappeared in a blinding flash of light, after which the skies returned to normal. Not exactly the big universe-spanning event we did wind up with, but then a front-page summation that seems really interested in the fate of several trucks during the fight is, perhaps, not telling the full story. (Thank goodness for screenshots of that article.) It also seems likely that this was the moment when Eobard, with Barry chasing after him, ran into the past and ended up killing Nora Allen. It proved that the timeline was self-correcting by turning Eobard's screw up into a cyclical paradox and offered him the hope that the future Eobard came from was still intact. That his life as he knew it was still intact.

But Eobard's part in the red skies crisis was cut, offending many a Flash fan during the Crisis on Infinite Earths event that something we'd been promised and were looking forward to since season one got cut. it was a weird decision to make; after all Tom Cavanagh was already there playing Nash and he loves being Eobard. But perhaps they just didn't want to deal with him playing double duty again. Which doesn't excuse not bringing back Matt Letscher to reprise the role as an earlier version of Eobard, especially given how many other actors were brought back for cameos.

Real world aside, in universe Eobard is apparently caught flat footed by the red skies crisis being rescheduled several years early and doesn't survive. Sort of. (Honestly, they should have had Eobard survive in the Speed Force, similar to how movie-verse!Barry apparently did when Arrow-verse!Barry ran into him, but this post is already longer than expected, so...) Because he's genetically Harrison Wells, Eobard manages to survive as part of Nash along with the other versions of Harrison Wells. How exactly that worked was never really clear, but finally gave us some elaboration on Nash's backstory that helped flesh him out. It also showed pretty clearly that Eobard now really hates Cisco. With Barry it's an ego thing, but with Cisco... it's love turned to hate on both sides and honestly it makes Eobard's non-powered fight against Cisco really interesting to watch. Of course, in the end Eobard is kicked out of Nash's mental time share for Harrison Wells and vows to come back more powerful than ever because secretly Eobard wants to be Sith Lord Darth Sideous.

The next time Eobard shows up, he's been reconstituted into a new body by the Speed Force. (Which brings up the question of whether Barry actually did die during the accelerator event in season two and the Speed Force granted him a new body, which could partly explain why Barry was a little weird after Cisco and Iris retrieved him. It's an interesting read of the situation, anyway.) This doesn't really fit with Eobard's claims while being exorcised from Nash like an angry demon, so there was definitely some retconning going on. Regardless, Eobard is so giddy to realize Barry needs him... right up until he learns how much faster Barry is now that the Speed Force is actively playing favorites instead of passively.

This leads into the Reverse Flashpoint, in which Eobard threw negative still force darts at the timeline dartboard to see what stuck. It bites him on the ass, nearly erases him from time... presumably now due to his negative speed force connection in a nonsensical reversal of the explanations for his previous survival despite Eddie's suicide. (I have issues with the Armageddon Arc, go check out the #ArmageddonRevised tags to see more.) Barry depowers Eobard to save his life, both fulfilling Eobard's wishes and also leaving Eobard wishing Barry'd just let him die.

Then, in an interesting decision in symmetry and quite likely making my assumptions about flashpoint!Eobard being a separate remnant from non-flashpoint!Eobard indisputably canon, flashpoint!Eobard returns!!! Matt Letscher gets to reprise Eobard on the Legends once more, stripped of his powers by the time wraiths so that they could re-educate him and make him a guardian of the timeline. Now we've got two versions of Eobard who both get erased from the timeline due to their hubris, are eventually brought back by the Speed Force or her minions, and stripped of their powers. Apparently Eobard just cannot escape his fate no matter which version we're talking about.

But that's just two of the potentially numerous Eobards out there.

When a speedster time travels, whether or not they merge with the version of their self who belongs at that point in the timeline seems completely arbitrary. Down to the whims of the plot and whether or not the speedster in question intends to settle into the timeline and take it over as his own. Which gives us an opening for alternate versions of Eobard to be running around out there in cases where timeline shifts could have created alternate versions of him.

So while we have the canonical remnant of flashpoint!Eobard who will never take on the likeness of Harrison Wells, what other potential time remnant points could exist? Well... lets start by back tracking to Flash season 5 Eobard.

Season 5 Eobard travels from a future where the Cicada dagger wasn't destroyed into a new timeline where it is, thanks to Nora's connection between the two timelines creating a sort of... temporal flux point where Eobard could escape. Since we don't know where Eobard went after the Crisis on Earth-X ended and at what point he chose to run to the future, it's possible that there was another version of Eobard running around out there during the late Spring/early Summer of 2019. This brings the number of potential Eobards up to three.

Then there's season 6's Eobard, a survivor of the Crisis on Infinite Earths. Which means that there's a possibility that the Eobard we see during season 7 and 8 isn't the same one from season 6. He could be the Earth!prime Eobard, which means there might be a ghostly Eobard floating around out there with the ability to possess men known as Harrison Wells... of which we know of only one survivor, hanging out in a temporal loop, reliving his life with Tess Morgan.

The number of Eobards is now four. Bet I could find more if I tried. Like over on the Legends, when Eobard summoned an army of remnants, it's possible one (or more) of those remnants survived and found hidey holes where the time wraiths couldn't find him. (With a speedster's ability to jump realities at will, this brings up a hilarious concept of an uninhabited alternate Earth now populated solely by Eobard remnants in hiding.)

Honestly, with all the retconning of Eobard's history between his appearances on the shows, we could easily have a plethora of this guy. Though at least the series writers seem to have settled on admitting there are canonically two of this guy running around. Now if we could just have the Matt and Tom versions of Eobard team up...

As for the question of what Eobard was up to before being incarcerated in season 5? I strongly suspect that the Armageddon arc shines some light on that. It's possible Eobard was looking into the feasibility of rewriting the timeline and was checking out the effects of the Cicada dagger to see if it would offer him protection from the time wraiths. Only, much to Eobard's surprise, the very thing he was investigating allowed normal cops to defeat him. After all, Eobard's obsession with erasing Barry and taking his place as the Flash was what got Eobard stranded in March 2000. That he's still obsessed with that idea by the time the start of season 8 rolled around means it was likely still his obsession in season 5 too.

Though he might have also been seeking to rewrite time so that he could take over Barry's family after Barry's death, leaving Barry's sacrifice to save the multi-verse in place, but adding insult to injury that Barry's loved ones would then unknowingly go on to love Barry's (self-proclaimed) greatest nemesis after his death. After all, Eobard wouldn't want to become the Flash if it meant dying in Barry's place. And we already know Eobard would happily marry Iris if given the chance - seeing her as a prize to be won. He'd have clearly also liked to have usurped Barry's place as a father to the season 4/5 version of Nora West-Allen, if he'd been given the chance to do so.

[gorogues]

Spoilers for Flash #760! 

You can see the first few pages here.

Team Underappreciated Flash Villains, represent!  We've got Roscoe, Tony, Lashawn, Jeremy, Kadabra, Isaac, Thad, and a whole bunch!  Though as glad as I am to see Lashawn, I have to wonder why she's here or hates Barry when she's never met him...maybe she's just along for the ride.  Some of Wally's other Rogues have never met Barry either, but most are antisocial enough to hate anyone in a Flash suit so that's understandable; a few may not even realize that isn't Wally.  I don't really see Lashawn in that category, though, so we'll have to see what happens with her.  Also, I'm wondering if the last-page villains are from this point in time or from the past, because it'd be nice to have Tony and Isaac back despite their apparent deaths.

One thing I'm a bit disappointed about is that James is on his feet and does not have some epic plan, though he does stick it to Eobard by alerting Team Flash to his location.  He gets sent back to his own time for his troubles, and presumably he'll remain in Iron Heights until he escapes to become a crime boss.  As I noted in my last review, that somewhat changes the narrative of his triumphant escape, but time travel and alterations to the timeline are nothing new to the Flashverse and it's not a new problem.  I'm glad he snitched on Eobard as payback, and am even slightly surprised that the Snarts didn't as well, since they're clearly not thrilled with Eobard's shenanigans either.  It's good that they're not down with grave robbing, but they're not exactly being proactive about their discomfort like James is.  In fact, they seem somewhat paralyzed with indecision, which is presumably from wrestling with their consciences versus their hatred/fear of the Flash....which is entirely understandable, but makes them seem very ineffective.

I really liked Barry's compassion for Thad, and his refusal to fight back despite needing to get past him to escape.  That's Barry at his best, and it obviously surprises Thad and seemingly gets him to back off.  I don't doubt that Thad would (and probably will) join the Legion of Zoom if he could, but he's often been caught off-guard by genuine kindness since it's not something he's accustomed to, and it was good to see that happen again here.  He's been portrayed as an absolute psycho in recentish years, and I'd like to see him dialled back a bit into an angry envious kid who's been damaged by his upbringing as he originally was.  We definitely get a hint of that here, so maybe we'll be seeing more of it.

(Jesse calling him "Tad" is kind of weird, but I guess it's just as valid a nickname as 'Thad' is.)

There was no space to include the scene with Bart and his father Don here, sorry, but Bart manages to trigger his dad's memories and cause the Tornado Twins to return to their senses and to their own time.  They don't get a real moment of interacting as father and son, but Don doesn't hurt him and Bart believes he'll be able to catch up with his dad and aunt soon...hopefully we get to see that at some point!  It seems that the Negative Speed Force had corrupted the Twins somehow and that's why they were such fervent believers in Eobard's cause, and their abandonment of him plus James getting kicked out is why he needs reinforcements at the end of the issue.

But of course Team Flash gets reinforcements as well, since Barry reclaims his body and Max and Jesse return with him.  Will there be more added on either side?  It's hard to say, but Thad may join in and I'm still hoping for Jenni even if the Wests don't appear.  Thad and Axel are in this preview image, but it may just be promo art and not necessarily representative of the actual Legion.  There are two issues left in Williamson's run, so more allies may show up before the end, but we'll have to see how it goes.

It was a pretty good issue overall, though I did find it a bit jarring to see James up and about and without a grand trick at Eobard's expense.  It was good to see Max and Jesse back with the Flash Family, good to see the lesser-appreciated Rogues + villains getting some attention, good to see Bart reach out to his father, and good to see the return of a more classic Thad.  So I think the missed opportunities here are outweighed by the good stuff.  Hopefully we get an epic conclusion to this arc (and to Williamson's run) in the next two issues.

@one-rogue-army will appreciate seeing Replicant and Kadabra!

[killervibe]

Cisco happy with the decision to eliminate his powers regresses his character arc...An Essay.

 Note: This essay isn’t perfect, and it is riddled with some speculative theory, just trying to wrap my head around season 5 and what exactly was it that they’ve done. I’m emotional. There may be some mistakes. I wrote this kinda all in one sitting. I didn’t edit. We may agree or disagree on some things. That’s fine. But this is my take. 

I need to to just to talk about something.

Cisco happy with the decision to eliminate his powers regresses his character arc.

Now, if he took a break from being Vibe, that, I could potentially understand. He had gone through a traumatic experience. He wants to date, wants to try and start a family. Okay. Maybe superhero-ing on the side can cause some difficulty with that. Then hang up the suit. Use your powers instead of your car instead of pew pew machines for a few months. But he’d come back to it. Or at least…In a crisis. They’d be there. That’s his decision. But to completely eliminate that? That’s drastic. It’s never something he had said he wanted to do. Should Cisco want to maintain close ties to Team Flash, which he claims he does “You’re not the problem. You guys are my family” (5x17), he’d be at a bigger risk to threats. In order to properly keep his safety, he’d have to separate from all of them and start somewhere fresh. He’d have to do what Ronnie wanted to do with Caitlin in season 1. To move away completely. It makes no sense! No sense at all! And @nintendo-sixtyvore has pointed out so correctly that every time Cisco has been in serious danger, specifically kidnapped, it had nothing to do with his powers. It had to do with his intelligence!!!!!!! This isn’t going to go away by removing his powers! Read their post here. 

Besides, superhero-ing, and being part of Team Flash, although stressful, weird, sometimes crazy is something Cisco LOVES. It’s what holds him together.

He has said so many times, not only this season (“You’re my friend, my family (5x06)” and 5x05, 5x07 5x10) to Caitlin, and to everyone on Team Flash throughout the series.

In fact, after the particle accelerator explosion, having Barry be a coma patient, and later find out a meta-human Is what jump started Cisco’s excitement, his career, and his life again after such a terrible event. Cisco was the one on board with Barry from the very start.

We learn in 3x19, in the 2024 that was dissolved, that Cisco was the only one who remained in Team Flash. Barry was depressed. Iris was dead. Wally was paralyzed. HR skipped town. Julian became Killer Frost’s glorified zoo keeper. Caitlin as Cisco knew it was dead. He had lost his family, his purpose, his passion. He was depressed. He stopped taking care of his hair.

And he had lost his hands. He had lost his powers. “No hands. No Vibe,” he says brokenly.

I mean, first of all, that shouldn’t make all that much sense. His sensory vibes aren’t linked to his hands. He’s had vibes without touching anything, and he has stated that he sometimes gets them randomly (2x11,1x23) but apparently here they’re all gone the moment his hands are lost? Well. Okay. So lets take that for how he said it. No more hands means no more vibe blasts. It means no more breaches. No more Vibe. He can’t be the same hero, he can’t use his hands, he can’t make things the way he used to. He can’t feel any longer. He can’t thrust power from his hands, can’t open the world to the multiverse. But he can still have Vibes because he told Barry “I had a feeling” he’d be there. What does this mean? It means his Vibes are still there. He’s heartbroken over the other half of his powers being gone. 

Killer Frost did that purposely. She could have killed him. She could have frosted his feet, his hair, his head…Anything else. But no. Cisco was the link to her humanity, and she wanted to squash it. She knew what would do that, what would officially make Cisco turn her away. Doing the unthinkable. Hurting him the most. Taking away what he loves. His powers.

So she did. And it worked. He understandably withdrew from her, grew sad, despondent, but even then even then he wanted to still work with Team Flash. Even when everything was up in flames, he was the last man standing.

Because he’s strong. He’s strong and he’s a hero. He loves to be a hero.

And Team Flash is his family. Its what he loves to do. Its where he belongs.

Team Flash being his family starts to disintegrate around 5x10. I have another theory that this is elevated by a continued resentment against Frost (explicitly Frost. Not Caitlin. Never Caitlin—which makes things complicated) that has never went away. You can find that here. 

His vocabulary about “us” and “we” and “our” has changed to “me” and “my”. When he talks to Frost, he says: “Barry, Iris, Nora, they have a family. Even you and Caitlin have your weird little family. But what about my family?”

He automatically blames his powers as preventing him from having a family (which two episodes before he repetitively said with joy was Team Flash). Preventing him from being safe.

Cisco doesn’t know that. That assumption isn’t quite logical. Doesn’t it make more sense to discuss this with a potential partner. He didn’t make it about his powers there. He never said that “I hate opening breaches.” He never said “I find dimensional hopping repulsive.”  He has said he was scared, that he was nervous, that he didn’t understand his powers in season 2 when they were developing, especially his vibes, because they were confusing. But the thing that was the most confusing to him were the visions he saw. The fact he could see other timelines, the fact he could see the future. It didn’t have to do with his hands.

5x22 was Cisco’s first showdown with Thawne since season 1. The Thawne who killed him. The Thawne he knew. But it wasn’t his very first encounter with a Thawne since then. This leads to something that sat badly with me. The conversation between Eobard and Cisco. Yes, Eobard is an ass, so he probably mentioned killing Cisco for shits and giggles because he knew he could, and because he wanted to pull it again with Nora, but…Using this to enhance Cisco’s reasoning for taking away his powers? No.

In fact, in 2x11, called, oh, I don’t remember…Oh yes. THE REVERSE-FLASH RETURNS. 2x11’s B plot was all about Cisco developing his powers, and confronting his fear. Giving himself agency.

At the end of the episode, they have Reverse Flash contained, and Cisco goes up to him and says his killer piece:

“My name is Cisco Ramon. I want you to know that I’m the one who figured out you were back. I helped stop you. Me.”

“And how’d you do that?”

“I have powers. And I helped track you down and I put you in here.”

“That’s quite the ability you have.”

“And here’s what’s so ironic about it. You gave me these powers. Have fun thinking about that while you rot away in this cell that you helped me build. Bye, Felicia.”

Cisco was so proud about that.

Soon after that he had a seizure (the result of Eobard being in their time, not because of anything Cisco did) but even after waking up, asking what was happening, Harry replied “We think you vibed one dimension too many.”

Cisco started to laugh. Not an afraid one or a nervous one. It was genuine, to which Joe joined along, as it was contagious and immediately accurately assessed that “Yeah, I think he’s going to be fine.”

In season 3, Cisco said he was afraid about using his vibrational powers against Caitlin because he was afraid of hurting her. But that was because he loves Caitlin. She’s his best friend. He didn’t want to kill her. And Cisco at the end of season 3 did exactly that. He was able to help Caitlin, fight Caitlin, and do it safely without hurting her. Without killing her. He grew. In season 3, Cynthia told him he could do a lot more with his powers. That she could show him. This was never continued on screen.  

Season 4 reveals Cisco spent 6 months as the meta field leader of Team Flash and worked with Wally (which we only got 1 episode to see…Nice.) He did a good job, and was shown being great at it. He was in a really good place, despite the circumstances. He missed Barry. He missed Caitlin. But he had his powers. He had Star Labs. He had Cynthia. He had his purpose. 

We know that Cisco was knocked out in the crossover in s4 oh so conveniently because his powers would’ve made the Crisis much less of a threat (…). By 4x16, Cisco purposely pointedly avoids shaking Matthew’s hand because 

***“No offence. I like my powers.”***

 At this point, Cisco’s powers were a part of who he was.

When Breacher offered Cisco a job at the collection agency, he refused because he wanted to stay. Stay on Earth One. He wanted to stay with Team Flash. He wanted to be Vibe. Before he got the job offer, he had to explain to Breacher that he wasn’t going to get his powers back because they had gone from old age. He explains why he lied because “I know how special our powers are.” 

That’s the Cisco Ramon progression we’ve had. That’s where he was.

To have Cisco….Revert? To, what? To Pre 2x11??? It retracts all of this.  

Another thing. Cynthia having the same powers as him? He liked that. It added a lot to his attraction. Now, how does that translate after the break-up is curious. It’s possible he’s grown an aversion to them following the split. “If I can’t even make it work with the girl who has the same powers as me, then what’s the point?” But see, even this logic is a relationship issue. Not anything about his ability, exactly. This arguments fits better with why he was so keen to jump ship with Kamilla. “She’s normal!!! No more inter-dimensional long distance!!” Cisco is muddling two separate issues here, pinning them on being a metahuman. Cisco and Cynthia’s relationship didn’t fail because of Cisco’s powers.

By season 5, he was drinking. He was trying to avoid pain. He was feeling down. Caitlin tried to help him. Ralph tried to help him.

Cue 5x03.

He was almost killed in 5x03, and had dark matter sliced into his palms which had remained for several weeks.

Now what other main characters had dark matter wounds? Orlin. Grace. Nora. Cisco. What did they all (except Nora, which I’ll get to in a sec)have in common? The moment they got these wounds, anti-meta sentiments emerged to varying degrees. This degree is in correlation with their wounds.

Remember Grace? The dark matter in her wound was in her head, it was so bad it warped her judgement, her mental state grew dark. Grace's was in her head, so it was the most intense. This was confirmed (By Caitlin’s Doctor-ing/Meta-science-ing) in 5x22 when the cure was in fact being neutralized by the dark matter inside young Grace and it was difficult.

The same thing happened with Cicada I. His dark matter wound in his chest changed his perception as well, going as far as to want to commit suicide once his war on metas was over.

Nora was stabbed in the back, paralyzing her and also taking away her speed. But, she has fast healing, and she eventually returned to normal (debatably. Remember she’s under the influence of negative role models, and later on the negative speed force later on).

Now, Cisco’s hand slices were the most superficial. He was also stabbed in the back but apparently the Flash writers forgot all about that and thought that a stab wound to the back that needed a brace would heal faster than two sliced palms, but alas, I digress.

His hands were sliced with dark matter, and the moment they were…. “The Death of Vibe.”

Cisco wasn’t in 5x04. But he was back in 5x05. And this is when he started to develop a RANDOM CONFUSING dislike towards his powers. Towards being a meta-human. He no longer wanted to be Vibe. 

But here’s my thing. He had dark matter stuck in his hands. He’s had them in him for a long time. They were only taken out by 5x10. Caitlin even said, the reason why they took so long to heal was because of the shards stuck in his skin, infused with dark matter. Enough to let this idea about having a cure grow in his mind. Enough to start hating his HANDS. His HANDS were bleeding. HIS HANDS were the source of his sudden self-hatred. Enough to start making him dislike metas. Not to a “let’s kill them all off!” extent. But a “Let’s make a cure for this thing that I’m responsible for (Me: ?? Caitlin: ??) and I’m not sure I like even anymore!”

It’s almost like, this negative cloud took over. Interesting. Isn’t that arguably the same thing that has happened to Orlin? To Grace?

Everyone is complaining that CIsco would never do this. That this is out of character.

That’s right. This isn’t Cisco.

Cisco in season 5 had very little agency. Remember? Agency. That thing he had in season 2. In season 3? Season 4?

Most of the decisions he’s made were through pressure or suggestion by other people. Caitlin and Cisco never had another conversation about the cure following 5x10 with the exception of 5x15 (but that wasn’t about him. Only Shay) until 5x22. Like at the end of 5x10 she offers to help make the cure with him because he wants it. And doesn’t question his feelings again. But then in between those episodes, everyone else is pressuring him to do things he isn’t comfortable or putting negative thoughts in his head.

Sherloque in 5x21, enhancing his insecurities, trying to convince the viewers Cisco never liked being Vibe. Ralph in 5x12, trying to get him to go out and meet people when he didn’t want to. Barry in Elseworlds, insisting on him using his powers. Cisco is bleeding after his vibes on the Monitor and only Kara asks if he’s okay. He says, very strained “No! No I’m not!!!” Nobody checked up on him after this?!?!??!?!?!!?!? (Also He GOT HIT BY A CAR AND JUST WALKED IT OFF?? —Whoops wrong essay). Ralph in 5x14 trying to get Cisco to use his Book of Ralph to impress Kamilla on his date. And Iris and Caitlin pushing Cisco to try again after he said he felt by the 53rd failed first date he shouldn’t bother trying.

Until 5x22 when Caitlin Injects him because he asked her too.

Also, to quote @manjehaal: What’s with him wanting to work on it alone all the time?

Anyway. All this to say.

Let’s go back to 5x03. They called it the death of vibe. But Cisco ended up getting his powers back in that episode. He lived. He was dampened but he survived. BUt. This isn’t about the death of Vibe. This is about the death of Cisco. The death of the part of him that loved vibe. His passion. His excitement. Him.

There was no reason to do that. WHY DOES THIS SHOW LOVE TO KILL CISCO SO MANY TIMES. 5 TIMES THEY’VE KILLED HIM NOW, BECAUSE YOU BETTER BELIEVE I’M INCLUDING THIS. 

And!!! And!!!! To make Cisco so badass in that final fight. It was hurtful. To see him so confident. So strong. To see him be Vibe. The Vibe we could have seen all along. 

If he doesn’t want to be Vibe. He doesn’t have to be (Also, Cisco was going to lose his powers with age anyway, something we learned through Breacher). It’s painful. But to take a cure. To make it sound like Cisco thinks he’s diseased. There was nothing to warrant that. Nothing. They just destroyed something that so many people love. People love Cisco. They love who he is. They love him as Cisco and they love him as Vibe.  They love him as as a latino hero. Watching them axe Vibe like that. Emphasizing its permanence. It was gutting. 

And I’m pissed.

[jewishaxelwalker]

Axel Walker, as a character, is a real mess. As he was pretty much only written by one person prior to 2011, and that one person was Geoff Johns, it’s no real wonder why. My complaints regarding every book Geoff Johns has ever worked on could fill a book roughly the size of the bible, but that’s neither here nor there right now.

Of all the new villains Johns created during his underwhelming run on the Flash, Axel is the one that’s lasted longest. Hunter Zoloman’s Zoom is a close second, but all bets were off with that guy once Johns was given the go-ahead to bring back Eobard Thawne, who hasn’t gone the hell away since 2009. But despite showing up regularly throughout his Flash run, making an appearance in his Teen Titans run, and just generally existing in Rogues’ Revenge, Blackest Night: The Flash, and the Brightest Day Flash series, Geoff Johns never actually bothered to give this kid a personality. No, really.

Axel has personality traits, most prevalent among them being annoying and young, but seeing as Johns was pushing 30 when he created Axel...the “youth” aspect of the character seemed overly exaggerated. For instance, here’s the panel that gives us the best guess as to how old he is:

“Dropped out of high school a few years ago” is a real shitty timeline. How many years is a few? Did he drop out as a freshman, a junior? Between how damn small he is (DC Encyclopedia cites him as being 5′7″, but I’ll eat my hat if he’s over 5′2″), the rest of the Rogues referring to him as “kid” all the time, and the way he kept being set up as one of Bart’s villains in the short time he was Kid Flash, I feel like we’re supposed to think of Axel as 16 or 17. However, Axel is shown being sent to Iron Heights on multiple occasions. That’s big boy prison, not a juvenile detention facility. So it’s entirely possible he’s 18 or 19. But we will never know.

So okay, back to those character traits. Early on, it was established that in addition to being young and annoying, Axel was also highly inventive, having created a bunch of tricks and gags that James Jesse, his predecessor, hadn’t used. He also utilized modern technology in a way that only someone written by a 30+ year old in 2005 could:

Is this even possible? I know about as much about computers as the next Amish person, that is to say, next to nothing, so I can’t tell you. But it’s possible according to Comic Book Hacking!

Anyway, when he first hit the scene, Axel was working with Blacksmith’s new Rogues. That didn’t last long, and he eventually jumped ship with Mark and Evan, who vouched for him with Len for whatever reason, and then Axel was a true and proper Rogue.

And here’s where it all goes a bit hinky.

During Crossfire (183-188 if you want exact issues), Axel had a glossy sheen of “golly, gee whiz!” about him. He was new to this whole villainy thing, eager to prove himself, and ready and willing to cause some chaos. Chaotic Neutral, if you will. The Identity Crisis tie-in issues (214-217) and Rogue War (220-225) introduced a weird little quirk that hadn’t been present before: sadism, and a need for said sadism to be corrected. 

In 214, Axel obliviously offers to whip up some poison gas to lace the flowers Len wants to send in sympathy to Ralph Dibny. Not knockout gas, or some other harmless gag, poison. We’d already seen that the other Rogues had a habit of insulting Axel in previous issues, but in 216, Len one-punches him to the floor for making fun of Digger when news of his death was reported.

The next panel shows that he is deadass unconscious. 220 gives us another fun panel of weird sadism that comes out of left field:

Now, where did this come from? I like to trace it back to a couple of panels from 188:

-words of advice from Weather Wizard, which are later parroted back in 221:

Again, it has previously been shown that of all the older Rogues, the one Axel is closest to, sees as a sort of mentor even, is Weather Wizard. Which brings me to Rogues’ Revenge.

Final Crisis: Rogues’ Revenge is possibly my least favorite comic of all time. It’s the one that paved the way for the return of Eobard Thawne (my least favorite villain) and killed off Thad Thawne (my absolute favorite villain)...but it was also the place where my favorite version of Axel was born.

Axel’s part in Rogue War ended when James beat the hell out of him, stole his mask and shoes, and tossed him in a dumpster. Between Rogue War and Rogues’ Revenge, Axel showed up in all of one comic, where he murdered a quartet of college students in the Detective Chimp: Helmet of Fate issue:

It’s one of those comics that really doesn’t make a ton of sense out of Axel’s characterization, what little there was to begin with. When we next see Axel in Rogues’ Revenge #1, he’s put together his own little gang. While his Trickster gang dresses like him, Axel is the only one who actually uses tricks, the other guys use guns. They’re disposed of, and Axel is folded back in with the Rogues. After Len beats him up a bit, of course:

But what else is new, right? After a whole rigamarole about the Rogues going to Gambi’s workshop to give their costumes back, but they find him beat all to hell by a group calling themselves the New Rogues, who’d also kidnapped Len’s father. The Rogues find them. There’s a fight. And then, this:

Followed very closely by this:

And quite literally immediately after, this:

And this is it. This is my favorite version of Axel, born from what might be the shittiest comic of all time. My favorite version of Axel is the underutilized “scared rabbit covering it all up with false bravado” version, which we would now see in everything following this issue, up until the New 52. After Rogues’ Revenge, Axel’s speaking panels were cut to practically nothing. He lurked in the background of scenes, helped out, had a one-liner or two, but did Johns ever again attempt to give him any kind of depth? Nope. All his character development from this point on would come from Scott Kolins:

This page baffled me for the longest time, when it came out. Len has just had Mick kill his father for him. Third panel, Axel’s expression is very neutral, not giving away anything. Fifth panel, peeking out from behind Len, his expression borders on worry, but by panel six right next to it, he’s schooled himself back to neutrality. Then we get this page:

“Us”, Axel says. As if he actually did any murdering of his own. That’s why the past sadistic streak and the Detective Chimp issue never sat well with me. Where did these traits spring from? I know I said earlier that the whole “no conscience” thing might be to blame, but it was never consistent. 

Scroll back up. Look at those facial expressions. Kolins might draw Len craggier than a mountain peak, but his Axel is definitely the most expressive. Look at the page with Mark causing faux-Abra Kadabra to explode. Look at that bottom-right panel. You can literally see him being terrified of the people he’s with, finally understanding exactly what they’re capable of, and realizing that he’s in too deep to get out unharmed. But at the same time…he doesn’t want out, because these guys are all Dad now. He idolizes them and he fears them. So he digs deep for the set of balls that got him into Blacksmith’s circuit, and uses the fact that none of the others have really tried to get to know him to his advantage. Bad jokes, ignorance, bratting it up…hiding his fear. After the page above, Axel spends the rest of Rogues’ Revenge making some of the silliest expressions he ever has in a comic when he’s in focus, but out of focus, he’s all frowns and neutral faces. He does end up aiding in Inertia’s murder...somehow

Seriously, what the hell is he shooting at him, a spring? It’s coiled too loosely to choke him, and though the shot of Thad’s corpse shows it still wrapped around his throat, there’s no bruising there like on his face and body.

The next place Axel, or the Rogues for that matter, show up is in Blackest Night: Flash, another Johns disaster. There, he’s the comedic relief from start to finish. He’s not particularly interested in fighting zombies, so his expressions tend to range from a very fake-looking full-face grin to straight up terror:

And of course, the pit. I’ve got a whole other laundry list of ways comics failed Owen Mercer, but that’s not for here. When the horribly out of character Captain Cold confronts the even more horribly out of character Owen about his actions in trying to bring back his father, it’s bad. But is it “copying every line and forehead wrinkle from Mark’s face onto Axel’s face” bad?

Bam. After Blackest Night, the Rogues would show up only once more before Flashpoint, in a couple of issues of the Brightest Day Flash series. Here, he actually has a few panels of dialogue and is actually shown to be doing things for a change. 

One of his only panels worth mentioning, though, is this one from issue 6:

So...if Axel is a millennial, then that means he was born between 1981 and 1997, making him at most 29 and at least 13 back in 2010. Release this kid’s age, DC. The world wants to know.

So. You’d think a character study on a Trickster would end with a bang, but I don’t really think it can. Axel is honestly a pretty weak character, whose goals and motivations are either bland or entirely nonexistent. We never got a real backstory for him other than a few thoughtboxes in the Flash 1/2 issue, we never got to see how he’d blossom under a competent writer pre-New 52, his entire existence seemed to be one of those famous Johns dropped plots. He feels like he should have a bigger role than he does, and is in fact the legacy Rogue with the least number of pre-New 52 appearances. Which is ironic, because he’s the only legacy Rogue that escaped erasure with the rest of the old universe. His few appearances in the New 52 Flash title, the Rebirth Flash title, and non-canon books like Injustice have given him more of a character than all of his time under Johns, and he’s better off for it. Except for the Injustice universe, where he’s dead.

I guess all I can say is, the kid was interesting enough to deserve better, but it took his old universe being wiped out and replaced for him to get it. Bummer.

[robininthelabyrinth]

Legends Recap

Because while I was determined not to (I was three episodes behind!), sometimes a girl's just got to scream into the void: "HOW DO THESE WRITERS KEEP THEIR JOBS?"

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Raiders of the Lost Art: Wow, I don’t care about Rip. Also, you had the fucking spear of destiny through all of season 1? Fucking incompetent.

I’ve seen the Mick scene before. *hugs Mick*

…Nate is such an annoying frat boy. 3AM blasting bad music? In a small space near other people’s sleeping quarters? And just “oh, yeah, sorry, I needed to do a thing” as an explanation? We have a name for those people: assholes.

Again: Indiana Jones is an archeologist. Not a historian.

“Anyone would have made the call to save Grey!” “Would Rip?” Answer: no, because Rip doesn’t care about the team. Remember how he did that repeatedly last season?  Why is this show trying to push Sara’s weird (and out of nowhere) crush on Rip?

I have literally no interest in Rip’s issues. Zero.

Fear of giant toads, somehow related to Mick’s mother (reference to “mommy talk”). Dragon!Mick confirmed?

Mick’s expression of “you’ve got to be kidding me” is going to be the highlight of this episode, I can tell.

I’m pleased they remember that Mick can knock someone out without harming them. I’m less pleased that they seem to have forgotten that Sara can do the same?

“Oh now, our way out is block! Pity we didn’t bring Jax, so that we could literally Firestorm fly our way out! That would have made sense, but cost precious CGI money!”

Mick’s tradition of carrying people continues.

Oh god, this episode’s only halfway over. Make it stop.

Goody, Stein insulting Mick to his face. Also, emotional problems leading to hallucinations are a serious problem??? Even if it’s just “emotions”, there are hallucinations?

NOTE TO AUDIENCE: Not having 4 PhDs or a history degree = total inability to read words!

NOTE TO AUDIENCE: Not being an inventor or a historian makes you useless!

Also, apparently getting mugged once can cause a change of career after dropping money and time into it.

Why did they move the chair into Mick’s room? HOW did they? (Why were we, the audience, deprived of the glorious scene of Mick and Stein hauling it down the hallway)

Also, Mick has been interpreting Stein’s academic technobabble without a problem the whole episode, and yet, everyone on board thinks he’s stupid…

I’m incredibly pissed at this episode for raising hopes of Len and then destroying them. Both for Mick, and for the audience.

I’m also not here for the Rip/Sara thing. Also the fact that this show seems to assume people will be super disbelieving despite being on a goddamn spaceship.

Oh, my bby! Mick’s head is literally SLICED OPEN in that scene! WTF?

I get all the Star Wars references, I just…don’t care…

George Lucas is holding the spear of destiny, which makes him a great director…or, at least, married to one. He’s a good tech guy, at least.

In which the Guy Who Has Never Been In A Fight Decides Not To Run From Evil Bad Guys Because…Plot.

Mick’s little smile when he says “ghost” and the heartbreak after it is just…unnecessary. Also, wtf, Stein, hallucinations are not a usual response to grief, okay?

Ugh.

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Legion of Doom:

Damien’s intro is more interesting than 95% of the normal Legends’.

Okay, why is Merlyn having Feelings about Darkh dying? (Also, wouldn’t removing Darkh from the timeline mean that that timeline no longer happens? Why do G. Lucas’ ~~feelings~~ about filmmaking have an immediate impact but literally removing the person who doesn’t go on to do any of the shit he later does not?)

Fucking writers. This could be such a good show if they cared even a LITTLE.

I do enjoy the sheer bitchiness of the bad guys. Pity they’re Nazis. Also, do we need all the scenes of tortures?

ALSO: why the hell would his daughter help with a mystical artifact? Like, I see that she does because of plot, but couldn't they have put any effort into explaining why her specialty is required? Also, why does she have a radiation detector in her pocket when she goes to get coffee?

Bad guys: bitch-bitch-bitch.

Bad guys: bitch about each other.

Bad guys: yet MORE bitching!

Bad guys: worst bank robbers ever?

Mick’s difficulty thinking of the word is adorable. And yeah, she deserved to know. Everyone acting super weird about her, and she doesn’t know why? She would have wanted to know. It was clearly deliberate, too (I love how he goes to “asphyxiation”!)

Bad guys: going back to bitching. With swords! (See, I’d like them, but: Nazis.)

Stein is moping because Mick “spilled the beans” on a secret he shouldn’t be keeping. So sad.

Both sides figure out Eobard, finally. Also, can’t Eo just phase out through the wall?

Speedster: not…use…speed…force? I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand?

Eo’s terror face is hilarious. Also, did everyone just forget about phasing?

Stein’s family drama, yeah, yeah.  Stein: Can’t you stay? Lily: No, the budget can’t afford another regular. I mean, I have protein-folding to be doing instead of LITERAL time travel with future science! Because that’s totally how normal people/scientists make decisions!

--------------

Turncoat:

Mick’s intro is lovely.

Interesting mention about “time travel” being fun – I assume not all the memories are back in place. That, or being a Time Master is even more dull than I’d previously imagined.

I’m in for Gideon killing everybody! *notes down fic idea*

Go Mick! Use your skills! (Ray deserves all the arm twisting.)

Nate and Amaya – boring. And seriously, with the ‘falling into his arms’ thing?

Good lord, someone actually makes a plan that includes the line “and then if there’s trouble, Firestorm”? I thought I’d never see the day.

(Ray should totally go as a toy. And Ray, stop making faces at Mick – you’ve been a dick to him all season, only fair he gets some licks back in.)

“Oh you’re married to a black woman! Don’t you know we were racist back then!” says the man in late 18th century New Jersey, where rich black women could still vote. (No, really, in a handful of states black women could vote as long as they owned property. This was one of the rights that was lost when the US got itself a federal government. But the past was always racist! because we didn't make this joke enough when Kendra and Ray were dating!)

Ray’s “Mer-ry Christmas!” is amusing.

Mick identifies the problem faster than anyone else, as usual. Mick disapproves of Rip’s behavior – and Rip’s attempt to compare the two of them. For shame, Rip; as usual, thinking the worst of Mick.

“And Rory.” “That was implied.” Yeah, sure.  At least Jax gets next Captain after Sara goes! First time I’ve seen any reference to Jax’s leadership skills in…the entire series…

Really. Twice. That doesn’t make it funny.

“I’ll bet a hundred yous you’re wrong” = Mick is the best. Georgie isn’t wrong about there being rules of war, but Mick is still the best.

Jax. Jax. I love you, but there is a DIFFERENCE between “wow, I’m in charge of a handful of people and need to make decisions” and “I’m going to do a potentially life threatening activity involving literally digging into my friend’s stomach (which is filled with organs that, if nicked, could cause sepsis and death) with a knife, and I’m going to do it without a guide or any experience”. Stein wins this one hands down.

Okay, let me just be clear: somehow, Amaya has been on this ship for months and months and never heard the term ‘dating’ and is instead using ‘courting’, which is the most formal of formal terms used in the past. Because obviously a man – to use old-fashiony language like this show wants to – “called on” or “stepped out with” a woman a few times before officially declaring a courtship. Because the past didn’t have one-night stands, because people only developed libidos around the time of the internet. SERIOUSLY SHOW? People have been fucking for fun since forever. The whole “sexual revolution” thing was a revolution because women could have sex for fun WITHOUT RISK OF PREGNANCY.

Before then, they still had sex, they used what contraceptives they had and hoped for the best. There’s a reason shotgun weddings were a thing. And why

And I was told they went with the “huddling for warming -> sex” thing, I knew it was coming, it’s just…disappointing. Boring.

Jax Home Alone looks like it’s going to be fun.

Rip – the most ahistorical haircut, or the most ahistorical haircut? Ugly, too.

Georgie: “Don’t punish Mick! He’s not guilty!” Mick: “You bet your ass I am! Possibly not at the moment, but of many other things! And also, just generally speaking!”

Still bored with Nate/Amaya.

Jax Home Alone is not anywhere near as fun as I was hoping. Boo.

Mick: So I’m getting you out of here. George: No. Mick: *tries insults* *it’s not very effective* George: *stirring speech* Mick: *stirring speech* *it’s super-effective!* George: …

“Oh, no, what about George Washington and Rory!” says the person happily having sex and napping instead literally five minutes before.

Awwwww, Ratigan! That is some terrible CGI.

Why are they selling the Rip/Sara? It’s icky. (This is me: totally believing that Sara’s dead. Really. Totally. Even for five seconds.)

First, the historical critique: they shouldn’t ALL be standing around at a hanging with primed guns, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Second: I don’t even care this is glorious. Mick saves everyone! Mick tackles four people! George uses his superior height!

Also, if Mick convinced him early in the evening, then they literally spent all night talking.

First instance of Georgie-boy! (though poor Mick is still suicidal, oh dear)

George: …yeah, Americans out, stage left, pursued by bear.

Jax, Jax, baby, just shoot him in the kneecap. What the hell is with these heroes? Sara’s back and decides to use Christmas against everyone because…no, I have no idea why. Is it just me or does it feel like these episodes are massively out of order?

Awwww, Georgie and Mick drinking together <3 Mick and the criminal justice system! And then they hug! Mick finally has a good friend!

“Rebel spirit, steadfastness, crass yet effective use of language, you’re the best of what our new nation can be” – Mick is now officially embarrassed and hiding. Man, if I hadn’t already written that Barry/Mick fic, I would now.

Sara and Jax bro-ship is perfectly okay. More of that.

Mick in a hat! Mick with his new rat! <3 Mick kissing his new rat!

“We have nothing to celebrate – including Mick getting a statute!” – why, guys, why?

(Mick’s face of “yeah I still got nothing” whenever the statute is mentioned is adorable)

“Because the League may have everything – smarts, beauty, cunning, charisma…wait, where was I going with this?”