#consequences of my actions instead mad on principle and so it always feels particularly like arguing about nothing bc nothing actually happ

[torschlusspanikattack]

re: prev tags

saw the tags before i saw who put it on my dash and both immediately agreed and knew it was cauchy and then i checked and was right

“The Driver” by Jordan Bolton

My first book ‘Blue Sky Through the Window of a Moving Car’ is out now! Order it here - https://smarturl.it/BlueSky

[kendrixtermina]

Can you please do a type comparison between ENFJ and ESFP?

That’s a broad request b/c there’s a lot to be said about both types but I’ll try my best.  #ThereWasAnAttempt

If you wanted something else  or more specific, (like one of those function-by-function comparisions) tell me so. 

Similarities: 

On the simplest level, they’re both extroverts and feelers; also, they share Ni and Se as valued functions & thus some of the traits & behaviors that come with them, though in the case of the ESFP ni is in the inferior position, so the Ni traits might be simple, blunt or sporadic in their manifestation.

Roughly speaking, both will present as a sociable, enterprising individual involved in lots of activities, very much a people person and, in the best case, full of generosity & great advice, though they might also be somewhat dramatic. 

Also, both types tend to be very much “people people” & can be very extroverted extroverts, though more ambiverted individuals also happen. (Generally it’s more likely for ESFPs to be  whereas ENFJs may deal a lot with a lot of people but also take time for contemplation. )

Pll whose valued functions include the Ni/Se Axis have  a variety of general things in common, for example:

Think in images or often feel that not everything can be expressed in words (At least by comparision)

Are motivated rather than dissuaded by environments in which there’s some competition (though as feelers they’d probably like it to be friendly/ not overly disharmonious)

Easily jump into “alert mode” but need to actively chose to enter “chill mode” ENFJs in particular can tend to overextend themselves or have a hard time slowing down & taking a moment to chill. Se doms meanwhile often have more mental energy than they know what to do with & are more likely to have a need to burn it off through activity, or feel stress from a situation where they’re contrained & have to be still.  Indeed, their idea of “fun” may involve being in an alert state. Not necessarily the stereotypical travel or extreme sports tho, just something that involves being active or at least ready to react.

more drawn to gritty & realistic than cozy & fairytale.

Memories of the past are structured as conclusions/ summaries. “This happened, that happened etc..” as opposed to the more “cause & effect” style of Si & Ne: “There was X detail, and because of that Y happened” in which comparision with the past is explicitly references in comparision. Ni sees events in time less as distinct stages that can be compared & more as a flowing process. When it’s over, it’s the process that remains not the mental pictures of the stages. (Sorry if this is diffuse I can’t exactly mind-read the nearest NJ or SP to get a more concrete idea.)

Tend to buy new clothes frequently (even modest individuals who don’t have fashion as a hobby - SJs and NPs will often wear their stuff until it falls apart & then replace it) & like clothes that catch their attention

get premonitions or “gut feelings”. Of course there’s a sliding scale here (More Ni -> more specific & sophisticated conclusions; More Se -> more details to pick up & extrapolate from & more in touch with instincts) 

On the subject of Si ENJs and ESPs are the types where it’s the least present as the opposing or PolR function (basically, shadow functions come in varying degrees of uselessness and these are the most useless)

Both may balk at the idea of bowing to established tradition & grow frustrated with repetition & may not see what’s fun or worthwhile about static, quiet or slow-paced activities. 

There’s a distinction tho - The ESFP may not be too big on quiet focussed activity, but while they might choose to disregard them & be better at tuning  out discomfort, they very much know where their physical limits are, whereas an ENFJ may be liable to leave the house in garish clashing clothes despite caring a lot about presentation, burn themselves out & have a hard time functioning with a headache. 

Besides, they are some commonalities to all ExFx types (ie, these would also apply to ENFP and ESFJ) - they are expressive, most sociable in informal contact & approach comminication as a means to react to life in the present moment & express their current feelings. 

Differences: 

While these two types share some functions, there’s also some that they don’t share. The most glaring one would be Fi, which, for the ESFP is among their very strongest right there in the ego block, but for them ENFJs is in the Opposing slot (ie, it’s basically an especially useless shadow function)

Sure, it may be easier to tell a Fi dominant from a FJ (again b/c of a very pronounced absence) but even so, for an ESFP, Fi is the primary judging function - the main thing that gets used to make decisions. For the ENFJ that’s Fe. 

So a lot of the differences boil down to Fe vs Fi especially in terms of what they sound like as conscious reasoning. Both use raw emotional reactions as “building blocks” but the structure of the processing is different: 

If you ask “Hey ENFJ, why did you do that?” or “Explain your opinion on X” You’ll hear things like a lot of general value judgements like  “This is bad, that is important, that is helpful, that is harmful” etc.  It gives a judgement on an action, wether it can be allowed or not in a given context. 

Now ask ESFP why they did the thing or what they think about that action - What you’ll likely hear is ultimately also something like a value judgement, but more… not necessarily self-referential or personalized but biographical in the sense that it exists in a larger framework of a person, society or relationship. “This is important to me!” “The person deserves this.” “ “

A Fe user will say things like: “This is a bad thing to do, they should cut it out.” “If someone has been a loyal friend, you should not treat them with suspicion.” (Type of Situation -> Appropiate thing to do) whereas the Fi user will put in more in terms of “They need to learn that this is not okay” or “In friendships, trust is important.” (Specific Context -> appropiate thing to do)

If you ask a Fe dominant  why a bad thing is bad, they might get offended: “Are you saying it’s good? Clearly it made people upset! Do you not care?” After all, why would you be discussing it if not to voice a different judgement? If they don’t get mad, they’ll refer you to Si (”It disturbed the peace and besides it’s just not done”) or Ni (”It caused bad consequences, and besides [philosophical rant]”) depending on the type of Fe dom you’re dealing with. 

Whereas the Fi position would be “So it made people upset. But why?” What’s going on in the upset people that produced the reaction & was it justified? Just like Ti can be sceptical with new info & chew it over/ look at all the info for themselves before chosing to accept it, Fi users can be “sceptics” over emotional displays: If they believe you’re faking it you’ll get no sympathy and if the character arc of a movie didn’t seem believable to them, they won’t cry. 

Sometimes, the Fi user will even tell you “why”, say, a bad thing is bad, citing an experience or a driving principle. Of course, ultimately the Fi reasoning, too, is based on an immediate emotional reaction somewhere, it just takes longer to hit the “ground rock” - and when you do, it’s rarely up for debate. When you get to that point, your Fi friend will typically try to extricate themselves from the topic, “agree to disagree”, or get mad & accuse you of immorality. 

The Fi user won’t debate because they know what their feeling is, whereas the Fe user will assume you’re debating them because it’s not about what you feel or believe in a specific context but wether a bad action can be allowed at all. 

There’s also the difference often described as “objective vs. subjective” but IMHO better described as intrinsinc vs. extrinsic if you’ve read some of Jung’s original writings. 

In extroverted functions, the motivation/focus comes from the object itself: You pay attention to something because it is there. With the introvertes functions, it comes from inside: You pay attention to something because you’re interested in it, or because it catches your attention. 

The distinction is particularly easy to see with the T functions: Ti users pay attention to things because they’re interested in them. A given TP could know everything about their hobby but nothing about what they ought to know for next week’s math test or to keep up with the next big thing in pop culture. Meanwhile, Te users pay attention to things because they’re there - but because a lot of things “are there”, they have to prioritize - In effect, they pay attention to relevant things. Cause & Effect relations with big effects: What needs to be done first, what’s most important? So they’re drawn to topics & jobs that have a huge impact.  

Two Te users, even within the same society, may have different ideas about what’s relevant, but relevancy is seen as an attribute of the object. The object is where the thought starts. Same with the N functions: A Ne user looks at a painting of a Rose & thinks: “Roses can mean purity, love or beauty.” Maybe that particular person also associates Roses with their girlfriend, has some kooky inside joke going on (”Draw a lettuce. Paint it red”) or has a theory that this painter always uses Roses to mean purity. But the thought starts with the object: The Rose, or the concept of Rose as that Ne user perceives it - they build a mental network with “Rose” at the center & other concept around it. Now, picture a Ni user who has a thing about The Evils Of Capitalism & often thinks about it. They hear a story about injustice in the world, and think, “This is exactly why capitalism is evil!” - the story becomes a new node in their mental network, they relate it to a concept instead of the other way around. The thought starts with ‘Capitalism’ and it is in the center of the mental web. 

So what does this mean for Feeling? 

Again, Fe pays attention to a feeling because it’s there: Someone you like is happy so you share in their hapiness. Someone is upset so something needs to be done about it. As for Fi, that’s where the above mentioned “feelings-scepticism” comes from: Wether they’ll pay attention to it or not is something they have to decide based on wether it’s a justified reaction.

There’s tons of post calling one function the empathetic one & the other fake or selfish but the truth is that - For a Fe user, empathy is “I see you emoting & have an appropiate kind of reaction to your sadness” whereas for a Fi user it is “I mentally reconstruct your sad reaction in my head.” That’s also why Fi users are so big on being “understood”. If you’re reacting to the wrong thing/ idea of what they’re experiencing, you’re not doing “emphathy” at all.  

Meanwhile to a FJ, someone emoting merits a reaction, be it support or condemnation - they give most reactions in their vincinity weight to the point that they can end up calling the “correctness” of their own inner feelings into doubt if everyone around them reacts differently; Also there’s the risk of unwarranted reactions.  - meanwhile a FP is technically limited by their skill at “reconstructing” because they use their own experience repertoire. But it’s not about being fixated upon themselves,  it’s kinda like a math professor who only lets you use theorems once you can prove them yourself or having to learn a language before you can read it. The end result can still be sorta bratty because wether they can “reconstruct” something essentially dictates wether they’ll notice it or accept it as real. 

It’s kind of like two different alghoriths for the same problem in which one’s faster but the other uses less space, or a tradeof between false positive & false negative rate - in the best case, both Fi and Fe result in the person doing the right thing & getting along with whover they wish to socialize with. 

But when they go wrong they produce different “artifacts”. 

Hence why an immature FP can be short-sighted and an immature FJ can be meddlesome, but both can be really nice people given some maturity and healthy self-awareness.

Beyond the feeling function itself there’s also it’s grouping/blocking, the perceiving function that it cooperates with. In the ENFJ’s case, Fe “works” in tandem with intuition, for the ESFP, it works with sensing. 

One consequence is that the ENFJ is gonna conceptualize those value judgements - like, they will actually explicitly frame their thoughts as ‘deliberations on ethics’ in an everyday situation & look for opportunities to generalize & find patterns. Meanwhile, with a xSFx the value judgements are more implicit & tied to observations and opportunities for taking action. 

NF: “Usually I can somewhat tell what people are feeling, but not with this person. Maybe he’s all closed off because he feels uneasy in this place? I wonder what I can do to help in situations like this… ” 

SF: “This guy seems kind of aloof. He’s standing in that corner all by himself and I didn’t see him talking to any other people -  is he’s okay? I wonder if I should talk to him.” 

Other Considerations (Enneagram Corellations): 

Enneagram wise, ENFJs are usually somewhere in the heart center with 2 being the most common but 3 and 4 also being fairly frequent (4s are usually 4w3 and there is the odd 1w2 but, it’s roughly that same neighborhood) and it’s those heart center ENFJs that the common perceptions are based on. 

7w6/ 6w7 ENFJs are more uncommon, but when they do happen they’re quite distinct & more likely to be mistaken for xNFPs than anything else.  Goethe (the German poet) is a famous example of a 7 ENFJ. They’re often people who are learned & contemplative to but also very passionate, vibrant and  gifted for evoking feeling in others & the Ni may come out as idealism. 

They embody more the  “expressive, dramatic, fervent, emotional roller-coaster” side of Fe, whereas with the heart-center folks you’ll see more of the “social facade, ethical judgemets, people.pleasing, influential“ sides of it. The 2/3/4s will still be dramatic & the 7s will still have strong opinions about ethics & society but there’s a difference in emphasis. 

By contrast, 7 is the most common enneagram type for ESFPs and a lot of the common stereotypes (either carefree & fun-loving or showy and materialistic) are based on 7s. Though they can carry hidden sorrow or anxiety, 7s tend to be  energetic, upbeat optimists. 

A cheerful “extrovert classic” 7 is probably ESFP rather than ENFJ unless something about them screams “intuitive!” & even the ENFP is more likely.

ESFPs who are not 7s  are sometimes a lot more serious, edgy & dramatic, much like other high Fi users and/or their fellow beta quadra types (ISFPs, INTJs and ENTJs) and can even be a tad competitive & territorial. (like ESTPs but driven by passion instead of cunning - these folks may perhaps not fit the stereotypes of P types but they’ll nonetheless act from internal motivations. Their competitiveness will be focussed on mastery of specific activities, social status and “winning” as well as their passion for the activity & its personal meaning for them rather than objective external goals. (also, these folks are often the most sensor-y sensors around, usually practical, hardy, perceptive, action-oriented & mostly concerned with day-to-day concerns - The only way you could mistake one of these for an intuitive if you’re an intuitive, who is also a teenager, and the ESFP in question is the main character of your favorite book.)

ESFPs are the Fi type most likely to be 2s, but that’s more likely to manifest as them simply being, at best, nice & generous & big on wanting to be loved and at worst kinda dramatic & bitchy/demanding than an outright martyr, hero- or superiority complex simply because developing one requires conceptualizing & generalization - Say, we have two immature type 2s, one of either mbti type.  Betty the bitchy ESFP 2 may not realize she’s contributing to her breakups or that they’re a pattern, instead focussing on what jerks the individual partners were (black & white judgements not uncommon immature or conceited Fi users), whereas Nancy the nasty ENFJ 2 (or 4 for that matter) will be well aware of the pattern but interpret it as “No one realizes how I only do what’s best for them/ that I’m right and they’re wrong” (Seeing one’s conclusion/extrapolation as the only possible truth or outcome, not uncommon of conceited or immature Ni users)

Then, hopefully, both develop some self-awareness & become mature adults or something.