I think -- and this "I think" is very much an "I might well be wrong" disclaimer -- that it's helpful here to look at "Zionism" as an umbrella term, or the name of a category, rather than a single ideology, even if it can be summarized in one line like "Jewish national self-determination in their historic homeland".
(The first analogy that comes to mind is the well-known "Feminism is the radical belief that woman are people": a fantastic one-line description, but building it into a set of principles or plan of action has enormous space for disagreements, even quite fundamental ones.)
There are a lot of Zionisms. Some of the early ones even looked seriously at territory that wasn't anywhere near the historic Land of Israel -- the Uganda plan is probably the best-known one -- so that even the "in their historic homeland" part wasn't necessarily part of the bedrock. Theodor Herzl, considered the founder of the modern Zionist movement (and who at one point considered the Argentina as a possible alternative to Ottoman Palestine), wrote about a secular and socialist utopia, with seven stars on its flag for a seven-hour working day.
The form of contemporary Zionism that takes a hard, theocratic, xenophobic, authoritarian, aggressive, militaristic, neo-fascist, ethnic-cleansing... well, basically all the nastiest things you can think of a political movement standing for... line, is Kahanism, which had no official presence in the Israeli government (its original political form, the Kach party, was proscribed in the 80s shortly after its founding when Israel's supreme court held that a party that incited racism and promised to do away with democracy could not, constitutionally, run for office) until a couple of years ago, when the egregious Netanyahu reached even further right than he'd ever reached before in an effort to shore up his support and brought the ideological heirs of Kahane into his government.
I'd like to say here that a lot of people say "Zionism" when they mean "Kahanism", but unfortunately in most cases there isn't even that much nuance; I get the impression that Tumblr is full of people who wouldn't be interested in learning the distinction and would not only deny that such a distinction exists but accuse anyone who tried to explain it of being a genocidal fascist themselves. :/
But there a lot of different Zionisms. Hell, there are an awful lot of Israelis who disagree very strongly with the version promoted by Netanyahu and Itamar Ben-Gvir (his Kahanist security minister and possibly the single most unpleasant person in the entire current situation). One of the main incentives for Bibi to prolong the war is that it keeps him in power; mass protests against his interference in the judiciary were mounting before October 7 and the subsequent horrors.
Is Kahanism or something like it a necessary result of Zionism? Quite possibly. Even at the beginning of the independence struggle of modern Israel there were movements and militias that we would easily recognize as supremacist or fascist. But they weren't the only ones, and they weren't a majority, and they exist today as part -- the worst part, by most standards -- of a wide spectrum of views, and part of the reason for the far-right's political dominance in Israel is the far-right's own efforts to bend and subvert democratic institutions to keep itself there.
(deleted: a couple paragraphs about extremists using and causing violence to keep themselves relevant/in power, which was mostly very obvious stuff and turned into an amateurish and disorganized history essay)
Trumpism or something like it was probably inevitable in the United States. (It has obvious roots in the militia movement and Gingrich radicalization of the early-mid 1990s, and of course farther and farther back beyond that for as long as one can stomach tracing it; don't get me started on the fucking Confederates)
That it succeeded and rose to power, however, seems to me very contingent; something like that was bound to happen, but the day after Election Day 2016 had a dog-caught-the-car feeling: they hadn't actually expected to win! What the hell do we do now? (the answer of course being to burn the country down for the insurance money while putting the worst possible people in charge of everything)
And militant and brutal ethnonationalism with no qualms about how it treats "The Enemy" was probably inevitable in Israel, but here too I think it wasn't at all inevitable that it came to power and stayed there for so long. Basically, a lot of shit had to go wrong in the 1990s-early 2000s for things to get as bad as they've eventually gotten, y'know?
I think a lot of the pushback or stonewalling you're running into is with people who've been frayed and left hypersensitive from months of commenters who assume that "Zionism" is one, monolithic Thing (which is also inherently ontologically Evil, which is itself The Enemy which it is the duty of all Good People to fight). I have seen Jewish and Israeli bloggers talking about Zionism's history and philosophy and implications in very much a detailed, complex, "hell no for thing x, but we can push x off to the side while working on y and then deal with it once y is achieved" way -- but mostly just among themselves*, with people who have, if not the direct experience, then at least the vocab, and whose good faith they feel able to assume. My read is that you're running into people who aren't willing to assume anybody's good faith anymore because of the sheer volume of bad faith they get, from every direction. I feel like (and it's only a feeling) at this point anybody left who can discuss this stuff is going to be very, very hesitant about discussing it at all, and tragically I don't think I can blame them.
Still wildly admire your quest for answers and willingness to talk, though, and earnestly hope you can carry on and find answers and a point of view that seems right to you! <3
* which as an outsider I have not contributed to, but read with interest, and some people I agree with and some I don't, you know how it goes
This is exactly the kind of answer I was actually looking for with that post.
You're probably right that what I thought "Zionism" meant was closer to what's actually "Kahanism." Some of that might be internet osmosis, but some of it's probably that Zion is a specific name, and every time I've personally heard said name it's been, like, in the Psalms. This land is special, this land is promised, this land is ours.
So I'd react differently instinctively to "my project is to make a country for these refugees" than to "my project is to recreate Zion."
Recreating Zion sounds almost by default like there's at least dollops of exclusion mixed in there that you've gotta take back out.
And it DOES sound to me like some of the early Zionists, at the very least, DID see themselves as doing something like recreating Zion. "A land without a people for a people without a land" seems like you have to at the very least be pretending VERY HARD that the people who are already there aren't. That... SOUNDS like terra nullius, for all that people say analogies shouldn't be drawn.
"If we're not in Zion nobody real is in Zion" is what THAT sounds like.
So yeah, it's definitely my HOPE that as time has gone by, that colonialist rationale has become distasteful in the same way it's distasteful for me to hear someone talking about terra nulluis.
But... eh. On the one hand, I don't wand to cite that viedo someone sent me, as i'm SURE it's from a biases source since its aim is to prove to people that Israel's founding is unavoidably racist. But on the other hand I kind of do still want to anyway, even knowing that, because the footage of people screaming "We will kill you all, all of you, one by one, fucking Muslims!" *is*, from what I gather, real.
Which implies that Israeli nationalism IS a thing, and the question isn't "is it a thing" but "is it common or uncommon."
Which I'm pretty sure is what animated me to say "so is that crap part of Zionism, or isn't it? If it is, then that implies that those of us who think the Jews *should* have a land to go to should be not Zionist but post-Zionist, whatever that might turn out to be."
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Danny, the Young Justice member snippet nr 1
these snippets aren't connected in anyway but just some little scenes I came up with, everyone is welcome to build up on them if they want to
unrelated snippet nr 2, unrelated snippet nr 3(?)
“Thank you, young man,” elderly man, a civilian, said to Phantom, squeezing his shoulder when the boy transported him away from the battle into an established safe zone. Hero froze for a moment, blinking rapidly.
“You’re… welcome?” he squeaked and flew back to fight the first chance he got, still dazed.
He was lost in thought the whole time he worked after that, rescuing some teen girls too curious, brave and stupid to run away on their own when they still had a chance. If Kid Flash didn’t warn him, one of the goons would land a really nasty hit, which should not have happened. Phantom had one of the best combat spatial awareness out of all of them. He couldn’t always react in time, but it almost never escaped him that an attack was coming.
Something was wrong. Really wrong.
That was why, as soon as the fight was over, Kaldur approached his teammate. He saw Robin doing the same.
Phantom, to give him credit where credit is due, didn’t fly away from the scene first given chance like always. Instead he sat in the space where they were transporting civilians, hand on his right shoulder, unseeing eyes locked on some cracks in the pavement. His mouth was moving without making a sound. He was covered in dust, like all of them.
“Phantom,” Kaldur asked through Mindlink “are you injured?”
Ghost flinched and turned his head, giving the leader a shaky smile. His eyes were still distant.
“Yeah, no, I’m alright. Sorry I was so out of it. Thanks for the rescue Wally, "the boy replied but his eyes slowly turned back to where he was staring before. Other than that, he hadn't moved.
“Phantom, what’s wrong?” Robin tried, both out loud and through Mindlink. Now the whole Team was concerned.
“It's nothing, really,” Phantom answered with a distant tone.“ Just… something weird happen and I need a moment to wrap my head around it”
“What was it?” Artemis asked bluntly before Conner did the Mindlink equivalent of smack on the back of a head. It was a bit weird to see Conner as the sensitive one. Black Canary was doing a great job with helping him over his anger.
“Let him process it on his own before you demand answers,” he growled.
“Adult civilian thanked me,” the ghost mumbled with awe at the same time. For a moment everyone froze in muted shock.
This explained so much while being so confusing. Yes, civilians tended to do it. It felt great. It didn’t warrant such an intense reaction.
“That's nice,” M’gann sent carefully after a long moment.
“Mhm… Really nice”
Kaldur slowly put a hand on the arm Phantom wasn’t holding, to help ground him a bit. Despite his efforts, the ghost flinched under his touch.
“We need to go to a bioship and back to the Mountain. You should probably come with us”
He expected a fight, he had various ideas how to convince younger boy but instead he heard quiet, small “Sure”
Ghost didn’t move for a long moment.
“Phantom?” Robin asked and again, the response was a violent flinch.
“Sorry, sorry. I know it’s dumb I’m just-” he transmitted some sort of lowering melody that Kaldur didn’t know “-right now”
“Did you just send Windows XP shutting down noise?!” Wally yelled, exasperated.
“He did,” Robin snorted. Artemis laughed from one of the surrounding rooftops.
Phantom’s lips twitched with a minimal smile but it disappeared before it fully set. His brows furrowed as he stood up, shrugging Kaldur’s hand off in the process.
“Is this publicly known that I’m a ghost? Like, outside Amity? Or do people just assume I’m a meta?”
“Around 3% of discourse about you is ‘alive or not’-”Robin stated after few seconds of searching n his wrist computer “-with people saying stuff like ‘I’ve seen him breathe’ but everyone else responds with some variation of ‘Are you really going to tell kid how he’s supposed to cope with being dead? Really Jared?’ and the general consensus is that you are in fact a ghost. More people wonder what pronounce you use. Why?”
Phantom said nothing. Kaldur exchanged worried glances with Robin and called everyone else to meet by the bioship. It was a successful but tiring mission and they all wanted nothing more than to relax. After debrief because of course Batman would find things that could’ve gone better.
M’gann and Wally were already waiting by the time they got there. Martian was stiff and looked like she was focusing on some really hard task. She almost shut down the Mindlink.
“Phantom, your thoughts are really loud” she whispered out loud “Louder than normal ghost thoughts. I’m trying not to listen or to transmit it on Mindlink but it’s pretty hard. What’s wrong?”
Kaldur remembered the conversation they all had almost right after Phantom joined the Team. As it turned out, ghosts as ‘the beings of emotions’ had thoughts that Martians could read but on different frequencies than living, whatever that meant, and they were really loud. Like they were screaming on the top of their lungs.
Asphalt creaked ominously when Conner jumped down to join them.
“Sorry”
M’gann relaxed minutely before she got visibly angry.
“I don’t mean ‘shield everything’ Phantom, it’s extremely unhealthy, explain what’s wrong?!”
“Seriously guys, you’re all overreacting. It’s not that deep. I'm just weirded out a bit”
“Your brain was screaming ‘It doesn’t make sense!’ on repeat” M’gann pointed out dryly, ending the Mindlink and motioned them inside the bioship right after Artemis scrambled down a fire escape and joined them.
Phantom skillfully ignored the concerned gazes of every member of the Team other than M’gann who at least pretended to focus on flying. He looked like he was trying to figure out some really complicated puzzle.
“What did this civilian say, exactly?” Robin asked, breaking the silence with a surprising amount of caution in his voice.
“He said ‘Thank you, young man’ and squeezed my shoulder,“ the ghost explained with a wistful and a bit hazy smile. It still didn't justify such an intense reaction “I can still feel it. T’was nice. Not strong enough to hurt but… sure? I didn’t do anything, really, and he most likely knows I'm a ghost, but he thanked me anyway. No sense”
Halfway through Robin seemed to get an idea and once again started typing away on his computer. Phantom sunk into his seat more comfortably, but he quickly returned to distressed overthinking.
“People rarely make sense,” Conner pointed out.
“Nah, you just can't people yet” Wally grinned between bites of his granola bar.
“Nah, you're just an extrovert with superpowers. People make no sense,” Artemis decided in a way that ended all arguments “But gratitude after rescue is pretty typical…”
“Not for Phantom“
“What do you mean, Robin?”
“He means, I'm a ghost, Kaldur,” Phantom started “Of course they're not thanking me. I'm an ‘odd, manipulative and evil manifestation of post-living consciousness on ectoplasm‘ and ‘always hostile towards living but lack the sentience to comprehend moral aspects of my behavior‘ and ‘should be eradicated for betterment of the living realm’.” he recited almost cheerfully and it made something in Kaldur’s stomach twist. Judging by their faces, his teammates felt the same way.
“You don’t actually believe that, do you?” M’gann asked carefully.
“It doesn’t matter if I believe this or not. They do. Why would anyone thank me? Especially an adult. Teens apparently decided I'm hot so they support me, which is also weird, and kids think I'm cool because of the ectoblasts and can fly. They usually gush about being saved like ‘omg it’s Phantom’ which is still weird but not as surreal as anyone actually thanking. But that dude was probably on retirement. He wasn’t someone I would expect to have any positive interaction with. Most people his age would try to exorcize me or something”
“That certainly isn’t an aster”
“Eh, I’m fine. Most are just yelling. Problems start when anti-ghost weapons, especially guns, get on the table but I can’t blame them for that one too”
“Dude, I cannot express how far from fine this is”
“You deserve gratitude Phantom” Kaldur added “You’re doing a lot of great work”
“If you say so”
“Also, can we go back to the guns? How often do the people you’re saving try to shoot you?” Artemis asked, raising her head from inspecting her arrows.
“Amity Park is to ghost hunters what Gotham is to crime rates in the USA. Should not be counted if you want something actually similar to reality. Of course they have guns to shoot ghosts. And, let me remind you, I am a ghost-”
“I think we can talk about it another time. How do you feel, Phantom?” M’gann interrupted from her seat, intensly not looking back at them. She once again was tense.
“Still weird as hell to be honest”
“Good weird or bad weird” she pressed on. Kaldur kinda wanted to know what made her do that.
“Good… I think? I know a lot of emotions because I hang out with Jazz Fenton and she pshychoanalizes everyone but I have no idea what to call this. I’m happy that he said this, ecstatic even. But I’m still confused and cautious. Some part of me keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop, for this man to come back, after realizing I’m evil ghost and call hunters and call me manipulative ecto-scum while looking me in the eyes and smile when I’m shot at”
“Did this happen? It’s a bit too specific to believe it didn’t” Wally announced.
“As if only once!” Phantom laughed in an almost hysterical way.
“Don’t think about it right now,” M’gann demanded “Do you want to tell us more about the thanks you got?”
Next words Phantom whispered as if he was sharing some important, sacred secret.
“When he squeezed my arm, it was such a gentle gesture. Such a gentle touch” he sounded on the verge of tears.
“Was it?”
“Yeah... Sorry I’m such a mess over it” ghost muttered after a moment, trying to dry his face with his sleeve. It couldn’t be too helpful nor pleasant, considering his uniform was made mostly out of rubber.
“That’s alright”
“He was so kind and like… cautious too, y’know? Like he cared to not hurt me. When my dad pats me on the back, I’m left out of breath and have to do a few steps to not fall face first on the ground and he thinks I’m normal,” it was always a bit disturbing to hear Phantom talk about his family in present tense. They never mentioned it because they knew when it was bad idea to say something but it didn’t make these instances any less unnerving“And this random civilian seen me as Phantom, almost invulnerable and powerful ghost and chose to be gentle”
Nobody mentioned tears dropping from Phantom’s eyes and down his chin.
“That sounds nice”
“It was. And I, like an idiot, stuttered ‘you're welcome’ and escaped as soon as I could” ghost grumbled, bringing himself back from the memory. Robin actually laughed, honest and open instead of the creepy giggle he used on all sorts of villains. Everyone else soon joined and between breaths someone choked out:
“I did this so many times. So many. I could probably buy a lollipop if I got a cent every time I did it. Maybe even two”
As soon as they weren’t at immediate risk of laughing to death Robin decided to risk it again by starting a captivating tale of clueless Batman holding a baby, getting pie as a present, getting pie in his face and few others.
When he finished, the comfortable type of silence stretched through the Bioship. Everyone was just contently resting, maybe even taking a nap before the ordeal of listening to Batman's ‘Every mistake you made today with sub and sub-sub categories’ lecture while keeping themselves from laughing after all the stories Robin just shared. Kaldur himself was almost asleep when Phantom whispered:
“Is it this nice the second time too?”
“Yeah. It’s even better when you start believing it”
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This is what happens when you're raised by TV and trained in literary analysis
Beyond the crushing heartbreak of that finale, one thing in particular has stuck with me when I look at it in the context of S2 as a whole.
He lays out their relationship, "We're a team, a group. A group of the two of us. And we've spent our existence pretending that we aren't."
He then turns his head away and says, "I mean, the last few years, not really."
He pauses here, facing the interior of the bookshop. Really looks it up and down.
Turns back, "And I would like to spend" before choking on his words and looks toward the window. He can't finish saying something like "And I would like to spend eternity with you" because that's too much, too fast, for both of them.
But it's that "last few years" bit that has firmly lodged itself in my very broken brain.
According to Gaiman, it's been "a few years" since the end of Season 1. Armageddon has been averted. Heaven and Hell have reluctantly retreated. Crowley and Aziraphale have been effectively cut loose from their "sides," leaving them to form their own side.
So at the start of Season 2, we get a glimpse of the “fragile existence” they have carved out for themselves. To me, the biggest difference that we see is how they exist together in front of others. Going to the coffee shop, the pub, and the other shops along the street that Aziraphale has lived on for over 200 years. And don’t forget how they act in front of Nina, Maggie, and sweet, dim Muriel.
At the coffee shop, Aziraphale stammers a bit when Nina asks who Crowley is, but he still seems to have affection in his voice when he says, "We go back a long time."
Compared to Shakespearian "He's not my friend! We've never met before. We don't know each other!" panic, this is an incredible difference.
Of course, each time, Crowley is cool and cheeky and does nothing to indicate that they aren't a pair. Though, of course, he does deny it when Nina asks about Aziraphale being his side piece. “He’s not my bit on the side! He’s far too pure of heart to be anyone’s bit on the side.” And refers to him as an “Angel [swallows]I know.”
When they go the pub, Crowley's joy at doing something together in public that they do not normally do is super cute, including his cheeky order for Aziraphale's sherry. Then, when bringing the drinks over to the socially trapped Aziraphale, he greets Mr. Brown with a truly adorable, "Hello" and a signature DT smile. Then upon hearing how “excited” Mr. Fell is to host the meeting, he looks down and says, “Oh? You astonish me.” while Aziraphale sips his sherry and squirms.
We also watch as Crowley follows Aziraphale as he goes to each shop and talks to the owners about the meeting/secret ball. In theory, Crowley has no reason to tag along, and he certainly doesn’t help sway anyone who doesn’t want to/can’t go. He goofs around at the magic shop. He splays out on the bench, chin on hand, looking for all the world a husband waiting for his wife to pick out a dress at the department store. They are so married it’s ridiculous.
Finally, their behavior in front of Muriel while inside their sanctuary. Crowley sits on the arm of Aziraphale’s chair, somehow looking supremely comfortable on the old-fashioned furniture. He folds up those gloriously long limbs and presses himself as close as possible.
He smiles and plays along with Aziraphale’s coaching of Muriel in her disguise. Calls him Angel and asks to speak in private. And at the end, during the awful wait while Aziraphale talks with The Metatron, Crowley cleans up the shop and tells Muriel that he and Aziraphale will need some “us” time after all this. No beating around the bush.
Without oversight, they can be openly together and happy. But Heaven just can’t let that happen.
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