#byronic heroes maybe

[cto10121]

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just isn’t the same—

[thessaralka]

i saw a solavellan-lover hater talk about how solavellans are delulu who think solas is a perfect princess angel. and like. no. we don't. we know he's a massive bastard. we just don't care. pookie. that's the thing. we love his dastardly ways. his villainous behavior. his evil deeds. it's part of a character we love because we love pain and tragedy. lmfao. delulu? we are very grounded in the reality that solas is a massive asshole. there is actually a lot of conflict among the more thoughtful solavellan-lovers about the fact that he's such an irredeemable fuckass but such a lush in love. solavellan-lovers are just Romantics with a capital R.

[lynsstrange]

I need someone in my irl life who is obsessed with storytelling/the craft of writing. I can’t stand ranting to someone about the beautiful cinematic parallels between two characters when I watch a movie or the tragedy in some juxtaposition in a book and getting blank stares

[rearranging-deck-chairs]

13 is funny right bc like. okay shes both tesla And byron. shes bumbling little awkward cuteboy inventor And uh "a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection". that.

and heres the thing i wonder bc these are both like, archetypes girls like, right? it's like when i was 14 going if i were a companion i simply wouldnt fall in love with the doctor rip to rose but im different and then being 22 going oh no im not different, right? like these are,, the Types. this is why people went so fucking insane bonkers over 10 right? hes also both. obviously because hes the same character and also he looks the part. 12 also is the same guy but he doesnt look the part. he looks like,,, well idk like a sorta wannabe punk anarchist i guess

im being meandering bc im not sure what im trying to say but i have a Wonder bc like. basically i wonder if 13 does the same thing as 10 does. i mean like as a character not like their literal Actions i mean their Effect on their Audiences does it come from the same Thing

bc wait heres another thing that goes in here right bc like 10 was based on david tennant doing casanova right? i havent seen it, i have it downloaded but like, it's sort of in the name you can kinda see where,,,, it all comes from. and then 13 was based on adult life skills anna right? now i HAVE watched that and it's EXTREMELY 13 but is it a byronic hero no it is not. it is nonetheless extremely appealing to me in a fangirl big embarrassing crush kinda way. like in a 14 yo fangirling over david tennant kinda way. im assuming. like technically it's definitely a 25 yo fangirling over 13 kinda way but how different is that really

and thats actually i think exactly what im wondering. how different IS that really. is the thing that appeals abt 13 is that what people feel abt their wet men? im watching that video essay abt snapewives again btw maybe good context to have. bc theres this thing abt the wet men people like right? like, theres this aspect of wanting to like, save them? like youve got a wet sad prettyboy and you can cheer him up. or youve got a wet sad meanyboy and he only likes you. right? theres thoroughness & nuance im missing but thats what i understand. with my head bc with my heart ive never been close. unless 13 counts bc then im very close but im very much wondering if she counts and if she doesnt then why not

IS 13 a byronic hero in how we ('we' here defined as people who have a gay little crush on her) relate to her or is she NOT bc she doesnt look the part? like 12

another question: if 13 is not a byronic hero is that because she doesnt look the part or bc of other factors. are the other factors there BECAUSE she doesnt look the part? if thats the case i'd expect it to work the same with 12. does it? (i mean like, people's biases abt age and gender subconsciously affecting either/both which traits we highlight/notice in them?)

if 13 is NOT a byronic hero, ARE there women byronic heroes i could use to compare here? (kinda expecting like an woman in gideon the ninth series here which i still havent finished)

[harrowscore]

🥳���� it's complete!!! 🥳🎉 36k~ words. not bad!!

not me writing 8k words of a watchmen fanfic in a single day hahahaha

[wisteriasymphony]

I have a feeling that you secretly hate this show and all the writing choices . I just do .

I mean, without this show we wouldn't have the fandom, ergo I wouldn't be able to mess around with the characters and put them in situations, so... no?

My opinions on the show are untraceable and entirely irrelevant, and I tend to agree on a take-to-take basis with people on all sides of the fandom. Were there some things that could've been done differently? Yes of course. But Miraculous is what it is and if it were something Emmy-worthy, I don't know if I'd be so enthralled with it as I am.

Think of it like this:

Most people in the fandom play with the ideas in mlb like Barbie dolls. You dress them up, take them through soap opera plots and (as the wonderful asukiess so eloquently put it) cocomelon tragedies where they're all screaming and crying and kissing and you have a grand old time with it.

What I have been doing, over here in my own little world divorced from reason and sense, is chewing on all of the Barbie dolls' hands, cramming their heads in jars of finger paint, and scribbling on the walls. (And occasionally, just occasionally... my unpredictable scribblings will form a coherent word or thought that might even be approaching something profound about... the human condition or struggles with self-actualization or whatnot. But it's not a guarantee.)

Can you say the latter really... 'hates' the dolls? Hates the way they were made? No. To hate the dolls is to refuse to engage with them altogether, or to make YouTube Essays treating the Barbie dolls like real people with real culpability for their actions and calling them Mary Sues. That's not what I'm doing, not by a long shot.

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of what I do would be lost without the context of the show itself and its decisions.

- Kuro Neko was the catalyst in why I started writing TWEOS, and a lot of the impact of how characters act in that is because you need the prior context of both the show and the fandom to back it up.

- Adrien Agreste as Byronic Hero has much less weight to it unless you're used to seeing a version of him that is so clearly not that. The lovesquare in that fic absolutely falling apart by every conceivable metric—down to things as minuscule as Marinette the baker's daughter pursuing Adrien who secretly hates the taste of sweets—feels like less of a betrayal if you haven't seen the way they are supposed to be.

- Adrien and Marinette being presented as a cruel inevitability of a universe that does not care what they have to say in the matter... in because in 37,847 universes and counting, they will be together. In canon, they must be together.

tl;dr Maybe I'm dodging the question, and maybe my actions in changing so much about how the characters act/the world works in my fic speaks louder than my words... But I can't bring myself to hate this show. Percussive maintenance is still maintenance.

[richincolor]

Ode to the Olympics: Books & Sports

I'm a big fan of the Olympics and have absolutely let responsibilities go in favor of watching amazing sport. And I thought, as the Olympics come to a close that I'd share some books that focus on athletes aiming to be their best all while dealing with the trials of adolescence. 

Rez Ball by Byron Graves

These days, Tre Brun is happiest when he is playing basketball on the Red Lake Reservation high school team—even though he can’t help but be constantly gut-punched with memories of his big brother, Jaxon, who died in an accident. When Jaxon's former teammates on the varsity team offer to take Tre under their wing, he sees this as his shot to represent his Ojibwe rez all the way to their first state championship. This is the first step toward his dream of playing in the NBA, no matter how much the odds are stacked against him. But stepping into his brother’s shoes as a star player means that Tre can’t mess up. Not on the court, not at school, and not with his new friend, gamer Khiana, who he is definitely not falling in love with. After decades of rez teams almost making it, Tre needs to take his team to state. Because if he can live up to Jaxon's dreams, their story isn’t over yet.

Check out this trailer for Rez Ball coming next month!

You Don't Have a Shot by Racquel Marie

Valentina “Vale” Castillo-Green’s life revolves around soccer. Her friends, her future, and her father’s intense expectations are all wrapped up in the beautiful game. But after she incites a fight during playoffs with her long-time rival, Leticia Ortiz, everything she’s been working toward seems to disappear. Embarrassed and desperate to be anywhere but home, Vale escapes to her beloved childhood soccer camp for a summer of relaxation and redemption…only to find out that she and the endlessly aggravating Leticia will be co-captaining a team that could play in front of college scouts. But the competition might be stiffer than expected, so unless they can get their rookie team’s act together, this second chance―and any hope of playing college soccer―will slip through Vale’s fingers. When the growing pressure, friendship friction, and her overbearing father push Vale to turn to Leticia for help, what starts off as a shaky alliance of necessity begins to blossom into something more through a shared love of soccer. . . and maybe each other.

Chasing Pacquiano by Rod Pulido

Self preservation. That's Bobby's motto for surviving his notoriously violent high school unscathed. Being out and queer would put an unavoidable target on his back, especially in a Filipino community that frowns on homosexuality. It's best to keep his head down, get good grades, and stay out of trouble. But when Bobby is unwillingly outed in a terrible way, he no longer has the luxury of being invisible. A vicious encounter has him scrambling for a new way to survive--by fighting back. Bobby is inspired by champion Filipino boxer Manny Pacquiao to take up boxing and challenge his tormentor. Then Pacquiao publicly declares his stance against queer people, and Bobby's faith--in his hero and in himself--is shaken to the core.

And Other Mistakes by Erika Turner

Aaliyah's home life has never been great, but she thought she'd survive her last years of high school with at least her friendships and cross-country stardom intact. That is, until junior year she got outed by a church elder and everything came undone ― including Aaliyah. Now, senior year is about to start and she is determined to come back faster and wiser. No more letting other people define her. No more losing herself to their expectations. Except... well, with new friends, old flames, nosy school counselors, and teammates who don't trust her yet, the route already feels rough. And what's with the new girl, Tessa, who gives Aaliyah butterflies every time she looks at her? Regardless, everything is fine. She'll be fine. Because this is the year to prove to everyone―and most of all, herself―that she's more than her mistakes. After all, even Aaliyah can't outrun everything.

[abarbaricyalp]

For the @sambuckylibrary Anniversary Bingo!

I've always wondered what it was that happened between Endgame and TFATWS to separate Sam and Bucky (other than bad writing) I don't think I really found an answer, but it was fun to ponder a little bit of their mental state during those six months and the fallout afterwards

Never Hit Send, Never Called Again

Sam had clocked the phone instantly in Raynor’s pseudo-office, pseudo-session. Some old flip-phone nonsense that he’d only ever seen Bucky use for nefarious goings-on. He’d flashed it at her during some argument about how reachable he was. Actually, her exact words had been ‘accessible’ which Sam didn’t like at all. Still, that phone was not Bucky’s regular phone. He’d seen the sleek thing he used to play music and also that bird game that definitely wasn’t still available to download. The one he added Sarah’s number to after much complaining from Sam and one flash of his dumb puppy eyes that only came out every now and then as he said, “What if something happens to you? I should be able to contact her.”

Despite the rest of the insanity in the ensuing months, the phone hadn’t left Sam’s mind. Or, if it did, it came back at the oddest times, like when he was stuck at a red light or when Bucky appeared on the docks like some Byronic hero getting over his own bullshit. He wasn’t sure how to bring it up. He wasn’t even sure if Bucky still had it. Something had changed after that last meeting with Raynor. It was as if Bucky was caught in the moment between a world he’d been living in for six months and following Sam into a new one.  He’d chosen Sam then, even while they were both pissed at each other, even while his pardon hung in the balance, even when he hadn’t chosen Sam for half a year before. Something shifted and Sam wasn’t sure if whatever shady things Bucky had been doing went with it. The phone didn’t even make an appearance in Madripoor.

Still, one warm, lazy afternoon in Louisiana, while Bucky was in the shower, Sam thought of the phone again. Bucky had left his jeans thrown over Sam’s bed and Sam only hesitated for a few seconds before digging through absurdly large pockets for such tight pants until he came up with the phone. There was no kind of password protection on it. Sam wasn’t sure something this simple had the option.

The storage was minimal. There was a call log, a message center, and some kind of tracking program that he pointedly ignored. He navigated to the messages, where strings of unsaved numbers exchanged never more than a handful of texts. Except for two strings with Sam’s number.

In Bucky’s real phone, Sam was saved as Birdbrain and there was some unattractive photo of him shoving a hotdog in his mouth saved as the contact picture. Their messages consisted of travel plans, pictures of Sarah, Cass, and AJ, and a running joke about pigeons and raccoons. Maybe a few plans about dinner or a complaint about someone they worked with.

The first one on this phone–Sam–had nothing from the past several months. In fact, the texts stopped shortly after John Walker’s announcement as the new Captain America. Oddly enough, despite this not being the number Sam had ever had, the texts he’d sent Bucky in the months after the Battle of Earth were logged in it.

[October 25 2023] Landed safely in La. I’ll call tomorrow.

[October 26 2023] Hey, text me when you see this.

[October 31 2023] I checked with Pepper Potts. I know you’re not dead. Answer my calls.

[November 2 2023] Okay, you’re ignoring me. Fine. I can be more irritating than you are stubborn.

[November 5 2023] The world is weird. Someone moved into my brother’s old house while he was gone.

[November 5 2023] He’s a lot like you. Hiding out in New York instead of coming home. He can’t answer a text either.

[November 17 2023] What are you doing with your time? The Air Force reached out. Without the Avengers, they figure it’s a waste for me not to use the wings.

[November 17 2023] That’s crazy right? They’re the ones who locked them up in the first place.

[November 17 2023] I mean, it’s only been a month.

[November 22 2023] Any Thanksgiving plans? You know, if you don’t want to cook, lots of people get Chinese food. I knew someone who sat in the movie theater all day.

[November 22 2023] Could come down here too. Always an open invite.

[November 23 2023] If this is about Steve, you’re being an asshole. I lost him too.

[December 25 2023] Merry Christmas, asshole.

[January 1 2024] and a happy new year too

[January 12 2024] I need your opinion on something, so answer my damn calls.

[January 13 2024] You know what. Nevermind. It doesn’t involve you anyway.

[January 13 2024] I don’t know why I’m sitting here thinking we’re some kind of team. Why I’m trying to base any of my decisions around you. You gave up any say you’d get in the matter by throwing the most high school level bitchfit for no damn reason.

[January 13 2024] You could at least tell me what I did wrong. We were friends, Barnes. Don’t act like we weren’t. You were the only thing I had and I know I damn sure was the only thing you had.

[January 13 2024] I was thinking ahead and you were always there in those plans. What am I supposed to do now?

[February 22 2024] This is your last chance to say something before I don’t wanna hear it anymore.

[February 23 2024] fine.

Rereading them again, embarrassment and anger welled in his chest in equal measure but opposite directions. He’d been so lost after the Battle. Losing Steve had come out of left field, but the week after, while all of the clean up and pardon work and Blip nonsense was worked out, had made him feel like he could actually get through it because Bucky had been right beside him, a grouchy but solid shadow that made sure he was never near a cliff and never alone.

Sam had offered for Bucky to come to Louisiana with him, but the other man hadn’t even entertained the idea. He had some pretty words for how long he’d been gone from New York and he just needed to get home as much as Sam did and but, hey, send him pictures of the beach. Maybe Sam had realized right then that something wasn’t right, that Bucky was scheming something. While he was angry at Bucky’s disappearance, he wasn’t really surprised. Once he had confirmation from Pepper Potts that Bucky was alive and active–and not taken by Hydra or killed by some old foe or victim–he knew that there’d be no talking Bucky down to Louisiana or back into a team with him.

He’d wanted that so badly. After all the time they’d spent together, after all the bullshit they’d gone through together, he wanted Bucky next to him. He hadn’t imagined it. Him and Bucky, once they got past their posturing, worked well together. Bucky gave him something, brought something out in him, that he hadn’t had before. The childish, playful banter, the steadfast devotion, the support to do the things that left their hands dirty. Steve was great, the other side of Sam’s coin he thought sometimes, but it wasn’t everything. He wanted Bucky back so badly, it was like a gnawing wound in his chest, exacerbated by rejection and doubt.

Sam had reread his texts to Bucky hundreds of times over those months. He knew what they said. He knew Bucky had never answered.

Except.

On this phone? On the second text thread called STW?

There were response boxes. Not always immediately from Sam’s texts and rarely in relation to what Sam said anyway, but there were responses.

[October 25 2023] sam

[October 25 2023] hey

[October 25 2023] good

[October 25 2023] you deserve to be home

[November 1 2023] i’m sorry

[November 1 2023] it’s not about you

[November 1 2023] i mean i guess it kind of is. you’re just so good sam

[November 1 2023] i don’t know what i’m doing. I haven’t even gone outside. i have these nightmares. i barely sleep. i don’t have furniture. you don’t need this kind of bullshit while you’re trying to rebuild your life

[November 15 2023] the therapy is um it’s weird man. steve talked a lot about what you did at the va. this isn’t like that. i think she keeps trying to ‘tough love’ me but i don’t like her enough for it to stick

[November 16 2023] it’s my fault you know. all of this. it could only be me who did what i did as the winter soldier. no one else was like me. no one else survived

[November 16 2023] how am i supposed to make up for that

[November 24 2023] i saw you on the news. no rest for the righteous huh

[November 24 2023] you looked really good. you did really good. the whole world should be proud of you

[December 25 2023] Merry Christmas, Sam.

[December 27 2023] i started trying. to stop the things i set into motion. uh. it’s not really helping. at least it doesn’t feel good. actually it kind of feels like i’m falling down a whirlpool in the middle of a black ocean. there’s so much to fix. so much misery that’s out there because of me. it feels like a chore too not like a need or a desire. checking boxes to get a good grade or something

[December 28 2023] sam i’m so tired

[January 2 2024] do you remember that day in wakanda when you first came out to my little place instead of staying in the palace? you complained about the blanket i was using because we couldn’t share it then decided that it didn’t matter because i was too hot anyway? you cuddled that baby goat almost the whole time you were there

[January 2 2024] sam i think i’ve been gone on you for a while

[January 2 2024] that’s why i can’t come back. you’re doing too much good. you’re changing things. you’ve got a beautiful family who loves you. i can’t get in your way. i’d just bring you down with me.

[January 2 2024] i’ve been doing a lot of crashing recently and it’s like a wrecking ball falling over, just takes everything else with it.

“What are you doing?” Bucky asked from behind him, interrupting Sam’s reading.

He stamped down the knee-jerk reaction to whirl around and hide the phone. He turned deliberately and held it up. At once, a thousand questions ran through his head. Somehow, the one that made it out was, “Why don’t you have auto-capitalization on?”

Bucky’s eyebrows rose just a little. There was a simmering anger on his face, but below that was a scared animal look as he checked for quick exits. “Why do you have that out?”

“Rasputin was calling to set up your golf date. Why are my texts on here?”

Bucky scowled and he crossed the room to swipe the phone from Sam’s hand. For someone wearing Sam’s old basics sweats and a t-shirt that had seen its fair share of summer projects, he still looked like a dangerous storm cloud. “It’s none of your business. I was keeping your contact attempts close.”

Sam’s eyes narrowed. “You were getting my texts twice over and you still ignored me? Actually, you didn’t ignore me. You were answering me, you were talking to me, but you were too chicken shit to actually send it.”

“You didn’t need to see that shit,” Bucky snapped. “You weren’t supposed to see it.”

“I needed to see all of it! I needed to hear from you!” Sam objected. “I was practically begging you to answer me!”

“I didn’t have any answers, Sam!” Bucky insisted. He shoved the phone down into his duffel bag and made to sling it over his shoulder, even though his jeans were still behind Sam and his boots were under the bed.

“Don’t even try it,” Sam bit out, yanking the bag away from Bucky. “You don’t get to run and go MIA again. Those days are behind you. I’m not taking it a third time.”

Bucky’s bright, stony eyes flicked between Sam and his bag before he gave up the fight. If he wanted to, Sam knew he could easily get by him, grab his bag, and leave. He could indispose Sam in a hundred ways. Make a dozen new escape paths. But he didn’t. Instead, he took a step back, then another, kept going until he hit the edge of the dresser and then stopped. “The first time was hardly about you,” he pointed out.

Anger and rejection and that old loneliness burst against Sam’s heart finally. It filled up his ribs until it could climb in his throat, and hot tears pricked at his eyes. He willed them away because he was not going to cry about this so long after the fact. “I needed you. Why didn’t you answer?”

“I told you, I wasn’t going to spend the rest of your life hurting you or dragging you down with me. I didn’t think the pardon would stick. I thought the past would keep hunting me. I know what people think of me. And, after the battle, I lost who I was. In the silence, in the stillness, I wanted a new fight.”

“I needed you,” Sam repeated from between his teeth. “That’s all bullshit. I needed you. You’d been there and then you left without a damn word. And now you’ve come back. Where are all those fears now, Barnes?”

Bucky blinked a few times, opened his mouth to say something but didn’t. His fingers curled on the lip of the dresser as he looked away from Sam, down to the ground. “I finally figured out you were more important than the fear.

“Sam, I’m sorry,” Bucky rushed to say before Sam could respond. “I was selfish. Unbelievably so. I masked it all as concern for you–which it was!--but I know now it was to protect myself too. I-I didn’t want to hurt you because I thought if I did, I’d lose you too. And I know I did anyway. I pulled the trigger myself. I thought it’d hurt less if I did it. One more thing in a long list. I’m sorry I put you in the crossfires. I’m sorry about all of it.”

Sam stared at him. He wished he still had the phone in his hand because at least then he’d be curling his fingers around it instead of digging his nails into his own palm. “No,” he said.

“No?” Bucky asked.

Sam stalked across the room to him, put himself right into Bucky’s space because he had nowhere to go against the dresser. “You wanted to hurt yourself and you didn’t care if you hurt me in the process.”

“Sam, that’s not–”

“You wanted to keep some happiness or security away from yourself and you didn’t give a fuck that you were keeping it from me too.”

“I never meant–”

“You didn’t think about me at all, Barnes! That’s the problem. I was in your face for months and you still couldn’t think of me.”

He realized suddenly that Bucky’s fingers were around his wrists and his own hands were pressing knuckles into Bucky’s chest. He forced his arms to relax. Bucky moved his hands just enough to keep him from digging into his chest. 

“You’re right,” he admitted in a breath. “I knew you were looking for something from me and I purposely kept myself from you. I wanted you to be able to find it away from me. I wanted you to be happy here. To be happy with Torres. To be happy with the Air Force. When you got your life put back together, I thought you had. I didn’t know… I didn’t know you still needed me. I wanted you not to need me.”

“You were the only person in the world who could understand,” Sam breathed. He stared at a spot on Bucky’s shoulder instead of at his face. “We disappeared together, came back together, had Steve, didn’t have Steve, fought the same battles, survived the same things, went on the run, went into hiding. How could I ever not need you next to me? Or even 1300 miles away, but at least close enough to text?”

Bucky’s breath stuttered as he let it out. “I’m so sorry, Sam. I’ll spend the rest of my life making it up to you. Hey.” He let go of one of Sam’s hands to raise his face up. “I’m never going anywhere again until you tell me to. You’ve got me now.”

And the sentiment would be sweet in any other circumstance, but Sam’s trust was still smarting something serious and all the things he’d been trying not to think about since March seemed to have just festered and grown. Six months of anger and worry and self doubt, doubled in size now. 

The way they had been over these last few months–even when they were under each other’s feet, arguing about everything but the actual problem–had been exactly what Sam had been longing for. Now he knew he hadn’t had it at all because Bucky had the emotional regulation of a six year old. They’d been living together long enough for Sam to never want to lose this again and it could’ve happened almost a year ago. They could have a house or an apartment by now. 2.5 cats and a grocery subscription service. All of the maybes and wishes of these terrible nine months could’ve eased so much of the heartache and uncertainty.

“Why couldn’t you just talk to me?” Sam asked. “I just needed to hear from you.”

“I’m sorry,” Bucky said again. “I was selfish and misguided. I promise I’ll do better.”

Sam held onto Bucky’s right wrist, smoothing his thumb over the racing pulse point there. If nothing else, Bucky had proven himself steady since March, even though the tumultuous beginning. But Sam had thought he was steady after the Blip too until he’d disappeared.

“I know it sounds bad right now,” Bucky added. “But if you need space–”

“No,” Sam said quickly. “Don’t leave. Not again.”

Bucky visibly relaxed. He nodded and then pulled Sam the last half foot to his chest, snaring an arm around his waist and pressing his forehead to Sam’s. He smelled like Sam’s bodywash, which was still weird even after all this time, and the warmth of the shower and an embarrassed worried flush sank into Sam’s bones instantly. “I’d come back this time. As soon as you asked,” Bucky said.

“You don’t have to if you don’t leave,” Sam insisted softly. “You’ve got a lot of time to make up for. Don’t add any more to your tab.”

Bucky huffed out the beginnings of a chuckle and nodded, forehead rocking against Sam’s. “I can do that, Sammy,” he promised. “Anything you need.”

And, yeah, maybe it was a need. It certainly felt like one, had for a while now. But more than that, it was a want. He wanted Bucky around and that ached more in his chest. Instead of admitting that, he just said, “This is a good start,” and held Bucky tighter.

[burningvelvet]

Some thoughts on the topic of Byronism, Byronic Heroes, Byron himself, and Mr. Darcy, Mr. Rochester, and their respective authors...

This was inspired after I was tagged in a post (thank you @bethanydelleman !) asking whether Mr. Darcy should be considered a Byronic Hero or not. I start with my response before delving off, but I refer back at the end and it all ties in.

On Mr. Darcy: to Byronic, or not to Byronic? That is the question...

Whether or not Mr. Darcy should be considered a Byronic Hero is a complex question, as is the concept of the Byronic Hero itself.

I think there two versions of Darcy, and general pop culture tends to conflate them. There is Misunderstood Darcy (pre-"redemption" arc; aka what many think of him pre-Elizabeth's discovery of his true personality) and then there is True Darcy (post-"redemption" arc; "oh he's not rude, just socially awkward and proud"). Misunderstood Darcy has aspects of the Byronic, whereas True Darcy isn't Byronic at all.

Is Darcy Byronic? I recognize that he has Byronic elements that would make the general populace view him as Byronically aligned, so it doesn't bother me too much if people call him such, but without fully going into the debateable qualifications of the Byronic Hero, I don't think he is truly Byronic.

My interpretation of "Byronic" as a concept:

"Byronic" is not an easily defined term. A lot of academics have their own preferred methods of classifying the Byronic and there is no one fixed definition or interpretation. "Byronic" originally referred, of course, to the themes and tropes presented in the characters of Byron, who was one of the best-selling and most influential writers of the 1800s.

However, even applying the term "Byronic" solely to Byron's own corpus is an act of over-generalization. Many of Byron's purported "Byronic Heroes" are drastically different from each other or have little in common, as Byronist Peter Cochran noted in his review of Atara Stein's "The Byronic Hero in Film, Fiction and Television" (https://petercochran.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/stein-green-lapinski-ii.pdf).

I believe there are two main types of Byronic Hero: the Broad Byronic and the Byronist's Byronic.

The Broad Byronic is the modern pop cultural conception of Byronism which has been applied to practically every rebellious anti-hero. You can find thousands of articles analyzing why thousands of characters are or aren't Byronic, from Jack Sparrow to Batman to Luke Skywalker and ad infinitum. If you try hard enough, anything can be Byronic.

The Byronist's Byronic is like the Orthodox Byronic, the more traditional sense of the term. Academics who take the stritcer Byronist's Byronic approach mainly focus on Byron's direct literary descendants, like the Brontës and Pushkin, who were thoroughly obsessed with Byron and whose works/characters are directly and obviously inspired by Byron's own works. Heathcliff and Eugene Onegin are the most commonly cited examples and are Byronic by all standards.

Over time, "Byronic" has taken on a life of its own, leading to what I dubbed as "the Broad Byronic." I personally believe there is sort of a Byronic spectrum wherein I would place Heathcliff on one end and maybe Mr. Rochester on the other, considering his salvation plotline, which I feel is huge to his character and which Heathcliff lacks (as he openly declares at the end, he has no regrets for his actions).

Peter Cochran's interpretation of the Byronic Hero

Peter Cochran was a writer, professor, & one of the best Byronists (scholars of Byron) & I often defer to his opinion. His website is a haven for Byronism. His interpretation of the Byronic Hero is very much representative of the orthodox Byronist's Byronic.

In his essay "Byron's 'Turkish Tales': An Introduction," Cochan provides a brief analysis of the Byronic Hero, which I have sectioned out the most relevant parts of:

"Much has been written about him; what few writers say is that he has so many facets that it's misleading to treat him as a single archetype. [..] The Byronic hero is a human dead-end. He is never successful as a warrior or as a politician [..] he is never successful as a lover. [..] The Byronic Hero is never a husband, never a father, and never a teacher [..] He bequeaths nothing to posterity, and his life ends with him. He is to be contrasted with the Shakespearean tragic hero, who has to be something potentially life-affirming, such as a father (Lear) or a witty conversationalist (Hamlet) or a great soldier (Macbeth, Coriolanus, Antony) or a lover (Romeo, Antony). If they were not such excellent people, their stories would not be tragic. The Byronic Hero is not tragic: he's just a failure, and leads on to the Superfluous Man of Russian literature - as Pushkin demonstrated, when he created the Byronically-fixated Eugene Onegin. [..] The Byronic Hero must never be witty, or be brought in contact with a critical intelligence [..] if he were, his tale would lose its imagined grandeur [..] In his gloom, failure, and rejection of humour The Byronic Hero aligns not with the heroes of Shakespearean tragedy but with the villains of Shakespearean comedy: Shylock, Malvolio, and Jacques. [..] I would suggest that The Byronic Hero is either a closet gay, or a poorly-adjusted bisexual - a problem that Byron would have known all about."

On Mr. Rochester and Mr. Darcy

In his introduction to Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre: Modern Critical Interpretations, legendary literary critic Harold Bloom explained that Mr. Rochester is Charlotte Brontë taking the Byronic Hero, killing him, and then rebirthing him. I fully agree with Bloom's interpretation:

"[Rochester's] transformation heralds the death of the Byronic hero [..] Rochester is, in this sense, a pivotal figure; marking the transition from the Romantic to the modern hero [..]"

I would argue that what Austen does to Mr. Darcy is a lighter, pre-Byronic attempt at doing what Brontë did with her transformation of the Byronic in Mr. Rochester. Women growing to sympathize with rude men and then (directly or indirectly) inspiring them to change for the better. Women taking the Byronic and not just going "I can fix him," but instead "I'll tell him off, and then maybe he'll fix himself." Like Darcy, Rochester has two versions, pre-redemption and post-redemption. This is not Byronic, but their pre-redemption selves are, with Mr. Rochester being much, much more so than Darcy, and being considered an archetypal Byronic Hero (rightfully so in my opinion, his come-to-God ending aside).

Also, what Darcy and Rochester are redeemed for differs greatly; I'm not equating their moral or personal failures, and I know that Rochester clearly has more of them (if any anti-Rochester, pro-Darcy fan is out there, pls don't kill me for comparing them).

On Austen and Byron:

Austen started writing P&P when Byron was 8-years-old, so she definitely wasn't influenced by the actual Byron in creating Mr. Darcy. However, Austen did read Byron's work later on, or at least his poem The Corsair, which was his best-selling work at the time and which is one of his most cliché "Byronic" works. She did write some works, like Emma and Persuasion, after reading The Corsair, but I haven't read these yet and I'm not the biggest Austen scholar, so I don't know if she was ever actually influenced by Byron or not. I'm positive that people have analyzed this before. Lots has been written on Austen/Byron. They also shared a publisher, though they never met.

On Byronic (the writer) VS Byronic (the writer's characters):

To further confuse us, "Byronic" by its literal definition can refer to the Byronic Hero OR Byronic as in Byron the Man. Many conflate these things, but they are separate. This adds to the case of the Broad Byronic. Many of Byron's contemporaries created characters that were direct and obvious tributes or parodies of him, including Mary Shelley's The Last Man, Percy Shelley's Julian and Maddalo, and Thomas Love Peacock's Nightmare Abbey. They all knew Byron personally. Mary Shelley openly put Byron into several of her novels, as explained in "Byron and Mary Shelley" by Ernest Lovell Jr. and "Unnationalized Englishmen in Mary Shelley's Fiction" by William Brewer. Other notable examples of this are Caroline Lamb's Glenarvon (Lamb was Byron's ex) and Dr. John Polidori's The Vampyre (Polidori was Byron's doctor) in which both titular characters were/are clearly known by readers to be caricatures of Byron. The Vampyre was the first vampire novel, and was not only a caricature of Byron but also based on Byron's short story Augustus Darvell. So all modern "Byronic" vampires, including Dracula, are really Byronic as in Byron the Man, although they sometimes may overlap with the Byronic Hero. As I said, easily confusing!

As many academics (and Lord Byron himself) have noted, many of Byron's fans wrongly conflated his characters with himself. Although many of Byron's works were indeed semi-autobiographical, he himself said that they were not intended as actual depictions of himself, and that he was annoyed when people thought so. Many fans who met him would write they were shocked to find he was nothing like the Byronic Heroes of his works. He was humorous, he smiled often, he was somewhat of a dandy and much of a rake (self-confessedly), he was an aristocrat, he was considered by many to be effeminate, etc. -- all elements that are not typically expected of the Byronic Hero.

In reference to his drama The Deformed Transformed (which contains the characters Satan and Caesar) Mary Shelley wrote to him in a letter:

"The Critics, as they used to make you a Childe Harold, Giaour, & Lara all in one, will now make a compound of Satan & Caesar to form your prototype, & your 600 firebrands in Murray's hands will be in costume." [John Murray was Byron's publisher]

Here, Mary mentions how many of Byron's readers expected him to be just like his characters Harold, Giaour, & Lara, who fans assumed were his self-insert characters, as they each had strong similarities. However, these characters were more similar to "alter-egos" than actual "self-portraits." My personal interpretation is that Byron was writing these very similar dark anti-heroes and villains in order to channel the darker aspects of his subconscious, or what Jung would call his Shadow Self, to try to purge or subdue it. Though he lived before the field of psychology officially existed, Byron was very interested in all things psychological, and he used his writing as a method of self-therapy (see: Touched with Fire written by psychologist Kay Jamison, which contains one of the most thorough & reliable psychoanalyses of him).

As Bloom explains in the essay I mentioned, and as countless other academics have explained, Charlotte Brontë and many other women in the early 1800s were obsessed with Byron and his works. Byron's English-speaking fan base has always been primarily female, especially in the beginning of his career. Byron's fans wrote him letters revealing their differing interpretations of him and his Byronic Heroes (but again, most didn't really differentiate between the two).

Likewise, I think the Brontë sisters may have conflated Byron with his Byronic Heroes. Mr. Rochester is such a strong example of Byron the Man and has so many similarities to him that when reading Jane Eyre I felt like I was reading Lord Byron fanfiction. It's clear that Charlotte Brontë was familiar with his biography. For example (one of countless), in chapter 17 Rochester sings what he calls "a Corsair song" -- as I mentioned earlier, The Corsair was one of Byron's greatest hits, and Jane Eyre is set around the time The Corsair was published, and Byron also wrote songs and was also known for his good voice.

Although the Brontë sisters were each influenced by him, they took their own individual spins on the Byronic, and their works reveal the dynamicism of these themes. In my opinion, Emily employs the Byronist's Byronic most raw and faithfully (and maybe even takes it further), Charlotte punishes, redeems, and transforms the Byronic with much influence from Byron the Man, and Anne presents the Byronic most critically and realistically, asking "what if the Byronic Hero were real, and really got married -- what would that look like?" and having perhaps the most (Broadly) Byronic heroine ever, who is also later redeemed by the end, and has her veil of Byronic mystery removed much like Darcy did.

[blushblushbear]

sorry..... me again...… you can choose to ignore this if you feel like it's too much

(not trying to guilt-trip you, please don't feel pressured

uh maybe... Nimh? Nimh is cute I like Nimh

if you don't feel like doing him, maybe Poe or Anon?

*blows the dust off this ask* oops this one's pretty old

I already did Nimh so Anon and Poe it is

Anon

Okay not to call the scott a drunk

but I'm about to call the scott a drunk

he's not too bad, but he is a little picky about what he will and will not drink

low key judges people for their choice of beers

side eyes people who order basically liquid candy as a drink (for a cocktail at least, he will rot his teeth on mountain dew don't get it twisted)

he mostly does pints but his fav mixed drink is a moscow mule

or a spiked energy beverage

speaking of drinks he always has a crazy amount of them

g-fuel, red bull, monster-- every energy drink type thing you've seen he's probably got

also drinks prime

also mountain dew

a lot of it

I joke about his teeth rotting but in all honesty he takes good care of them

that's the one gamer stereotype he does not fall in town

he's low key germophobic so his apartment and battle station are SPOTLESS

he defo has those touchland hand sanitizers cause he's a boujee bitch

speaking of boujee he's actually p well off

started trading stocks young and did crypto till it tanked

he doesn't like to talk about his crypto days (he was a hard crypto bro at it's peak)

usually his drunk rambles are about crypto

also conspiracy theories

also video games

his parents are decently well off too but he doesn't talk to them much

they don't have a bad relationship but it's definitely one of those 'you see the family only around the holidays' kind of deals

he has a lot of internet buds but I think deep down he's bad at making real connections and actually gets pretty lonely

likes watching animal videos, WOULD NOT get a pet

rarely has people over to his place, took him a while to fully mentally accept having you over

he was determined to get over it though cause he really wanted you around

would never shower with someone cause that just feels unsanitary-- the shower is for CLEANING

would maybe get a snake-- they're pretty clean

once went 3 days without sleeping

actually lost a lot of sleep to stardew valley when it first came out

his farm is AMAZING

loves to troll at video games but not in a run face first into the enemy team and ruin it for everyone kinda way

more a does a 360 no scope on you right when you think you're safe

you mad bro??? lol

sends lots of memes about liking his s/o cause he's really bad at saying how he feels

favorite director is Edgar Wright cause he's a man of taste and culture

regularly cleans and buffs his nails

has at least one to two drinks chilling in every room of the house

really wants to get an ear piercing

really vain about his looks even though he dresses like garbage

just tell him he's handsome, he's legit too proud to beg but he needs that validation

listens to a lot of underground bands and artists

also a lot of djs

owns 15 pairs of headphones

5 have animal ears

showers at least once a day unless he's in a gaming trance

once tried to write you poetry, felt like an idiot, removed all evidence of it's existence and would deny it fully if you ever found out

Poe

Probably not a surprise to anyone but he got bullied a lot in high school

Has been writing poetry since he was 10 and has notebooks full of poems and short stories from over his life

really wants to write some kind of vampire mystery series centered around a brooding poet vampire but also he's bad at writing mysteries

I've sad this before but he's in a book club with Nimh and Cashew

he keeps trying to get them to read romantic novels

Cashew was game until he realized Poe meant like Lord Byron romantic

Mary Shelley Romantic

thinks Mary Shelley losing her virginity on her mother's grave is the coolest thing ever and is high key jealous

Mary Shelley is honestly his hero

secretly got addicted to soap operas

he wants to stop so bad but he can't

he doesn't have a pet but if he did he'd be that dude you can totally tell has a pet cause he's always covered in fur

not that Poe would even care

Poe actually never much cared for birds and is still salty about becoming a magpie

owns so many Victorian/Edwardian style coats

and vests

he's just one color palette/slight aesthetic change away from just being steampunk

owns so many bits of jewelry, it mostly just floats around his living spaces and he chooses what he's wearing that day at random

all the people who headcanon Poe as trans, you're correct

constantly painting his nails and it's always chipping

his nail polish is actually pretty jank but he doesn't care so long as his nails are black

his living spaces are a mess

lots of papers, lots of random odds and ends, lots of clothes and book and forgotten mugs everywhere

does actually partake in the music aspect of the goth culture

most of his fav bands are ones you haven't heard of

he doesn't actually like horror much

at least not this modern jumpscare nonsense

he likes his horror dark, dramatic, and poetically gorey

Saw??? more like pa-shaw he can't stand those movies

the closest thing he gets to liking more mainstream horror franchises is Chucky

Tiffany Valentine is his favorite (*jennifer tilly voice* ~Jennifer Tilly~)

he can always get down with halloween, but only the first one

he can fuck with Tim Burton and Guillermo Del Toro though

crimson peak is his shit

also Jane Austen bitch?!

he loves him some Jane Austen

Emily Dickinson

Mary Shelley obvs

he low key hates to be basic but fucking

read Emily Dickinson's poetry and tell him you're not simping

he legit does simp for Shelley and Dickinson

legit loves the Kira Knightly Pride and Prejudice will all his heart

Sylvia Plath

He's trying so hard not to be basic but he loves Wednesday Addams

that line about her being allergic to colors--- he felt that

regularly listens to sounds of rain and fireplaces

ye I think I'll end it here lol XD

[bethanydelleman]

Hiiiii. Wanted to say that I really love your blog hehehe.

I saw that you answered an ask about the 2005, and I wanted to know your thoughts on what I heard called the "Brontefication of Pride and Prejudice" in that movie. For a few reasons:

I love Pride and Prejudice and I love Romanticism but it is very definitely NOT a captial R Romantic novel to be sure.

Charlotte Bronte would fine "the brontefication of Pride and Prejudice" to be absolutely hilarious and I think Jane Austen would hate it lol

I haven't watched the movie but just looking at pictures from it... I can definitely see why they've called it this. It seems very much to be like a Bronte sister wrote the book instead of Austen. Which would be a fun combination (at least to me) for an original movie, but I don't work as a book adaptation.

Thank you!

I have to admit, I've never quite understood this criticism of 2005, so if someone could enlighten me that would be great. I watched this movie long before ever reading a single Brontë. I have gathered that it has something to do with the pathetic fallacy of rain during the first Darcy proposal:

But is that really Brontëification? Jane Austen does use weather for dramatic effect in her novels, Willoughby arrives for his confession chapter on a stormy night The night was cold and stormy. The wind roared round the house, and the rain beat against the windows (very Romantic of him) in Sense & Sensibility, Robert Martin and Harriet Smith see each other for the first time after the proposal letter when they are hiding from the rain in Ford's in Emma, and I have a whole post about umbrellas being used to show interest from men in Austen's novels. It's no tree being torn asunder by lightening or Heathcliff disappearing in a storm that shakes the house, but it is there.

I haven't watched many Brontë adaptations so maybe there is something I'm missing. What I noticed the most about 2005 is that people tended to stand in tableau, which doesn't seem very Brontë either. Plus, the Brontës are so different from each other! Also, Darcy in this one is clearly shy and not Byronic, though I'm not sure which Brontë hero is Byronic either.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Those who understand this critique please enlighten me.

Also, it would be hilarious to tell Charlotte Brontë about it, since she hated P&P.

[zoeology31]

Happy All-Star break! It's been a wild and exciting first half for the Twins, with a lot of colorful personalities and storylines. I've compiled all my favorite quotes from players and coaches in the first half as kind of a humorous summary:

"Maybe I'm too electric for my own good." — Royce Lewis, on his Opening Day injury (x)

"I told him, 'Carlos, what's your favorite bottle of wine under about $200?' And he said he doesn't drink. So I guess I'm off the hook." — Brock Stewart, on Correa throwing out Ohtani at home plate (x)

"We'll put Eddy in the blender a little bit and shake him up, and move him around." — Rocco Baldelli, on moving Julien out of the leadoff spot (x)

"It's bringing us a lot of hits and runs and stuff, so I'm all for it. It's a— For anyone that hasn't been following, it's a substantial... packaged... sausage, that Jeffers has been carrying around in his bag and throwing at people when we score runs and hit homers. So. I'm all for it; I'm slightly concerned as—I'm not even an adult, but, slightly concerned as more of an adult than maybe some of the people in the other room—that the package is going to open up, and the thing hasn't been refrigerated in many days, and there's no doubt that when that thing opens up, whoever's touching it is in deep trouble. That thing is— there's no doubt in my mind that we are carrying around something that is very, very unhealthy to the human body." — Rocco Baldelli, on the Twins' rally sausage (x)

"It's the idea of the sausage. It's the meaning behind the sausage. We're going to learn more about the sausage as the days go by." — Ryan Jeffers, on the Twins' rally sausage (x)

"I'm not a big fan of the Guardians." — Royce Lewis, on ranking his career home runs (x)

"I was carrying it the whole series waiting to get in. Probably eighth-ish time that I've ridden. First time I tipped the driver, though." — Steven Okert, on tipping the Nationals' bullpen cart driver (x)

"I just happened to look back to see where AK was, and then I saw AK, and he's like, 'Yeah!' And I was like, 'YEEEAAAHHH!' He got me going." — Byron Buxton, on Kirilloff's go-ahead homer (x)

"For me, he lives on another planet. He's fucking great with his hands." — Jhoan Duran, on Correa's tagging skills (x)

"He looked like one of those assassins from Breaking Bad." — Ryan Jeffers, on López's new facial hair (x)

"Not superstitious, just a little stitious." — Pablo López, quoting The Office, on changing his facial hair (x)

"He's really bald. Like shinily bald. I think it's because he lost the facial hair." — Ryan Jeffers, on Lewis's return to the team (x)

"I played a lot of Guitar Hero when I was growing up, so I knew what to do with it." — Carlos Correa, on the Prince guitar home run celebration (x)

"Hell yeah, I was surprised! I felt it go in my glove, but my whole arm kind of went over, so I didn't know what I would be bringing back. I didn't expect to bring back a baseball, so when I looked and I had it, I was like, 'Dang, that's not bad.'" — Austin Martin, on his home run-robbing catch (x)

"I told Pop today: Hey, I don't do that slump thing. That's not a real thing for me." — Royce Lewis, on going 0-for-5 the previous day (x)

"Pete who? I didn't talk to Pete today." — Rocco Baldelli, on Ober's complete game (x)

"I think we're playing good, and all the team, we feel sexy." — Christian Vázquez, on winning the series vs the Astros (x)

"I mean, it's a joke. It's a joke. Yeah, I thought I hit the ball hard yesterday and it was like 99. I don't understand it. If he hits one near me and I'm at first base, he's going to kill me." — Brooks Lee, on Wallner's team-leading exit velocities (x)

---

I love these guys. What's your favorite quote from the first half, and are there any that I missed?

[pynkhues]

Do you think that Louis was actually more aware of his sexual preferences in the 1910s than he let on with Daniel in ep1? I only wonder because he calls himself queer not long after to Lestat (s1.02?) and definitely knows that Lestat’s sexuality is different than his. Maybe he’s just more honest with himself since they got together?

Oh, yeah, I think he absolutely knew. I talked about it a bit in this post, but Louis' ambiguity around his sexual history is in many ways a very gothic / byronic hero trope and the show deliberately plays with that with Jonah's introduction in 1.03 (and again, I always interpret the bayou in New Orleans that he and Jonah go to to be a gay hook up site that Louis' familiar with in that ep, something that's kind of built on when he starts cruising at gay hook up sites in both Paris in the 40s and San Francisco in the 70s). Even without Jonah though, Louis pretty much explicitly states in 1.01 that he's using Lily as cover for his sexuality, and in the shot where he says that, he's literally cruising / being cruised by a man.

The only reason Louis doesn't hook up with that guy instead of Lily that night is the guy chickens out. Louis knew what his sexuality was looong before Lestat, and I actually don't even think he was particularly closeted between this man, Jonah, and the fact that it's clearly a poorly kept secret in the du Lac family.

I think the difference with Lestat isn't that Louis' finally with a man / in a queer relationship, hell, I don't even think it's the love - his and Jonah's hearts were dancing! - I think it's the intensity of that love and that Lestat and him get to be and have a family together. That level of domesticity is someting Louis thought his sexuality would prohibit for him, and that is, I think, what's new for him in his understanding of himself and his sexuality.

[australet789]

The people who are pushing for putting Alastor into a romantic relationship with anyone are really sleeping on the potential. Imagine Alastor finally being forced to say: "You are my FRIEND." with all the energy of a byronic romance novel hero confessing their love while looking like proverbial deer in the headlights. And maybe some people wouldn't even realize how much of a big deal that is, but the people who really know him, the ones who actually matter, realizing just how much he had to unbend to speak those words. Oh, the drama!!

exactly!

Like EVERYONE in the hotel know he is creepy (words by Angel Dust) and that he likes suffering (words by Charlie). The only time we have seen him being honest is with Niffty and i doubt she is going to tell anyone

So i kind of want a whole "BECAUSE I DO CARE" and everyone and their mom being like ":0", including Charlie xD

[esther-dot]

I feel like I'm going crazy with the Jon question. He's a Byronic hero, of course he's slightly unconventionally handsome but only once you notice him glowering, and maybe conventional only in a literary/classical sense. The reason Timothee Chalamet tends to be facecast as him (other than period-appropriate films) is because other than Adam Driver, he's one of the few tangentially-looking Byronic heroes around (especially as Paul Atreides). Adam Driver is too old for a Jon though it's a relevant comparison because people either think he's very handsome or very ugly. Jon's a bastard, but he's spiritually formidable, meaning he's got to have that visual duality.

Plus it's totally a Beauty and the Beast thing. Come onnnn. He's probably very beautiful to Sansa, but only once she looks closer, which is basically the whole theme of Jonsa, right? It's that lack of closeness and Jon as a functional ward which makes it possible.

The hypocrisy about Jon's looks is absolutely astounding to me. Like, I think they project their anxieties onto Sansa. Jon can be horse-faced and homely and loved for it.

“Jon's a bastard, but he's spiritually formidable, meaning he's got to have that visual duality.”

I love that description, anon! That’s kinda what I was trying to talk about here with the Byronic Hero quotes, there’s an appeal there, although it isn’t necessarily a universally recognized one. Reading your ask reminded me that if you aren't familiar with the Byronic hero idea, the insistence that Jon isn't traditionally attractive might seem random rather than a reflection of the literary context Martin created him in. Mr Rochester is a Byronic hero who (I think?) exists in the popular consciousness due to relatively recent adaptions, and here is how he is described:

Mr. Rochester, as he sat in his damask-covered chair, looked different to what I had seen him look before; not quite so stern—much less gloomy. There was a smile on his lips, and his eyes sparkled, whether with wine or not, I am not sure; but I think it very probable. He was, in short, in his after-dinner mood; more expanded and genial, and also more self-indulgent than the frigid and rigid temper of the morning; still he looked preciously grim, cushioning his massive head against the swelling back of his chair, and receiving the light of the fire on his granite-hewn features, and in his great, dark eyes; for he had great, dark eyes, and very fine eyes, too—not without a certain change in their depths sometimes, which, if it was not softness, reminded you, at least, of that feeling.

He had been looking two minutes at the fire, and I had been looking the same length of time at him, when, turning suddenly, he caught my gaze fastened on his physiognomy.

“You examine me, Miss Eyre,” said he: “do you think me handsome?”

I should, if I had deliberated, have replied to this question by something conventionally vague and polite; but the answer somehow slipped from my tongue before I was aware—“No, sir.”

“Ah! By my word! there is something singular about you,” said he: “you have the air of a little nonnette; quaint, quiet, grave, and simple, as you sit with your hands before you, and your eyes generally bent on the carpet (except, by-the-bye, when they are directed piercingly to my face; as just now, for instance); and when one asks you a question, or makes a remark to which you are obliged to reply, you rap out a round rejoinder, which, if not blunt, is at least brusque. What do you mean by it?”

“Sir, I was too plain; I beg your pardon. I ought to have replied that it was not easy to give an impromptu answer to a question about appearances; that tastes mostly differ; and that beauty is of little consequence, or something of that sort.”

“You ought to have replied no such thing. Beauty of little consequence, indeed! And so, under pretence of softening the previous outrage, of stroking and soothing me into placidity, you stick a sly penknife under my ear! Go on: what fault do you find with me, pray? I suppose I have all my limbs and all my features like any other man?”

“Mr. Rochester, allow me to disown my first answer: I intended no pointed repartee: it was only a blunder.”

“Just so: I think so: and you shall be answerable for it. Criticise me: does my forehead not please you?”

He lifted up the sable waves of hair which lay horizontally over his brow, and showed a solid enough mass of intellectual organs, but an abrupt deficiency where the suave sign of benevolence should have risen.

“Now, ma’am, am I a fool?”

“Far from it, sir. You would, perhaps, think me rude if I inquired in return whether you are a philanthropist?”

“There again! Another stick of the penknife, when she pretended to pat my head: and that is because I said I did not like the society of children and old women (low be it spoken!). No, young lady, I am not a general philanthropist; but I bear a conscience;” and he pointed to the prominences which are said to indicate that faculty, and which, fortunately for him, were sufficiently conspicuous; giving, indeed, a marked breadth to the upper part of his head: “and, besides, I once had a kind of rude tenderness of heart. When I was as old as you, I was a feeling fellow enough; partial to the unfledged, unfostered, and unlucky; but Fortune has knocked me about since: she has even kneaded me with her knuckles, and now I flatter myself I am hard and tough as an India-rubber ball; pervious, though, through a chink or two still, and with one sentient point in the middle of the lump. Yes: does that leave hope for me?”

“Hope of what, sir?”

“Of my final re-transformation from India-rubber back to flesh?”

“Decidedly he has had too much wine,” I thought; and I did not know what answer to make to his queer question: how could I tell whether he was capable of being re-transformed?

“You looked very much puzzled, Miss Eyre; and though you are not pretty any more than I am handsome, yet a puzzled air becomes you; besides, it is convenient, for it keeps those searching eyes of yours away from my physiognomy, and busies them with the worsted flowers of the rug; so puzzle on. Young lady, I am disposed to be gregarious and communicative to-night.”

With this announcement he rose from his chair, and stood, leaning his arm on the marble mantelpiece: in that attitude his shape was seen plainly as well as his face; his unusual breadth of chest, disproportionate almost to his length of limb. I am sure most people would have thought him an ugly man; yet there was so much unconscious pride in his port; so much ease in his demeanour; such a look of complete indifference to his own external appearance; so haughty a reliance on the power of other qualities, intrinsic or adventitious, to atone for the lack of mere personal attractiveness, that, in looking at him, one inevitably shared the indifference, and, even in a blind, imperfect sense, put faith in the confidence.

Jon is a much better man than Mr Rochester, but you can see some pertinent ideas here. I'll link @cappymightwrite's Byronic Hero metas (1, 2, 3) if anyone is interested in further reading on the topic.

Regardless of where you fall on the question, Jon and Sansa's looks are plot relevant (mentioned it a little here ). Sansa’s Tully looks are obviously very important because looking like Cat has made LF fixate on her, so these aren’t incidental details, they’re very clear, deliberate descriptions by the author and matter to the story now and in the future. Obviously there’s truth to the expression “beauty is in the eye of the beholder,” and everyone can go where they want with this but considering how plot relevant their designated look is, it’s pretty clear the author purposefully chose it.

The Jonsa aspect is interesting because we’ve all scratched our heads at the Freudian implication (and then Kit mentioned Freud which shocked amused confused us!) and I’ve seen many show Jonsas admit they didn’t find show Jon particularly attractive until s6, despite Kit being recognized as very attractive. Maybe we all just have a thing for the manbun, but I think a big part of it was that suddenly, he was doing things we found attractive. Staring at Sansa with hearts in his eyes, being open and vulnerable in a way we hadn’t seen before, arguing with a peer the way we hadn’t seen before, getting angry and articulating it, making promises to protect her, trying to offer her reassurances, feeling insecure and desperate, riding out onto a field alone to save his brother, nearly beating a man to death, winning back his home, offering trust and forgiveness. There was something in Jon that season that appealed to us, it wasn’t just his face. And I think something like that will happen for Sansa too.

I mentioned Sansa’s crushes were both “knight” figures, her life experiences have evolved that original idea of what a knight is, and although she is a compassionate person, she now thinks she needs someone with a dangerous edge to protect her, so I don’t think she’ll be struck by Jon’s face beyond it meaning safety, seeing her father in it 😬 family, but then as Jon helps win her home back, if she finds out he chopped of Slynt’s head, if he gives her another head (LF!), it’s gonna tap into knight, the romanticized notion she had of them being chivalrous (because Jon will treat her well), the hero she prayed for (there are no heroes -> fetch me a block), and also that dangerous figure who would never harm her but is fully capable of killing the monsters for her.

Also, I absolutely agree about the Beauty and the Beast idea, I started writing about Jon as the Beast/Bear/Death and have lost the draft. It’s definitely where Martin is going though!

[kylesvariouslistsandstuff]

I think that's very nice.

The current leader of Walt Disney Animation Studios and the director of THE WILD ROBOT having this encouraging exchange.

It's cool in that Sanders had spent a long while at WDAS, making pivotal contributions to beloved films like BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, THE LION KING, and MULAN before eventually writing-directing - alongside Dean DeBlois - the equally beloved LILO & STITCH. His would-be sophomore feature, AMERICAN DOG, was derailed by changing leadership at Disney Animation. Namely John Lasseter and Ed Catmull, the former whom reportedly greatly disliked LILO & STITCH. Chris departed from WDAS around late 2006/early 2007, and directed much the rest of his all-animated filmography at DreamWorks, THE WILD ROBOT included.

Bush came to WDAS during the Lasseter administration, but that was well after Chris left. His earliest credit was BIG HERO 6, released all the way back in 2014. Bush often worked with one Byron Howard too, who was also vital to Chris' LILO & STITCH back in the day. It was Byron who - alongside director Chris Williams - ended up taking over AMERICAN DOG, after Lasseter took Sanders off the movie, whereupon it would be morphed into BOLT.

Bush would later co-direct ZOOTOPIA with Howard, and then graduate to main director on Howard's ENCANTO. Now, he and Howard are directing ZOOTOPIA 2... So, it's neat how there's connections between them on these levels. Bush works well with Byron, and Byron has a history with Sanders.

And for such good words and well wishes, too. Goes to show that there may be different animation studios owned by different massive conglomerates, whether they're Disney or Comcast or some other giant... But the creative folks are all in the same trench together.

Maybe some folks ought to realize that, too, especially now as The Animation Guild are trying to make things fairer for the industry's workers...