#anyways just needed to get that out. Character I love lost in a poll soooooo

[therealsirsticker]

I no longer believe in democracy.

[spnfanficpond]

December 2019 Pond LiveChat Recap - Structuring Longer Plots

We had a great time chatting with @jhoomwrites​, today! Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your wisdom and experience!

Our chat was all about structuring longer plots, filler vs plot, and the different types of structures that are out there. (Mostly, we talked about how we don’t always have a structure in mind when we’re writing, and how we deal with it when a story breaks apart the structure we’d so carefully constructed.) A rundown of the chat, as well as general Pond news, is below the cut!

For those who don’t know her, Ashley is an avid writer, not just of fan fiction. She’s popular on Tumblr and AO3 for Destiel stories of all lengths, from little emoji ficlets she bangs out from requests (where followers send her a short string of emojis and she writes a story using them all) up to epic stories. She’s currently working on a hockey fan fiction that was her NaNoWriMo project, but with 120 SPN works on AO3, we’ve got plenty to read while she’s distracted with her hockey boys! (I’ve convinced her to be a member of the Pond, so hopefully we’ll see her around a lot in the future!)

We started off talking about how long our fics can get ( @katehuntington​ won with her Sullivan Series, which is currently at 570k), and whether we’re planners or pansters or a mix. Kate and Ashley are both kind of mixed, while @mrswhozeewhatsis​ has never successfully outlined a story, yet. 

Q: Was My Liege Lord (her longest at around 80k) planned or pansted?

Ashley: It was both. I had planned out some things, but then I got new ideas as I went that I wanted to explore and it padded out the length. I had a whole fic worth of plans, but just the amount of time in their lives I ended up covering necessitated adding things. Kate: I do that too. I stick to the plan, but I add soooooo much stuff along the way.

Q: When you write, and plan out a story, do you use a particular structure?

Ashley: I haven't written out a plan for a fic in some time, but I was really consistent with the style I used for a while. I would do a chart with the main plot points to the left, and then details (excerpt of dialogues, notes about specific scenes, etc) to the right. Here’s an example:

Ashley: It helps me when I get ideas later, I can find parts in the story by looking to the left and then add notes. It's my favorite way to plan out a story, especially if I know it will be multiple chapters and if I might not be starting it any time soon. This is much nicer than the outline for the story I'm working on now, which is just a list of events in chronological order (and another list of "things i could add but i don't know where this goes"). I wrote the outline about a day before I started so I didn't need as much structure.

Q: Having a plan helps, then?

Ashley: I didn't used to plan, but then I started a multi-chapter fic and realized...... I don't have an ending. So, I like to plan that out to make sure I have an actual beginning, middle, and end. Michelle: When I start, I have an idea and an ending. That’s it. All my stories have the same ending, though: And then they kissed and lived happily ever after!

Kate: It does give freedom, not having a detailed outline.

Ashley: That is true, it does make me sad when I get somewhere in the outline and there's something I'd liked, that I'd wanted to include, but it doesn't work anymore and I have to scrap it. Gotta balance sticking to the outline vs adapting to how the tone/characters have developed.

Q: Is your planning method something you learned, or something you developed? And do you use the same structure for all of your stories?

Ashley: Something I developed. I haven't had any real training or instruction in writing. I was struggling with longer fics being unorganized and not coming together at the end, so I needed something for myself. I like making charts, so I figured that was a good way to start! lol It's not something I do as much, anymore. It was a great tool when I started doing it, and I did it for years... but possibly because I've gained more writing experience with longer stories, I don't need to do it anymore. I start a fic with a general idea, I figure out where that idea is going, and start writing. I do more of a mental checklist now. Of course, for original stories, things I hope to one day publish, I will still outline.

Q: Do parts of your structure have names? A quick Google search on how to structure novels brought back about a lot of different methods for structuring a novel, all with different numbers of steps. Each step had a general idea, like rising action, climax, falling action, etc. I guess I mean, what parts of a story do you feel need to be there for it to work? What are the parts of your structure?

Ashley: Having never paid particular attention in my English classes, I would be hard pressed to put names on different parts of my story structure. I view it as beginning (set up, putting things in place), middle (the actual story more or less, all of the action), and ending (wrapping things up, resolution).

Q: When you half wing it and the story is coming along, and then you hit a plot hole, how do you handle that? 

Ashley: Well uh... **points vaguely towards abandoned WIPs** it can be rough. I do have some people I work with in terms of brainstorming. And if I get stuck with a fic I'm committed to, that I'm enjoying writing, then I talk it through with them. Sometimes, those issues are coming up--not because the story wasn't outlined--but more because I've just lost that spark of interest that I had before, and it's time to move on, anyway.

Q: There was a question submitted to the Pond by @kittenofdoomage​ about filler vs. plot.

Ashley: I think that's a real issue I face, filler vs plot. For some stories, I feel like I write a chapter and then can't really see what it adds to the story except maybe giving more characterization. My Liege Lord, I can think of some examples... and sometimes those things are cool, they're fun little ideas to explore and that's the only universe you could do it in, so you do it maybe for your own sake more than the story's. I think there's also a difference between reader and writer perceptions of what's filler. For my current project, there are scenes I wanted to include because I felt they were necessary to the plot, but I got the impression from people I'd polled that they would not be interested in those scenes (basically it's a romance and I was going to include things that were not directly related to the romance aspect and they said if it was more than a few paragraphs or so they didn't care). Michelle: I struggled with that with The Babysitter. Almost half of that fic is flashbacks to when the brothers were growing up and how their relationship with the reader developed. I considered cutting them all, but the fic felt thin. Sometimes, I'd pop a flashback chapter in there just to slow down the action in the present a bit, if you know what I mean. Like, chapter X is the night before the big battle, and chapter Y is the big battle, but it felt rushed to just go from X to Y, so I stuck D in between them. Ashley: Yeah, pacing is important, so the "filler" can help regulate that. It might also depend on if you view stories as about the plot or about the characters. If you view it as plot, then yes, you don't want that non-plot filler. If you view it as characters, then the filler doesn't necessarily move the story, but it adds depth and dimension to the characters and makes you appreciate them more. (I mean... I love the characters so much, I'd watch an episode of them just doing chores around the bunker...no plot, just them.) Kate: I just write what I feel like is right. Plus, I’m a sucker for a slow burn myself, so I’m not scared to let the readers wait.  I like to use fillers as a stairway to the big reveal or moment. What I love even more is to put a lot of foreshadowing in there, so when they read it the second time, they go: oh! Rhi: The thing is that I've found is that filler serves a lot of purposes. As mentioned above it's great for dropping a bit of foreshadowing. It's also great for expanding your background and making your characters more than two dimensional. It also gives your readers a breather. Especially if it's a heavy plot. I often find myself rambling in filler, which is where rereading is key. With longer stories, I have a brief outline of what I want. Sometimes I'll write the major points first, the ending etc then follow up with the filler. On occasion, your filler will end up imploding your plans but that's cool. That's when you either roll with it or take a break and neither of those are bad choices. It depends on the individual.

Q: (In one of the articles linked below) Peter Behrens mentioned a novel idea. He basically said he doesn’t worry about structure until the revision stage. He writes what he wants to, and then when he’s revising, he tweaks the story to fit whatever structure it fits to best.

Ashley: I do like that, and that's something that @unforth-ninawaters​ has mentioned. We're working on shorter stories that would need to be under 7.5k and I said I don't know if I could hit that. She said to write the whole story, even if it's longer, and then have someone edit it with an eye to shorten it, if necessary, and you'll probably end up with a tighter story that way. So, basically, that's how I view writing things, now. I write what I want to write for the story, and if it needs to go, it'll disappear later in the editing process. But what if it does belong? Well, then it's there, already. And yes on slow burns... for fic, it's a staple, and for WIPs, it's part of the lure, the draw in, as a reader--knowing that maybe they will maybe they won't hook up this week.

To close out the chat, we talked about the story structures listed in the following two links:

How to find your novel’s structure - This article discusses the traditional 5-stage plot structure (exposition, rising action, climax, falling action and resolution) and the 3-act structure (setup, confrontation, resolution), as well as some other points, like how characterization can affect structure.

Writing Cooperative -  Use a story structure to make writing your novel a lot easier - This article lists several structures, and includes links to read more about each one and their strengths and weaknesses. Different stories might do better under different structures, too. A romance novel wouldn’t necessarily need the 12 steps in The Hero’s Journey.

These links are definitely worth checking out if you have any fears or concerns about your story’s structure!

Next month we’re going to talk about Real People Fiction! We’re still looking for a guest speaker, so if anyone is interested, send a message to @mrswhozeewhatsis​!! Date and time to be announced!

General Pond Updates and Reminders

What we’ve got cooking up next: Not much, at the moment, since everyone is busy, so we’re just trying to keep up with the day-to-day at the moment! Our to do list is still long, though, and will not be neglected forever! Next up is organizing the tagging system on the blog to make it easier for readers to find the stories they’re interesting in and for writers to find the help they’re looking for!

Reminders:

Angel Fish Award nominations are accepted all month long! No need to wait to tell us how much you liked a fellow Fish’s work!  IF YOU HAVE SENT IN A NOMINATION, BUT HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE CONFIRMING WE RECEIVED IT, WE DIDN’T GET IT. Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!

Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!

Say hi to November’s New Members! (If we missed someone, let us know!)

Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the Skype chat room/discord general channel and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details!  The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!

We’re looking for a guest speaker for January to talk about RPF! If you know of an RPF writer that you’d like to hear from, let us know!!