#anty-williza

[toladlugopiska]

Dlaczego nie lubię Williama :P

Mówcie, co chcecie, ale oglądając końcową rozmowę Elizy z Williamem z odcinka S03E06, doznałam nieprzyjemnego skojarzenia z typem, który namawia kobietę do niezobowiązującego romansu, mimo że w domu czeka na niego żona. Bo co komu szkodzi, skoro potencjalna kochanka: a) nie lubi tejże żony, b) nie zważa na konwenanse. Pan chce, pan ma potrzeby, pan nie będzie zważał na uczucia innych. Na szczęście Eliza ma więcej rozumu w głowie i stawia właściwe pytanie: "A co na to Arabella?" - od razu widać, kto tu kieruje się właściwymi pobudkami.

[auntieinthemushroomhat]

Analysing Why Williza Wouldn't Have Worked Out Through The Lens of a Pop Song

Hey, hi, hello!

This is not a post for the Willizas lol

I have no idea how many Stela Cole fans are among the Scarleteers, or, well, the ScarNashers.

This, I know it's a surprise, is not about Patrick and Eliza for once, but Eliza and William, though not in the best light, if that makes up for it, folks.

Stela has a new song called Blood Orange Wine and the lyrics kind of reminded me of Eliza's and William's relationship and how it lowkey went up in flames.

(I do feel I should acknowledge that, as far as I know, Stela's song is about a toxic relationship, which I don't think Eliza's and William's was, but if some of the lyrics fit, what can ya do?)

For your enjoyment:

1, just the title, Blood Orange Wine, itself: Eliza likes to drink wine, not beer, although she does drink whiskey, but usually in the presence of men eg. William, Patrick and probably Moses too (gosh I miss him)

2, I know it wasn't this extreme in the show, buuuut He knew the reasons I was scared of love - she was scared of entering a relationship with William, and I think the the reasons for that are:

a, he was her only family outside of Ivy, if it didn't work out, she would absolutely lose him (which happened in the end, and she didn't really get to have a say in the matter)

b, he was the only person she had ever felt romantic feelings for up until then

c, she had never been in a relationship, whereas William had been known for dallying with actresses, hell, he even courted her childhood bully

d, his image of the wife he wanted to marry differed so much from who Eliza is as a person, and Eliza, rightfully, didn't want to change herself completely just to fit that image

3, Told me he'd catch me if I fell, then he went running off - he confessed his love then upped and left, aka ran off, even though they were supposed to stick together since they were practically family, especially post-Henry's death

4, Knife to my throat until I opened up - again, I don't mean it literally, but he confessed his love, probably knowing Eliza wasn't ready, especially with the bomb that he was leaving for a year

5, He left me bleeding, now I'm freaking out - in that he left her to her own devices in regards to:

a, working out her feelings

b, knowing she was struggling to get cases at Nash & Sons and that she would no longer have access to Scotland Yard the same way without him, even with Fitzroy there (it's a bit redeeming though that he knew Nash was back to help Eliza)

c, knowing she had suffered a probably traumatic experience of not knowing whether he would live or die after getting shot

d, freaking out, as in she is sulking, or as she calls it, brooding, which is totally understandable, in my opinion, looking at the circumstances

6, Oh, I'm losing my forever, he only lets me down

a, Eliza and William were supposed to be endgame (still, I'm glad it didn't happen), they were each other's "forevers" right until they weren't

b, he only lets me down - she had to manipulate him in order to get him to help her, even though she needed his help, it wasn't (just) about her ambition

7, Wrapped around his finger, now my finger's wrapped around this glass

a, remember how important it was whenever they held hands or even their fingers touched?

b, in season 1, she regularly used her more womanly red dress to get him to do what she wanted, aka had him wrapped around her finger, because he wouldn't have helped her earn a living otherwise

Honestly, the more I wrote for this, the angrier I got. I still love William as a character, but they kinda fucked up his whole arc. Respect to Stuart for leaving, even if it wasn't because he saw that this would lead nowhere.

All of this, I think, supports why Patrick is a much better match for Eliza, even just as a friend and partner, but also as a potential love interest.

[blacklister214]

ScarNash in 2x04 (Miss Scarlet & the Duke)

Even in his introductory episode, everything Patrick does makes him better than William as Eliza's love interest.

Demonstrating respect vs disrespect:

William: Tries to shut her out of her own investigation. Acts like it is a big favor he's been manipulated into when he lets her listen to Fitzroy's findings. Don't get me wrong, Eliza does try to manipulate William from time to time, but 1) he don't leave her a lot of other options and 2) it's his go-to assumption. Sometimes Eliza is actually hurt or upset with him. Sometimes...Actually all the time she would like a little freaking respect thrown her way.

Patrick: Offers to shake her hand upon introduction. Asks her to work for him and is so committed he is willing to dedicate time and funds to get his way. Is so impressed with her progress he concocts a plan to steal her results. He acknowledges poaching the results from her in front the client, his staff and other witnesses, rather than passing them off as his purely own.

Compatible vs incompatible methods:

William: Relies on his position at Scotland Yard both to convince Eliza to turn over the files, and to pull Fitzroy into his investigation. Eliza has no authority to wield.

Patrick: Patrick blackmails Sinclaire. Goes undercover as Inspector Bates. Tries to trick Eliza using Sinclaire. Eliza blackmails Potts, goes undercover as Miss Belfry, DOES trick Patrick using Sinclaire.

Expressions of Admiration/Insults:

William: Calls her, in front of Ivy and Potts, "an opportunist with no thought for anything other than her own gain" and brings up Potts' insults: "impossible, untrustworthy, and unchristian." Claims that he's praised her before, but does not do it at any point in this episode. Instead of complimenting her trick with Sinclaire, he belittles her having trusted him in the past. Eliza, on the other hand, does express admiration for his rescue of Fitzroy, which William manages to be insulted by.

Patrick: Calls her "determined, ambitious, hungry. The holy trinity." Calls them "kindred spirits". Calls her "impressive" in front of the room, even when he thinks he has beaten her. Congratulates her in person on her "magnificent win" after realizing he got his ass kicked and says "well played." Responds to her rubbing salt in wound by saying "What a woman."

Even as the antagonist, he is the better option.

[irontrashglitter]

some williza fans (not all) really just liked will and tolerated eliza huh

[blacklister214]

To quote Oscar Hammerstein II, "Because these daft and dewey eyed dopes keep building up impossible hopes, Impossible things are happening every day!"

My only regret is that I really wanted a Patrick/William conversation about Eliza. But whatever VICTORY IS OURS!

Season 5 of MSATD Announced

WE HAVE A SEASON 5 ANNOUNCEMENT

AND NO DUKE

WHICH MEANS WE MAY HAVE MANIFESTED SCARNASH INTO EXISTENCE.

[toladlugopiska]

Rewatch

Oglądam od początku i wcale nie widzę w Elizie jakiegoś szalonego romantycznego porywu.

Rozumiem, że ludzie chcą ich widzieć w parze. William jest przystojny.

ALE

To widać, że Eliza stawia pracę na pierwszym miejscu. William czasem może budzić jakieś drgania w podbrzuszu, ale serce i głowa Elizy zajęte są pracą. To ona unika bliskości. To ona mówi STOP. IMO od początku twórcy nam dają do zrozumienia, że nic z tego związku nie będzie. Eliza za każdym razem robi krok w tył, bo wolność podejmowania decyzji jest dla niej najważniejsza. William proponuje zostanie przyjaciółmi, bo nie znosi wybryków Elizy i ma dość upokorzeń.

Ilekroć jest szansa na rozwój relacji, ktoś wciska hamulec - zwykle jest to Eliza.

To nie jest zabawa w kotka i myszkę z widzami. To jest świadomy sposób prowadzenia tej historii.

I've been watching from the beginning and I don't see some crazy romantic impulse in Eliza at all. I understand that people want to see them as a couple. William is handsome. BUT It's clear Eliza is putting work first. William may occasionally arouse some vibrations in the lower abdomen, but Eliza's heart and head are occupied with work. She is the one who avoids proximity. She is the one who says STOP.

IMO from the beginning the creators let us know that nothing will come of this relationship. Eliza takes a step back every time because the freedom to make decisions is the most important thing for her. William proposes to stay friends because he can't stand Eliza's antics and is sick of being humiliated. Whenever there is a chance for a relationship to develop, someone puts the brakes on - usually it is Eliza. This is not a cat-and-mouse game with the audience. This is a conscious way of running the story.

[amoratrix]

A delight from the first meetings!

2 x 04

[amoratrix]

Eliza says what she really needs (and it's not William :P).

[toladlugopiska]

"Gdy poznasz właściwego mężczyznę, natura zrobi swoje" (William do Elizy, 1x5)

Nie zrobiła. Czyli to nie ty jesteś tym właściwym, Williamie.

:P

‘When you meet the right man, nature will do its work’ (William to Eliza, 1x5). She didn't. Which means you're not the right one, William.

:P

[blacklister214]

Miss Scarlet & the Douche: 1x01

I saw on Youtube someone calling the show this and I thought it might be fun to go back and examine the reasons I never took and shine to William Wellington as Eliza's love interest. I plan to do one for every episode he appears in. This list is purely from 1x01! Enjoy!

Attempts to avoid Eliza by pretending to be in meeting

Ignores her concerns about her alcoholic father’s whereabouts

Judges the fact that she is worried about their household finances

Calls the thing she has been trying to do for the ten years he’s known her as “a little hobby”

Smugly says, “Being a detective is a job for a man, Eliza.”

When she is nearly being given an involuntary vaginal examination he does not give a damn about the traumatic arrest and assault committed by his organization. His first concern is for his own reputation, despite the fact it isn’t exactly sterling

Locks her in a cell, despite not having done anything illegal, to teach her a lesson about her place in society

Screams at her for “dabbling in men’s affairs.” Acts like the same damn thing wouldn’t have happened with a male PI

Refuses to help either Eliza or the poor woman being sent to an asylum

Is only sympathetic when Eliza calls herself “Stupid” and “Foolish”

No "good job" for catching a dangerous criminal on her own, just threats of future arrest

No "good job" for figuring out his case after perusing the file for one minute, just an insistence he would have figured it out himself

[toladlugopiska]

Myśli // Thoughts

Od pierwszej chwili, gdy Nash się pojawił, myślałam o nim: "O, to jest mężczyzna, o którego William może być zazdrosny". Ale William nie był zazdrosny - to Nash był bardziej zainteresowany tym, co łączy Elizę i Williama. William interesował się tylko sobą. Wycierał łóżka różnych "dam", a największy egoizm pokazał, gdy związał się z Arabellą i jeszcze stale wypominał ten fakt Elizie, by na sam koniec zaproponować spotkania bez Arabelli.

O czymkolwiek nie zaczyna rozmawiać z Elizą - zaraz się kłócą. Cokolwiek ona zrobi - William interpretuje to źle.

From the first moment Nash appeared, I thought of him: ‘Oh, this is a man William might be jealous of’. But William wasn't jealous - it was Nash who was more interested in what Eliza and William had in common. William was only interested in himself. He wiped the beds of various ‘ladies’, and showed his greatest selfishness when he hooked up with Arabella and yet constantly reproached Eliza for this fact, only to propose meetings without Arabella at the very end. Whatever he doesn't start talking to Eliza about - they immediately argue. Whatever she does - William interprets it wrong.

***

Eliza x Patrick - to od pierwszej chwili NIE JEST platoniczne. Jego wzrok, jego zainteresowanie, jego upór, jego postawa, wcale nienacechowane erotycznie słowa: "wolę, żebyś przyszła do mnie dobrowolnie".

Nash oswoił Elizę jak dzikie zwierzę. To jest coś, czego William nie umiał zrobić - zawsze udawało mu się sprowokować Elizę do bycia mniej fajną. Nash czyni ją lepszą, tak jak ona czyni lepszym jego.

A ona mu na to pozwala. Pozwala, żeby ją uczył, dawał wskazówki i rozśmieszał.

Interesował się nią już wcześniej, ale mijały dni i miesiące, a ona ciągle była detektywką - to nie było hobby i szukanie piesków. Zapewniał jej klientów.

Od razu ją scharakteryzował: "determined, ambitious, hungry" (przetłumaczone w Polsce jako „głodny sukcesu”, w oryginale jest bardziej wieloznaczne).

Eliza x Patrick - it IS NOT platonic from the first moment. His gaze, his interest, his insistence, his attitude, his not at all erotic words: ‘I prefer you to come to me voluntarily’. Nash has tamed Eliza like a wild animal. This is something William couldn't do - he always managed to provoke Eliza into being less cool. Nash makes her better, just as she makes him better. And she lets him do it. She lets him teach her, give her tips and make her laugh. He had been interested in her before, but days and months passed and she was still a detective - it wasn't a hobby and looking for doggies. He provided her with clients. He immediately characterised her: ‘determined, ambitious, hungry’ (translated in Poland as ‘hungry for success’, in the original it is more ambiguous).

***

Jeśli chodzi o Williama, to nie mogę się oprzeć wrażeniu, że cała ta "miłość" polega tylko na tym, że między nimi buzuje frustracja seksualna. W dzisiejszych czasach przespaliby się ze sobą parę razy i byłoby po miłości.

(Oczywiście pamiętam też o wspólnej przeszłości i ojcu Elizy. To wystarczy na przyjaźń.)

As for William, I can't help feeling that all this ‘love’ is just about sexual frustration bubbling up between them. These days they would have slept together a few times and it would be over love. (Of course, I also remember the shared past and Eliza's father. This is enough for friendship.)

[blacklister214]

Excellent Points. I would definitely agree that that later season William is much less awful than early season William. But the thing is even if he grows completely out the sexism, inferiority complex, and develops the communication and trust necessary for a healthy relationship with Eliza, there are still reasons he doesn't belong with her.

William is correct, he can't be a police officer and married to Eliza and Arabella is correct, Eliza is not leaving her career. The only marriage Eliza can handle is one with a partner PI or a full-time day dad. There are issues for William in either of those roles.

William admits he will never be comfortable with Eliza in danger. Many a fictional and nonfictional spouse has been not been able to live with the anxiety of their partner in constant mortal peril. He can't be with Eliza all the time, and I'm not sure spending the rest of life in a stress state is fair to him.

William likes an orderly, routine life. They established this is 2x05. Eliza likes a chaotic, challenging one.

William is not naturally ambitious. He is driven by external rewards like promotions or beating Eliza. He works hard, but at the end of the day it is just a job. Eliza on the other hand is ambitious and driven by her work. Detective work for her isn't vocational as it is for William, it is a calling. Even if they worked together it would become very frustrating for him to want to quit for the day and Eliza wanting to push on.

William has an important future within Scotland Yard. While William is not, an extraordinary detective, but he is an incredible mentor to Fitzroy and potentially an agent of social change within the organization. Scotland Yard is an important institution with a lot of problems. As such a respected member of that group, William is in a position to affect real change on the lives of the detectives training under him, and on the culture as a whole. William quitting for Eliza's sake isn't much better than her quitting for his.

Thoughts about Eliza x William and Nash

As we have come to the end of season four of MSATD, I have been rethinking some of the aspects of the show. From the very beginning of the show, I was a hardcore Eliza x William shipper, as I think most people were, but recently I have certain reservations about this ship and it's all Patrick Nash's fault.

I have always been a fan of William as a character as I think about his character arc and the development he has gone through over the season. I rewatched parts of season one recently, the end of season one, and yikes he really was just saying things. However, William has grown and he has certainly become more supportive of Eliza’s career, going so far as to go out of his way to help her and compliment her skills when she doubts herself. I don't dislike William and Eliza as a couple now, but I find that they are no longer the most intriguing option for me anymore though I know they are almost certainly going to be endgame. Perhaps they could be enough for me in another world where there is not another option for Eliza sitting literally Right There, who does not and has never had the same scruples about her gender and her abilities.

The issues that Patrick has with Eliza are not because of those aspects of her identity, but rather the areas where their personalities, styles, and sometimes morals do not align. That being said, they also tend to work through issues much quicker and easier than Eliza and William do. Their problems tend to only escalate when their goals deviate and Eliza and Patrick can disagree about things without it becoming a bigger problem. Nash wants to protect his business and Eliza wants to prove herself and to do the right thing. These goals do not always align and this causes friction between the two. This, however, seems to be something Patrick is actively working on as he mentions both in season two and season four how she makes him want to be a better person. Also, while William spends much of the first couple of seasons actively trying to get Eliza to change and become more like what their society wants her to be, Nash never has this expectation of her, having only known her as a detective. This is therefore a common area of disagreement for Eliza and William that she is able to avoid with Patrick.

Eliza and William also have this issue of differences in goals but I’m not sure how the writers are planning to rectify the issue. As Arabella says in season 3, Eliza will always choose her job over anything else, including William. While I am personally not a fan of Arabella because of the whole Victorian-pick-me-girl thing she has going on, I do agree with her here. We see this issue being brought up again in season 4 when William decides to go to America. He knows that a future with Eliza could only happen if something in their relationship gives, and at this point, it seems like it’s going to have to come from him. His idea of marriage has certainly changed over time, but his issues with Eliza’s position remain, as he says when he tells her that he leaves. William can’t continue working with the police while she is an investigator and she will not stop working just so that they could be married. 

William himself sees the impossibility of the situation, and frankly, I think that the only way that they could end up together would be for him to leave Scotland Yard and come to work with her at her agency. Eliza has of course already offered this to him once in season two and he was very much against the idea, but I think in season five William might have enough development to understand where she’s coming from. That being said, as they are now, I would honestly hate for either of them to have to give up their ambitions for the other. Perhaps William is going to get even more development in season five and decide to give up on his career with the police. If not, the end of this show will be rather shocking for the larger audience lol.

[blacklister214]

Miss Scarlet & the Douche: 1x03

Here's the list of William's absolutely stellar behaviors from 1x03! Enjoy!

Shows up two hours late and drunk to an appointment he made with Eliza

Cracks a joke about being her the “best man for the job”

Hires her to infiltrate the suffragette movement solely because she is a woman and he can’t do it himself 

Doesn’t see anything wrong with asking her to spy on women who have committed no crimes 

Doesn’t care PC Honeychurch nearly blew her cover

Doesn’t care PC Honeychurch was harassing a group of law abiding women

Doesn’t care PC Honeychurch insulted his 'friend'

Tells her she can’t be both a woman and a detective

Lectures her about the “self-control” that all men supposedly possess after his recent night of drunken debauchery

Blows her cover within the group

Immediately refutes Eliza’s assumption that he believes in her skills. Implies he did it solely out of charity

She finds a bunch of information out about the suspect, and he insists he definitely could have found it all himself, and only acts on it after she grovels and tells him how much she wants his respect

When he keeps his word to her to discuss the lead she found, he expects her to be “more grateful.” 

Threatens to withhold payment if she doesn’t interview the women, despite the fact he earlier claimed he paid solely for her to attend the meeting as a spy, which she did

He goes behind her back and tries to alienate her associate

Suggests that fathers should physically “discipline” their daughters, else they become spoiled. Implies Eliza would have benefited from being struck by Henry

Physically smashes glass objects near her to express his anger. You know showing that classic male "self control" he was going on about earlier

Tells her he never wants to see her again

Doesn't take her to to Margaret's arrest

Never tells her "good work" for figuring out Margaret's real plan

[blacklister214]

Have two people ever been less in tune with each other's emotions and intentions?

We have Duke being all "What do you mean you're never ever going to become a full time housewife?!" because he wants Eliza to be HIS housewife.

Then the comment flies over Eliza's head about why William would say such a dumb thing. She thinks he is teasing her and doesn't notice the pained tone at all.

Next, Eliza's cake, specially made for William, with great effort on her part, is ignored by William in favor of Arabella's baking. Eliza stands stand miserable in the corner with William totally missing her mood.

I struggle to see them as the endgame couple, I really do.

MISS SCARLET AND THE DUKE (2020-)

created by rachael new

03x02

[amoratrix]

In my opinion, William assumed that Eliza simply belonged to him, so what jealousy? Eliza had to put up with a lot of unpleasant things, including a relationship with Arabella, but William always saw her as his.

That confidence whenever he told Eliza they wouldn't be together (through her fault, of course). He never even thought about whether she wanted it. And meanwhile she didn't kiss him like crazy, nor did she reciprocate his confession.

What I still find interesting is that it wasn't living with the perpetually absent Eliza that made him realise that she preferred work. He realised this when he remembered Arabella's words in Eliza's office.

Something that bugs me about 4 x 04 is that William is never jealous about all the time Eliza is spending with Patrick. I mean, all William wants is a couple of minutes to tell her he loves her, but he can't get them because she's spending literally all her time with another man! I get that the writers weirdly never saw Nash as a romantic rival, but even if William didn't see him as competition, you'd still think he'd be jealous of all the time Eliza was spending with him!

[toladlugopiska]

Moja ulubiona para! Pasują do siebie jak nikt! :)

Fixing the hashtag by spamming these two some more. 😘