#This is the same exact shit with Goku in DBZ after Cell

[lettherebemonsters]

Guess whose back on her bullshit! Spooky! XD Gonna try responding to threads, going after my drafts, emptying out my inbox and hopefully getting more icons done. I'm almost at 500 and I haven't even started the final fight lol.

[mytwitterisdogtoast1]

Dragonball GT is the worst series of all the Dragonball series.

I recently watched a video created by Totally Not Mark about which series is better out of GT and Super when it came to the franchise in general and part of me remembered my huge dislike towards the series so I figured I’d get on my keyboard and do that good ol’ fashioned “post an opinion” onto Tumblr because that is what the site is mostly for. So Instead of posting about how I think super is better I’m going to just post why the hell GT is a horrible show to me and the things it gets right and why in general the show is horrible. Now before I get into that context I am in no way a super fan or the type of person who says that subs are better than dubs because we all love anime and shouldn’t restrict others from liking their thing because we fill we are superior to each other based on our willingness to read or because we think “that the voice actors in Japan are so much better and you lose the feeling you get when you watch Americans try and fail at it”. Look as a filthy casual who usually never gets angry or upset at most things my reasons for disliking GT aren’t going to be what most people would see as a bad thing or even say the reasons I like GT are the exact same reasons and if you can come to appreciate the reasons I give that’s cool and if you disagree that is fine as well as long as it leads to civil discourse because again, it’s anime and no one is superior in their likes to another just because of some arbitrary reasons. In the end, it’s all just cartoons. So before I get into why i dislike GT at every turn I see it show up I have to praise it for what it does right to me. That is the visuals of the how the characters looks. See I get that it’s like 10 years into the future or something like that and some people now look way too old like Krillin or just don’t show up ever unless it doesn’t matter but with who we got they look great and I would never take away how good they look. Also the villains as much as I will get into them are actually kinda cool in their own right and aren’t the worst ideas just implemented in such a poor manner that any real good they do is kinda mitigated by the fact that they are almost identical to some other villain in the end. So now with that out of the way I’m going to get into why GT is one of the worst anime of all time. At least to me.  So what makes Dragonball so great is it is a comedy genre even near the final seasons. They either had shitty reasons to amass an army or in general did silly things like make a holiday after themselves when they finally succeeded in ruling the world but in the end the genre of action anime is pretty much parodied with how it is a child who goes in and defeats these muscle men. We have a child who was never really raised by a normal adult trying to fit into a world outside of his normal views and fights these villains who against normal people would lose but in the end they all end up losing to a little boy. It’s a nice adventure with laughs and enough action to really get people to enjoy it. As much as I like Dragonball I never really liked it as much as Z. Yes I do know that it is mostly just Z over here in the west but I don’t see them really being the same manga with the shift in tone that the two had and the styles of adventure they ended up having in Z is so vastly different in comparison that to me they are totally different series when compared to each other. Also I was growing up when Z first came over to America so I didn’t see Dragonball until after it made its first debut on Toonami. So again, totally different series to me.  As for Z? Well Z is my favorite anime of all time. It’s by far not the best anime ever but I do believe it is the best action anime of all time for a couple of reasons. 1: I love how in the end they just fight better versions of the previous final boss. Vegeta? That’s just stronger Raditz who can transform. Frieza? That’s just stronger Vegeta who can transform multiple times. Cell? Thats just stronger Frieza who can transform multiple times, Regenerate, Use everyones powers, and also absorb people. You get the picture by now. Everyone else who comes after is just a “better version” of the last and that tickles my fancy. 2: It helped make certain parts of the genre of shonen manga via the introduction of tropes. Transformations weren’t really a thing before Z came along and pretty much every action anime since then has used tropes that Z has introduced. 3: It still holds up today in being a good anime and manga and in general the popularity of it was so big that even now when I’m a 30 something year old that it got a new series to continue even after GT finished it off in Super. These are the reason I think it’s the best action anime of all time but again, feel free to disagree if you want to.  As for why GT is such a shit show to me it all comes down to the fact that it introduces absolutely nothing new when it comes to itself that even the villains and the characters are a little in general copies of other characters. That and no one matters compared to Goku. If we start it off sure we have people like Trunks and Pan and even “insert comedy character who is only here because plot that could just be ignored and even removed” A.K.A. Giru. See the series starts off pretty generic in that Goku is training Uub up in the look out. He just disappeared and is finishing his time in what I assume was a 10 year training session. We are introduced to our first “villains” in Pilaf and his crew. They are finding out about not only gods look out but they also find a new set of dragonballs. Convenient plot details that are either confusing or just there to set up the series. Firstly before I get into that why was this never said before, Why did Bulma never pick up on these dragonballs, Why did pilaf just now find them if he’d been searching his entire life after dragonball? So many questions in general but still. Not the point. The point is this, they don’t have a real reason except to introduce our first main villains. Pilaf and his gang. A little weird when you look at it cause Pilaf has been bested so many times that him succeeding now seems like a stupid thing to happen. Thankfully his success is only to again, push the story. Goku and his gang have to now search for the dragonballs. Which is exactly what happened in Dragonball. This time, it’s across the universe. This is where my ability to really in general compare the shows ends. That is until in general I get to the final stretch. See there are very few things I can equate to Dragonball besides the adventure of the day aspect. You have the obvious nod towards Oolong with Zoonama who both want to marry a girl and end up falling for a boy in drag. You have the fact of Goku with a tech savvy Briefs person as well as a spunky fighter. Goku is a kid. Maybe a couple other things if I looked it up and compared but the main thing is that first section of GT is based heavily on Dragonball in general. The final stretch part begins with the “Red Ribbon Army” copy in the General Rildo part with Dr Myuu who is just also a copy of Android 20. So after this part finishes it kicks into the saiyan saga of DBZ. Baby is by far a complete knock off of 3 villains in DBZ being comprised of Vegeta, Frieza, and Garlic Jr. Why is this so? let’s face it, If you compare those 3 with him its basically a one for one beat on what he does with someone else. Firstly he’s in the body of Vegeta and even when he starts losing he goes and just becomes a great ape. Pretty much what Vegeta does in the first saga of Z. As for Frieza they can both survive in space, Has multiple different forms and lastly he hates saiyans. Now sure the reason is different but the disdain for them is pretty much comparing blue to a lighter shade of blue that looks just like blue. We could even mention that Baby is like Cell in that they are both made by science but the comparisons end there. As for Garlic Jr Baby does the same thing in taking control of people and making them the same as with the black water mist. These are what make Baby pretty much a whole of 3 separate people. Next comes the Androids and cell. Super 17 is pretty much just perfect cell. You have past villains returning to take out Goku. Those of which are Frieza and Cell. Which funny enough Frieza comes back but dies by trunks who warns of 2 androids coming to fight against Goku and kill him. Which comes in the forms of Dr Myuu and Dr Gero. Both of which, are you know, not the main androids being talked about. In fact it’s actually 17 and hell 17. Both of which are going to fuse and make one super android who changes forms into basically cell in that he can absorb energy and also has infinite energy as well. These are basically the main parts except that the end takes multiple people to fight off and kill Super 17. To which they then wish back people with the dragonballs because one of the Z fighters died and they want to bring them back. Seems that it would be fine except for the small little detail of its an evil dark dragon who when after granting the 7th wish he creates these evil dragons. Before I get into those dragons lemme question this. If Kami and Piccolo fused and the dragonballs stopped existing for a bit and it took Dende a new person to create new dragonballs wouldn’t he know of the evil dragons as well as also in general start a new chain thus stopping 7 evil dragons from existing? Oh well, at least we get 7 different dragons for Specifically only Goku to fight against. I can see people saying how can you compare the evil dragons to Buu which it’s a lot easier than you would think. How many different forms of Buu are there? would you guess about maybe 7? Cause there are 7 different forms of Buu. 6 of which are different forms when he absorbs other people. So lets take it this way. Omega Shenron also absorbs 6 different “people” in the 6 different dragonballs that aren’t his. Sure, he only gets one more form in that he has now been transformed into Omega from Syn Shenron but still. Transformations are a check. So what are the 7 different forms of Buu? 1:Kid Buu 2: Buff Buu which is when he absorbs the southern Supreme Kai. 3: Fat Buu which he gets from absorbing the Supreme Kai. 4: Evil old Buu. 5: Super buu. 6: Super buu with Gotenks absorbed. 7: Super Buu with Piccolo absorbed. 8: Piccolo with Gohan absorbed. Now some of you might be saying “that’s 8 different forms of Buu and not 7″ But in the end Syn and Omega are both different “forms” thus making 8 different forms of dragons as well. The main part that gets annoying though is how they defeat Shenron. Firstly they use fusion and then don’t win even though they could have in the end. Why? Arbitrary reasons. See in Z it was because Vegito wanted to be fused to save the others. In GT it’s cause they needed to defeat him with the spirit bomb. Just like they did with Buu. Both spirit bombs are also involving a larger amount of people than normal. In Z it was all of earth. Every person. In GT it was the whole universe. That’s not even the final part of how it’s the same. At the end of Z Goku says goodbye to his friends and fucks off. GT does the exact same thing. The show is honestly pretty much a beat for beat of Dragonball and Z. It adds nothing to the universe and what it does add  is half assed. Things like Vegeta having an epiphany that Goku is better than him twice at the final end villain or having Goku lose a tournament as a child or stuff like that fill in the cracks of the shit cake that is GT with more shit that doesn’t help or make it better. GT even fails to make what it had that was great good. The use of a new level of SSJ to defeat Baby was also used in the same ways of how Kaioken wasn’t enough to beat Frieza and then SSJ was also attained then. Everything is on a bigger scale while being comparable to the smaller scale before it. The reason I don’t compare this with Super as that even when it takes from earlier seasons of DBZ or anything else it is fresh in comparison. Goku and Vegeta doing their rivalry? not beat for beat. Older characters? They have use. Repeat villains? Frieza is almost a completely new person with his arc in that he now knows he needs to train and actually does and also does some good and even respects Goku. That’s why I don’t compare the two because they are incomparable. GT? It’s pretty much a shitty version of what came before it.

[duhragonball]

Dragon Ball Z 229

Last time, Vegeta blew a hole in the Budokai stadium!

What do you have to say for yourself, Vegeta?    “I’m a baaaaaad wittle boy.”

The crowd flees the arena, and even 18 is disturbed by Vegeta’s actions.    She says she’s never sensed a ki like this before, wait, since when could 18 sense ki signatures?     She couldn’t do that before.

Babidi, on the other hand, is thrilled, because 200 people were killed.   Wait, why should that matter to him?  That doesn’t help him reach his goal, unless he just enjoys innocent people dying on sheer principle.   Babidi’s a terrific villain.   He’s kind of underappreciated, really.  The ranking should be 1) Cell, 2) Vegeta, 3) Buu, 4) Babidi, 5) Frieza.

The crowd pleads for Mr. Satan to save them from this tiny golden monster in their midst, so he steels himself and tries to get tough, but then he backs down and asks them nicely to settle down.

Vegeta ignores Mr. Satan completely, and tells Goku to fight him, unless he wants more people to get killed.    At this, Goku suddenly realizes that Vegeta might have let himself get mind-controlled, just so he could make an ultimatum like this.   

Vegeta’s only response is to shoot another part of the stadium.   This isn’t a bluff, and it’s not a negotiation.    If Goku won’t fight, then Vegeta will keep killing people until he does.

And you can tell that this pisses Goku off.    Yeah, he wanted to fight Vegeta too, but not like this.   

Gohan tries to intercede, but Vegeta just shrugs him off.    He’s not listening to anyone except “fighting with Goku.”

So Goku turns Super Saiyan, and it looks like they’re going to throw down right here and now.  

Vegeta basically admits to doing all of this on purpose.    If Goku’s so intent on saving the world from Babidi during his one day back on Earth, then the only way Vegeta can get his undivided attention is to join Babidi’s team.   Right now, the only way to stop Babidi is to go through Vegeta.   Literally.   

Here’s what makes this so awesome.    I feel kind of goofy even explaining this, because it feels self-evident to me, but maybe there’s someone reading this who hasn’t watched DBZ before.   In which case, dude.    This is the stupidest possible way to experience DBZ for the first time.    Just watch the show and come back later.    This liveblog will still be here.    Unless Wordpress shuts this site down.   

Where was I?  Oh, right.   So what makes this work is that the Supreme Kai is absolutely right to call Vegeta’s stunt foolish.... but.   But!  Anyone who’s watched the entire series up to this point gets it.    As horrible as it may sound, on some level, we wanted Vegeta to do something stupid like this, to piss Goku off, to really get him riled up, so that they would finally have their big rematch.

I remember when Goku first turned Super Saiyan.    For a while there, they had all this Super Saiyan Goku merch, and Vegeta looked so ordinary in his regular non-Super Saiyan form.    I thought it made sense for Goku to have this epic ascension, but it seemed like a waste that Vegeta would never be able to match it.   How could their rivalry continue like this?    They could never fight each other again, because Goku was so far ahead of him that it would have been pointless.  

Then Vegeta turned Super Saiyan, and it looked like they could finally settle things, just as soon as they got all those damn dirty androids out of the picture.  Only by the time that finally happened, Goku was out of the picture too.    Now the rivalry was truly impossible, because they would never see each other again.   

Then Goku comes back, for one day only, and it looks like we finally have this narrow window for Goku and Vegeta to fight.  They even got paired off in the tournament bracket.   First round, so there was no chance of Goku getting disqualified against Mr. Satan in some unlikely hijinks.    The fight can finally happen.   Goku vs. Vegeta, they’re both Super Saiyans or Super Saiyan 2′s or whatever, even steven, let’s see who comes out on top.   

But now, here comes Babidi and the Supreme Kai, with all this Majin Buu bullshit, and Vegeta has to wait inside a spaceship for like an hour.   And both sides of this conflict are idiots.   The Supreme Kai has no idea who he’s dealing with.    He didn’t know what Super Saiyans could do, he didn’t know Dabura and Yakon were on Babidi’s team, and his sidekick Kibito was the first one to die.    The whole thing was dumb and quite frankly not nearly as awesome as Goku and Vegeta punching each other.   

And let’s face it, after all these years, Vegeta’s still mad that Goku overpowered him way back in Episode 30 or whatever it was.   Since then, Goku’s saved his life, first from Krillin, then from Recoome.    Why, it’s gotten him so riled up just thinking about it that his face is all twisty.    What the hell...?

Is it stupid?   Yeah, it is.  Like I said, the Supreme Kai is right.    This is absolutely ridiculous.    Vegeta’s risking the fate of the universe so he can settle a petty grudge.   No one thinks this is worth it.    No one gives a shit whether this sawed-off asshole gets his do-over.   Well, I mean, the audience probably does.   I know I always did.  What I’m saying is that no one in-universe ever cared about this guy getting to avenge his pride.   

But Vegeta cares, and the fact that he’s the only one who cares is probably why he’s so desperate and upset about making this happen. 

I think this is what makes the character so appealing to people.    In spite of all the shitty things he does, people can relate to Vegeta’s passion and to the sheer loneliness of that passion.    We all have things we alone care about that other people dismiss as meaningless or unimportant.     What’s the big deal?   It’s just a TV show.   It’s just a drawing.    It’s just a story you wrote.    It’s not that important.   Meaningless, really.    Let’s go back to what’s really important, which is making Gohan feel better about whizzing that fight with Dabura, or congratulating Mr. Satan for his championship victory.   What a kooky character he is!

I think we’ve all been there before.   I’m not saying we’ve killed 200 people to make the point, but we’ve been in situations where everyone laughed it off and dismissed how we felt because “what’s the big deal anyway?”   And that’s one reason Vegeta leaves a lasting impression with people, because he’s powerful enough that he can make people understand why it’s a big deal to him.  

Against all of this, all Goku can say in response is to call out to Babidi.   He demands to be teleported someplace where there’s no bystanders.    Some place, like... I don’t know... Goku Town.

We did do it, Babidi.    This is awesome.   Good job, everyone.

Then the Supreme Kai gets in between these two, and he’s all “No!  This fight is too metal.    I can’t allow it!   If you’re going to fight Vegeta, you’ll have to fight me first!”

And Goku’s like “Sir, that was a very metal thing you just did, but please, get out of the way before I kill you.”

The Kai is stunned.    Goku’s not bluffing here.   He will kill the Supreme Kai right here and now, if that’s what it takes.  

But the most awesome part is Vegeta’s reaction.    He looks just as surprised to see how determined Goku is to settle this.    He’s been so focused on getting this battle that he forgot who he was dealing with.   

Defeated, the Supreme Kai stands down.    He did a brave thing, stepping into Goku Town, but he knows he can’t pay the rent.  

Man, this episode rules.   The Surpeme Kai is just so... despondent.  He’s completely lost control of the situation.  

And Babidi’s convinced that he’s won.   Once Vegeta and Goku start fighting, it’ll only be a matter of time before Vegeta inflicts enough damage to transfer the energy needed to revive Majin Buu.   And nothing can stop that fight from happening.    Everything’s coming up Milhouse Babidi.

So he grants Goku’s request and teleports them away.   Mr. Satan is relieved, because this means he can claim they ran away before he could unleash his righteous fury.

So, I think this is the Giskard Wasteland, but I’m not up on my Dragon World Geography.   This may even be the same setting as the original Goku/Vegeta fight, but I don’t feel like looking it up.  

From here, the Supreme Kai bows to the inevitable, and accepts that Goku and Vegeta will fight.    All he can do now is force open the hatch to Stage 4, so he and Gohan can proceed down Babidi’s ship and stop him before Majin Buu can be revived.   Of course, that means he’ll have to risk jolting Babidi’s ship, which could accidentally break Buu’s seal prematurely, but at this point he has to risk it.   

Note that this is precisely what Vegeta wanted to do at the start of the last episode.  If the Kai had gone along with it then, he would be in the exact same predicament he’s in now, except he’d have three Super Saiyans backing him up instead of just one, and he wouldn’t have the ticking clock to worry about.   

But Babidi has no intention of allowing the Supreme Kai to leave Stage 3 so soon, and he orders Vegeta to kill him and Gohan before they can carry out this plan.   

But Vegeta refuses, insisting that he doesn’t care what Shin and Gohan do, so long as it doesn’t get in the way of his objective, which is to kick Goku’s ass.

Babidi has some sort of leverage here, as it seems to cause Vegeta physical pain to resist him like this, but he remains steadfast.    Babidi might control him body and soul, but Vegeta still has his pride, which must be satisfied before he’d ever consider anything else.   

Babidi is astonished, as this has never happened before.    It begs the question of whether Babidi could ever truly control Vegeta.    Maybe if he defeated Goku in battle, Vegeta might become more pliable.   Or, perhaps beating Goku is the only thing keeping Vegeta and Babidi on the same side.  

But Dabura convinces Babidi that they’re better off letting Geets and the Supreme Kai have their way.    If Vegeta’s so determined to fight Goku, let him, because that’s good for Buu.    And they might as well let the Kai and Gohan out of Stage 3, so they won’t accidentally break Buu’s seal early.    It’s not like they can win on their own, since they’ll have to go through Dabura.

   So Babidi opens the hatch, but before Gohan goes through, Goku gives him a senzu bean, because he remembered he still had some from when he got them for Gohan’s girlfriend.   I like how Goku just casually says that, when the situation is too tense for Gohan to object.    “Hey, son, before we start our epic laser battles, I just remembered that thing I got for that girl you’re in love with!”    

Then he gives him one last piece of advice: Get angry, like he did when he fought Cell.   Goku seems convinced that if Gohan is furious enough, it’ll make up for his ring rust.   

Gohan takes minute to lament that Goku’s one day back in the living world ended up this way.    It is kind of sad.   Gohan just wanted to hang out with his dad, and all of this crap happens.    It’d be kind of funny if Babidi controlled Gohan’s mind, and he blew up the stadium demanding a hug.   

So they leave, and now it’s just Goku and Vegeta.    Goku’s like “Fuck this, I can’t take any damage in this fight, so I’m gonna go balls to the wall, right now.”    Well, that’s not his exact wording, but you get the idea.  

So Goku turns Super Saiyan 2!    Good job, Orange Brick DVDs.    It’s worth cropping Goku’s head so we can see all that stuff on the sides.

Of course, no one calls it Super Saiyan 2, because he term hasn’t been coined yet.    Vegeta just notes that Goku is stronger than Gohan was when he fought Cell, so you get the idea.

So then Vegeta powers up and now he’s a Super Saiyan 2, too!

When I first watched this arc, I honestly didn’t get that “Ascended Super Saiyan” was meant to be a distinct form, because it looks virtually indistinguishable from the original Super Saiyan.   I learned to tell the difference eventually, mostly thanks to the video games, which allow you to compare the models before and after, but in this leg of the anime, it’s just about impossible.   I think the animators had trouble keeping this straight.  

The main feature I picked up on is that Goku’s SSJ2 form has beadier eyes, at least initially, and more of his bangs stick up.    With Vegeta, I don’t even get that much to work with.   His hair looks a little more “knife-y”, but that’s about it.   

Anyway, Goku realizes that this will take a lot longer than he planned.   

And this is it.    Goku-Vegeta II.   The fight we’ve all been waiting for, but at what cost?  

[itsclydebitches]

Does genocide/death matter in dbz? What makes Frieza blowing up a planet different then Beerus? Our main cast our friends with the literal gods. We've seen that there is a afterlife and they're multiple ways to bring back the dead. I feel like the ethics of that universe get really complicated and it just doesn't get addressed. Which is fine since the show isn't about that, but something to think about.

The show might not address it but I DO. But no, for real, I’ve thought about this more than I probably should have, anon. Based on those (very broad-stroke) thoughts my general conclusion is that death originally did matter a whole lot, then it didn’t, now it does again in Super. So presenting a very rough timeline: 

During the Dragon Ball era people have notably grown up with death as a permanent thing. Like in real life, they fear it and avoid it and largely don’t know that it can be undone. The dragon balls change this, but at this point they’re a) incredibly difficult to locate, b) often hard to obtain even when located (i.e. at the bottom of an ocean), c) have more rules attached to them (you can only be resurrected so many times), and d) are constantly threatened via the death of Earth’s guardian. So death may not be permanent... but it sure as hell isn’t easy to reverse either. It’s a bit of a pipe dream. 

In the early DBZ era we have this trend continuing. That’s why Goku’s death at the hands of Raditz still has an impact. Same with Krillin’s death as everyone (characters included) are figuring out how the Nemekian balls fit into all this and what exactly they can accomplish with them. It’s important that Krillin died when he did--when death still felt semi-permanent and something of a significant loss--because otherwise we’d have no true motivation for Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation. 

Mid Cell arc into Buu is where I think we start seeing death as a no big deal kinda thing. By this point the dragon balls have far less restrictions attached to them, they can be picked up in just a few hours by our heroes, and the next generation (Trunks and Goten) have an indifferent, “Just use the dragon balls” mentality. Death takes on a slightly different meaning at this point in the story. Part of that includes changing our perspective about death from “They’re gone for forever” to “We just can’t contact them for a long, long time and that’s still pretty depressing”--i.e. Goku leaving for seven years and Gohan not getting to grow up with his father. He might know he’ll see him again someday, but that doesn’t lessen the emotional difficulty of being alone then and there. 

Another consideration at this point is whether someone WILL bring you back--i.e. Frieza fears his hell because barely anyone cares about him + his henchmen don’t stand much chance against our heroes, the ones hanging out around those dragon balls. The conflict of “The dragon balls are only useful if you can get ahold of them” has changed from “Wow these are really hard to find/access” to “Shit they’re now controlled by a small group of very powerful people.” We start to see the balls as a coveted resource. Just because they exist doesn’t mean you get to use them. 

More importantly though, I think during this era the how and when people die takes center stage, not necessarily that they did die. I think a good example of this is when Piccolo thinks Buu killed Gohan and the Supreme Kai is fearful that he’ll die at the hands of his blast. For each there’s a general sense of “This shouldn’t happen”--because dying is horrible and painful and if you care about this person you don’t want them to go through that--but also a sense of “If Gohan dies now we have one less person to fight Buu, so Buu might destroy the entire Earth before we can resurrect anyone, so we might not have a way of bringing ANYONE back EVER.” It’s a domino effect. The conflict now is who is dying, when they’re dying, and whether their death will impact the others’ ability to fix things at the end of the day. We see the same thing happening in Super when Frieza destroys the Earth in his last moments. Death is suddenly a threat again because the heroes’ solution to this problem was erased alongside life itself. No more dragon balls. The gods they know can’t magically make a whole planet and its life reappear. There’s nothing to do... except Whis’ temporal do over. And that has a 3min limitation/can only be used once every X amount of time. Meaning the next time Whis CAN do it far more than 3 mins will have passed, making the technique useless. If they don’t fix things now they never will. 

Which leads us to Super as a whole. Overall I think it’s done a very good job of re-establishing the stakes. First we’re shown through that Frieza moment that the level of power these characters hold now means that destruction can happen instantaneously... sometimes too quickly to do anything about it, even when you’d normally have ways of fixing stuff after the fact. Then we learn about the pretty much limitless super dragon balls, but they’re spread across two universes. Good luck getting those in a hurry. Most significantly though, we’re introduced to characters whose power exceeds everything else we know about death. Like Beerus’ hakai. Or Grand Zeno’s abilities. Maybe you can wish people back with the regular or super dragon balls... but that ultimately won’t matter if you’re erased entirely from your timeline and don’t even exist in an afterlife anymore. Or your entire universe is erased, along with any of those magical objects. 

These are the kinds of people that our heroes risk pissing off nowadays. Like the rest of the series, the stakes keep getting higher. If normal death doesn’t mean much anymore--we can wish you back, visit you in Other World, undo time, etc.--then you have to introduce pure erasure instead. A lack of existence across all worlds and timelines. That’s why the Tournament, to my mind anyway, still had weight. Everyone watching knew that the winner could use the super dragon balls to wish things back to normal... but whether the Grand Zenos would let them was the question. For all the characters know they might have used their little wish orbs and then the Omni Kings went, “Nope!” and erased everything again. Their power is just too substantial to combat if they’re insistent on making death permanent. 

(As a side note regarding Beerus and Frieza: Frieza is the exact sort of guy that Beerus is supposed to deal with... but then didn’t. Same with Buu. Beerus’ destruction exists to keep balance. Our DBZ villains’ destruction exists to cause selfish chaos. However, we’re shown time and time again that Beerus is sleeping instead of doing his job (resulting in death that should never have happened, like the supreme kais); he’s destroying worlds not because balance requires it, but because he didn’t like their food. He even threatens his entire universe by picking a fight with Goku. Beerus, bluntly put, isn’t good at his job, but ultimately I like that about him. It emphasizes how fallible and human ALL the gods are. They’re not perfect, etherial beings who appear unknowable to us and therefore exist as characters we can’t connect with... they’re all screwups in their own ways lol). 

[gokubrain]

eowheisbf same anon as be4 and thisll be my last ask cause I dont wanna be too big a bother but yes I agree with your points about vegeta learning about how to redeem himself by looking at how goku lives and learning how to better himself from that. I guess after the excellent redemption arcs that were tien and piccolo, I just thought with how much people praise it I really expect more out of what people claim inspired most anti-heroes and redeemed characters. I still love Vegeta but gosh this is like bringing him down a peg in my mind but in a good way I think. Also I see the kakavege too it's like not even subtle how do people say these two arent at least a lil canon gay lol. (On a side note that's related to this, I saw a vid about v's redemption and the guy says goku is morally gray?? I feel like thats not correct like at all hes a bit selfish but not morally gray txbablrieh)

NOO JKSG LIKE I SAID UR TOTALLY FINE LOL, feel free to mssg me to talk abt dbz anytime btw <3 ! i have lots of dbz worms in my brain so LOL it's not uncommon knowledge that i have a very complicated relationship with vegeta in general LOL like he makes me really mad sometimes and i do have a lot of complaints with his writing but. i mean i do be kinning him tho and i also think about him and draw him pretty much constantly LOL but like. yeah again i think its totally fair and valid and also should be encouraged to have criticisms about characters. it really shows that u understand the media hehe.

which ties into what i'm about to say about goku LOL

i love son goku with my entire heart but i definitely don't think he's perfect by any means. i don't necessarily think he's morally gray or anything, i think it's more an issue of,, him being kind of unaware of the people around him and not paying much thought to them KJDSHGK NOT TO SAY HE DOESN'T LOVE HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY, LIKE OBVIOUSLY HE DOES VERY MUCH AND HE CARES ABOUT THEM BUT...

i think like. i mean, he spent how many years of his childhood either completely alone or with only ONE other person?? like, twelve entire years LOL, children develop important social skills and emotional awareness during this time but i think goku may have been a bit stunted in that regard seeing as how,,, he had little to no social interaction for his entire childhood lol.

i do kind of think goku is a little selfish and i do think he's a ,, bit of a manipulator LOL BUT LIKE. obviously nothing severe and i don't really think he always realizes he's doing it either, if that makes sense

he really has his heart set on fighting, like that's his favorite thing and his constant goal and while it's a bit troubling that he's willing to put his life (etc.) at risk for fights, i don't really think it's all that bad tbh SGKJH LIKE i think a lot of people think that it's extremely selfish of him and that he's morally ambiguous or even like. a bad person for it but idk,, i just disagree?? LOL I MEAN. he's a saiyan,, that's what saiyans do. vegeta has done the exact same shit but everyone loooooves vegeta 🙄

i could go on and on about how i feel like goku's selfishness doesn't really hurt anyone in the end and i could ramble for DAYS about the gohan cell arc fight and how it lead to everyone hating goku and saying he's a bad guy DESPITE THIS NOT BEING THE CASE, PEOPLE FUCKING MAKE MISTAKES SOMETIMES, but i'll just cut it off here LOL

tl;dr, vegeta deserved a better redemption arc // goku isn't perfect but that makes him well written and also i still love him dearly no matter what he's never done anything wrong in my eyes <3

[beardmasterlegham-blog]

Let’s talk about my boi Vegeta and DBS Episode 122

This is probably one of my first times weighing in on anything Dragonball in any public medium, and hoo boy it’s a long one so strap in.

(TL;DR: My theory is that Vegeta is going to attain an alternate form of Ultra Instinct that will grant him the power of Accelerated Probability)

Let me just start off by saying that while Vegeta is my favourite character in all of Dragonball, I stand firm on my belief that he will NEVER surpass or even match up to Goku’s raw fighting strength. In all honestly I’ve accepted this, and am honestly fine with it.  It's not that he can't. It's that he shouldn't. 

Goku's character literally boils down to "I wanna fight strong guys and get stronger." That's basically it. It's the mantra that drives practically every action he takes, and hell it even drives the narrative to an extent. (he is the titular character after all) The Tournament of Power would not exist if not for Goku wanting to fight strong guys. That's why Goku HAS to be the strongest, because without that his character is essentially nothing. 

Meanwhile I am more than content with Vegeta being put on the backburner when it comes to epic fights, because they are replaced with touching moments in Super that show how much his character changed over the years.

Compare that to DBZ in which even later on in the series he was practically always angry about something. Vegeta is one of, if not the most well-developed characters in all of anime in my opinion, and honestly I'm content with just that instead of wanting him to be #1 strength-wise. 

Another reason why I never understood fans wanting Vegeta to attain Ultra Instinct is that the form really just does not suit his fighting style, or him as a character. The first time we saw Goku use it, he was basically some kind of vessel for this higher power; hell the guy had to fade out of consciousness to even achieve it. There’s something uniquely primal about it, what with the roars of other voices combined with Goku’s voice in its debut, and just the fact that Goku wasn’t making any sort of preparative motion to attack or seemed to think prior to acting at all. 

When you consider all that, it’s a perfect match for Goku. Whis foreshadowed it waaaaaay back in Resurrection of F, hinting at a level of power where one could have their body move on its own appropriately. He also stated Goku and Vegeta’s respective shortcomings, saying that Vegeta was too tense and thought too intensely in battle, whereas Goku was absentminded and careless despite his amazing natural instincts.

While Vegeta has shown to have improved his high-strung attitude and even gone so far as to slouch in battle in an attempt to loosen up, I feel as though his tactical prowess and ability to analyze and adapt to his opponents techniques  is something so fundamental to his character that I would be shocked to ever see it change. It’s what makes him Goku’s foil, and it’s a huge part of why so many people love his character.

Which finally brings me to what I wanted to talk about in regards to Episode 122, as well as that spicy preview for the upcoming Episode 133.

The preview for 122 had everyone hyped, since it showed two major things: Vegeta landing two impactful-looking blows on Jiren in just SSJB, and him using the Final Flash. After having watched the episode, the way these events play out pretty much solidified my belief that Vegeta will not get Ultra Instinct. Or at least not the same UI as Goku did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLj_oT1zYvg

The way he lands his first hit on Jiren was far more interesting than I expected. By observing Jiren’s attack, he is able to predict the movement patterns of his recycled animation--uhh I mean flurry of punches, and go in for the counterattack.

Now hear me out. Vegeta is very observant. But there is NO WAY you can just see the exact positioning and trajectory of each punch in a flurry of probably hundreds of punches, occurring in the span of like 2 seconds. Let alone the first time you’ve seen it. Not to mention, why only that attack and not any other of Jiren’s attacks? If Vegeta could just see through him that easily, couldn’t he have been doing it consciously the whole fight? Could it be that this is a new ability Vegeta has within him that he has yet to truly master, but is bubbling at the surface?

The combination of these factors leads me to believe that this is the first step towards Vegeta obtaining a new form that suits him better than UI, and him being able to see Jiren’s movement patterns so clearly in this episode is the first inkling into what that might entail. 

Before I share my prediction for this power, I wanna point out one last scene that really sold me on Vegeta achieving something other than UI. (Also I really just wanna talk about this scene because it’s great)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrq2uDEQWxI

Besides just the moving soundtrack, the incredible visuals, and of course the nostalgic throwbacks to Vegeta’s Final Flash against Cell, two lines in particular spoke volumes to me:

“I can never throw away who I am!”

“Kakarot can have his Ultra Instinct! I’ll defeat you in my own way, Jiren!”

Do you think someone who owns his arrogance unabashedly, proudly proclaiming that he’ll never throw away who he is, would ever truly want a form that may remove the user from full control of themselves?

After this scene it felt wrong to imagine it. I might be looking too deep into it but it’s not a form I can see fitting him with this in mind. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITeApg8_w2Y

Now everybody who watched the ending credits and the preview for 123 know 2 things: 

1. Vegeta is going to “awaken to an amazin’ power beyond Super Saiyan Blue” (And it ain’t Mastered SSJB, cause that would be a pretty weak payoff for all this build-up and that ship has long past sailed in the manga).

2. This form will allegedly have the same pupils as UI, but different hair, very similar to SSJB but darker, and it’s aura looks to be darker as well with some tinges of purple thrown in there.

My prediction for what new power this form will give Vegeta? 

Accelerated Probability

In this new form, Vegeta would be able to see all the potential movements of his opponent in a span of milliseconds, before they even take those actions. He could then use all these variables presented to him to determine the best course of action he should take to succeed. Something like this seems like the most logical step. This way, the separate forms of UI can have this opposing duality while playing to their respective users greatest strengths. Goku has the form of the Body, while Vegeta would have the form of the Mind. It fits them both well, and it would make Vegeta predicting Jiren make so much more sense. 

Wow. This took a long time to write, and probably a long time to read. If you did read it all, then holy shit you rock, thanks for sticking with me. And keep in mind, I am in no way claiming that this is exactly what will happen, just a neat little theory. I suppose he only way to find out is to tune in to DBS next week!

[gerogerigaogaigar]

Did someone just say weeaboo?

I rewatching Dragonball for he first time since high school and I have so many thoughts.

1. The power levels are so fucked. The first Kamehame-ha in the series comes from Master Roshi during the very first arc and it levels an entire mountain. Roshi goes on to blow up the moon with another kamehame-ha in the first Tenkaichi Budokai. So in the first twenty or so episodes we see the strongest character in the series so far blowing up an entire heavenly body. After nearly losing to Goku in the first Budokai arc Roshi trains to get stronger by the second one, where he doesn’t even make it to the finals. Already the power level has gone up significantly. So the finals of the second Tenkaichi puts Goku up against Tenshinhan, who uses the Kikohou, a move which Roshi says puts the Kamehame-ha to fucking shame, but all it does is blow up the arena. I guess it would have killed Goku if he hadn’t dodged, but in terms of huge destructive power the Kikohou doesn’t seem to pack as much punch as Roshi’s Kamehame-ha. Maybe Roshi just does it better because he invented the move, I dunno. Either way, by the time we hit DBZ, blowing up planets is a job for the super powerful Saiyans (who are about a million times stronger than Master Roshi ever was). Vegeta and Nappa blow up a planet on their way to Earth, but then Frieza has to go full power, final form bullshit mode in order to blow up Namek. We actually have literal power levels for these characters at the time too. Vegeta had a PL of 18,000 when he blew up whatever filler planet en route to Earth, Frieza had over 1,000,000 in his second form so two forms later I’m guessing he was at least 10,000,000. Why could Vegeta blow up a planet at a power level magnitudes lower than Frieza? (It also took Namek five minutes to explode from frieza’s attack while Vegeta just blew his planet up immediately). Why was Master Roshi able to blow up the moon with a power level probably somewhere in the low 100′s?

2. Goku fought Frieza for twenty episodes. Twenty fucking episodes. They contained no content, just screaming. Namek was one of the worst things I have ever watched.

3. Goku and Chichi are awful parents. Goku is such an irresponsible ass to Gohan in the Cell Games that Piccolo nearly steps in to remove Gohan from the fight. He thinks that letting Gohan get beat up by Cell might be a good way to get Gohan to fight better, and everyone seems horrified by this train of thought. Chichi on the other hand doesn’t care if the world is destroyed because if Gohan has any human contact outside of his mother then he will become a delinquent and not get into a good school. Gohan is four years old at the start of DBZ, eleven by Cell.

4. Cutting attacks seem to be really effective, but no one uses them. Both times that Frieza dies are to cutting attacks, and Krillin even managed to hurt Frieza with a Kienzan. Only Yajirobe, Trunks, and Krillin ever use cutting attacks and Yajirobe stops fighting by Z, Trunks loses his sword immediately, and Krillin stops being useful after Namek. I think Gohan uses a sword in the Majin Buu arc, but I’m not there yet.

5. Goku is the fucking villain of this series. He is more interested in winning the Tenkaichi Budokai than defeating Piccolo, the guy who is going to kill everyone on earth, and when he does win he gives Piccolo a senzu because he doesn’t want to lose a good rival. He then lets Vegeta get away for the exact same reason, and Vegeta doesn’t come around as fast as Piccolo by the end of Namek he is still looking for a way to conquer the universe. Whenever he is fighting someone strong it always has to be stated that Goku doesn’t give a shit about the fate of the world, he just wants a good fight. He eventually dies because of this, since Cell would have gone down like a bitch against Gohan if Goku hadn’t handed Cell a Senzu. Also note point 3 for how Goku treats Gohan during the Cell games. Goku also kills King Kai sort of accidentally in the process of killing himself, but that was at least funny.

Revisiting this series has been kind of weird. Dragonball was really fun and lighthearted, but Z is so dead serious all the time. I much prefer moments like Krillin and Jackie Chun explaining to the confused crowd that they played rock paper scissors and then kicked each other in the span of 0.2 seconds over twenty episodes of a villain “getting serious this time” while saiyans power up indefinitely. The episode where Goku and Piccolo go to driving school was as good as I remembered though, so Z does have its moments. I like it when Goku isn’t around, or isn’t fighting.

[duhragonball]

Dragon Ball GT Retrospective (4/7)

[Note: This was originally written on January 13,2013.  I embedded YouTube videos on each part, including several Evanescence AMVs, but Tumblr won’t cooperate with that for some reason.   Just look them up yourself.]

Today I'd like to talk about the Super 17 Saga.  It sucks, but it's short.   Man, there's an Evanescence AMV for this too?  I'm starting to see why that Daredevil movie was so poorly received.  Starring Ben Affleck!   Soundtrack by Every Fifteen-Year-Old on YouTube!

From what I've read, Episode 41 was supposed to have been the finale of Dragon Ball GT, but the show got renewed and so it chugged along for another 23 installments.  I don't know if the post-Baby storylines were rushed, per se, but it does sort of feel like Toei was caught flat-footed.   For one thing, the opening credits still kept using the same animations of Goku, Pan, and Trunks flying around in space, looking for Black Star Dragon Balls, and fighting Baby.  Well, the outer space adventures are over, the Black Star Dragon Balls are gone, and Baby's friggin' dead.  Hell, Trunks even gets kicked out of the main cast.   From here on out It's all Goku and Pan with a little Vegeta now and then.   Also, I think the Super 17 Saga feels like a kneejerk reaction.  "They ordered more shows, what do we do?   Shit... uh, let's just bring back all the bad guys from the old series!"   For a Dragon Ball Z fan, watching GT for the first time is like getting whiplash because they kept switching the premise around.   The whole point of the first two dozen episodes was that they were abandoning the DBZ formula and trying to do old school Kid Goku stories in outer space.  Then they spend another dozen episodes setting up a Goku vs. Vegeta fight with new power-ups.   By Episode 42, the series has given up any ambition of offering a distinct flavor or vision.   It's settled into a rut of doing lame comedy and watered-down superhero fights.   So first off, Episode 41 is about the latest World Martial Arts Tournament.   Goku used to compete in these things, but after he won the tournament he let everything that happened in DBZ distract him from the event, and during that time Mr. Satan became the multi-time World Champion.   The gag with Mr. Satan is that he has no super powers whatsoever, and while he's a brilliant martial artist, he only dominates the competition because all the super-fighters lost interest in the event.  By the end of DBZ, Goku and Mr. Satan's kids got married, so now they rig the tournament like some kind of kung fu mafia: Whoever wins the tournament has to fight Mr. Satan to actually claim the championship, and that person always agrees to take a dive.  By the end of DBZ, the Z-fighters are comfortable letting Mr. Satan serve as a figurehead hero to the people of Earth, while they do all the actual daysaving.  By the GT-era, Satan is now in his mid-fifties, and feels comfortable retiring and passing the torch to someone new.   He tries to rig the event so his grandaughter Pan can win, but she withdraws for fear that she'll be required to wear his ring gear and mustache if she wins.   Goku wanted to compete, but Mr. Satan convinces him to fight in the junior division because he's too short.   Ultimately, it's Uub who wins the tournament, but at the last moment he freezes and Mr. Satan actually eliminates him cleanly.  The reasons for this are complicated, and so I gotta explain Majin Buu.   The final bad guy of Dragon Ball Z was Majin Buu, a genie who could absorb the personalities and traits of his enemies.   This ability eventually caused him to split into two Buus, a good fat Buu and an evil version who went on to be the main villain.  The good Buu made friends with Mr. Satan, and was instrumental in preserving his stranglehold on the World Championship.   The evil Buu was killed by Goku, who wished that he could be reincarnated as a good guy so they could fight again.   Goku's wish came true, and the evil Buu was indeed reincarnated as a young human boy named "Uub" (get it?).   Goku quickly took the boy as his student so he could train him for a rematch and groom him as his successor.   You'd expect that Uub would have been a major player in Dragon Ball GT, but instead he barely ever shows up, and when he did finally make his big move to stop Baby he got his ass kicked.   Fortunately for him, the good Majin Buu stepped in and recombined with Uub, transforming him into "Majuub".   Majuub still got his ass kicked by Baby, but at least he made him work for it.   The point of all this is that Majuub consciously wanted to beat Mr. Satan for the World title, but unconsciously, the part of him that was once Mr. Satan's BFF wanted to let his old pal have the glory one last time.   This is sort of a problem with DBGT.  I meant the show has tons and tons of problems, but this is one that I think deserves more attention.   There's a certain fatalism to the series, because even if it isn't the final act for these characters, they're all older and half of them got 9-to-5 jobs and so forth, so it's clear that things are winding down.   To that end, it makes sense that GT would see the deaths of some of the major characters, but they're all kind of cheap death scenes.  Majin Buu doesn't die so much as he just merges with another iteration of himself.   Mr. Satan misses him, but only because he doesn't understand what's happened.   Piccolo dies, but it was a stupid and pointless sacrifice as I explained last time.   In any event, he shows up later on in the afterlife, so it's not like he's actually gone.   Then there's Krillin, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.   Mr. Satan retaining his title is a variation on the theme.    He talks about retiring, but when the moment arrives, he can't bring himself to step out of the limelight.   In a similar vein, one could argue that Dragon Ball GT should have been mainly about Uub and Pan as the successors to Goku and Gohan, but Goku just couldn't walk away from the action.   Anyway, with that business resolved, the Super 17 Saga can get started.   Basically, it's like the Batman stories where a bunch of villains break out of Arkham Asylum, except all the worst offenders in Dragon Ball are dead, so they have to literally escape from hell.  The plan begins when Dr. Myuu is recruited by Dr. Gero.  Again, it really feels like Toei was just trying to come up with something on the fly, and they decided Gero and Myuu's resemblance was a feature instead of a bug.    Myuu designed the Machine Mutants in the early episodes of GT, and Dr. Gero created the android villains in DBZ.   They're both doctors and they both wear silly hats and long, bushy mustaches.  Also, both of them were betrayed.   Gero was killed when Android 17 turned on him, while Myuu was killed by his creator Baby.   Gero's plan is to work together with Myuu to correct that whole "betrayal" thing that made Android 17 backfire.   Android 17 is still alive on Earth, but if the two doctors build another Android 17 in hell, they can.... harmonize their subspace... tachyons.... resonance.   Something.   All I know is they somehow managed to build an exact duplicate of 17 in hell, so apparently they have hardware stores in hell.   Dragon Ball has never been very consistent about how hell works.   In theory, a dead bad guy is stripped of his corporeal form and he languishes in hell as a disembodied spirit until he's finally allowed to be reincarnated in a new identity.    That's why Frieza can't just beat everyone up and conquer the afterlife.   But Toei always liked the idea of dead bad guys stirring up trouble, so they kept depicting them with their bodies in hell, complete with their full powers.  Dr. Gero was a cyborg, and I think they let him keep his robot body in hell, even though Frieza didn't get to keep his own cyborg implants.   Go figure.   For that matter, I'm pretty sure Dr. Myuu is purely mechanical, so I'm not convinced he'd even be in hell to begin with.    But somehow he and General Rildo are there.    So if Machine Mutants have souls, why isn't Baby there with the other villains?   He's the strongest one, so wouldn't it make more sense to rebuild a stronger version of Baby and use him in the big revenge plan?  Realistically, Toei probably left Baby out deliberately because they just killed him off, but that's why you don't do a story like this right after killing off a major villain. The point of all of this is that "Hell Fighter 17" and "Not Dead Yet 17" are mentally linked because they're basically the same unit in two bodies.   They both fire some sort of energy beam in unison, and this allows them to open a portal connecting Hell and Earth.   It's just sort of implied that the original Android 17 was mind-controlled for all of this, because he's the guy who sent Dr. Gero to hell in the first place, so I doubt he'd willingly endorse a plan to help him get out.   Gero and Myuu send a bunch of dead villains to invade Earth, and they issue a challenge to Goku: Come fight Cell and Frieza in Hell, or we'll send them to Earth too to make the situation even worse.   Goku is eager for a rematch with his old archenemies, even though he's gotten far, far stronger while they've been puttering around the afterlife all this time.   He stupidly flies through the portal, only for Gero and Myuu to close it from the outside.   So now Goku's trapped in Hell and most of his enemies are  causing trouble on Earth.   One of the first episodes of GT I ever saw was #43, because it came on a bonus DVD packaged with a strategy guide for a DBZ videogame.  This was the episode where Goku fights Cell and Frieza in Hell, and I guess they put it on the DVD because it seemed like the best possible choice to promote the new show to DBZ fans.  Cell's my favorite character in the show, so this has gotta be good, right?   Well I watched the episode and quickly realized that GT sucks ass.   First of all, it's been 43 episodes and Goku's still stuck as a child.   He can turn into a Super Saiyan 4 and blow Cell and Frieza away in one hit, but he never does this.   Hell, he could annihilate them in one of the lower Super Saiyan forms.    But this is GT, and GT-logic demands that any preliminary fight be fought in base-form.   Never mind that Goku had to go Super Saiyan the first time he fought these guys.   Now he's fighting them at the same time, with a smaller body, and he wants to do it in normal form.   Frieza and Cell act like they're gonna curbstomp Goku because they have scary new ghost powers, and they can't be killed themselves because they're already dead.   But the reality is that Goku makes them look like idiots because he won't even bother powering up to fight them.  Up your ass, Dragon Ball GT.   At one point, Cell tries to absorb Goku with his scorpion tail, which doesn't even make sense because Cell only absorbs Androids whole, and he doesn't need to absorb anything anymore because he's in his final form.   Goku simply forces his way out of Cell's ass.   Later, Goku defeats Cell and Frieza using a snowblower.   I wish I was kidding.  It's some kind of magic snow blower, designed to freeze dead people, but it's still stupid.  Cell deserved better.   Meanwhile on Earth, the other bad guys get their asses destroyed because they're all incredibly outclassed by the good guys.  Seriously, most of the villains from Dragon Ball were just mercenaries in helicopters and shit.   They were fine at the time, but now all the good guys can throw mountains and shoot lasers from their hands.  They're treated like cannon fodder, and rightfully so, but it kind of makes you wonder what the point of all this was.   I always appreciated the fact that DBZ villains have to die because they're obsolete after their first loss.  The good guys always train and get stronger, so if they were to come back for revenge they'd just be at an even bigger disadvantage.   It's kind of neat to see Nappa come back and confront Vegeta for killing him, except Vegeta's like a thousand times stronger than he was the first time he killed him.   The lame thing is that a handful of the villains might have had a chance, but Toei screwed them over.   Trunks and Goten shoot down Android 19 with hand energy.   Well, fine, they're probably strong enough to do that, except #19 was built with the power to absorb energy blasts.  If a good guy kicked his head off or something I'd be fine with it, but they went for the one quick-kill scenario that made the least amount of sense.  Captain Ginyu can switch bodies, so if he played his cards right he could trade up and be a contender again.   I don't think they even used him in the story, though.  A lot of these guys would have been better off running away from the battle and hiding out somewhere.   I mean, if you're a human bad guy, you could just slip away in the confusion and if you can stay out of trouble for a few days, you're home free.  You'd think most of these rank and file guys would rather have a new lease on life than revenge on some goofy kid they only met once.   Once the villain army is wrapped up, Gero and Myuu sic Hell Fighter 17 on Vegeta, while the original #17 wanders off and tries to seduce his twin sister, Android #18.   I'm not really sure what his motives are exactly, but he does some sort of hypnotic thing to her, but when Krillin snaps her out of it, he kills him, then attacks 18 when she objects.  Maybe Gero wanted to use 18 in his plan, or this was 17's personality trying to fight his programming, but whatever.   Guess how Vegeta fights Hell Fighter 17.   If you said "base form", congratulations, you understand GT-Logic.   Gero and Myuu summon the other Android 17 to the battle, and they combine them together to make "Super Android 17", a taller, more eyebrow-deficient version.   Super 17 basically no-sells everything, and his secret weapon is that he can absorb energy from his opponents, just like #19 could do, except it actually works.   Vegeta, Trunks, Goten, Gohan, and Majuub all take turns getting their asses kicked, then they finally power up and do it all over again.   I should point out that the original, non-super, one-at-a-time 17 was more than a match for a Super Saiyan back in the day, and yet they all had to try fighting him in base form, just in case it suddenly works this time.  The whole thing is a pointless debacle, because we all know Super 17 is too strong for anyone but Goku to fight, so we're just marking time until he can show up to save the day.   Fortunately, Piccolo has an idea to free Goku, but he's stuck in heaven because he's a good guy.   The guy in charge of that sort of thing refuses to send Piccolo to hell, so Piccolo starts blowing shit up to deserve the punishment.  Once he arrives in hell, Piccolo starts duplicating the Android 17 thing.   He and Dende time their energy beams just right, and that creates a polaron inversion that realigns the warp field coils, allowing Goku to jump back to Earth.  Piccolo is unfortunately stuck in Hell now, but he gets to spend all his free time beating up bad guys, so he's probably happier that way.   Goku finally comes to the rescue and shockingly transforms to fight Super 17.   The only beef here is that he starts out in Super Saiyan.........1, the same form Vegeta used when he got his ass kicked.  After a short warmup, he finally gets down to business and whips out SSJ4.   The weird thing is that Super Saiyan 4 was GT's signature thing, and yet they barely ever let Goku use it.   It's like they were embarrassed or something.  It doesn't really matter anyway, because Super 17 can just absorb Goku's energy no matter how strong he is, so Goku gets beaten just as easily as his weaker allies.   I should point out that, along the way, Super 17 turned on both Dr. Gero and Dr. Myuu.   In Gero's case, Myuu secretly programmed Super 17 to only follow his own orders, but then he later blows up Dr. Myuu in an act of defiance, so it probably would have come to that no matter what.   The only thing that stops Super 17 is his sister. 18 shows up at the critical moment and demands revenge in spite of the odds.  Her rejection of what 17 has become stirs his original personality, and he manages to sabotage himself just enough that Goku can use 18's attack as a diversion and defeat him with a Super Dragon Fist.   For no obvious reason, 18 tears her blouse during this scene.   GT.  Logic.   So the saga ends as it began, with a character taking a dive to let a weaker character win.  Not that I was rooting for Super 17 or anything, but it doesn't really make Goku look special when he can't even fight his own battles.   On the other hand, Android 17 is finally, definitively killed, after years of being in a sort of limbo where no one really knew what had happened to him.  It's really the only death scene they let stick, so I guess I have to give some credit there.   The interface of hell and Earth causes environmental problems, so Goku resolves to find the Dragon Balls and use them to restore the Earth and resurrect Krillin.  Unfortunately, all seven Dragon Balls are cracked.   These are the good old Red Star Dragon Balls, by the way, the ones that don't blow up the Earth when you use them.   At least, they used to be reliable... NEXT: Breakin' my balls