#STanonrewatches

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STanon, I totally forgot that Eddie and Dustin exchange platonic ilys and it hits so much harder than the Mike ily like are you kidding me???? I’m crying so much

also I’ve seen someone else, idk who, mention this before and it’s so notable that everything Mike says in his speech is either vague or rooted in the past. “I love you on your good days and bad days” hi Mike wtf does that mean what specifically are you talking about

and then her only memory of Mike during that whole damn sequence is the three boys finding El in the woods, meanwhile regarding Max she has approximately 50 million and Max herself has so many of Lucas (and if the others too during Running Up That Hill, but mostly of Lucas)

and let’s not forget that they chose to have El remember “not Hopper, not Mike, you” and “there’s more to life than stupid boys” immediately after Mike’s speech

Oh do not remind me of Eddie, I'm still healing 😭

And that's the thing that struck me during his speech, how random and non specific it sounded.

Like, Mike has been dating her for over a year at that point and the best thing he could come up with was "You're my superhero and I love you on your good days and your bad days?"

I can say more about my friends than he can say about the girl he supposedly loved since he saw her? Bullshit.

He couldn't tell her he loves her tenacity and bravery? That he loves how loyal and strong she is? He couldn't say that he loved her wit and her humor, or that he loved the way she made him feel?

The thing about Mike's speech is that there's nothing about it that's specifically about El or about how she makes him feel (if we take the love out of the equation that is).

Even when he was talking to her during their argument he literally said: "You know what I think about you" not "you know how I feel about you". Her argument wasn't about your opinion of her Michael, was how you feel about her. Think ≠ Feel.

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STanon, first thought already is that Mike doesn’t seem like he’s gonna tell Eleven he loves her prior to the Piggyback, he seems like he was going to apologize

And he isn’t annoyed enough by Argyle interrupting, like actually annoyed, like he would be if it was gonna be an ily. he complains about pineapple on pizza but the entire scene becomes humorous when Argyle shows up and neither Mike nor El are shown to be upset with him for ruining the moment. instead the scene becomes comedic and the tone is only broken when it cuts to Will to show his angst

which means they wanted us to focus on Will’s sadness after this scene rather than Mike or El’s frustration regarding being interrupted at what could’ve been a love confession moment

Oh yeah, he definitely wasn't going to confess to anything! Because with the way he was phrasing everything, if I was El I'd be lived that he started a love confession with I guess –.

You guess what Michael? Hun!

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STanon, a couple more thoughts about Mike’s speech

“I knew in that moment, I loved you.” referring to the moment he found her in the woods

let’s imagine for a moment he’s doing what Will did with him, where Will poured out his feelings for Mike and pretended Eleven said it; instead, Mike is pouring out his heart to Will, but trying to say it to Eleven—let’s imagine this, and then recontextualize the sentence:

“I knew in that moment, when I felt such overwhelming confusion and fear and disappointment when I saw it wasn’t you, Will, I loved you.”

I could see it being a moment where, in hindsight for Mike, that’s a memory that helped him realize his feelings for Will have always been different

it’s also interesting Mike chose a memory (and the Duffers specifically harkened back on that memory with a flashback) where El couldn’t reciprocate. El, in that moment, was cold and wet and frightened and traumatized. she didn’t feel love for any of them in that moment and Mike couldn’t have felt any love for her, because they were complete and utter strangers.

the Duffers, who have gone on record to say they don’t believe in love at first sight, & the writers chose a moment where Mike and El were complete strangers, a moment neither of them chose, a moment that was happenstance, a moment where El was confused and scared and Mike was actively searching for Will, as the moment Mike claims he knew he loved El. knew, when he didn’t even know she was a girl, when he didn’t know her name, her voice, her personality, anything about her. that is not love.

and the Duffers obviously know this. any of the other writers would’ve gone, “hey guys how do we zhuzh this up so that there’s more depth and personalized moments, like how Max has her happy memory of the Snow Ball that takes place after a full season of getting to know Lucas?” and they’d have to talk about why the speech is so shallow and vague and Mike doesn’t mention any specifics beyond the first night they met and keeps emphasizing her being powerful and a superhero.

goodness gracious how anyone can watch this speech and not raise an eyebrow is beyond me, even back when I shipped M*leven I didn’t like the speech and didn’t feel Mike was being sincere and didn’t feel like the speech had any depth to it

This is such an interesting perspective on that whole dialogue.

We all know they don't believe in love at first sight, but you can tell that even the show tells you that.

Nancy didn't fall in love with Jonathan the first moment she saw him, the same can be said about Lucas and Max, or even Nancy and Steve if we think about it.

And that's exactly it! Mike can't say anything of substance to El, surely nothing heartfelt or meaningful, the closest he got was talking about her big shirt.

I've been meaning to ask you something too so I'll take this post as my way of doing so: what are you thoughts on the "I feel like my life started the day we found you in the woods"?

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STanon, we just watched the “you can’t even write it, Mike,” scene and my mom (the same one who can’t pick up on homoerotic subtext or queercoding for the life of her) agrees that Mike doesn’t have romantic feelings for her and is confusing pedastalization & his caretaking nature for romantic feelings

Ok but let's give your mom some credit because most reactors I see believe wholeheartedly that Mike loves Eleven, and I think it's because they take ST as face value which is ironic in a show that subversion tropes left, right and center and that talks about not believing everything you see but what do I know?

Regardless, your mom is absolutely right and deserves a sticker for her observations.

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STanon again and I never really processed how obviously by the time Troy tells Mike to jump off the cliff, Mike and Dustin know Will is still alive

but it is so fucked up that Troy told Mike to do what everyone in town believes happened to Will: fall off the quarry cliff into the lake

Hi again!

The quarry scene is something so crazy to me, because I do feel like it needs to be addressed somehow during season 5.

It felt like such a big moment, because yes, for one thing it shows that Troy is an incredibly disturbed person and that he was telling Mike to jump from a place where he assumed Mike's friend had died. It's like ridiculously fucked up like you said.

But f another thing it does it's give us insight on who Mike is as a person that many people seem to have forgotten due to how he behaved later on.

I have some thoughts on the scene but they broach on topics like suicidal thoughts so I just wanted to check if it's OK that I talk about it here (lemme know in the asks, and I mean you specifically or anyone else that might read this). But if it's triggering just let me know and I won't talk about it.

Regardless, it's an incredibly important scene for sure.

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STanon, last one for tonight, all we have left to rewatch is the finale of season 4 but man I cannot handle that one tonight so we’re not watching it tonight lol

I know there’s been discussion between about Mike putting Eleven on a pedestal and I haven’t gotten to his speech yet but I’ve read analysis and other posts here on this blog about it and the fact that it continues to put Eleven on that pedestal is so significant imo especially because of Mike’s apology to Will

in his apology he equalizes them. he tells Will he wants the two of them to be a team going forward. but the way Mike talks about Eleven in both the van and in his speech to her still elevates her above him. Mike and El aren’t a team. they’ve never functioned as a team.

pedestal vs equals

Hello!

This is one of the things I keep coming back to.

Mike always treats Will as his equal (let's do it as a team, together, we can), he never assumes Will is above him, and that's how relationships should work.

Relationships are about compromise, about finding equal footing, about understanding the other person and being there for them, they are not about treating the other person as if they're better than you.

I fully believe Mike idolizes El because she gives him s sense of security, but he should not be in a relationship with her because of it, it's not fair to her or to him.

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STanon, some commentary on e1 of season 3–

it’s funny how when I first watched season three, I thought Hopper was being entirely too protective and controlling regarding Mike and Eleven, but now that I’m a Byler shipper and I’ve seen more analysis and also since season four happened, I find his wording of his frustration with the situation extremely interesting

we all know that Hopper in season one both acknowledges that he was sexually active in high school so you would think that, even if he was being protective of El as his daughter, he would think them being all excitable and kissy in their first ever relationship would be “normal.” it happens all the time: hormones, inexperience, eagerness, the honeymoon stage of having your first ever bf/gf

but what Hopper says is this: it’s constant, it’s not normal, it’s not healthy.

not “it’s annoying” or “it’s inappropriate” or “they’re moving too fast” or anything I’d expect a father who’s stressed about his daughter growing up or who’s protective of her and wanting to shelter her from boys/kissing/eventually sex

constant, not normal, not healthy.

each one is so interest to me. constant and we see a great parallel between Mike and El, and Lucas and Max, where they’re dating and it’s clear they like each other but they’re not constantly sucking face and we see them having other interactions and fun exchanges of dialogue that make their relationship feel a bit more real. not normal despite Hopper having also been a hormonal young teenager who knows what having your first relationship is like so you would think that if this was “normal” he would recognize that even if he didn’t like, or that Joyce would call him out on it. not healthy which is a more emotion and psychology-heavy term and odd considering in this same scene Hopper is being very emotion-avoidant.

hell even my mom started agreeing lol like when Hopper said it was the first day in 6 months that Mike and El haven’t met up at the cabin she was like “whoa that’s way too much” and we both agreed that the way Eleven told Mike he could still come visit her even though he was telling her his grandma wasn’t okay also wasn’t healthy. imo it’s bordering a bit close to codependency which is why I’m really glad she and Max start hanging out.

Hello! This is one thing that always got to me too!

What Hopper says about Mike and El's relationship is very telling, because like you said, he didn't said they were annoying of that they were going too fast.

No, what he says about it is that it isn't normal or healthy, and we sure, we can assume he's exaggerating at first, however we'd soon learn he isn't.

Will talks about Mike blowing them off all summer to be with El, he's constantly around her and she's constantly around him.

Some of Mike's behavior lead me to believe he was in dealing with limerence, obsessing over Eleven in order not to deal with other things. And if we are on the team bisexual Mike Wheeler it might further help with this hypothesis.

At one point, they were becoming too connected, almost codependent on some levels.

And we can't excuse that on them being teenagers, while most teenagers might experiment and get into relationships, most of them do have emotional maturity to navigate friendships and being in relationships.

And while during season 3 Mike was acting like this towards everyone, in season 4 it became clearer that he had Will adjacent issues he needed to deal with because he never sent Will any letters.

One thing to note as well, as that Mike - who's usually defensive - made no attempts to tell Will he was trying to call and talk to him, and I me wonders why.

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STanon here, you can combine this one with the one I just sent earlier about Mike’s avoidance of saying ily to Eleven face to face

you’d think that, if what Mike was afraid of was the vulnerability and insecurity of saying ily, Eleven saying ily to him in season 2’s finale should, narratively, resolve this. his feelings are reciprocated! El was vulnerable with him! so since a year has, or nearly that, has passed, and we know they’ve been in constant contact, this should no longer be an issue, character-wise and narratively.

unless the reason behind him being unable to say it isn’t insecurity or vulnerability.

THIS!

He had no reason to doubt whether or not she felt the same, when she brings up you can see he looks and feels flustered but when she tells him she loves him he straight up looks like he's about to jump out of the window due to sheer panic.

He looks horrified and terrified and absolutely confused about everything.

Like, if his fear was that she didn't feel the same that was resolved, so what was the real reason he couldn't tell her he loved her? Mayhaps because he doesn't love her like that? But what do I know?

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STanon; a couple thoughts about the junkyard Byler scene in season 4

dude the shots in that scene. the wide shots and specifically the shot through the car window. it feels like we’re spying on an intimate conversation, way more than I’ve ever felt before on this show

then Mike says he “didn’t know what to say,” to Eleven in regards to saying what he should’ve said/what she wanted to hear, but dude, bro, Mike, my guy, you know what she wanted. “didn’t know what to say” sure sounds a whole lot like “I couldn’t say what she wanted me to say because I can’t say it the way she wants me to” because of course he knew what to say, but if he said it, it would be a lie

and then what Will says in response; it is so easy to only think of it in terms of his own personal feelings, which is I think what the general/casual audience mainly thinks of with this scene, but damn oh damn is the precise wording incredibly suspicious especially because Mike nods in agreement.

here it is, word for word:

“sometimes, I think it’s just scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel, especially to people you care about the most. because, what if, what if they don’t like the truth?”

really feel. truth. and Mike agrees! he nods along, he doesn’t look like he disagrees.

why frame it as the truth if we’re supposed to already know, from season 3, that he loves her?

(my mom agrees with this too lol, tho she still hasn’t picked up on Will loving Mike, instead she said “Will loves her more than Mike does” (in a familial way) again, she cannot pick up on queercoding 💀)

Henlo again

Ok so, about the junkyard scene. You mentioned this: "dude the shots in that scene. the wide shots and specifically the shot through the car window. it feels like we’re spying on an intimate conversation, way more than I’ve ever felt before on this show"

And that is one of the things I was referring to when I talked about Vecna possibly watching the kids for a while now. That scene is amazingly shot but as you put it, it feels like we are spying on them, or hearing something we shouldn't be.

So it could be a couple of things: It could be because Vecna has indeed been spying on them and that's why we are put in that perspective.

It could be a parallel to other moments in storytelling where a character hears something that gives them insight into what is happening which would be fascinating considering what you said before about Will's specific phrasing and Mike nodding along to it.

"sometimes, I think it’s just scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel, especially to people you care about the most. because, what if, what if they don’t like the truth?”

If we think that we are being introduced to a conversation as if we are a character that's hearing to them (because that's how the shot feels like to me, like you said, it's like you're listening in their conversation) than there's something to pick up in it as well.

But we already should know the truth, we assume we do know the truth, so it's like you said, why frame it like that.

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STanon, man that ily speech is so rough. you can hear Mike’s desperation but it’s incredibly strained, like obviously of course he’s afraid of losing her of course he doesn’t want her to die but he damn sure wasn’t about to tell her he loves her until Will pushed him to do it, and like it’s been discussed before—the painting should’ve been enough to not need Will’s intervention

it’s just like….i can hear the lie in his voice. it’s so different from his season two speech to Will

Hello again haha

Oh it is different! He didn't want to tell her a lie, but he was growing more and more desperate and he didn't want to lose her, so he did what he had to.

Tbh if Mike wanted to tell El he loved her, he could have done it when they found her after she left Nina, but he didn't.

Imagine he hugs her, kisses her and it's like: I didn't say it before but I love you, so much and it would've been perfect.

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STanon, popping in because I’m pretty sure my mom also didn’t realize that Will likes Mike even after the van scene. I truly dont even know if she realized Will is gay. There’s just something about the heteronormative lens het people view the world through that just…….doesn’t even let them view queerness as an option. It’s incredibly frustrating, and it’s especially frustrating to me that people needed Noah to be like “yeah guys Will is gave and in love with Mike” in interviews for people to even realize it.

Hello! Is nice to hear from you again!!

Like, I can even somewhat understand people assuming Will's love Will never be reciprocated, but not seeing he is gay and in love with Mike is completely beyond me.

Like, is literally right in front of your eyes, the next thing the Duffers brothers could do was put it on Times Square for everyone to see that he's gay and in love with his friend.

How can people be this blind? I genuinely don't get it.

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STanon, just finished episode 7

so they establish that love makes El stronger and the scene of her getting the strength to banish One from the memory of her mother telling her she loves her directly parallels Mike trying to give her strength and saying ily, right?

well they can’t rehash that in season 5. aka they aren’t gonna have a scene where Mike declares his love for Eleven to give her strength to defeat Vecna once and for all. so. if they wanted that scene of Mike telling her he loves her to result in M*leven being endgame, then they would’ve saved it for season 5. because it’s not like his ily speech fixes their relationship. they aren’t talking by the end of the season. they could’ve ended the season with Mike still being unable to say ily, or maybe there just isn’t a speech at all, maybe just Mike and Will and Jonathan hold her hands and say “hang in there” and “we’re right here it’s okay” and they just fully focus on Eleven and Max and don’t try to make it a speech moment.

and then end season 4 with M*leven broken up or not talking still and have Mike’s ily speech be the big sweeping confession of love that gives El strength. that’s what makes sense if you want to parallel love giving El strength if you want that love to be coming from Mike.

but they didn’t do this. so I think love defeating Vecna is going to come from a different source. either familial love for El or Byler’s love, or maybe both, and maybe love from the others’ relationships.

but not romantic love between M*leven.

Hello!

That's one of the main things I keep coming back to, as well.

If they wanted Mike and El to be the endgame couple, they should have left that speech to season 5.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I'm still convinced Mike's speech would have been way more usefull if it focused on his platonic love for El.

There's no really small letters in the contract that claim only romantic love works. If we think about it: Joyce's, Jonathan's and Mike's love for Will helped him break Will from his trance, Max's love for Lucas and for the party helped her break out of Vecna's hold, Billy's love for his mother and even for Max (as twisted as it was) was what broke him out the mindflayer possession, so clearly is not only about romantic love.

He could've told her he was an amazing person, could've told her about finding her in the woods and about how much she means to him and it would have worked, we all know this.

So if they wanted to give El and advantage and keep this big moment for the last season they could have and they would have, but they didn't, instead they used during season 4 knowing fully well a next season would exist.

And while Mike's speech may have worked (rereading the scene and the situation) it didn't have the full effect we know it could have had considering this El we're talking about and that it took way too long to work.

And exactly this, if the problem- the real problem that is - is that Mike couldn't tell El he loved her, he did say in the end, like 890 times. So, that should've fixed them, right? That should've been enough for her to be like Yay!

But instead she doesn't speak to him, doesn't acknowledge him at all, and even seems a bit pissed tbh. So how exactly did it help their relationship issues?

I even made a post about how I think Will's love Will play into deleting Vecna, but I also believe that if they want Byler to be endgame, they might subvert our expectations and have that big moment coming from Mike instead.

P.S: I just noticed that instead of deleting Vecna my auto corrector went for deleting and I thought it was too amusing for me to correct lmao

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STanon, I totally forgot that Mike was completely unable to say the word “love” to Eleven in the grocery store

he does say things like “I’ve never felt this way before,” which obviously lends itself to a romantic interpretation, and Mike means it in that way, but for it to come after he’s already blurted out an “I love her,” literally only an hour or two prior, and then nearly a year later he still can’t say it to her……Mike honey

Hello!

I still go back to that moment even to this day.

Why was it so easy for him to blurt out in front of everyone but not to say it to her right then and there?

Me wonders

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ST writers room:

Writer 1: so how do we make this “I love you” speech even more painful for Will to listen to?

Writer 2: Oh, how about we have Mike say that he feels like his whole life began the day he met Eleven

Writer 1: You mean the night after Will went missing?

Writer 3: Yes, yes! Genius! Write that down!😈

(And if their goal was the make the speech as painful for Will as possible then there has to be a resolution to that wherein all that pain is repaid as gentleness and love and reciprocation, at least imo)

No exactly this!

I just made a post ranting about this because more and more I keep seeing people say:

It' be rushed, or I don't think it's going to happen and don't tell us why.

I mean, the Duffers could be the worse assholes to ever asshole, sure, but will they be?

Did they make a gay kid who has already been through enough fall in love (unnecessarily if I may add) with his best friend, just for the thing he already thinks will happen to happen?

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STanon, not really a Byler thing but more of an internalized homophobia thing

I really wish they had explored more of Billy’s queercoding and internalized homophobia and toxic masculinity because so much of what we see in his season 3 memories that Eleven walks through parallel Will

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they named two characters William (just double checked to make sure that Billy isn’t his birth name and yeah his gravestone reads William Hargrove) and then paralleled them so greatly

the most notable parallel to me is how in season 1, in a flashback we see that Lonnie was supposed to take Will to a baseball game but never showed up. Will admits he doesn’t like baseball when Jonathan presses and and we find out that Lonnie has been trying to force both his sons to like “manly” things—he made Jonathan shoot a rabbit when hunting when he was nine. for Billy, we find out that he played baseball as a kid but his dad got angry that he didn’t slide into base, accusing Billy of being afraid of being hurt, after which he called Billy a “p—y”

on that front—both Lonnie and Billy’s dad have called their William different variations of homophobic slurs

Joyce and Lonnie got into verbal fights, with Lonnie as the abuser. Billy’s parents got into physical fights (his mom threw a plate at his dad, his dad punched her) with his dad as the abuser.

Lonnie left. Billy’s mom left.

Under the care of his loving mom and without his abusive dad, Will stayed sensitive and loving. Under the control of his abusive father and without his loving mom, Billy became angry and violent.

Will is bullied for being (presumably, as far as his bullies were aware) gay. Billy became the bully and called his victims “p—y” just like his homophobic dad.

Will got an adopted sister in Eleven. Billy got a step-sister in Max.

Both were victimized by and possessed by the Mind Flayer.

Billy moved from California to Hawkins. Will moved from Hawkins to California.

part of me feels like a reason they didn’t confirm that Billy was gay or bi is because it would likely come across as a “bury your gays” moment but I truly feel like this interpretation helps support the theme of how destructive homophobia and internalized homophobia and heteronormativity is.

[insert Eddie’s “it’s forced conformity—it’s what’s killin’ the kids!” gif here]

Hello!

Tbh I never thought about Billy's possibly being queer, but now that you mentioned I can definitely see the parallels.

Him calling people "p–y" definitely feels like it might be a case of internalized homophobia.

And yeah, I do think them trying to avoid certain reused and harmful tropes such as bury your guys may be a reason why didn't address Billy's possible queerness.

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season 1 anon back again, on episode 4 now and wow is the dressing up Eleven scene so queercoded

like obviously there’s the character-driven aspect of Eleven seeing herself as a “normal girl”/feminine for the first time because of the conditions she grew up in, so it’s a very important point in her own personal journey of wanting to live a normal life

but at its core the scene is about the clear gender affirming euphoria that comes with Eleven, who up to this point had only been dressed in a hospital gown, an oversized tshirt, and boy’s clothes, dressing in a feminine way which is already a clear allusion to the trans experience

then there’s the part of Mike putting the makeup on Eleven, specifically the part where he’s putting the lipstick on, where more than anything he seems to be focused on the technical aspect of it. he’s not nervous about being so close to El or about staring at her lips. it might be a bit cliche or stereotypical to theorize but an interest in make-up is often queer-coded in both media and real life, so I think us seeing Mike be so comfortable with it rather than confused at each product is notable and, in a future viewing after Byler is canon, I think will lend itself to a queer interpretation.

Hello again

I'm really enjoying your rewatch thoughts btw, it's really fun to hear them!

Like, what you mentioned about El flew over my head ngl but you made some interesting points about it. It didn't even occur to me that it could be an allusion to the trans experience but it does make sense given the context.

And as for Mike, it really lends itself to a more queer perspective especially because as you mentioned, he wasn't blushing or staring at her, he was more focused on doing things properly which was something that he me going 🤔 when I first watched it and with everything else you said just puts everything into perspective.

I'm loving that you continue to share your thoughts and I hope you come back soon.

Have a great day 😀