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shieldofrohan · 5 years ago

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I was struck by your idea that there may be a Jonsa political marriage in TWOW or early in ADOS because I could NOT figure out why they made all those parallels between them and Ned/Cat in the show without addressing it. But, your idea worries me because in s7 they compared J/D to Rhaegar/Lyanna, and while I can't imagine Jon being unfaithful, Dany falling in love with Jon was what brought her North. So how does that/the love triangle we saw on the show play out if Jonsa is already married?

Hello @esther-dot! First of all thank you for your ask, people don’t ask me anything usually so your ask made me really happy.

I wrote a long answer I guess, sorry :

First let me say that: I think we are giving too much credit to show. After S4 the show kind of stopped following the books. I mean look at the S5 Ramsay/Sansa nonsense. D&D made it clear that GRRM gave them some important scenes for them to work with so I see the show as a slide-show of some scenes from books tbh. For example the arrival of the Knights of the Vale was sth you can find the hints of it in the books. Or the trial and death of Baelish by the hand of Sansa. Even the death of Daenerys was foreshadowed in the books. But the plots to get to those scenes were all D&D if you ask me. So they had to fill the gaps and they did it how they wanted.

At this point I really can’t see a version of Asoiaf without a jonsa plot. Jonsa is the most foreshadowed plot in the books. The hints are starting in the prologue of the AGOT and they keep going in the AFFC and ADWD, and you can even find hints in other books of GRRM. Jonsa foreshadowings are surrounded by marriage and children imagery. So not having a jonsa marriage or kids seems unlikely to me.

I am looking at the j*nerys foreshadowings and they are all about them being enemies. For example these two chapters that follow each other:

“No. Dany shivered. No, no, oh no.“Are you deaf, fool?” Reznak mo Reznak demanded of the man. “Did you not hear my pronouncement? See my factors on the morrow, and you shall be paid for your sheep.” “Reznak,” Ser Barristan said quietly, “hold your tongue and open your eyes. Those are no sheep bones.” No, Dany thought, those are the bones of a child.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.” The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

The next morning Xaro’s galleas was gone, but the “gift” that he had brought her remained behind in Slaver’s Bay. Long red streamers flew from the masts of the thirteen Qartheen galleys, writhing in the wind. And when Daenerys descended to hold court, a messenger from the ships awaited her. He spoke no word but laid at her feet a black satin pillow, upon which rested a single bloodstained glove. “What is this?” Skahaz demanded. “A bloody glove …” “… means war,” said the queen.

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There’s a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.“It is worse than I feared, my lord,” Marsh announced when he was done. He sounded gloomier than Dolorous Edd.Jon had just been thinking that all the meat in the world surrounded them. You know nothing, Jon Snow. “How so? This seems a deal of food to me.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

Dizzy, Dany closed her eyes. When she opened them again, she glimpsed the Meereenese beneath her through a haze of tears and dust, pouring up the steps and out into the streets.The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogon’s neck and cried, “Higher!” Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogon’s wide black wings beat the air. Dany could feel the heat of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!”

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

Jon clasped the offered hand. The words of his oath rang through his head. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

***

I really try to see some romantic hints in those but I can’t find them. So why did D&D choose to do j*nerys instead of jonsa? Let’s face it: Their main audience are locals and Dany lovers. People were waiting them to bang... (ew). And when he was asked about Grrm’s intentions about Jon and Dany, Alan Taylor (director) said that he can’t tell what Grrm said because it is a S8 twist. So even the most j*nerys shipper director couldn’t confirm that j*nerys was sth Grrm told them about. What Grrm told them was a S8 twist, which turned out to be Jon killing Daenerys. I bet they chose the route of a romance instead of them being enemies (Dance of Dragons 2.0 ?!?!?!) so they could shock the audience with the final twist (a poor choice i must say).

So what I am trying to say is that: j*nerys is probably not a book thing. Or at least it can only be one sided in the books. Look at the S7-8 Jon Snow.. they made him so OOC to be in love with Dany... I am sure that Book!Jon won’t be in love with Dany. To be fair, I even can’t see Jon in Dragonstone or etc. Traveling during a White Walker threat is not a good idea. He won’t have such a time to go to DS and fall in love with someone like Dany. Dany is a combination of Cersei, Joffrey, Stannis, Selyse and Melisandre... Can you imagine Jon falling for those? No I don’t think so. I mean there is even dragon glass in Skagos... why would he bother to go DS? And we know that Dragons don’t like North and I can’t image using the fire threat to beat the ice threat... So her dragons won’t be the main forces against the Others.

I tried to explain why Show!J*nerys was so forced to please the audience and how it was a fan service plot. But still an one-sided j*nerys can happen in the books. There are more foreshowings for this tbh. I am imaging an Aerys-Joanna-Tywin kind of triangle in the books.

I mean look at this: (I have examined the Jon chapters that follow Dany ones in the ADWD and there were some interesting things. Maybe i’ll write a meta about them one day but for now let’s focus on one hint that I found interesting)

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.” “As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

[...]

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly.

[A Dance with Dragons; Daenerys]

This is Daenerys’ wedding chapter and she learns about her father’s jealousy about Tywin and Joanna’s marriage.

And bonus: she also wishes that Daario to take her away like Rhaegar did with his Stark lady. So in her wedding chapter she mentions the love between a Targaryen prince and a Stark lady.

But she also knows that no one is coming for her.

And Jon chapter follows this chapter. And he talks about: his dislike for Selyse and Melisandre, kinslaying, daggers in dark, the grey girl. So he won’t like Daenerys either, kinslaying is an important hint (both for Dany-Viserys and Jon-Daenerys) and I bet that Grey Girl is Sansa.

Now we know that Dany is Aerys 2.0 with dragons and she will end what her father has started by burning down KL. So in this triangle Dany is Aerys.

And who are Joanna and Tywin?

The first J+T pair she’ll meet will be Aegon and Arianna probably. They are cousins too and Aegon chose not to be just a consort to his aunt by marrying her, so he’ll probably choose Arianne to gain Dorne’s support. I always consider Aegon (fake or not) and Arianne as a warning for Daenerys about Jonsa. Aegon has parallels with Sansa and Jon (secret identity with different hair color and secret Targ parentage etc). And Arianne has parallels with Sansa (The girl in the tower trope). So those two will be a test for Daenerys before she meets with Jon and Sansa. But her main test will be with Jonsa.

Jonsa fit into Joanna/Tywin pair more. They are cousins and they grew up together and after them being reunited they will be very important for each other.

And let’s not forget about the fact that Tywin was the Hand of Aerys and he betrayed him and his son Jaime killed Aerys in the throne room... We are all aware of the parallels between Jaime and Jon already. But Jon was also her adviser and she wanted to rule the 7K with him. But in the end he betrayed her. I believe that Jon’s Ygritte arc might be useful for him to lure Dany into some false trust. But him sleeping with her and loving her and later lose her in his arms sounds like a cheap copy of Ygritte/Jon plot and it makes no sense.

I think Dany will be taken with him and he’ll use this but it doesn’t mean that they will be lovers. Because it seems like Grrm is going to use RLJ in Jon’s romantic life (like he planned in the original/first outline with Jon-Arya romance). And RLJ has no effect on j*nerys. They can still f*ck and marry...

I mean Grrm even put an uncle-niece marriage (Jonnel-Sansa Stark!!) in the Stark family tree to show that Starks have no problem with marrying with their uncles/aunts etc. Grrm only considers the marriages between siblings and parent-children as incest. So j*nerys is not a doomed love. But for jonsa; RLJ makes everything smooth. Therefore RLJ must be used in jonsa plot.

So Dany is the Aerys of the triangle and no Targaryen prince will come for her because they are busy with their Stark ladies. (Rhaegar- Lyanna and also maybe Jacaerys and Sara Snow?)

To explain the early Jonsa political marriage, I must say that I was inspired by the Grand Northern Conspiracy. According to this theory, Howland Reed is the keeper of Robb’s Will about Jon and he is also the one who knows about RLJ.

It does not go north with Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, who expressly carry false letters, and is often feared lost at the Twins in the chaos following the Red Wedding. Another possibility, however, is that the document was secreted away in Hag’s Mire and has now been retrieved by Lady Stoneheart. Who in turn, for a real kicker of an ironic twist, delivers the suspected proof of Jon’s kingship to Greywater Watch for safekeeping, care of Howland Reed, who then knows more of the crowns Jon’s entitled to than any other man living in the world of ASOIAF.

https://zincpiccalilli.tumblr.com/post/52748381148

Let’s accept this theory and say that Howland has the Will. Without his proof other lords can’t just announce Jon as the KITN. I believe that Howland will be present at Winterfell to show the Will. But Howland was also a friend of Ned Stark. And he is loyal to House Stark. He kept RLJ as secret for years to protect the Starks and Jon from Robert’s wrath. But Robert is dead and he has no reason to keep this secret anymore. And I can’t imagine him sitting quietly while other lords declare Jon as the King while a true born Stark (Sansa) is sitting right there. He wouldn’t betray Ned’s memory like that. So he’ll spill the tea with RLJ too. And after that maybe Sansa will finally have some agency for her choice of husband. So them together will be the one answer of North’s all wishes.

And let’s not forget that GRRM said he knows which characters will end up married. But in the show there was no marriage. So I am still waiting a marriage.

And even with an early Jonsa marriage, Jon and Dany might still meet. Imagine S7 with a married Jonsa. Jon leaves Sansa to fight a battle. It would be a great parallel with NedCat. Ned left Cat while she was pregnant to go to war. And maybe there will be rumors about Jon and Dragon Queen just like how Ned betrayed Cat. But like Ned, Jon would be loyal to Sansa and North too in truth.

Maybe Jon will gain Dany’s trust and help her against Aegon. And return she’ll accept to help North. But in the end I don’t think that Dany will come/or stay in North. Also in the Jon chapter that comes after Dany one, Jon was warned against Dragons:

“Salladhor Saan?” “The Lysene pirate? Some say he has returned to his old haunts, this is so. And Lord Redwyne’s war fleet creeps through the Broken Arm as well. On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.” “Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.” “My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh. We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.” No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

[A Dance with Dragons; Jon]

Maybe Dany will want sth more from Jon and will be jealous of Jon and Sansa just like her father was jealous of Tywin and Joanna. Maybe Jon will betray her in most unexpected time just like Tywin betrayed Aerys.

Btw I am still waiting for a battle between Daenerys and Jon in Trident after he betrayed Dany. (You know Dany dreamed about a fighting against an usurper in ice armor in Trident... Jon will be the Usurper because he’ll be the King of North and Dany will see North as a part of her Kingdom.)

So my timeline would be like this:

- Jon and Sansa reunite and take North back

- The Will and RLJ happen and they unite their claims by marriage

- A dance between Aegon and Daenerys and she loses a dragon

- Jon gains her trust only to use her and pacify her to protect the North during the Dance

- Him refusing the bend the knee and them becoming enemies

- Daenerys loses one of her dragons

- Daenerys and Euron being a chaotic duo for Westeros

- Daenerys burns down KL and marches to North for revenge

- North (aka Jon) vs Daenerys in Trident

- Daenerys dies and Drogon gets hurt

- Jon refusing the throne so he can go back to North (the Duncan of Dragonflies jumped out)

- Bran becomes King

- Jon returns North to fight against the Others etc. (I refuse believe that he’ll be punished and sent back to Wall? Grrm literally has to kill him to free him from Night’s Watch so I don’t see him returning there)

- Epiloge.

***

Well I talked too much about too many things but I hope my answer was not such a bullsh*t :)

Thanks again for the ask. Let me know your thoughts.

#ask #answer #@esther-dot #jonsa #grrm #asoiaf #aerys targaryen #joanna lannister #tywin lannister #jon snow #sansa stark #dod2.0 #anti got #actually jonsa #reply #mine

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ylizam · 4 years ago

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5, 12, 18 :)

5. what is your favorite overused trope?

hm. I am a big fan of “marriage” of convenience (in which I put marriage in quotes because, honestly, legal marriage doesn’t have to be involved! partnerships of convenience! co-habitation of convenience! etc.!), like give it all to me. also friends-to-lovers AND enemies-to-lovers, bonus points for all of the above (enemies-to-friends-to-lovers, friends-to-enemies-to-lovers, and on and on and on). huddling for warmth and/or safety or whatever! which has the bonus of being more readily available in canon. oh and fake dating is always a winner in my book.

12. if you could change one ending to a book/show/game/etc, what would you change about it?

see this presumes I ever watch the end of a thing in which I’m emotionally invested. (have I watched the entirety of the final season of The West Wing? you bet I have not! I have seen selected excerpts and I’ve read about it but that is all!)

so, okay, we’ll go with Star Wars (main trilogies version; this does not go into anything but the prequel/original/sequel trilogies okay). which is to say: do not give me the exciting new dude who leaves the stormtroopers and then, oh, decide he’s a background character and instead we’re going to focus on the bad guy who was the son of that couple you loved. (also the exciting female jedi, which is good! only, um, let’s make sure everyone is related to someone from the previous films because no one can be unrelated to the big families that way leads to something something, lightning fingers!) I mean the problem of course that to change things adequately you’d really have to go back and redo the entire sequel trilogy and also Rose should get to do things and maybe Leia goes out like Holdo (which, fine, is Carrie Fisher dying hindsight and now I’ve made myself sad) and, honestly, this is a thing I am bad at but also I’m not running a gazillion dollar film series so I can just say it: have a fucking plan for the entire storyline from the fucking beginning, holy shit, and if you use more than one writer/directer LET THEM ALL IN ON IT.

p.s. have canon queer characters and no background characters don’t count if you’re gonna have people fall in love in your stories then some of those romances have to be actually canonically on-screen queer and not just hinted at or portrayed by the actors in a way the writers/creators need to try to erase (bi characters who fall in love with someone of another gender? great! awesome! characters who have been played as in love with someone of the same gender who then have other gender love interests thrust upon them in a way that is clearly trying to erase any hint of queerness instead of being part of it? not good! bad even!).

ahem.

also, and this is again a thing I have not watched, but maybe Bernie and Serena needed to go off into the sunset together in the end because seriously that’s 100% what you fucking foreshadowed when they broke up okay.

18. characters you want to wrap in a blanket and tell them they’re going to be okay?

Serena Campbell, obvs. also Gillian Greenwood (also I’d provide booze). a young Kira Nerys. Michael Burnham forever needs to be wrapped in a blanket and told she’s going to be okay and that she’s enough and that she is loved and cared for and no seriously stay in the blanket for a minute or two. these are just a few examples, but honestly so many characters (whether or not they’d appreciate it, which is another question altogether).

[fandom asks meme!]

#fandom asks meme #anyway i was sad no one asked me anything yesterday #but no the notifications just didn't show up #this includes mentions of:#star trek: disco!#star trek: ds9 #last tango in halifax #star wars #holby city #long post #ktlsyrtis

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a-stitch-in-time-and-space · 5 years ago

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Queers in Space (DS9 Edition) Part 1 (Seasons 1-midway season 5)

Continuation to Queers in Space (TNG)

Benjamin Sisko: Similar to Picard's Captain-Gender, Sisko is Dad (some characters, like Julian, might occasionally look at him and think Daddy, mainly when he's being Righteous). He’s very caught up in caring about everything and is just happy he’s got such a large family (although he wishes there were more babies he could dote on). What he otherwise really loves is getting pegged by beautiful women.

Kasidy Yates: Speaking of women who peg... She uses she/her pronouns and “woman” but her relationship to gender is like... not relevant. Not needed. Whatever. Call me whatever and I'll respond to it. And she's pan. She's been in space for long enough to have realised that attraction is attraction. Chaotic bench, I love her.

Jake Sisko: he's a burgeoning bisexual, Byron is his literary inspiration and he's the only man on DS9 who's pretty consistently half-well-dressed (you cannot change my mind about this). He and Nog have tested kissing. Mayhaps they may try out more in future.

Kira Nerys: Her lesbianism was so powerful that she was barely allowed to interact with other women (mirror!Kira may have been a bad bisexual trope, but she was also far closer to the truth). Not just a lesbian, but stompin' about in her butch boots and padded shoulders for the first half of the series, damn! All those guys she keeps dating are her beards.

Jadzia Dax: Omnisexual, poly, genderqueer babe - the poly part is why I cannot fully ship her with Worf, even though I love that she’s with a partner she can spar with (in ahem multiple ways). The whole point of trill is to experience life to the fullest and Jadzia takes that brief very seriously (that is canon!). At heart she's also very romantic. The fact that she and Nerys don't seem to have any storylines together is homophobia.

Julian Bashir: Trans, queer, dork. He canonically comes aboard knowing nothing about himself or the universe, he's just here to learn and have a good time and be an idealistic hero and accidentally fall in love with both his best friend and a lizard spyman and we're here cheering that wonderful foot-fetishist on like proud parents (Benjamin has literally sat him down to give him his blessing, but also express his confusion about his tastes).

Elim Garak: Blessed by the mouth of Andy Robinson himself, omnisexual and into Julian and down to clown and generally just a chaotic energy of fun and murder and sex, in whatever order. I read a thing about Cardassians choosing gender through specific make-up and the blue mark on the forehead, and they're all intersex and honestly Yes This! Garak opted out. He dresses like the genderqueer slut icon he is.

Miles O'Brien: I could go 50 different places with him. At first I wrote him off as a straight cis guy, but then as DS9 went on I became less sure... for one, there's Julian and the poly marriage with Keiko and Nerys. For two... it'd be fun if he were gendershrug. “I'm an engineer, I haven't got time to think about that” - does this open up the possibility that in the future all humans choose their own gender? I mean, the federation is supposed to be a form of minor utopia, so yes, and Miles just never got around to it and never will.

Keiko O'Brien: My poly, pan queen. I didn't see her and Nerys coming at aaaall and may I just say I am thrilled. It's what she deserves. She has two hands and a large heart (and a large bed too). She's a lady, but by now I've entirely decided that cis just doesn't exist at that point in the future. Gender is A Choice and she liked the sound of woman and like with everything else she liked the sound of, she grabbed it with both hands and went “mine” (she did that with Miles and Nerys as well).

Worf (Part 2): Ds9 is when Worf got more interesting to me. He was fine on TNG, but here, my word. Both the worst and the best. Okay, yes, he's very monogamous, I will relent. But also he's got a much bigger bi energy going for him, which I celebrate. On that note, if Garak isn't his type, what kinda person is? I'm assuming he's just not into Cardassians as a rule, because of their culture-biases. He likes a partner who'll punch him in the face before propositioning with all their cards on the table. What he needs is to get pegged.

Odo: Ace and aro. He’s full of love. In order to mimic “solids” he tries to make sense of his emotions from their perspectives and so comes to the conclusion that he definitely isn’t allowed to love Quark and definitely ought to be in romantic love with Nerys, but once he understands himself better, he doesn’t feel such a need to limit himself. He has unlimited hands you guys!!!! (sometimes he has no hands, but that doesn’t limit him either). He’s tried out various body shapes, and he likes the sound of “man.” He can’t place his finger on why, and honestly he doesn’t have to. It’s his identity. Hope he realises how loved he is.

Quark: He thought he was your average straight man on the station, but ds9 has a way of bringing out your true colours and it turns out he’s in love with an occasional bucket of goo. He expresses this by snarking at aforementioned goo-man. This isn’t even me, this is just... canon facts. Ferengi have strong binary genders. Quark is a man, but he’s later not-so-secretly sympathetic towards people who veer away from binary gender, such as...

Rom: Is “not having the lobes for business” code for being trans-femme? Kinda feeling it is. In a way it’s harder to be trans-masc, simply because afab people in Ferengi culture have a much harder time escaping the home planet in order to explore themselves, and Rom will eventually launch a campaign for equality for trans Ferengi (what is “trans” in Ferengi?) Also he’s more ace than he realises. He has urges (that one episode... definitely proved that), but they’re not directed at anyone. He likes being loved. Surprisingly sex doesn’t play as big a role in that as he might’ve thought it would.

Nog: "Doesn’t have the lobes for business” but is kinda chill about gender. Probably due to having grown up amongst other humanoids. Especially come starfleet academy he fully embraces gender and sexuality definitions as being “eh” to him. It’s not his interest, so he doesn’t define it. That being said, he’s also somewhere along the bi/pan spectrum.

Leeta: Pan-ace. She likes a certain amount of attention, and she has strong sensual attraction and she doesn’t mind sex, but as long as she’s loving and loved, she’s happy. After dumping Julian (like they both deserve), she gets a bunch of sugar-parents, who pay her school for her. It’s like hunger games out there, with how every one of them tries to impress her the most. She likes the attention and she loves studying, she can do it all. Be a bombshell and a smart cookie.

Gul Dukat: His gender and sexuality are “idiot clown-man.”

#ds9 #benjamin sisko #kira nerys #julian bashir #jadzia dax #elim garak #jake sisko #kasidy yates #miles o'brien #keiko o'brien #quark #odo #nog #gul dukat #worf #I haven't watched all of it but I couldn't wait #writing

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fedonciadale · 6 years ago

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Fuck Jon. I really think the fucker is in love with that dragon bitch. Bitch threatens my Sansa and he’s all like ok cool, she’ll make a good Queen, she’s not her father. Then the shit for brains proceeds to actually try and get Arya on his team, effectively trying to pit her against her own sister. Well Arya put him in his place, ain’t no one going to separate the she wolf pack. I’m ditching Jonsa, Jon doesn’t deserve her and officially shipping the Stark sisters!

Spoiler alert

I answer this together with two other asks, if you don’t mind.

- I am a Jonsa shipper, but jon nearly lost me here with his shittalking Sansa. How do I believe he’s in love with her if his first breath to A/rya is “Who tf does sansa think she is?” I still believe pol!jon because the romance scenes are still awkward and not romantic, but I just don’t know how to reconciles Jon’s shitty, bitchy little attitude to the smartest woman in westeros.

- Jon is love with D. He blindly loyalty follows her even after Sam told him what she did, even after she actually almost threatened Sansa. I also noticed he was leaning towards her and away from Sansa in the meeting with the northern lords. They were leaning into each other. I find I can forgive him though, I just don’t want him for Sansa anymore.

so, dear nonnies,

I’ve said it before and I say it again now. I won’t lose faith in our theories until all is said and done. For the moment, I fear that they are going to do a ��Winterhell’ plot move and not prepare us for anything and then pull the rug. I do think it is significant that we do not see what Jon answered to Sansa’s question whether he bent the knee for the North or for love. But to have it come out of the blue, that would be bad writing. Sigh.

I mean I can sort of can understand Jon, if he wants to keep all his secrets, because he thinks it is too dangerous. He only looked happy, when he met Sam, Bran and Arya and the romance with Da€nerys is still off. Varys said over the marriage speculation that “Nothings lasts”. I mean this is a red flag. Also I think that Da€nerys instigating Jon to climb that dragon and giving no shit, that this is dangerous, taunting him to show himself to be brave in her presence, is a trope that does not well for Jon€rys: The woman taunts the man to do something dangerous for her, and shows, that she does not care for him, because she values him brave, doing everything for her etc. rather than just wanting him to stay alive. It is also a trope that is often used in love triangles to show who really cares for the guy.

Da€nerys was satisfied when the Winterfell populace was frightened of the dragons, he knows she is dangerous and maybe he tries to believe his own lies and makes it convincing so Sansa does not risk herself? He seems so focussed on the fight against the WW that he does not see that everything else like where does the food come from, is important as well. He looks like a desperate man to me. I wish, Lord Glover would have written, that he did not want his men near dragons...

I really, really miss clever BookJon though. If this is the real Jon Snow, I don’t know him. He seems to be even dumber than last season.

As for the Arya scene. I think he could not reconcile the woman he saw with the little girl and he tried to rebond with childhood memories, and Needle was that as well as Jon and Arya making fun of Sansa. I am so glad, that Arya gave him a peace of her mind. I wouldn’t say I “ship” the Stark sisters, but I want them to be a unit and I’m very glad it looks that way.

In addition, I must say, that I don’t even understand Jon complaining about Sansa. She held the North together for him and he makes fun of her? I mean Sansa’s question about the food was totally legit, and though I am sure many D fans think that Da€nerys’ answer “whatever they want” regarding the dragon’s food was “putting Sansa into her place”, it shows that she does not care enough. And we have discussed this before: Starving people die and dead people become wights. So this is important.

As for Sam: Sam and Jon both do not know yet that the Tarlys were burned, just that they were executed.

As for Jon leaning into Da€nerys, I did not see that. I still doubt he is in love, escpecially because they cut before he answered Sansa’s question, especially because D taunted him to risk his life, because Varys commented “nothing lasts”, because when they were alone it was here snapping her fingers “Warm your queen”, rather than him wanting to get close. So there is that.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Anti-Jonerys #Jonsa #Political Jon theory #Got Season 8 spoilers #got spoilers #episode 1 spec

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sxpiosexualx · 7 years ago

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What bothers me a lot about dorito fans claiming her “kween” and “the rightful ruler” is that she never do an actual job as a queen? I never saw her holding a paper and a quill, all she does is ride drogon and yell “dracarys”. Tell me again how is the “queen”. At least Cersei did her job!

Exactly, Cersei may not be the best candidate but she does know a thing or two about ruling, although she’s definitely straying from that after her whole wildfire act. Still, it irks me to see Dany stans say she deserves the Iron Throne. You could argue that it wouldn’t matter considering the past rulers we’ve seen managed to keep the realm considerably stable with the help of their counsel but wouldn’t that further reinforce the notion that Dany does not know a thing about ruling by herself? Even Joffrey faced backlash from the people in S2E06, the only difference is he didn’t have the dragons to intimidate people to think twice. What makes her worthy of the throne then? Her gentle heart? Tommen had a gentle heart, he still managed to be manipulated and lost the one thing that mattered to him, driving him to suicide in the process.

Speaking of Tommen, let’s examine the exchange he had with Tywin:

Tommen: “Wisdom makes a good king.”

Tywin: “Yes, but what is Wisdom? […] A wise king knows what he knows and what he doesn’t. You’re young. A wise young king listens to his counselors and heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards.”

Preceding the exchange in S4E07 above, Tommen explores ideas of holiness, justness, and strength before finally concluding that “Wisdom makes a good king.” So let’s dissect this further:

Could Daenerys be considered as holy? This could be shot down with one quote; “Do you know what kept me standing, through all those years in exile? Faith. Not in any God, not in myths and legends. In myself. In Daenerys Targaryen.” We never see her attempt at praying, and in this speech she gives Jon in S7E03, she mentions that she places faith in herself above the Gods. I’m not sure about you, but that line in particular screams hubris(defined as extreme pride and arrogance shown by a character that ultimately brings about his downfall).

Is Daenerys just? I believe we’ve been expected to see her that way, yes. She did in fact abolish slavery, no? However interestingly enough, if you examine her methods, she rules as an absolute monarch. As a person in such position of power, what you say is law. And we see Daenerys practice this time and time again, burning and crucifying potentially innocent men in Mereen for example. So, I assume Daenerys truly believes what she’s doing is just, but we’re also given the exchange between her and Ser Barristan Selmy in S5E02 to ponder upon, “the mad king gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved, and each time it made him feel powerful and right, until the very end.” Ironically enough, Daenerys insists she’s not her father preceding that exchange, and Ser Barristan goes on to mention that he “murdered sons in front of their fathers,” something we see her do in Eastwatch(S7E05).

Does Daenerys wield strength? Considering she has dragons at her command, yes(arguably). But in what world does having dragons make you the most deserving candidate to sit on the Iron Throne? The Westeros that saw a Targaryen dynasty that was only able to hold their rule because of the fear their dragons commanded? Would that make a satisfying conclusion to the story? A restoration of a dynasty that faced rebellions time and time again? Who dares challenge the authority of the mother of dragons? Observe what Tywin says about Robert Baratheon and his strength in S4E07, “a man who thinks that winning and ruling are the same thing.” This is the main problem with Daenerys, she conquers easily with the help of her army and her dragons, but she has no talent for issuing any reform. And when you conquer a place through war, you shift the power dynamics creating chaos. At least Littlefinger knew that reform must come after chaos, and he plans ahead unlike Daenerys who refuses to even give thought to an heir.

Alright, I hear you, none of that matters as much as long as she’s wise - as Tywin had pointed out, “A wise young king listens to his counselors and heeds their advice until he comes of age. And the wisest kings continue to listen to them long afterwards.” But does she? We see her attempt to in Mereen, but she still resorts to the harsh measures she deems as just, despite it being what her counsel advices her against. We see her do this again with Tyrion in season 7, even questioning his loyalty(and Varys’) as soon as his plans fail. Not only is she not the wisest, she also is impressionable - she listens to Jon over her actual counsel in which path to take, and she favour’s Olenna Tyrell’s advice in being a dragon over what Tyrion tells her, and again, she refuses to reason with Tyrion and decides to burn the Tarlys alive. In other words, she places herself above the Gods, does what she thinks is just, and has the power to silence those who question her authority with her dragons, leaving very little room for her counsel to reason with her. This is why the exchange between Tyrion and Varys in season 7 was so important: these two are already starting to see her for who she really is, instead of the propped up version that was sold to them by her blind supporters.

But who else could be a contender, seeing as no one else(still living)’s arc revolves around their quest for the Iron Throne? Well, the Iron Throne is an ugly thing and I for one hope it no longer exists at the end of the series but since we’re on this topic, who did we just discover is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? Jon.

The show has made a point to withhold that from us up to this point, just as J*nerys was starting to sail. Why? Because he now contends everything she’s worked for, everything she believes she’s entitled to. This is why I believe Daenerys’ arc serves as a foil to Jon’s instead of cinematic parallels meant to establish an otherwise poorly executed romance.

We see both these characters rise to power but there are stark differences in place. Daenerys feels entitled and rises up due to her name(and her dragons which also link in with her lineage), meanwhile Jon finds himself in positions of power because the people elect him, he doesn’t try to claim his right, he has no right. We’re meant to notice how fundamentally different these two are.

Let’s examine Varys’ speech from season 5:

“The Seven Kingdoms need someone stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis. A monarch who could intimidate the High Lords and inspire the people. A ruler loved by millions, with a powerful army, and the right family name.”

Jon is certainly stronger than Tommen, evident in him being referred to as “the greatest swordsman who ever walked,” by Ramsay in S6E09. He is definitely gentler than Stannis, showing Alys Kastark and Ned Umber mercy in S7E01. He’s gotten enough support from the Northern Lords and have inspired them enough to name him King in the North, surely an army would follow too. But what does he lack then? The right family name. And how can he get that? By also achieving what he’s always wanted: to be a Stark. Cue Sansa.

We are reminded that the North is wary of outsiders, especially Targaryens, “A Targaryen cannot be trusted.” - Lord Royce, (S7E02). They are too traumatised by Targaryen rule at this point that the only logical decision to maintain their support and reinforce Jon’s Northern side is if he takes the Stark name via a political marriage with Sansa. Say what you want about eggon tamale, he was raised by Ned Stark, Stark blood flows in him, and he’s lived an observed how to rule in Winterfell via being around Robb all these years. The show may have downplayed his ability to practice politics but he speaks like a true Northerner and it’s made apparent in the books during his exchange with Stannis of just how much he knows of the North and its people.

But even if you’d like to view this purely based on the show, Sansa is the perfect match for him. She has learnt from the best political players - Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger - while Jon is better known as the “military man.” You can see me explore why Sansa would make a better Queen than Daenerys here: https://sxpiosexualx.tumblr.com/post/165837328667/who-would-make-a-better-queen

Say what you want about Jonsa, it makes the most sense. Jon is a good bet as king, but he would not be as nearly as successful without Sansa by his side. This is why the show spent so much time developing their dynamic(even if it wasn’t necessarily romantic though the tropes are heavily suggested and weaved into those scenes), to show us how effective their rule would be if they ruled together. It translates on screen even through the deliberate set design of the hall: Jon and Sansa sit on an equal level with their small table or counsel of Lords, allowing for there to be easy discussion. Unlike the throne we see Daenerys sit on at Dragonstone - a larger than life throne propped up and meant to intimidate those who enter the hall.

Finally, I’ll leave you with a criticism GRRM made on the Lord of the Rings:

“Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?” – (GRRM on Tolkein)

So again, I believe the best bet on who should rule at the end of the series, be it the entire 7 Kingdoms or just the North, would be JonSa. After all, the story did begin with the Starks, and I’d much rather see a restoration of a house who’s downfall was brought upon being honourable, than the restoration of a dynasty who’s demise was largely brought upon their own doing.

Thank you for the ask anon! x

#anti-daenerys #anti-targaryen #anti d&d #jonsa #jon x sansa #jonsa meta #anti-jonerys

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ylizam · 4 years ago

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dear creator: femslashex 2k20 edition

Hi, Hello, Hey. First of all–thank you! This is my standard you offered to write one of my fandoms, so thank you for being awesome opening spiel, full of generals likes and dislikes, I’m sure you know the drill. I’ll make sure the fandom specific stuff is up by the time assignments go out. (That said, if you already have an idea about how you want to write about the fandom/pairing we match on—wow, I’m jealous! tell me your secrets!—just skip over the fandom stuff and go forth with your bad self.)

Things I like include, but are in no way limited to: fun with POV, fun with linear vs. non-linear storytelling, fun with tone, fun with writing. I really dig character studies, stories that really get into what makes a character tick (and something porny that can get at that is wonderful too), and I like relationships that are hard and prickly and worth fighting for. I like happy endings that don’t feel tacked on or forced. I like doubt, and hope, and theology; I like actors, and directors, and I like the random deity. I like fairy tales. I like (love) romance tropes. Forced to share a bed, marriages of convenience, fake dating, friends-to-lovers, idiots-to-lovers, enemies-to-lovers: it’s all like unto catnip. I like interesting turns of phrase, I like the perfect line, I like any story written just for me. If you have any questions about my taste (or lack thereof), feel free to ask @summervillen who probably knows my fannish tastes better than I do.

DNWs: noncon, necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, animal harm or death, child harm or death, pregnancy fic, A/B/O. Things that I would prefer you not include—especially gratuitously; there are obviously ways to engage with problematic actions/thoughts/etc. in fiction, but there’s such a fine line there—are as follows: non-character driven racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, anti-semitism, etc. etc. etc. I’d prefer no high school AUs. I also have a pretty big embarrassment squick. And while I'm mostly interested in these characters in the worlds in which we meet them, if you really have an AU (non high school division) you want to write I'm there. Just, you know, grounded in the characters and their relationships and all that fun stuff. That's basically it.

Babylon 5 Delenn/Susan Ivanova I just ship them post-canon so hard. Later in life chances at love are sort of a thing of mine, and add to that two of my favorite characters ever, well, it’s like this pairing is made for me. That said, if you can find a way to write them during canon (maybe John doesn’t return from Z'ha'dum, maybe Delenn and John just never get together at all, maybe you can think of something I can’t) I’d love that too. Delenn/Shaal Mayan I’d love a story about them that’s really Minbari–that understands that neither of them is human. Something set when they were young and just figuring themselves out (and first love is rarely forever but it feels like it must be) or something set when Mayan visits Babylon 5 in season one or, heck, something set after the series ends. (I have a thing for writing on skin, so if you can find a way to fit that in more power to you.)

Last Tango in Halifax Gillian Greenwood/Caroline McKenzie-Dawson Oh gosh I have so many feelings about Gillian and Caroline and their relationship. How it’s grown, changed, and now they’re at a point where they see each other all the time and talk about basically everything and it’s all so beautiful. And, I mean, come on, they both have the best chemistry with the other; it’s just a fact. So what if they get drunk and kiss (or shag or something in between)? Or just deal with things like adults (I’m sure you could convince me that’s possible)? (She wasn’t part of the tagset, but I also liked what little we saw of Olga, both how she interacted with Caroline and how she befriended Gillian when they both showed up late to the play, so if you want to go the threesome route–whether it’s a V or a triad or whatever confusing mess of emotions you prefer–I’m there.) (P.S. I haven’t seen the most recent season, but I’m spoiled and have seen all the gifs and screencaps so include or don’t as you see fit.)

Lucifer Linda Martin/Mazikeen

Their relationship on the show is a thing of delight and wonder, so basically I want that but also MORE. Maze fighting people to protect Linda! Linda, well, trying to fight people but mostly realizing that Maze loves it and is good at it so. Maze panicking again about Linda eventually dying, but also MORE SO because now they’ve been fucking and also having weird candlelight dinners and um is this romantic this might be. (Whether Amenadiel is involved (romantically with either or both, as an active parent but no longer romantically, etc.) or off doing something else stage left and never mentioned is up to you, but please no bashing, killing off somehow, etc.) Feel free to include hijinks with the rest of the gang, but I’d prefer no focus on any police work.

The Old Guard (Movie) Andy/Quynh

Note: I haven’t read the comics, so this is strictly a movie request (I know they’re separate fandoms and listed thusly, but I just wanted to be clear). I’d love anything about them, in all honesty. Something in the past: a first time (they kissed, they said “I love you,” they refused to say “I love you,” they had sex, etc.), a fifth time, a mission gone wrong. Or something in the present/future: angst and fractured trust and fighting on opposite sides until they’re suddenly not. All too mortal Andy. Immortal Quynh. The options are basically endless. I also love everyone on the team, so feel free to include them however you see fit.

Star Trek: Classic Timeline

Beverly Crusher/Laris

So I came out of Picard with an undying devotion to Laris and a burning curiosity about what the heck Bev is up to these days. So tell me more about both of them. Is there’s a longstanding affair, often at a distance? Did they start out prickly and reserved, wary? How are Jean-Luc and Zhaban involved? (I am happy with whatever you decide on the Jean-Luc and Zhaban front, other than gratuitous death or bashing of either. Feel free to have them off having their own adventures and don’t mention them if you prefer not to involve them.) Is Beverly’s French as terrible as Jean-Luc’s?

Kimara Cretak/Kira Nerys

Feel free to have Kimara escape/live/etc. I’d especially love something that recognizes that neither of them is human; play around with what we know of their cultures, about how those cultures might clash or unexpectedly mesh, how that can affect a relationship both positively and negatively. I’m always interested in Nerys’s faith and religious beliefs, and how that interacts with Romulan culture would be very much something I enjoy.

K'Ehlyer/Deanna Troi

K’Ehlyer deserved better, and who is better than Deanna? I posit no one. This is another pairing where I’d love something about the fact that they’re not fully human and the implications thereof. (Feel free to include Alexander or not, as you choose. Ditto Thaddeus and Kestra. I’d prefer they not be a focal point though.) Whether you set it during TNG or Picard or in between, I’ll be equally happy (or an alternate version of reality works too! those are just the time references I can think of right now!). (Please note that I very much also ship Deanna and Will, so please, please, please don’t bash him or kill him off for no reason or have Deanna cheating on him or whatever. I’d much rather you don’t mention him at all if you don’t want him in the fic.)

The Untamed Jiang Yanli/Wen Qing

Is part of this my desire to have two of my favorite characters pushed together? Yes. Is it also part of my desire to have them actually live? Absolutely. (Which is to say: I’d love a “Jiang Yanli and Wen Qing live” AU here. Or at least live longer than they make it in canon?) I’d also be fine with modern AUs here, but I’d prefer cultivation be in there somewhere even if it’s set in the present (or the 1980s or basically any time period). Maybe there’s a political partnership of convenience situation! Maybe something shifts in canon and Jiang Yanli helps the Qishan Wens out and things happen and trust grows and they fall in love! Maybe they have a secret fling! Honestly, it’s all good.

#femslashex #femslash exchange #dear author letter #there will be more later #once i manage to write up the fandom specific parts #long post #(or it will be or it is idk)#the old guard #the untamed #lucifer #last tango in oh noooo #last tango in halifax #star trek: the next generation #star trek: picard #star trek: ds9 #stars trek #babylon 5

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ylizam · 5 years ago

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femslash exchange creator letter [currently a placeholder, soon to be real]

Hi, Hello, Hey. First of all–thank you! This is my standard you offered to write one of my fandoms, so you’re obviously a perfect paragon of humanity and all that jazz opening spiel, full of generals likes and dislikes, I’m sure you know the drill. I’ll make sure the fandom specific stuff is up by the time assignments go out. (That said, if you already have an idea about how you want to write about the fandom we match on—wow, I’m jealous! tell me your secrets!—just skip over the fandom stuff and go forth with your bad self.)

Things that I would prefer you not include—especially gratuitously; there are obviously ways to engage with problematic actions/thoughts/etc. in fiction, but there’s such a fine line there—are as follows: noncon, necrophilia, pedophilia, incest, non-character driven racism/sexism/[all]isms. I also have a pretty big embarrassment squick. A/B/O doesn’t do anything for me. And I’m not really interested in AUs for any of these fandoms: canon divergence is fine, but not-related-to-canon alternate universes really aren’t my preference here.

ER Jeanie Boulet/Kerry Weaver Elizabeth Corday/Kerry Weaver

Oh, the women of ER, how I love them. While I don’t want a never a medical professional AU, I’m fine with playing loose with canon events for these. (That said, I love that Jeanie can be HIV+ and fall in love, have sex, be happy, so while you don’t have to go deep on that I’d rather you didn’t change it.) I love the idea of post-series Jeanie/Kerry, but would also love something that takes place earlier (does Kerry realizing she’s attracted to Jeanie make her admit she’s a lesbian? do arguments over staffing lead to heated makeouts in the break room?). As for Elizabeth/Kerry, just think of all the sparks. All. Of. Them. I’m not a huge Mark fan, so I’d rather he not be front and center, but I’m fine with you including him as part of Elizabeth’s past if you want to go that route. I’m also fine with ignore canon relationships all together. Go wild, basically.

Doctor Who Donna Noble/Thirteenth Doctor Donna Noble/River Song

Donna. Deserved. Better. Which is to say: ignore what happened to her, fix what happened to her, however you want to go about it, but make it better. I mean, imagine a world where Donna just shows up and has fun times with whatever Doctor is Doctoring at the time, and when it’s Thirteen they have to pretend to be married for some reason or other and, oh, kissing feels good! Or maybe River meets her during one of those times, and they spend so much time rolling their eyes about the Doctor that they end up in bed! (Or, um, feel free to go a threesome route with Thirteen, Donna, and River. If you want.) I just really do not want a story that is all about how much Donna loses or that ends with her without her memories again or any of that—if you fix it but keep what happened as story-canon, go ahead and have her deal with the fallout if if you want, but I can’t really cope with that being the (eventual or in-story) ending.

Star Trek: Classic Timeline Beverly Crusher/Vash Kimara Cretak/Kira Nerys

First of all, I don’t know book canon, so include it, don’t include, whatever floats your proverbial boat. Second of all, I am more than happy with “this character lives” stories here. Which is to say, feel free to have Cretak escape/live/etc. Feel free to ignore anything that happens to Bev or Vash or Nerys. I basically think there should be reams and reams of fic about both of these pairings, and yet there is not. For Kira/Cretak I’d especially love something that recognizes that neither of them is human; play around with what we know of their cultures, about how those cultures might clash or unexpectedly mesh, how that can affect a relationship both positively and negatively. And just have fun with Beverly and Vash (and feel free to bring Picard in if you want, either as a friend or a third romantic partner or whatever). And of course I love the crews of the Enterprise and Deep Space Nine, so their reactions and relationships with everyone involved are more than welcome additions (although, again, not necessary).

Game of Thrones Brienne of Tarth/Sansa Stark

Look, the show did everyone dirty. The show did their relationship dirty. The show did writing dirty. Feel free to fix things, either by using the canon ending as a jumping board—maybe it turns out that an all-seeing-knowing-etc. being doesn’t make for a good king and revolt happens! maybe Bran and Sansa meet up for some sort of political thing or another and Brienne’s there as Lord Commander and things happen!—or by going AU (in the for want of a sense, not the everyone’s in space sense). Oh, and this is definitely a pairing where I would dig service kink if you are interested in writing such a thing. Look, it’s right there.

This is also the only pairing I requested a vid for; I’d love anything that builds on their relationship, maybe plays around with service and fealty and honor and the way different women fight. (I’m sorry; my ability to write about vidding is limited, but know that I’d love anything. I love all sorts of music. I love all sorts of vids.)

#femslashex #dear author letter #long post #(i used a read more #which as we all know is less than helpful in places)#babylon 5 #star trek: ds9 #star trek: the next generation #er #game of thrones #doctor who

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fedonciadale · 6 years ago

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Dear Fedonciadale, I think they addressed the marriage issue in s7. Daenerys said "he is too little for me", which means "he's bastardborn". They twisted it immediately, making it about height and Tyrion's sensitivity, but that was it (it's so obvious really). Don't you think this interpretation would make a sharp contrast when Sansa comes to confirm again that Jon is a Stark in s8? I'd really like your opinion on this. I love your blog, btw. It's a while I'm following it. Be well always!

Dear nonny,

I absolutely forgot about that! Iirc that was when Missandei and Da€nerys had what D&D think is a chat between women (meaning they were talking about men)? I must admit that I haven't yet rewatched season 7... I just can't bring myself to do that. I've only rewatched the field of fire 2.0., because this was really good.

At the time I watched I understood the 'he is too little' comment as one of the jokes D&D like to make about Kit, just like the 'little pecker' by Tormund in season 6. Anyway it was no serious talk about a marriage alliance, not spelled out, but rather if Da€nerys would like Jon in bed? A serious discussion would have had to involve the discussion of the politics.

I think it is interesting that Da€nerys words' might be about Jon's official bastard status. I'm not sure if her opinion on bastards is ever given in the books. But now you said it this might be what prevents a Jon€rys marriage in the books, if they meet at a time when Jon still thinks he is Ned's bastard - on this the books will have the same scenario, I'm sure. I think in the show they didn't want to make it too obvious - they have toned down how awkward Jon's situation on Dragonstone really is - but in the books the Westerosi councillors of Da€nerys might argue against a marriage with a bastard.

If you go by the books Da€nerys was very dismissive of her suitor Quentyn Martell (I really felt for the poor guy) and since she thinks she has the upper hand in regard to her suitors she always tends to look down her nose. In the show she did this with Hizdahr and in the books she was openly disdainful about the whole Mereenese culture (the traditional headwear were the 'floppy ears').

If you think about the tropes involved it is also very interesting : the quest for a bride is a very common tale and with Quentyn it plays to all the tropes and twists them. The bride dismisses the suitor as unfitting and the usual arc would then be that she sets him a seemingly insurmountable task that he then fulfills. Quentyn thinks this is the pattern he has to follow only he fails in taming the dragons and dies - not being worthy of the bride after all.

Now Jon meeting Da€nerys will look to D and probably to the reader as another bride quest. And bookwise I think it is possible that she sets him an 'impossible task' as well - resulting in the book version of the Wight hunt. You know, in the books Jon has already captured some Wights but who knows if Alliser Thorne and the other mutineers will be clever enough to keep them...

The only hindrance to the fulfillment of the bride quest is that for Jon it is not his real aim. Like Aragorn on the paths of the dead which was a side quest on his way to save Gondor, Jon is not after the bride but wants the dragons and the army to save the North. That for him the bride quest is not his top priority is one of the things that will be a hindrance to Jon€rys. For Jon, D is not top priority.

I do hope that Jon will get some uplifting and validation in season 8 from his Stark cousins. He will need it after the parentage reveal. But at first he might get some backlash about his decision to bend the knee (or not). If we can deduce anything from the short clip we saw his first meeting with Sansa will not lack in warmth, but I've always suspected that the reunion with Arya will not go as well. GRRM has a habit of giving his characters and his readers what they want, but in a twisted way. I'm certain though that we will hear 'you are a Stark' from several people in season 8.

Thanks very much for the compliment! I love my anons challenging my opinions and thinking about possible scenarios. Stay well as well! Have a happy Christmas!

And thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #jonsa #anti-daenerys #Anti-Jonerys #bride quest as a trope #why no marriage discussion in season 7 #Jon Snow is a Stark

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fedonciadale · 6 years ago

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Hi! Since you're answering some asks re: original outline I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the parentage reveal might turn out in the books. Do you think it's a possibility that Jon would be informed before meeting D-ny, they fall for each other but Jon's conflicted because they're related? There would be no "relief" aspect, but I think it somewhat makes use of the whole tormented romance from the original outline. I don't buy it, but I'm too wary of D&D and their accidental incest subplot.

Dear nonny,

if you look at how the topos of 'secret parentage' works in fiction it either is there to produce drama or (comic) relief. The impact of knowing about being related (or not) is much greater if the event that can't be undone has already happened.

I mean that the 'accidental incest' or the murder of a relative (looking at you Oedipus) must happen before the hero learns about his parentage.

I always thought that accidental incest with Da€nerys was part of Jon's storyline. Season 6 had me hopeful briefly that it might not happen after all, but I think that it will happen in the books as well.

And I think that GRRM 's twist with the trope is that he will go for all possible outcomes of a secret parentage that is: accidental incest, conflict within the closest family that the hero didn't know about and last not least that the secret parentage will make it possible for the hero to marry his love interest.

So, my guess is that the parentage reveal will happen in the books after accidental incest, will be the catalyst for the conflict between nephew and aunt (Da€nerys will be pissed that Jon has the better claim, he may protest all he wants that he doesn't want the Throne) and will be enabling a Stark / Snow marriage (that will probably save Jon's ass).

Imho, to add incest angst if Jon and Da€nerys are just there to defeat the WW is superfluous... And this would be just about: Well let's torture the heroes some more. Because letting them die is not enough....

There is plenty of pain and sorrow in the books for the Starks but it is never superfluous. It always serves the story line.

To use all the tropes of secret parentage instead would bring forward the story line and heighten the aspect of the 'human heart in conflict with itself'.

The fact about the tormented romance of the original outline is that it creates tension that is solved with the reveal.

I've said it several times on this blog and elsewhere. Jon€rys works better without RLJ. For Jon€rys either happily ever after or as heroes dying to save the world, Jon could just be Ned's bastard and nothing would change. RLJ would just add torture to the main characters if they are destined to die. For Jon€rys 'Happily ever after on the Throne' it would add a very cringy idea about the superiority of Targ blood which is imho against anything the author has as a moral compass in his books (GRRM is after all not a nihilist and he is very much against hybris) and should actually make alarm bells ring off in any reader. Blood superiority is not something we should root for nor is it something we should even want to root for.

So, the only way how RLJ is plot relevant is if the reveal leads to a fallout between Jon and Da€nerys on the one hand and possibly to a solution of the messed up succession in the Stark family on the other.

And honestly it is feasible that RLJ, a major secret of the series, that has been teased forever in show and books, that was subject of two finales would just be absolutely irrelevant to the plot?

Sry not sry : that would be such a huge failure in the set up of the writing that actually words would fail me for such a mega incompetence.

The other idea though that the secret parentage heightens the drama, hurries the conflict and leads to a solution at the same time, that is a brilliant play with the tropes of secret parentage. That would be a masterstroke of subverting and strengthening the tropes at the same time.

Since I don't think that GRRM 's writing is subpar (and it is after all his story) I fully expect RLJ to be plot relevant. That means that I honestly can't see the scenario in the books where Jon knows about RLJ when he meets Da€nerys. In this regard the show stayed true to the original intent I'm sure.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #jonsa #jon x sansa #anti-daenerys #anti-jonerys #original outline #secret parentage #RLJ reveal #must be plot relevant

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fedonciadale · 7 years ago

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If the undercover lover theory is ture than what is the point of Jon saying D@ny has a good heart? Why would he lie when it is only him and Davos? Also why would Davos say to Jon I saw you staring at her good heart? Jon is clearly at least attracted to D@ny and at one point actually thought she has a good heart, that is enough for me to lose faith in Jon - yes I hate D@ny and everything she stands for that much. I wish Sansa would end up with someone else other than Jon, he does not deserve her.

Dear nonny, the thing about that conversation is, that there is a Watsonian and Doylist perspective on to interprete the scene. From a Watsonian perspective Jon is asked about Dany by Davos and he doesn't even know her that well at this point, certainly not enough to really know if she has a good heart. From his perspective she holds him detained on Dragonstone (if not in a cell), but she also allowed him to mine the dragonglass. So, if you look at what he knows about her is somewhat contradictory. Now, why does he answer like that? My explanation is the following: To me he looked quite distracted in this scene as if his mind were elsewhere and I would suggest that when asked about Da€nerys he answers with the first thing that comes to his mind and not his genuine opinion. Now what first comes to his mind is what he has been told repeatedly about Da€nerys by her people.... That she has a good heart. As for Davos : from a Watsonian perspective, what does he want? He is Jon's Hand and he has to find a solution for the awkward situation they are in. As a Hand it is his duty to point out possible solutions and I would argue that he tries to find out here what Jon's opinion would be on a marriage solution... You know the kind of obvious solution pre-parentage reveal that somehow didn't cross anybody's mind safe Littlefinger's for the whole season?I had the impression that this flippant and very ooc remark by Davos was in fact his attempt to do what a good hand does: brokering an advantageous marriage for his young unmarried king. And Jon told him there was no time for that and Davos never mentioned it again. Now as dialogue goes this could have been written more smoothly... if the Watsonian perspective would be the only one. And this is where I think the Doylist reason comes into the fold. The writers have written all Jon€rys scenes as ambiguous imho. The line by Davos is a classic 'tell, not show'. We have never seen that Jon was staring at Da€nerys least of all her boobs. (And would it not have been easy to show that at least once?). Therefore the audience needs a hint by one of the characters that something is going on, giving at the same time the impression that we as the audience should have noticed that something is going on.... TBH it reminds me of 'Much Ado about nothing' where Benedict and Beatrice are set up as a couple by everybody telling them respectively how much in love they are... Only in GoT I doubt this will have a similar happy ending. The pattern we are accustomed to see, the romantic trope, is two people pushed to come together by their friends. And since we know this trope, this is what the casual viewers see. So, from a Doylist perspective the scene with Davos and Jon tells the audience that there should be a love story, and this should make us suspicious in a season where at least the plot in Winterfell was about subverting the audience's expectation.I freely admit that I think it could have been done better, but at least the scenes are that ambiguous that you could look back at these scenes after a plot twist and see that they can be interpreted in different ways. So, to return to a Watsonian perspective, I don't think Jon said all that because he really thinks that Da€nerys has a good heart. He said the first thing that came to his mind which was not his opinion but what he had heard multiple times. Even though he doesn't know everything about Da€nerys he knows enough to doubt her motives, which is why he later asks Missandei about her. Tbh, what makes me quite sure that we won't have a Targ marriage next season is the fact that the writers failed to push a marriage alliance that would make sense pre-parentage reveal but not afterwards. If Jon and Da€nerys are destined to be together why not let them marry at a time when it makes sense and be done with it?If everything plays out, as I think it will, you will have no reason to doubt that Jon and Sansa are best suited for each other. And we don't need some random Northern young Lord, nor will we need Podrick or Gendry to make her happy. Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #jonsa #Anti-Jonerys #She has a good heart #Davos as hand #why does nobody suggest a marriage alliance?

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fedonciadale · 7 years ago

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I don’t see how Sansa is Love and Dany is Duty? I thought sense Jon is/was KiTN his duty is to the North. So marrying Sansa would be duty right? Since she is the key to the North. P. S I’m not a jonerys fan. I just want to know why?

Dear nonny,

Jon’s duty is to protect the North as is underlined by his ‘oath of allegiance’ in episode 2 of season 7. And this has been established as his primary goal in his arc with the wildlings and Ygritte when he chose this duty over his love for Ygritte.

He wants to protect the North from the WW and for this reason he leaves his home to search for an alliance at Dragonstone. This is his true quest. Jon’s duty to the North, as he understands it, is not to stay king. He doesn’t want to be king, but if this is what it takes to unite the North in the important fight, this is what he does. Marriage to Sansa as the key to the North would only be duty, if it was Jon’s duty to stay king. That’s not where he sees his duty. So, if he doesn’t want to stay king, he could just let Sansa take over, become the military commander in the fight against the WW and let it lie. That does not mean that a Jonsa marriage would not be political. It would be very much political.

But Sansa who always feared that she would never marry for love only for her claim, will actually marry someone who is not after her claim. But it will look like Jon is after her claim. But only, if you don’t know him and think that he is after the crown. Jon and Sansa trust each other and he wouldn’t mind his Stark cousins running Winterfell. So in a Jonsa marriage it is quite possible that political need and love will go hand in hand. But political necessity is not the same as duty. And I would argue that Jon’s story arc would come to a satisfying conclusion if for him, honour and love would be achievable at the same time.

The search for Da€nerys and her dragons could be the literal trope of a ‘quest for a bride’, and it will be twisted. As @shinynewrevulsions has argued here (x), Jon’s quest is foreshadowed by Quentyn Martell’s in the books, and that means that Da€nerys sees/will see Jon’s search for an alliance as a ‘quest for a bride’, but this is not what it will be to Jon.

For Jon it is a sidequest and not a real quest because Jon’s real purpose as was established in season 1 is to deal with the threat of the Undead and the WW. He thinks that for this he needs dragons, like he wished for in ASOS, when the wildlings attacked the wall.

We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they should be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three. (ASOS, Jon VIII)

Imagine Aragorn when he used the paths of the Dead in LotR. He needed the army of the dead to release the besieged Minas Tirith, but it was a sidequest (and that is actually why he succeeded, because others before him had failed, when they were just after the glory). It is of course more clear-cut in Tolkien, because in Tolkien’s world, the side quest usually means surviving some horror or standing up to some horror, but that does not change the setup that the path of duty can lead on a sidetrack that enables the hero to reach his real goal.

So, Jon’s looking for an alliance is motivated by duty. That does not rule out, that love could come alongside this sidetrack, but I doubt it. Da€nerys has been set up as the bride everybody’s after and she has been repeatedly warned about all the people who only want her dragons and not her. She is very suspicious about that in the books, but I think once she comes to Westeros in the books she will think that all the foretold treasons are beyond her and will be more trusting. And she will think that Jon is on a ‘bride quest’ when he is not. She’ll be blind to the fact, that his real quest is something else. For Jon, she’s means to an aim, and that is actually the usual hero’s story. He must not be diverted by the side quests.

Thanks to @shinynewrevulsions! I chatted with them and we had numerous ideas about the ‘bride quest’.

I hope that this answered your question!

#anon ask #Jonsa #Anti-Jonerys #Jon's quest #Bride quest as a literal trope #quentyn martell #love and duty #Da€nerys' arc

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fedonciadale · 7 years ago

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some j/d shippers logic: j having sexual relationship with d is okay because they didn't know and they were not raised together but j/s is not because they were raised together... if we use this logic in Oedipus's story the him banging Jocasta would be okay because they didn't know they are related and she didn't raise him...

Dear nonny,

you know I always held to the belief, that in-world neither the argument of Jonsa shippers ‘But they are aunt and nephew‘ against Jon€rys, nor the argument of Jon€rys against Jonsa ‘but they were raised as siblings’ is valid.

It is pretty clear that in regard to marriage within the closest family aunt-nephew is not the worst that ever happened in the Targ family. Aunt-nephew are third degree related according to Roman counting, and the Targs have married closer. But it would only work within the Targ tradition. We don’t have marriages of relatives in third degree in the other families. We have cousin marriages (which is fourth degree) and we have uncle-halfniece (Jonnel One-eye and Sansa Stark in the Stark family tree) - and this is also fourth degree according to Roman counting. So, it is pretty obvious that third degree is out of bounds for everyone else, but not the Targs. There are mentions of uncle-niece planned marriages. Euron threatens Asha/Yara with it and Alys Karstark flees a marriage with her uncle (who is in reality her cousin), but we don’t see them coming true. So, a Jon-Da€nerys marriage would be possible if they fully embrace their Targness and the exclusivity that comes with the inbred marriages. An aunt-nephew marriage would only be possible if they both accept this Targaryen tradition. As normal great lords they can’t marry. And this is where the catch is: A lot of the problems of the later Targs came because they hadn’t mingled in marriage with the great houses.

So a Jon€rys marriage would imho have severe political repercussions. If Jon - after parentage reveal - would want to marry Da€nerys everbody would know that ‘they are just the same’. Jon could not bring the North into a marriage alliance with D because the minute his real parentage is known, he loses all claim to the North, be it as king or as warden, as long as there are children by Eddard Stark available. So politically a Jon€rys marriage would be suicidal, but if they are in love, they could still try to go through with it. Da€nerys has dragons after all, just like Aegon. But again, this would mean, we would go full circle to Aegon, and a Targ restoration. I don’t believe that the story goes that way, because the political problems with the Targness have been well established in the series and it would be a waste of our time, if all these expositions came to nothing. As for Jon keeping his parentage secret: This could of course happen, but what a waste for this Chekov’s gun to hang around for seven seasons and then vanishing unused… So, although in-world a Jon€rys marriage is possible, it doesn’t make sense in-world politically not because of the incest and for Doylist reasons - I’ll adress that later.

As for Jonsa and them being raised as siblings. In-world this is neither a hindrance for a sexual relation (look at Jaime-Cersei), nor an infatuation (look at Petyr-Catelyn) nor a marriage (look at Tywin- Joanna and at Theon’s idea that he might have married Sansa). Even in our modern world it would not be a hindrance. Adoptive siblings could marry for example, because they are not related, children growing up in one household can marry. They rarely do, because they usually don’t fall in love, but usually is not the same as always.

Now, after this I finally come to your question. The story of Oedipus is the story of accidental incest, and of course Oedipus is not the only example of accidental incest. And the thing about this literal trope is that it is usually punished severely… And tbh, this is what bugs me about Jon€rys shippers saying that the Jon/D incest does not count because they don’t know they are related and were not raised together. If we learn anything from literal tropes it should at least alert us to the fact that Jon€rys might not have a happy ending. So, the literal trope is against them, and for that it is not important that the incest is only incest for the other families and not for the Targs in-world. Because in-world the Targ incest has been shown as a huge problem!

It is just like GRRM to throw shade on this literal trope: You know, if Jon and Da€nerys were siblings we could be sure that there will be a punishment. But since they are just at the edge with third degree, we can’t be entirely sure... It has been argued that genetically Jon and Da€nerys are closer to being siblings, but people in Westeros don’t know about genetics, although the Targ madness has been identified as a special family problem.

For Jonsa on the other hand the literal trope is in their favour. The secret parentage of the hero ensures that he is socially or in Jon’s and Sansa’s case in regard to their relatedness eligible as a husband. The secret parentage enables the happy ending. The secret parentage means that the boy can marry the girl next door who was the right one for him the whole time. I made a post about the function of secret parentage (x).

So if you have Jon€rys as endgame you would have the story coming back to the beginning with Aegon and his dragons and all without a change. If you have Jonsa as endgame, you have the clever use of all kind of literal tropes that are connected to a single plot twist. GRRM would at the same time undercut the tropes and subvert them and re-establish them. I know what I prefer storywise and I think Jon€rys shippers are arguing so hard because they know that the literal trope is against them, deep down they know it, because these tropes have been with us humans for a very long time.

Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Anti-Jonerys #This was tagged anti with a hyphen and should not show up on your J0nerys dash if you search for the 'tag' and not just the 'word'#Jonsa #Literal tropes #Accidental incest #Secret parentage #parentage reveal #comparison with other ships #Arguments against the ship #hypocrisy

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fedonciadale · 7 years ago

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one thing that worries me about jonsa, is that with both brandon and ned, they did not want to marry catelyn, brandon wanted barbrey dustin and ned wanted ashara, it is true that later on he learned to love catelyn, but I am afraid that jon marry sansa only by name and claim, while he loves or likes another person such as daenerys, val or even arya, I think my biggest fear is that what sansa said is true and that nobody ever marries her love. :(

Dear nonny, I'm sure that there will be some angst involved, because Sansa might at one time think, that Jon marries her for her claim, but it will be sorted out. And bookwise Sansa was prepared to marry for duty like her mother and work for mutual love and respect in a marriage (with Willas). So, she might be a bit sad about a marriage for duty, but she would not be against it. But I don't think that will be the case. As for the previous generation : I don't think Brandon wanted Barbrey Dustin as a wife. If that would have been the case he could have talked with his father. I had the impression that Brandon was not against some dalliances that were offered to him. Father Dustin told Barbrey try for it, because he wanted a Stark in his family. Brandon seems to have been guided by his emotions and was the hot-headed one. I don't think he was a womanizer like Robert was, but he as the heir to a great lordship was at least a bit careless. He made the stupid move to ride to King's Landing and demand Lyanna after all. Ned would have been too cautious to do that I think. As for Ned loving Ashara Dayne, we will probably never know. I do think he did, if only because the way he forbid talking about Ashara as a possibility for Jon's mother. To me that looks a little bit like a bad conscience. After Ned killed her brother, Ashara and Ned had no chance, and Ned probably resigned himself to the fact. But that didn't prevent him trying his best with Cat. And despite his trauma from the rebellion and all his and her scars they were happy. So I would not outright say that this scenario would be bad for Jon and Sansa.But as much as they mirror Ned and Cat, I don't believe that they will be the same in that regard. You mention three women who might be potential love interests of Jon. Let's start with the easiest : Val. I think if Val had been meant as the love of Jon's life she would have been included into the show. Additionally, Jon rejected her, when Stannis offered her, even when Winterfell was added to the offer. Jon did not want Val because he did not want to abolish the Old Gods and because 'Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa'. We can rule out Val.As for Da€nerys: In the books their relationship has been foreshadowed as being one-sided and in the show they took care to write 'doomed' all over it. Also Jon will be the treason for love. I doubt that he loves her. I'm not sure about the books, Jon might develop a fascination with her, like he has with Val, but it won't be love, although I am quite sure, that bookwise 'accidental incest' is destined to be in Jon's storyline as one of the literary tropes connected to a secret parentage.As for Arya: there can be no doubt that Jon loves her and imho Arya's agreement to a marriage of Jon and Sansa (if she will be present to discuss this) is crucial, more so than Bran's. But I don't think that Arya would be a romantically coded hindrance. I have several reasons for that. The first would be that for the show audience that would come out of the blue. We haven't seen Jon and Arya constantly thinking about each other (and it would have been possible to do that - e.g. by always repeating the dialogue they had with a voice-over, by finding a flash-back image other than needle and additionally to needle with its connection to Ned and Syrio). I would also secondly argue that Arya is not meant as a romantic interest in the books. Jon/Arya mirror Ned/Lyanna, and the fact that Jon in the books forsakes his vows to the Night's Watch to save his 'sister' - in reality fArya - from her marriage to Ramsay is Ned/Lyanna/Rhaegar again. Jon constantly thinking about Arya also mirrors Ned. Ned thinks about Lyanna much more than about Cat, and yet when he thinks about Cat it is meaningful and full of love. So even the thought patterns of Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa align with Ned/Lyanna and Ned/Cat.Now GRRM's book proposal that was leaked had Jon /Arya as endgame, but I would take this with a grain of salt. This - and this is my third argument - is not GRRM's own summary that was found in his desk.. It was written with the intention to persuade the publisher to fund him and therefore it is an unreliable source! Apart from that, it is pretty obvious that GRRM has deviated from the original outline in several important and game changing ways.'No one will marry me for love ' or at least not for love alone might be true if Jon /Sansa will be a political match. But even if Jon marries Sansa not for love, but for politics to salvage the North, Westeros, humanity, whatever, I'm sure that he will neither marry Sansa despite his love for another nor without any love for her. I think he will be deeply and confusingly in love the moment he marries her. Thanks for the ask!

#anon ask #Jonsa #political marriage #will there be love?#no one will marry me for love #comparison to other ships

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