#I looked through Tim Sale's batman stuff and there's NONE of this

[bombusbombus]

Tim Sale draws clothes like he's referencing ONLY languishing 1800s heartthrobs. He really gave us the sexiest, most dapper Clark Kent fashion. The sleeves. The waist. The silhouette. It's delectable.

[thattimdrakeguy]

I couldn’t finish Batman and Robin 2009. It was just... mentally exhausting and I stopped shortly after Bat Dick put fake Bruce in the Lazarus pit. Based on his appearances in Teen Titans, Bruce Wayne: Road Home, as well as his big fan base, I assumed Damian’s character development was executed nicely in his own series. But then again in Gates of Gotham (literally read it just for Cass) he’s impulsive, arrogant and rude to Cass both to her face and behind her back-even after she saved his life 1

Don’t get me started on the sexist things he’s said to Steph. I want to like Damian, but writers don’t make it easy. I got into comics because of batfam fanfics and he was a fave of mine. Dude was extra violent and displayed borderline sociopathic tendencies in his first appearances, cool beans. There’s a lot they can do with a character like that. I just felt like his bad behaviour was never properly dealt with before B&R, and I couldn’t muster the energy to see him through his own series. 2/2

IMO, Damian felt like a Gary Stu at times.

I don’t know if that last one was from the same person or not, but I just got the feeling it is, and if it’s not, then well it blends well enough and don’t feel the need to answer it separately.

Like all I can really say is that I don’t really like Damian. A lot of people confuse that for me thinking he’s an evil monster. I imagine cause I have a Tim icon and other Tims do rage on about that every now and again. As well as just plain taking things I say the wrong way (though I have probably said things in the moment I imagine). But I just plain don’t really like his writing, and if I can’t really read a comic he’s in that I actually like. Idk, I just find it weird to say I like him, when all I really like is what he could be. I don’t feel like that really equals me liking him, cause when I think about it, I kinda realized that meant the opposite, and didn’t wanna project the wrong idea.

But I wanna say this about Damian. He is insanely inconsistent as a personality and character. To this very day. So, as I do with every character, I start from the beginning, figure out what was meant to be by the writers that helped develop them, and figure out what’s in-character and out of character from there. I just feel like it’s the most objective way I can look at anything if I want to review things with standards that are more than just “I like this” or “I don’t like that”.

And in the case of Damian he’s never not been inconsistent. Like one of the main reasons I reread Batman and Robin (or at least Morrison’s run) was for plans of a post about flanderization in the Bat-Family, cause it was pretty rampant in the 00s and still continues often to this very day, and I think is the cause of a lot of lost sales and unhappiness and overall fandom diminishment.

However also to say it, I liked to see a lot of what Damian could be within B&R 09.

But anyways, basically just because I can’t really do a part of the post on Damian without trying to figure out what he was like to begin with, and what he was supposed to be per his creator.

Cause you can’t really tell in fandom. Cause his most popular comics are from stuff that isn’t in the main universe and was purposely a lot lighter, or in the main universe from writers that really surprisingly didn’t get the character despite the popularity--which continues my thinking on it was less about the quality of the writing and more about the lazy fan service. They honestly really flanderized him in a similar yet opposite way then what they did with Tim in the 00s.

And while I can’t act like the sexism and homophobia wasn’t an actual part of the character of Damian at the time--he shows both of those traits in the series (at least the homophobia, cause I’m now realizing that I might be thinking of another series for the sexism). He was flanderized even then by other writers from the different series.

Like how he’s written in Red Robin, is not freaking Damian. It’s not Damian to me. I don’t accept it as Damian. Even a lot of the content of him in Batgirl I even less feel like is Damian--besides unfortunately some of the sexist comments, but they never really proper developed him on that as far as like--actively showing that, at least that I can recall. So all I can really say is it’s uncomfortable, and how they don’t delve into it is the only real reason I say “That actually sadly does fit in with him”. But it’s not like it doesn’t make sense, he was raised to fight, not to handle emotions or feelings, he probably would do and say really creepy things when he has a crush--I just wish they’d actually acknowledge that what was going on rather than sacrificing a good story for more fan service.

The other writers make him too much of a bratty, snotty, kid. And I found that, that is an absolutely terrible interpretation of Damian, because beyond his origin, he isn’t a typical brat, and he doesn’t really act like a kid (in some ways yes, but general mannerisms and personality no). And even then he was a different kind of brat. He was entitled and bitchy in his origin, not immature (at least in the same way) and snotty. They have him act more like some spoiled brat from next door rather than a kid that was abused into being obedient to be what his abusive mother wanted (Talia shouldn’t be abusive, but like I said before, I think the series sucked overall for reasons like that and more).

(I also find that stupid line cutting scene in RR where I presume he was trying to kill Tim to be even stupider, cause Damian wouldn’t freaking do that at that point. They make Damian come off as so stupid in that issue, I hate it. Cause it was all just a cheap way to force sympathy for him, but it doesn’t even make sense when you think about it and is a huge stretch.)

Damian doesn’t make jokes when he’s written better--it’s like his thing. He’s got quite the temper, and understandably why of course. He’s violent with criminals, but he’s also mostly just stoic as his base state when not in a stressed situation, and even shows remorse (which is a big stretch from his origin, but I blame that on the writing which could be very rushed and lazy). He was treated like just another adult for the most part, and it had a weirdly endearing quality despite the maturity of it, and general edge of the series. It was Damian’s place and it worked really well. It just felt right for their dynamics. Damian’s a unique kid, and they respected him for who he was. He just needed help on his morals and stability.

But other series didn’t really get that. He would still be really rude like his origin, and not really the same tone of rudeness (I’m not sure if I can really explain what I mean by that), he’s aggressive, but putting him in Teen Titans never made sense to me, because I don’t see Dick doing that. Dick had a lot more respect than to force Damian to do something like that. Dick was more patient, and while he did lightly smack (not any kind to hurt him any. literally to demonstrate without pain. more taps really) him to teach him a point about aesthetical weaknesses in his costume like the hood, it was mostly done out of finding a way to teach him that would speak to him. So just forcing him to do something he didn’t want to do--which would clearly not work on him--was just contrived and plain bad writing wise. Something they did more as a stunt so they can say “TITANS NOW HAS THE SON OF BATMAN” than to use him well or continue his story in a natural way.

With Cass I can’t say anything, because that’s like the one time he talks to her, and that basically shows their dynamic. So that’s just them, I can’t really say anything on it. If he felt challenged by her I could see him being a total jerk. It really depends on the scenes themselves. I never read the series myself cause I genuinely really don’t like that Batman Reborn era of Bat-Family. Too much of it was just done for publicity and random changes, and for the most part didn’t work much to me.

But overall, at the same time, despite me singing the praises of what Damian could be, and was for a little while. The overall writing for the character arc was super lazy. Stuff just kind of happens, and way too quick to fit in with what they introduced. He just kind of goes “this is right, now”, which makes his whole brainwashing thing feel a bit--useless, and makes how he went from chopping heads off to that in very little time sort of cuts out depth that could’ve really made the series more rereadable. Damian actually comes off surprisingly as a very flat character for stretches of time in the issues because his character arc is never focused on as much as you’d think until they need to be like “Oh yeah...uh, here’s an emotional moment”. Which just felt really cheap to me.

So the series to me isn’t worth it if you want a good story. None of the stories were good to me, I think I was questioning each one cause it was either schlocky, out of character, or both. I know people like Grant Morrison, but they aren’t for me, I’m not a fan of their writing. Damian was a Gary Stu a lot, which they try to explain with the League thing--but having the League give him experimental surgery so he could walk the same day (or next) after being legitimately paralyzed was just way too freaking much to me. But he does make mistakes, so he’s not at base a Gary Stu really--the writing just really stunk badly sometimes.

This isn’t me putting in a bid to say “OH YOU JUST NEED TO READ THIS, AND YOU’LL FREAKING LOVE HIM”, because to be freaking honest, when you already have a bad taste in your mouth, it’s best to just wait a bit till trying again. I read the fandom recommended comics and felt there was so many problems that I couldn’t read Damian for literal months. And he still has a lot of the problems you said. I’m just saying Damian is surprisingly different when written by his creator than others, cause honestly nearly every single other writer for him has gotten him wrong. Like mind-blowingly wrong. He does not feel like the same character anywhere else. It’s nuts.

To put it another way, it’s a generally speaking bad series, but if you want to see what Damian was meant to be like before they kept regressing him, and diminishing him, and turning him into more a joke, and see what his dynamic with Dick and Alfred was meant to be like, it’s a brilliant and perfect series to read it for.

It’s better for learning about them--then it actually is to enjoy it. Because it’s most likely not a series I’m going to be returning too often unless to research something again.

[davidmann95]

Top 10 batman artists?

I put off answering this one for months, and while it’s true that it took awhile to really catch me in the right mood (and for me to get through everything else I’ve been getting in that time), it’s also because this is one of the most intensely punishing asks I’ve gotten. With Superman this wasn’t so bad; plenty of great artists with that guy to be sure, but there’s a certain group that stands pretty handily above the rest, plus a couple personal favorites I could filter in. With Batman on the other hand, there’s more than a handful of names where it feels actively wrong of me not to put them in the top 10, and if you ask me on a different day I’m pretty sure I’d come up with a significantly different list, including maybe even who’s on top. For ‘honorable mentions’ I have to point out Sheldon Moldoff, Jerry Robinson, Carmine Infantino, Jim Aparo, Frank Miller, Francesco Francavilla, Brian Bolland, Chris Burnham, Tim Sale, Alan Davis, Mike Parobeck, Jim Lee, Cameron Stewart, Andy Kubert, Jock, Neal Adams, Frank Quitely, Frazer Irving, Matt Wagner, and Graham Nolan. See what I mean? There are creators here who’ve done the best work of their careers on Batman, who I’d rank near the top of a list in any other category, who just don’t quite cut it when the competition’s this fierce.

10. Alex Ross

Most of the criticisms leveled at Ross’s art over the years have at least a kernel of truth to them, but for Batman his work’s often stiff and stentorian bent lends itself well to the material. The realism of his figures only makes the monstrosity of Gotham and Batman as a silhouette stand out more, and Batman’s suit itself has rarely if ever looked better than under his brush.

9. Steve Rude

If he had more work to his name with the caped crusader, I expect Rude would wind up higher; he’s one of the few artists out there whose work is precisely as well suited to Batman as Superman, and his dreamy, noir vision of Batman and his world are compelling and fully fleshed-out.

8. Dick Sprang

The foremost of Batman and Robin’s Golden Age artists in my opinion, his dynamic duo were vibrant, powerful, and jam-packed with style and detail.

7. Marshall Rogers

Rogers’ Batman for me was defined above all else by boldness - while he grounded his work in a relatively literal interpretation of Batman and his world, his unusual angles, sharp bursts of energy, and inspired, sometimes outright psychedelic storytelling flourishes made his seemingly conventional take on Batman read like a roller coaster ride through hell.

6. Greg Capullo

The modern superstar, there’s a reason Capullo’s shot up so high so fast on the back of his work with Snyder. His Batman blends the stylishness of Bruce Timm with Frank Miller’s grungy, hulking weight to show a Batman who feels equally at home battling zombie ninjas and a brainwashed Justice League as wading through toxic haunted sewers or peeling back the fingernails of a gruesomely disfigured stab victim searching for clues.

5. Norm Breyfogle

The guy who does the Monster Of The Night. Not so horrific as to no longer work as a superhero - he could handle Batman in that territory as well as anyone, with a springy, dynamic quality to his work and fantastically pliable faces that fit Batman at various extremes - but by God, when you want Batman as a horror against the night sky, his cape blowing in impossible, disturbing shapes, Norm Breyfogle is your man.

4. David Mazuccheli

He just did it the once, and the once was more than enough. His Batman is the Batman who feels like a real guy, with weight and muscle and definition; simple enough to remain iconic, heavy enough to grasp that holy cow, this is supposed to be a human guy jumping around doing this crazy shit. And he could turn it on into all-out demonic as necessary for crashing the mobster dinner: in every regard, the best of both worlds.

3. Dick Giordano

I’ve made the argument in the past that Dick Giordano is in fact the best Batman artist of all time, and catch me on the right day and I’ll probably hold to that. The key is versatility: his Batman just works perfectly in any kind of story. His Batman can be a serious Batman, his Batman can be a fun superhero Batman, his Batman can be a horror Batman, all without changing a single detail. He drew the Platonic Batman.

2. J.H. Williams III

HIS STUFF’S JUST SO PRETTY. Williams is tops wherever he goes and whatever he does, and his gothic leanings and jaw-dropping panel designs provide a spooky, claustrophobic feeling that suits Batman’s world perfectly. And moreover, he’s J.H. Williams III.

1. Darwyn Cooke

Cooke drew a perfect Batman. Everything about his style, his influences, his storytelling, everything about every aspect of his craft was perfectly attuned to drawing Batman. Few did spooky or superheroey Batman like him, none did noir Batman like him. Simply, flatly perfect.