#Finwe if you are reading this this is your fault you got me thinking about horror stuff in this fandom

[inahandful-of-dust]

And that's why the Arkensone Looks Like That - which incidentally looks quite a bit like a Silmaril.

(Luckily for his manifacctured blood pressure and sanity, Olorin-known-as-Gandalf is Not One of Aule's and fights to brush off the very uncomfortable thoughts about Silmarils when he sees the Areknstone.)

This has the potential to be a Very Terrible Idea, but hear me out:

Fact: Fëanor was a jewelsmith who was, shall we say, well-known for being able to artificially create jewels.

Fact: Curufin his son inherited most of his skill of hand.

Fact: As Fëanor's fiery spirit left his body, it fell to ash.

Fact: Having a diamond made from the ashes of a loved one is a Thing You Can Do in the real world.

... I trust you see where I'm going with this.

Anon how does your brain fit inside your skull? I’m obsessed with this. I think elves would find this extremely creepy and that’s part of the appeal of the headcanon. It’s so obsessive and messed up (for an elf, I mean), I highkey want it! I’m also immediately thinking of who gets it... Because hear me out... Celebrimbor somehow ending up with Feanor the diamond is an interesting concept no matter how you spin it

[scary-grace]

☕️ feanorians 👀 i know you have thoughts...

I do indeed have thoughts about the Feanorians, and I will admit that some of my gripes with the Feanorians are gripes with their fans. But when I’ve read the Silmarillion, it seemed that a strong-ish argument could be made that the Feanorians are the villains of the story, not the tragic heroes. Sure, the initial sin is committed by Morgoth in murdering Finwe and stealing the Silmarils, both of which are inexcusable, but from that point on, the terrible things being done in the narrative are largely being done by the Feanorians to everybody else. And no one — absolutely no one — is compelling them to do it.

I like a good tragedy as much as the next person. To me, one of the key features of a tragedy is its inexorability— the smallest details and circumstances, all piling up on one another to force an outcome no one wanted, with no one able to stop it until it’s too late. The Feanorians as a group (and their plotlines) are missing that inexorability to me. Finwe’s ghost doesn’t appear to Feanor Hamlet’s-dad style to order him to seek vengeance. Feanor does it on his own, which means that destruction of his own family and the thousands of people who die over the course of the War for the Jewels (and subsequently the War of Wrath) are his responsibility. Nobody pushed him into it. He was warned against it by just about everyone. And yet, off he goes.

I referenced Hamlet in the above paragraph, but when I’m thinking of tragedy, I kind of revert back to the Ancient Greek tragedies — Oedipus Rex and the Oresteia. Oedipus does everything a hero is supposed to do, but events set in motion by a single decision that wasn’t even his to make create a catastrophe that he’s powerless to avert. Orestes, meanwhile, knows damn well why he shouldn’t kill his own mother. He knows what will happen to him if he does. But he’s compelled to anyway, by culture and by honor and by grief.

The cultural factor doesn’t exist for the Feanorians. There’s no precedent in Noldorin culture for what to do if your father is murdered, and there’s no commandment to drag your entire family down with you in a quest for revenge that’s doomed to fail. And the ignorance factor doesn’t exist, either. Every decision is squarely in Feanor’s (and later, his sons’) hands, and they have all the information they need to make choices that won’t result in three Kinslayings, five disastrous battles, one child-kidnapping, and an attempt at forcing marriage in a culture where consent is the entire ballgame. The Feanorians act with malice. They disregard their own people and their own allies. Morgoth doesn’t make them commit the massacre at Sirion (you know, the one that even the Feanorian fans can’t defend); that’s one hundred percent pure Feanorian initiative. That’s not the behavior of tragic heroes. Those are the actions of villains.

So my thoughts on the Feanorians are that if the Silmarillion is a tragedy, they’re the villains, not the heroes. If the Silmarillion is a fable, they’re the bad example. (Tolkien reinforces this in The Hobbit — I don’t think it’s an accident that Thorin goes berserk and tries to kill one of his closest allies over a big shiny rock.) If the Silmarillion is a history, their response to Morgoth is the architecture on which thousands of years of tragedy are built. However they got to where they are at the moment of Finwe’s death (the Valar yoinking them all from Middle-earth was a bad move), at the end of the day, they’re still the ones holding the sword.*

*(Part of my insistence on the Feanorians being the bad guys is a response to some corners of the fandom trying to exonerate them for absolutely everything by blaming their victims. I’ve seen people say the first Kinslaying was Olwe’s fault for not giving up the ships, that the second Kinslaying was Dior’s fault for not giving up the Silmaril his parents retrieved, that the third Kinslaying was Elwing’s fault for — existing, I guess. And that it was just so mean of Thingol not to immediately submit to the people who murdered his brother. Anything to get Maedhros and company off the hook.)

Thank you for the ask! Sorry if I rambled a bit — once I got into trying to actually articulate my problems, it got a little complicated.

[erynalasse]

What are your thoughts on Finwe? We've examined his children and his children's children to death, and along the way we've talked about this guy, but I'd be curious to see what you'd say about him in a long meta format. Should we condemn the Noldor Patriarch, and if so, on what grounds?

To me, a lot of Finwë’s shortcomings are characterized by what he didn’t do, rather than what he did. It’s an interesting theme of the Silmarillion: some of the most morally grey conundrums are found in the gaps by asking where people were, and why they didn’t do something. But that’s a ramble for another day!

Contrary to what my opener might have sounded like, I have a lot of sympathy for Finwë. Losing a beloved spouse is terrible—more so when you have children. But Finwë, of course, never expected to lose Míriel because this is Aman, and that kind of thing doesn’t happen here. Indeed, the Silmarillion is very explicit on this point: “[A]lone in all the Blessed Realm he was deprived of joy.” That’s a powerful claim to make, but let’s examine it a bit more.

I do think this is a poetic overstatement in many ways. For one, Finwë has a newborn son, and if he can’t find any joy in Fëanor at all, we’re focusing on the wrong problems here. Second, I also have a hard time buying that nobody in Valinor has experienced losing a spouse. Finwë was a leader at Cuiviénen and part of the generation of the Great Journey; he’s seen death before Aman, and so did the people who came with him. The implication of that quote above seems to be that all of these dead have returned from the Halls of Mandos, but it’s not like nobody in Valinor knows this particular pain. Besides, the past clings; there are going to be people “deprived of joy” because of a traumatic losses, even when loved ones come back. Correcting the loss doesn’t mean everything is okay again.

And yet, Finwë’s situation is different, and those differences are worth commenting on too. Not only is Míriel the first and only death in Valinor, her death is permanent. She has no desire to return to life, and that throws a wrench in the whole expected cycle. I can’t overstate how little help Finwë had to deal with this revelation. Nobody knows what this is like. Nobody has wisdom to give him. Nobody can sympathize with him, and in that way, Finwë is truly the only one in Valinor deprived of joy in this particular way. And I think this is how Indis enters the picture. It’s a fairly straightforward chain of logic: “I lost my wife, and now I am unhappy. If I remarry, this will restore my happiness.” I don’t mean to imply that Finwë just wanted a replacement — it’s explicit canon he never moves on from Míriel’s loss. It just feels like the kind of reasoning that would occur to a man steeped in a social context that goes ????? when confronted with this issue. I honestly have a hard time faulting that. Finwë seemed pretty fair about it all. He got the consent to remarry from everyone involved — even Míriel, and even the Valar, though I don’t think it was their business.

Except Fëanor. Yeah. How do we assess the fairness of a parent’s remarriage on their child? There are no easy answers, either in canon or in our own world. But I do think I there are two things in Finwë’s favor:

Finwë waits until Fëanor is fully grown to remarry. He’s married and living apart by then. (Per the published Silm, at least. @arofili has a fantastic post about the different versions someplace here!) Even in a very bad-faith reading, you can’t really argue that Finwë is setting out to give his first son a replacement mother in Indis.

In not one, but two different places, the Silmarillion makes a point that Finwë lavishes Fëanor with love, even exceeding that given to his wife and other children. At the very least, Fëanor cannot claim he was neglected and overlooked.

But about that last point, I think we do need to tack on some disclaimers. As I can attest, having parents who love you does not mean that they are good parents, nor does it mean that you have a healthy relationship with them. It certainly doesn’t mean that Finwë handled Fëanor’s anger and insecurities effectively, insofar as that was possible. 

In fact, I think Finwë’s relationship with Fëanor is most effectively read as a man desperately overcompensating for his son’s flaws by favoring him in every way. Finwë responds to extreme loss with extreme indulgence. For context, we have to see the same basic issue about step-family issues as we do about being a losing a spouse forever: Nobody in Valinor knows what to do about this. There are no good rulebooks for it. There are no examples to look at. And like with Míriel, I think Finwë’s actions make the most sense when you realize that this is where he’s coming from.

Even without the benefit of an established path, I still think that Finwë handles this family badly. Because you don’t have to be a genius to anticipate that having half-siblings will cause complicated feelings, and it’s unfair of Finwë to bring children into that when he wasn’t committed to treating them all fairly. And his unfairness goes way, way beyond just excessive attention to Fëanor in three really critical places: 

First, there’s the famous sword-to-the-throat incident. Finwë hears about the growing discord between the branches of his family and calls his sons together. Fingolfin gets there first, and he demands to know what Finwë is going to do to rein in Fëanor. Fëanor then arrives, accuses his brother of weaseling into first place in both counsel and succession, then draws his sword on Fingolfin and tells him to leave. Fingolfin bows to Finwë, and leaves “without word or glance to Fëanor”—and I can’t help reading some sarcastic implication there to the tune of see? see what your eldest son does? And Finwë! Finwë says nothing! Not to Fingolfin in reassurance, not to Fëanor in in reprimand, nothing. Not then, and not after. 

The Valar exile Fëanor for this incident, and Finwë follows his son into exile, forsaking the kingship to do it. This is really the lowest point of Finwë’s parenting for me. You cannot read this as anything other than a choice between his eldest son and his other children, especially on the heels of Fëanor threatening threatening Fingolfin with a sword. Fëanor pulls that, and Finwë once again responds with favoritism instead of criticism. What’s most interesting to me here is that Finwë does this out of “the love that he bore to Fëanor,” which is the exact same word that got thrown around other times that Finwë’s favoritism is pointed out. The continuity is critical. 

Finwë’s own death. Buddy. Buddy boy. What did you think you were doing here, trying to stand against Morgoth? You are not an idiot! You were at Cuviénen and you knew the Black Rider! You know it took all fourteen of the Valar to overcome him in the first war, and you think you can – frighten him? fight him off? restrain him? This is so very stupid, and yet Finwë doesn’t flee like everyone else. It’s clearly implied he was guarding the Silmarils that were left in Formenos under his care, because there was nothing and nobody else left worth protecting. And in so doing, Finwë placed his son’s dearest creations over his crown and his own life. This is, simply put, nothing less than a dereliction of duty to his people.

And so, in the end, I think Finwë’s faults were not so much that he remarried or had more children, but that he handled the set of problems that resulted very badly. The problem with him is that his faults are tangled up in grief and loss, as well as what feels like a genuine confusion about what he’s supposed to do about all this. He’s a fascinating character who gets more fascinating the more you dissect him, and it was a delight doing it here!

[elvellonath]

Permanent Hiatus Notice / Goodbye

Okay, so after a few days of serious deliberation, and weeks of surely-annoying lack of activity, I've decided it's time to make a choice one way or another regarding this blog, and the future of my roleplaying in general. Long story short, I'm quitting. This is not an easy choice to make, I've been going back and forth for a while considering how much I don't want to disappoint everyone here, but at the same time I have to balance the idea of my actual inspiration. In essence, I've been unable to get any bit of inspiration for any of my characters in any way, and though likely nobody cares regarding the whole story, I just need to get it off my chest a little so that'll be under a read more.

So, no need to read past this point if you don't want to, and I wish everyone a happy life and that you all have fun with each other. Like Antigonius from Winter's Tale it's time to take my cue to exit stage right and be pursued by a bear—(( wait, what? )) Anyway, tragic endings of Shakespearean characters aside, I am happy to have met you all, and to have written with you, and since this blog hit its 100 followers sometime this week I might as well end on a good note and give a fun lil bias list in honor of all y'all who are still around. I'll miss you, but I feel that between marriage, a baby on the way, and a host of various other stressers which are pressing upon me (( half out of hormones I've no doubt )), it's best to turn to the things which I am quickly finding myself entrenched with anyway: writing for myself. Therefore, if any of you see stories with ships which you recognize/friendships etc... raises hand mea culpa. I can't help it, I've been around for nearly a year and a half (( might already be a year and a half I have no idea, I've been rping for nearly 5 years so... time flies )), and I'm sure my characters will love to show themselves after all this time in stories. Can't help it.

But without further ado … about nothing … ahem the Bias List:

@sorrowssinger​, @feralandfair​, @edhelaran​, @rondo-tarmenel​, @warriorswithin​, @bouncingbeleg​, @chieftess-of-the-haladin​, @dolamrotha​, @first-son-of-finwe​, @fcrestmaiden​, @loyalservants​, @neverparted​, @sindaran​, @voidxsm​, @ardaisms​, @forgemaiar​​, @lightofthetrees

Not many, I know, but these are the people I would suggest highly in all admiration. they’re great at what they do, and their characters are among my favorites, so if you don’t know them you totally should. You won’t regret it.

Again, let me say how awesome you've all been, and how I hope you will all do very very well in all your endeavors. To all of my shipping partners, it's been amazing to rp with you, and I can assure you I'll likely carry all my crackships with me in fond memory. I'm sorry for leaving you, but I feel it's necessary. Good luck, you guys.

If you wish to contact me, I can be found at my personal @thefrenchiestgoldenfry​ or on Discord at Nana#6882. Just to make it clear, I will not be returning, and so... Farewell, wherever you fare till your eyries receive you at your journey’s end.

-Nana

To explain in full my decision to leave, I figured I'd put that here for those who wanted to know, and also so I can just let some of it out so that I can close the door completely.

As you've probably noticed, I've... not been doing well in a sense of getting things done on here. I started with a huge amount of drive, but slowly my idealistic view of Rping has given way to baggage which I have started carrying around with me. I've altered my rules a number of times, had to deal with anons, watched people who I liked around disappear, seen frustrating debates, been told how to do things on my blog, and frankly... I get way too involved, and one by one stuff has been taking a toll on me.

I guess I never should have moved stuff, thinking back, as it kinda set in motion a grouping of characters together in a way I didn’t consider, and therefore caused them all to be knocked out with one blow.

The final straw has been Aredhel, to be honest, who used to be my main muse, but now she's barely around for me to think about, let alone write. I guess she's been so involved in my process of this for so long (( being my first Tolkien muse to take on back when I was part of a group )) that without my ability to write her, things fell apart. It's my fault, to be honest, I made her too weak to start with, too soft, too gentle, too... able to be pushed around, I guess, as I fell trap to what some people seemed to want from her. That being said, when I finally got around to changing her back to my original idea, it seemed to make things worse and within a week I regretted it, due to how it altered things with other characters. And so, bit by bit, Aredhel kinda disappeared into the shadows, and with her my inspiration to write the characters, not just here, but overall across all my blogs.

In addition, I got married back in September, and I'm now in my first trimester of pregnancy so my emotions are all over the place (( but mainly in inordinate stress. )). Therefore, things are happening that I just don't have the time I used to, and so that became a strong factor as well.

Anyway, ever since, I've been on a slippery slope. One second completely fine, and the next second completely unable to write out even a sentence. I tried to distract myself, take on new people in effort to find that one character that would click as much as she did—but I've not found a single one, and in that I guess I got myself more bogged down. Aredhel is my baby, and I guess that her disappearing into a corner took all my motivation from me despite my best efforts. Yet, strangely enough, I found myself capable of writing outside of RP, and writing her outside of RP. In just stories, where I don't feel the pressure of owing things, or anons, etc.

That being said, over the last two weeks I've been completely AWOL for the sake of my thinking, and in it I've been doing a lot of just plain writing. It's hard, in a way, because I've been Rping for so long, but in the end here I've found myself more relaxed than I've been in a long time. I've let the babies rest, and in it I've found new inspiration which is great to have again.

And so, a few days ago I considered just leaving—and now here I am. Again, I'm sorry for whatever disappointment this will cause, I'm sorry that like others I'm now leaving this community which I love very dearly, and phasing out. But in the end I think it'll be better for everyone. Me, because I'll be relaxed; and all of you because now you won't have to worry about replies I've not answered, or wondering if I will etc, etc.

So yeah... that's it. It's more detailed than that, but I think that's sufficient. Just didn't want to leave any questions for my full absence if there were any...

[feanor-no]

While I agree that it wasn't the fault of just one person, that doesn't however mean that no one was at fault, or that they're all equally responsible.

What people keep confusing I think, is the situation in Valinor with our own mortal, modern standards. Elves in Valinor aren't supposed to die. If they die they can come back to life after a time. For that reason (and Tolkien's catholicism), marriages are supposed to be forever, no exceptions, no backsies. Elven pregnacies drain the parents, especially the mum, in spirit as well as in body. Feanor's mum, after giving birth to him, was exhausted (and suffering from some kind of elven postpartum likely). That wasn't why she was sent to Lorien at first though, no, if memory serves, mr Finwe was already planning for a big family and Miriel straight up told him she's not having anymore kids, she got it right the first time and now she's done, and then she is sent to Lorien to "heal". (Nowdays, most couples, when they reach an impasse like that would consider if the marriage is working for them or if a divorse would be preferable, but, infuriatingly, that's not an option here.)

Then Miriel dies, while still in Lorien (as in she was literally so tired that she laid down and her spirit left her body) and Finwe's grieved, and asks the Valar to bring her back. The Valar offer to reembody her but she refused, saying that all she wants is to rest, which is understandable, but it baffles Valar and Finwe alike (because they're idiots). Her spirit is still suffering from exhaustion, but instead of letting her use this time to properly heal, as she was meant to, before asking her to return right away, the Valar, on Finwe's behalf keep badgering her and summoning her spirit back to ask why she's being so stubborn and won't just return to her husband. They even have a great debate to figure out "what the hell is wrong with Miriel", where they discuss if she died because she is marred, or because her infant son was marred from the womb (those are the only two options apparently, and this debate in-universe is public, which means eveyone heard about the Valar's wisdom on the subject, and Feanor definitely read about it at some point).

Back on track, even in her time in Mandos, which should be a time of rest and healing for her, she still had to deal with Finwe's requests (keep in mind Finwe wasn't like "oh, wise and benevolent Valar, please return my love to me, I'm so lost without her" or anything remotely romantic liked that, his requests boiled down to "I want a big family just like my buddy Ingwe, but now my wife is in Mandos and all I have is this one (1) infant son and I have no one to make more babies with :(:(:( this is so unfair! Why do these things happen to ME?!?) and the Valar's inquiries (notice how nothing about this is about her, it's all framed like Finwe's tragedy, Finwe's loss, what Finwe wants, what Finwe feels, what the Valar think about it, what this means for their blessed realm, Miriel's health and needs are an afterthought and only discussed in terms of how it affects them, which I'm sure isn't intentional on Finwe's part or even the Valar's, but it would still leave a heavy impression on an already depressed Miriel I think).

She says she can't return because she's wary of life (and the prospect of returning to life for the sole purpose of bearing Finwe's many babies is, I imagine, less than appealing at this point). Then Finwe asks, if Miriel won't return to life, what does that mean for him and his dreams of a large family (nice, finwe, very nice). Then, Miriel is summoned back with an ultimatum that's basically "you can either return to life and get on with the baby making, the thing you explicitly said you didn't want to go through again and that was the thing that caused you to be wary of life in the first place, or Finwe will just take another wife. BUT you have to decide right the fuck now, mental health conditions aside, because this (your healing) is taking too long and it's really getting tedious. BUT keep in mind", said the Valar, "according to the rules set down by the all-wise Valar, no man will have more than one living wife, and that means that in order for Finwe to remarry, YOU must forfeit your rights to your husband (sure, whatever) which subsequently means you forfeit your right to live (ummmm,what?!?!?) and you can never EVER return to life, no matter what. You will stay in Mandos forever as a disembodied spirit while your son grows up without his mother, because bigamy is an abomination and so is divorce (nice, Tolkien, very nice). But", the Valar continued, "don't worry, at least Finwe will have his big family with a proper, not selfish wife, in fact we already have a volunteer! Your good friend Indis, remember her? Turns out she always had a thing for your husband and they got cozy with each other since you so selfishly died. We already told them what it means for your spirit if they decide to get married, that bit about you being doomed to remain dead in the Halls forever and never to return, no even if you DO heal eventually, and they both readily agreed! How nice is that?! They didn't even waste any of our time to decide, unlike some people...What a great friend this Indis is, to selflessly put herself forward to help out your dear husband that you abandoned cruelly and without reason. Her children will certainly be blessed and not marred at all, unlike some people! What a great way to solve this conundrum, how fortunate we are that Indis was here and jumped at the opportunity to marry your husband, at only the very small cost of YOUR ETERNAL LIFE! So glad we solved this! We are indeed very wise", the wise Valar concluded and congratulated themselves, happy to have finally found a solution that works for everyone.

Well, almost everyone.

Now, remember that part where I said that all of that nonsense is public record, straight from the mouths of the gods themselves, and suddenly Feanor's dislike of Indis, his mistrust of the Valar, his desperate need for his father love and approval and his general paranoia and constant fear of being easily replaced start to make a lot more sense.

All of that was to say that Feanor's parents didn't get just get divorced and the problem child unfairly blamed it on the "other woman" and made her life hell when she was honestly just trying her best. This isn't that story. Nor did Feanor's mum just dropped dead one day and only afterwards did his dad found love again and decided to move on and remarry, only for Feanor to throw a tantrum because he was a spoiled, unreasonable child. No, Feanor's mum explicitly had to die so that Feanor's dad could be permitted to remarry. And everyone involved agreed that that was a reasonable sacrifice. That's horrible, and everyone involved in this decision is horrible, that includes Indis.

The fact that Indis supposedly had been Miriel's friend just makes it so much worse, not better. It makes it a horrific betrayal. If she was just a stranger who had no reason to care about Miriel or Feanor, that's one thing, but if she was actually her "friend", then she's just a terrible person who was more than happy to sacrifice her "friend" in order to get what she wanted. (I'm sure that's not how Tolkien intended it but that's how I read it). And make no mistake, they did sacrifice her. Death for them isn't supposed to be permanent. It's more like a time out. Mandos is called the Halls of Waiting for that reason. Indis, as well as Finwe knew full well what this would mean for Miriel and decided to go for it anyway.

This isn't death like we think of it, we don't have an equivalent for it. The closest I could come up with would be if a woman was very ill and hospitalised after a difficult birth, her doctors were certain that she could actually make a full recovery with enough time, but her husband decided (after like, a month) that her healing was taking too long and he can't be arsed to wait for her but his religion forbids divorce so he just decides to euthanize her and be done with it, in order to be able to marry someone else instead and get on with his life. Someone, who incidentally happens to be his wife's "dear friend" who saw no problem with this arrangement whatsoever, and happily jumped at the opportunity to bury her "friend" because it meant that she could finally get the guy she was crushing on. I don't know how would anyone defend that.

(That's why I never headcanon them as friends, that would make Indis too horrible of a person for me. At least Finwe, as awful as he was, had the excuse of not being in his right mind due to grief (and it does seem like he regretted it later on, which too little, too late, but good for him I guess), the Valar have the somewhat flimsy excuse of not understanding anything at all ever, but what's Indis excuse here exactly? "Sucks for Miriel ig, but I got mine"?)

I don't think Indis was Evil Incarnate, I do however think she was an extremely selfish, self-centred person and an opportunist (just like Finwe, no wonder they hit it off). Curiously, I don't think Indis needs defending as 99,9% of portrayals I've seen of her are all pretty much the same. Long-suffering, ever-patient, endlessly kind stepmum who has never done anything wrong, doen't have one unkind thought and has only ever tried her best but her vicious, evil stepson dislikes her for existing and makes her life hell, even though she loves him dearly and would love to be a mother to him, if he would just give her a chance.... I'm not saying that that portrayal is necessarily bad, depends on the kind of story you want to tell I suppose, I'm saying that that's pretty much the only interpretation I see of Indis, with some variations. Sometimes she's incredibly wise, sometimes a bit naive, but it's always the same perfect, understanding and loving stepmum who stepped up and is now suffering the unjust scorn of her wicked stepson in silence but with endless patience always. *yawn*

(Sidenote: If you or anyone have come across other portayals that I clearly haven't, please send me links if it's not too much trouble, especially if it's angsty. I'd love to read them because like I said, nearly all the portrayals of Indis I've personally come across are pretty much variations of the same thing and it gets tedious after a while).

If anything, Finwe gets a much more just treatment in the fandom, becase people aren't afraid to point out what a selfish prick he was and how he screwed up, but for some reason, Indis doesn't get anywhere near the amount of scrutiny she should for her actions. Maybe because we know nothing about her, and Tolkien's works aren't exactly filled with developed female characters, so maybe people don't want to vilify the few named female characters we do have. I understand that, but does that mean we have to put every single female character on a pedestal, never allowing them their faults? This isn't even a "let women be evil" thing, because she doesn't have to be evil and we have no reason to think that she was, but her actions do portray a very selfish person who doesn't care about how her actions might affect others as long as she gets what she wants (just like Finwe! Match made in Heaven!) But being selfish isn't the same as being evil.

Yeah, people will blame female characters for merely existing because of misogyny, but then others will go all reactionary and insist that no female character can ever be at fault ever, they all have to be perfect angels all the time, which is just misogyny with a twist. Yeah Indis isn't described as a wicked stepmum, but she isn't described as a good person either. Because she isn't described at all, we only know of (some) of her actions and those don't exactly make her look very good, so why not acknowledge that? She never explicitly said that she hoped for Miriel to die/stay dead in order to marry her husband or that she was happy about this turn of events but.....did she really have to? The fact that she knew that's what would happen and saw no issue with that and happily agreed is bad enough, and it makes her complicit in Miriel death, same as Finwe.

Overall, I don't think one portrayal is necessarily better or more accurate than the other, because again, we know practically nothing about Indis other than her part in Finwe's life, so she can be a blank canvas for the fandom to paint her as they will, and we totally should, that's what fandoms are for, I'm just saying that no interpretation is inherently wrong, and people can like or dislike a character for a variety of reasons, but when it comes to a character's actions in canon, those are meant to tell us things about that character as well as drive the story forward, and personally, I don't think her actions paint her in a very good light. Although she doesn't have the greatest blame here (for me that would be the Valar who made up those stupid one-marriage-per-elf rules in the first place, followed by Finwe who was being incredibly selfish and bitter and it cost Miriel her life and Feanor his mother), she does share part of the blame, and I don't see why she should get a pass when everyone else involved in this mess is rightly criticised. We even criticise Feanor who was a child at the time, but Indis is off-limits for some reason?

I agree that there was no "right" answer (well, apart from a divorce, that would pretty much have solved the whole mess, but the Valar aren't ready for that conversation) but there were plently of "wrong" answers, and in the end that's what everyone chose.

Now, "Was Miriel selfish for refusing to return to Tirion and giving up her life in spite of her husband and child?"

Miriel was literally a spirit who couldn't hold on to life because of her wariness and exhaustion after childbirth and coming back to life would mean more suffering for her. No, I don't think making a choice for your own health is selfish, and I don't think a depressed person could actually make a choice of that magnitude when they are at their lowest, and she was repeatedly asked to when everyone involved knew very well she wasn't in a good place mentally. And on top of that, they made it very clear that it wasn't even about her, rather it was about how her death would inconvenience Finwe because it would be an obstacle to his desire for a large family (a desire she didn't share) and if she continues to be difficult, well, she can easily be replaced. Of course she refused to return, why the hell would she?

(the part about her saying she wasn't ever going to be able to return I take with a massive grain of salt because 1. anyone who has ever experienced depression knows that it messes with your head in a way that you can't even conceive of things ever getting better, you're just stuck in a loop of misery and doubt and unable to even picture a future where you're doing ok (and everyone who has ever lived with depression will also tell you that depression lies to you, things can and will get better, you just have to survive the hard bit first) and 2. she did return to life eventually, after Finwe's death. She wasn't ready to return to live in Tirion so she went to Vaire's halls, but she did come back, proving that she could, and would have, if she was given enough time.

It was clearly stated that she needed time to heal, and she wasn't afforded that. The Valar were in charge of her healing, and not only did they fail her spectacularly, but they also kept interrupting her rest in Mandos to ask her why she was being so stubborn essentially, and why can't she just get well already, framing her illness as being her fault, and her struggle to heal on Finwe's time as a choice she was making out of spite. The Valar would be the worst therapists ever.

"Was Finwe selfish for wanting to remarry against the customs of the Eldar?"

Finwe wasn't selfish for going against the customs of the Eldar, he was selfish for making a decision that would benefit him knowing full well that it would cost his wife her life and his son his mother. He thought only of what he wanted, and didn't care that the two people closest to him would suffer for it. That's the definition of selfish. He could wait for Miriel to return, he could choose not to remarry at all, he could respond to the Valar's judgement with "WTF!!! I said I wanted more kids, not that I wanted my wife to die! What kind of batshit suggestion is that?!?", or he could at the very least wait to remarry (and put the nail on Miriel's coffin) until his son was fully grown, but he did none of those things, because he wanted his big family, and he wanted it now (even though they're all immortal and have nothing but time) and he knew Miriel wouldn't want to have any more kids even if she did return, so he chose what was most convenient for him, regardless of who it would hurt.

"Was Indis selfish for loving her friend’s husband and then marrying him after Miriel’s death?"

It wasn't that she married him after her friends death, it was that she knew full well her marriage would result in her "friends" death, and was perfectly fine with it. Miriel at the time wasn't dead-dead, it was only after they agreed to marry that Miriel's death became permanent and irreversible, as a direct consequence of that decision. ("In Indis was proved true indeed the saying that ‘the loss of one may be the gain of another" - from Morgoth's Ring I believe) Was Indis selfish for that. Absolutely. I don't know why that's a controversial thing to say.

Also, "She stayed away in general and never pushed herself on him and they were deeply in love at the time they married." That's fanon, while we do know that it was said that she loved him "from afar", it's also said that she maintained hope and had refused to marry anyone else even before Miriel's "death" because because she only wanted him. There are a couple of ways to interpret that, some more innocent than others. I also doubt they were "deeply in love" as they basically run into each other, she randomly started singing, he "saw in her eyes" in that moment that she loved him, they decide to get married then and there, got permission from Ingwe and went straight to petition the Valar for remarriage. Now unless significant amount of time passed between those events, I doubt they even had a chance to get to know each other properly let alone be deeply in love. Indis didn't even live in Tirion, she lived with her kin with the rest of the Vanyar, so they wouldn't have had much opportunity or reason to interact before that apart from official visits maybe. And granted, they weren't allowed to marry for 12 (I think?) years after the judgement, but that was because the Valar said so, not by their choice.

"Was Feanor selfish for refusing to accept his father’s remarriage and Indis’ place as queen of the Noldor?"

Umm, no? Not at all? Because his father's remarriage is literally the reason his mother is dead? Those two things are very much connected in a cause-and-effect kind of way and Indis is not an innocent bystander but very much complicit in his mother's death? I'd say he's allowed to be as bitter as he wants about it, if anything he's not bitter enough. "but his disapproval and even hurt feelings don’t get to dictate whether his father gets to pursue a romantic relationship or not." Well, not when you put it like that, except it wasn't like that. His disapproval and hurt feelings were over not wanting his mother to be dead and replaced with a more agreeable version, and whether his father gets to pursue a romantic relationship or not is directly linked to whether his mother gets to be alive or not. So in that sense, I'd say, yeah, his hurt feelings should dictate his father's romantic decisions actually, when it's his own mother's eternal life that is at stake. Not wanting your mother to be dead because of someone else's choices is not selfish. Feeling bitterness towards the people who have actively played a role in your mother's unnatural death isn't unreasonable.

I do think emotions were running high (especially on Finwe's part, he didn't understand Miriel's refusal to return and he was confused and angry about it) and the whole thing was made worse by the Valar's involvement (as most things tend to), due to their inability to undestand 1) the Children and 2) those pesky, confusing emotions. In the end everyone messed up, except for Miriel (no, I don't think she was selfish or stubborn, I think she was ill and needed healing, time, compassion and support, and got none of this things) and Feanor, who was just a kid at the time (age varies depending on what you take as canon). it's not surprising to me that Feanor would not have a warm relationship with his stepmum or siblings and as far as I know, in canon, he never mistreated them (contrary to common belief), he just...wasn't close to them and moved out of the house as soon as he could, it was much, much later AND with decades of Melkor's influence that they started to actively antagonise each other. Maybe he could have tried harder to develop a relationship with them, but I don't see why he would? And since he couldn't get along with them, he did the next best thing and removed himself from the situation, which displays far more maturity from him that his father and Indis ever did.

Anyways, I just realised I wrote a whole ass essay, so sorry about the long rant, I do get carried away sometimes :) It's just that I rarely get to talk about Indis specifically and as you can see, I have a lot of thoughts. Please don't feel the need to respond or anything if this is too much, I'm just happy I managed to actually put my thoughts in order here.

Sometimes I forget there are people who genuinely think Indis was a horrible conniving bitch for marrying a guy she was in love with after his wife died (and had expressly said she had no desire to return to life and did not think that would ever change) and it’s always a little jarring when I’m made to remember

[simaethae]

lots of replies!

yavieriel replied to your post “This is a sort of silly message, and a late one, but I wanted to say I...”

                   Honestly, I feel the same as anon.  Fandom is the reason my feelings on Feanor went from neutral/indifferent to 'flames, flames on the side of my face' vengeful hatred and I'm still bitter about it because I fucking love the Silm/HoMe but goddamn I've hated some parts of the fandom and now reflexively want to murder people over minor characterization/interpretation choices.  I just want to enjoy my favs and write my weird fics and share the love, not walk on eggshells.   

god, I love Feanor but the “he never did anything wrong ever and if he did it wasn’t his fault!!” crowd can be, uh, offputting, I get you. my only reflexive murderous impulses are over the, look, i find fluffy headcanons about Elrond and Elros and their kidnap dads boring but why do people have to keep taking unnecessary swipes at Elwing on points that do not make sense if you read the actual text -

anyway, it sucks and I sympathise and I really hope that eventually certain people who are super wrong are going to look back on their opinions and feel really embarrassed :/

yavieriel replied to your post “��Glorfindel .”

                   I'm curious about your opinion of Elrond/Glorfindel as a pairing then, I've always thought of them as tbh the most obvious and the most substantial option - also I'm weak to the kind of   lord/liege dynamics there  

I have trouble shipping characters who are canonically in relationships with other people, though? I mean, like most pairings I could probably be sold on it by the right fic, but... idk, they’re probably just characters who seem too healthy and functional for me to get invested >_>

vardasvapors replied to your post “This isn't for the meme, but I saw your answer to that anon, where you...”

                   omg this is such a pure ask? also btw you were the person who got me really interested in second age sauron from his own pov :)    

My dream is to drag everyone else down with me <3

vardasvapors replied to your post “��Glorfindel .”

                   you should do what i do in cases where nothing i say is unpopular, and make up a wild-sounding headcanon out of thin air      

In retrospect this explains so much.

thelioninmybed replied to your post “��Glorfindel .”

                   I'm biased as fuck too but I don't think you're wrong - the Silm inference-based pairings tend to have more interesting and well thought out dynamics than, say, Glordfindel/Erestor - I've yet to see a take on them that wasn't painfully generic                

I mean, what’s up with people who don’t obsess over scraps of canon and build up detailed headcanons based on - I was about to say minimal context but Tolkien never wrote anything without ten layers of context in his life. (How does Erestor manage to get actual scenes in canon and still have less personality than Celebrimbor tho.)

yavieriel replied to your post “�� Elven hair physics?”

                   I am glad to know someone shares my opinion because I've held this for years but fandom refuses to see the glory.      

I am glad someone else shares the burden of being so right about this objectively correct and canonically-supported fact.

yavieriel replied to your post “��elvish/immortal family relationships and family life?”

                   I'd like to thank you from the deck of the good ship Indis/Nerdanel, where Indis is always too sensible to spend time pining after the unreachable, and if neither of your husbands are coming back people are pretty understanding.              

I honestly love that Indis’ reaction to falling for Finwe was to just... get on with her life, because she’s a well-rounded person with interests outside her relationships.

thelioninmybed replied to your post “�� Elven hair physics?”

                   would that mean cutting it HURT? Luthien clearly even tougher than I thought     

Isn’t there that thing where some species of octopus break off a tentacle for - wait, no, this is getting weird.

thelioninmybed replied to your post “�� politics (in tokien not irl)”

                   inzilbeth fic!          

but what happens in it, plot is hard :/

vardasvapors replied to your post “�� Elven hair physics?”

                   also just saying this would also make that post about elf hair bondage even better                

vardasvapors replied to your post “�� Elven hair physics?”

                   I feel like this says something about Glorfindel but I'm not sure what        

I feel like these two replies go together. (Also, what post about elf hair bondage, link me pls!)      

[elvellonath]

In Defense of Earendil - Meta

Okay, so I’ve written this rant in response to some things I’ve seen concerning Earendil, and considering I play an Earendil I can’t exactly leave it unspoken. It’s long as fuck, so please know that before you click the read more, but as a long story short I will say this:

Earendil is a complex character who should not be so simply looked at. He’s not a villain, and the fact that everyone seems to have little compassion or consideration for him as a character should be thought over twice. Now to each his own, but do not expect me to sway on this without a well thought out explanation from any haters. Don’t bother if you haven’t looked at Earendil from his point of view.

Before we begin, I would like to say a few words concerning Earendil. I know the fandom is split between two factions: Those who believe that the Feanorians were wrong to adopt Elrond & Elros, and those who believe that Earendil was a shit father to begin with and have no respect for him whatsoever. Both of these, I might add, are completely and totally biased, and are far too one dimensional for me to give any credence to. While I will not disagree that Earendil could have done better, I would like to point out a few things in both arguments that are amiss.

Namely:

Think out side the box

Now, let's start with facts and counterpoint that second statement of Earendil being a shit father.

Earendil's Heritage.

This is a factor that gets so often overlooked when those who have this argument look at Earendil. For starters, he is of the house of Finwe. The house of Finwe was --clearly-- a house of those who were incredibly familycentric. More specifically, the house of Fingolfin is from where he hails, and just by the interactions of all the rest of the family with each other it's clear that no matter what family always came first. Always. That being said, Earendil was raised by Idril, daughter of Turgon, and frankly I doubt Idril would have raised her son to be the prick so many seem to think. Here's further proof of the family itself: Fingon.

Fingon, who when everyone was angry with the Feanorians and wanted nothing to do with them went into enemy territory to save his cousin. Fingon, who was so greatly loved, who had his own faults, but it's clear he was admired etc. You see where I'm going with this? Shall I list all of Earendil's family who by proxy would have affected him with the stories of them, who show the very grain of how Finweians think of family? No? I'll go on then.

Secondly, the house of the Edain-- fucks sake, just look at every single person from these houses from Turin to Haleth --there is a line of loyalty and family honor which is so deeply ingrained in these houses there's no way that Tuor didn't put that same family value in his son in any way, shape, or form.

Proof of this in Earendil himself? Mom and dad sail off, and Earendil builds a ship to find them because it's his parents, and for whatever reason he's trying to get them back. Now this has a drawback: frankly he married a woman who was nowhere near his equal in family ties, probably because her own family was slaughtered when she was a small child. Now Earendil had his faults, I'll give anyone that, spending so much time away from growing children is something that can harm them. HOWEVER, let us consider things from his point of view.

He marries Elwing, he has a wife, his parents sail to the west and NO FURTHER WORD IS HEARD FROM THEM. His family and therefore his upbringing would demand that he has answers, that he makes sure everything is alright, etc, etc. Now, he has kids, kids who he worries about and doesn't abandon, he leaves them with his wife. I repeat: he didn't abandon them. It would be against his very grain. His very upbringing. He left his children with someone he loved and trusted, with someone who he believed would do what was best, and I'm sure he visited in between months at sea.

My own father was in the navy when I was very young, and he was gone for almost a year at a time, I won't lie and say it didn't affect me --it did-- but that didn't mean he was a bad father. There's plenty of people who can say the same I'm sure, who were raised with men who weren't around much. Men who didn't have a choice. But that doesn't mean the father's don't love them, and in turn just because Earendil would sail away and come back, and sail away doesn't mean he didn't love Elrond and Elros. Furthermore, he left Elwing with them, which for all intents and purposes is something that every single military man does with his family. And yet no one blames them.

Here's another aspect that should go into his character and should be understood. Think for a few seconds one specific character that is mentioned by name that Earendil looked up to and loved.

Ecthelion.

Now we don't know much about Ecthelion, but in general it's clear what sort of elf he was. He was the type of elf that was looked up to greatly, the type of elf who was willing to lay down his life for the lives of everyone around him. The type of elf who stood in front of a balrog and died so that others could live.

But moving on.

The Opinion of Others on Earendil

Now this is something which should be noted for all those who condemn him: when Tolkien created Earendil as the first part of his  legendarium. Earendil's mythology was his first written part, and thereby sets the tone for the entire mythology. Entire. Mythology.

Earendil is clearly in high regard in Middle Earth, from Galadriel to the Valar themselves. The Phial of Galadriel is made from the light of the Silmaril which Earendil carried through the sky, he was known as Gil-Estel ...the star of hope. Now tell me this: if Earendil was the ass that he is seen as, just why would anyone give him such high honors? Furthermore, why would Tolkien who clearly knows what a son of a bitch is like (i.e., look at Eol please), make Earendil such a centerpiece of his writing if he was as horrible as people seem to think him?

'The light of Earendil, our most beloved star'

Either Galadriel is supporting a man who was atrocious to his own kids, calls him 'our most beloved star' in complete lies, or he wasn't atrocious to his own kids. Just Saying.

Earendils fate

This is something that boggles my mind so seriously. If Earendil gains anything, it is my compassion. Now to do this, I'm going to need you to open your mind just a fraction and look at things from Earendils perspective. Now, some might say this is conjecture, but I'm looking at the personality of Earendil as given in canon, plus some logic.

Earendil's parents leave, they sail west, and no word of them ever returns. So, he sets out to find them, which is completely reasonable given the ban on the Noldori to return to Aman. He builds a ship, and he sails off, scouring the sea as best as he can in hopes that either he'll find his parents, or if he doesn't at least he'll find some word of what might have happened to them. He leaves his wife and children for months at a time, though comes back because he loves and misses them (because he would, people), though he's driven to have this one last loose thread closed.

He sails off one time, and he is completely cut off from the mainland, and the next thing he knows a swan lands on his ship, and the next morning this swan turns into his wife. Naturally he asks what happened, and naturally she answers him with her side of the tale of what happened in Sirion. Given his drive over his parents disappearance, I doubt he'd take a "oh I left when the feanorians (who were provoked by Elwing, don't forget) were going to kill me"

"What happened to our sons?" he probably asks, as would be normal. And here is where it's questionable just what the answer was, but based on his reaction I think we can probably guess that somehow he got an idea that their sons were no longer alive for him to rescue. Why do I say this? because he immediately sets sail for Valinor, not caring for the ban, and intending to plead to the Valar to intervene because this is getting out of hand.

Is this the reaction of a father who doesn't give a shit about his kids and abandoned them? No. this is the reaction of a father who is so grieved by what he probably believes is the death of his kids, that it gives him a mission, it gives him a purpose beyond his parents, and whether or not he'll succeed he's gonna die trying. He sails west, and he begs the Valar to intervene, and they do.

Things happen, yadda yadda, war of wrath etc. The Valar then give Earendil a choice: immortality or mortality. Earendil wanted mortality, which would mean he'd be sent back to middle earth. Elwing wished for immortality, and due to his love of her he chose immortality himself.

And here is where I wonder how the fuck nobody has any compassion for him.

What happened to Earendil? Was his ending a happily ever after? Hell. No. Earendil was given a fate that in many ways sucks. Think about it. His immortal life is spent alone, sailing the sky with the silmaril which he's given custody over, he gets to look down on everything that happens, and who knows how he responded when when he first found out his kids were alive. He gives hope to others, but has anyone ever considered what it must be like for him? He sails the skies, a hero to so many-- but to quote The Song of Achilles 'give me one hero who was happy'.

Then consider thousands of years pass, his one son is forever parted from him because he chose mortality, his other son eventually sails to Valinor, imagine all that time that they had lost that now must be caught up on. Like he should incite your compassion, people, not your contempt.

The Feanorians

Something that frustrates me is the idea that to support Earendil must mean that one cannot like Maedhros and Maglor for what they did. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I adore what the Feanorians did for Elrond and Elros, the adopting of the twins when I read it actually helped me to fall in love with them so much. It was beautiful how admidst this blood and terror there was a moment that they took, and they did some good. The fact that Elrond is the way he is in later installments because of them is beautiful.

In addition, the Feanorians had the same family oriented thinking that Earendil might have had people. Just something of note.

But to villainize either the Feanorians OR Earendil as if to say one had to be wrong because the other was right is absolutely absurd. Tolkien didn't do it, so why does anyone else? There's a complex situation here, people, there's a situation that should be thought of from all sides. Earendil is no villain. The Feanorians are not villains. They all played their parts, and when their part was over it was passed to someone else.

Conclusion:

Do not look at Earendil so simple minded, or we will have issues. He is as complex of a character as any other character in Silmarillion, and should be treated with the same respect anyone might give Sauron, or Finwe, or Feanor, or Fingolfin etc. etc. etc. 

Therefore, think. Just think. Take yourself out of your shoes and put yourself in his for a moment. If you can't do that, then I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say to you. Hate is an immature response, and born from not taking in enough facts. That’s all I have to say on it.