#And seems to be favoring fingolfin over feanor's line

[shrikeseams]

I love that au idea!!! (What about findis though?)

I can't lie, Findis is like. Schrödinger's Finwian to me. Does she exist? Does she not? Depends on what's convenient!

In this instance, while we could certainly push Feanor and Nerdanel's elopement... there just feels like way less pressure to flip the birth dates. What does it matter if Feanor's eldest is slightly older than Finwe's third eldest and second son?? Findis's presence has already legitimated the Finwe-Indis marriage, and without finwe asking feanor to not make their private muddle public... I can't see Feanor agreeing to give the seniority to Fingolfin. Unless you make elopement extremely scandalous? Which still doesn't quite do it for me. 🤔 I'm open to suggestions, though!

[maglors-anion-gap]

Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad for the Duobingo.

I have no clue what I think their relationship is so I'm asking for a second opinion

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Hi I am ridiculously late answering these ffff....

(Anyone who wants to send in a duo now is welcome to do so, I promise I'll answer them this time)

So you might be looking at this bingo card like "ummm some of these basically contradict each other, what is this??" and it's because I like a couple different readings of these two. I can understand them getting along just as much as I can see them lowkey disliking each other.

Narratively, I find them very tasty. Both of them are killed by Sauron. Both of them play similar roles as strong politicians building some of the most successful intercommunity alliances in the legendarium (gil-galad and the last alliance, celebrimbor and the dwarves). Their political work is positioned as healing (in some amount) wrongs done between communities (the last alliance is in some ways the reconciliation of elves and numenor, and the revenge of numenor against sauron; celebrimbor with his partnership with the dwarves heals rifts caused in beleriand). So I think they make if not friendly then competent political partners. Grounds for a friendly or unfriendly reading.

I don't think gil-galad has massive issues with celebrimbor being one of Feanor's line. Celebrimbor repudiates his father; nothing in the text suggests he is rabidly in favor of the oath or in support of any oath-driven political decisions his family's sect makes. So from a threat standpoint, I think it would be lowhanging fruit to say they dislike each other over this. However, this is where "sniff each other through the door" comes into play because I can see pride being important to both of them and while celebrimbor is not all that dangerous (in a malicious sense) I also don't see him as someone who hates his family, there's nothing in text to support that, he puts the star of feanor on the gates of khazad dum all those years later, and his pride, as tolkien puts it in some of his letters (and scientific curiosity, and urge to embalm/protect/direct) is what drives him to craft the rings and makes him susceptible to sauron (and this isn't me, like, bashing celebrimbor, I think his motivations seem Good even if they are prideful, like they're not mutually exclusive). I can see this unsettling gil-galad, who is on the throne simply because no one else is alive and galadriel has her own pet empire. celebrimbor could be an enemy if he wanted to be.

gay af to have a sworn rival: if they're enemies, refer to the old quote (unsure of the source) "everything is about sex - except sex, which is about politics."

better in fanfic: tolkien says a lot with a few words and he says very little about these two in connection to each other.

siblings: I have some very niche "trans!curufin is the father of gil-galad" ideas that would mean these two are (half)brothers. You could run a feanor&fingolfin parallel there, if you went with a turbulent relationship vibe.

[melestasflight]

Maeglin, High King of the Noldor

Been musing over the idea of Maeglin as High King of the Noldor and the political advantages of his hypothetical lordship. Especially, the potential for stronger diplomatic relationships among all the free peoples of Beleriand after the Nirnaeth.

Without his capture, the possibility of Maeglin becoming High King after Turgon was pretty high:

• The line of succession of the Noldor seems to skip women and it favors father-to-son lineage. Namely, after Finwë's death, we see the kingship in Beleriand go to Feanor-Maedhros-Fingolfin (with the abdication). Finarfin remains to rule Tirion, besides both Indis and his sister Findis being older than him.

• After Fingolfin's death, a most direct descendent of Finwë in Beleriand is actually Lalwen, but the crown goes to Fingon, as Fingolfin's son, and after him to Turgon.

• As such, in the scenario where Turgon dies (and we know this is a likely scenario for High Kings), most probably Idril would be skipped in favor of Maeglin. And even if Turgon lived, Maeglin is still the Crown Prince of the Noldor.

So what? Well, looking at Maeglin's heritage and experiences, this is quite a big deal:

• First and foremost, Maeglin is a Sinda by father and not just a regular dude. The Silmarillion says about Eöl: "Of old he was of the kin of Thingol", and moreover, "of a high kin of the Teleri". Eöl was likely one of those elves that stayed to look for Thingol when he was stuck with Melian in Nan Elmoth. Thus, Maeglin is family with Doriathrin royalty, probably some sort of cousin to Celeborn and Lúthien. He speaks Sindarin since birth and has grown up on Sindarin territory.

• Thingol prohibits Quenya and refuses the Noldor an entrance to Doriath but he does make exceptions for those of half-Telerin kin, like Finrod and all the children of Eärwen. Maeglin is even closer in kin with Thingol, meaning he would have access to both Doriath and the friendship of Thingol. This opens the opportunity for an alliance that neither Fingon nor Maedhros could establish previously.

• Furthermore, Maeglin is great friends with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. This again has to do with Eöl who is a big friend of the dwarves, we are told that he basically prefers the company of the Naugrim over his own kin. He speaks with them often when they pass close to Nan Elmoth and stays with them as a guest. When Maeglin and Aredhel flee, Eöl is invited for a midsummer feast to Nogrod.

• Maeglin himself spends much time in the Blue Mountains, the Silmarillion says that he often "went with Eöl to the cities of the Dwarves in the east of Ered Lindon, and there he learned eagerly what they would teach". This is very rare, we are told that the Eldar never go to the dwarven realms apart from Maeglin and his dad. This changes with Caranthir and Maedhros, who become allies to the dwarves, and as a result "the gems of the Noldor [the Naugrim] praised above all other wealth".

• This leaves Maeglin in an extremely favorable position with the Dwarves - both sides of his family (Eöl and the Noldor) have good relationships with the Blue Mountains. Maeglin is an apprentice of the Dwarves, has spent much time with them, I would suspect he speaks Khuzdul. Likely alliance #2.

• What of the other Elven lordships? After the Nirnaeth, there's Nargothrond (Finrod was Turgon's best friend, so positive relations), the Falathrim (Círdan was already an ally of Fingon), and the remnants of the Fëanorians (Aredhel was best friends with Celegorm and Curufin, the hotheads of the crew, and Maeglin stayed in Himlad with them when running from Nan Elmoth). Likely alliances #3, #4, and #5.

• The group Maeglin doesn't like? Mortal Men, bummer. However, after the Nirnaeth there's hardly any of the Edain left and the Easterlings are Morgoth's puppets.

• Ok, so the dude is well connected, but would he be good as a diplomat and respected as a leader? Tolkien says yes: Maeglin "prospered and grew great among the Gondolindrim, praised by all, and high in the favour of Turgon". He strengthens the arms of the Gondolindrim with his metals, is wise in council and proves himself in battle at the Nirnaeth. Moreover, we are told that "his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow those that withstood him". A great orator and diplomat.

• From all of this, Maeglin has the potential to be a powerful ruler. He is of noble origin among both the Noldor and the Sindar, is well connected to all Elven and Dwarven leaders, he is a respected craftsman, brave warrior, and apparently excellent orator and diplomat. He is also cross-culturally competent, bilingual (more likely multilingual), and can keep his temper in check (he is patient and calculated, we see that time and again).

• Thus, Maeglin as High King of the Noldor would be able to forge alliances among all the free peoples of Beleriand and possibly raise armies greater than the Union of Maedhros.

All of this said, it is precisely why Maeglin is such a spectacularly tragic character. He is too powerful of a chess piece not to be brought down by a personal failing or well, torture by literal Lucifer. For the Doom of Mandos to work and the sinking of Beleriand to happen, Maeglin must fail.

So, Tolkien brings him down on the basis of jealousy, frustration from unrequited love, and a curse by his own father. I see why this is narratively necessary, but I have never agreed with the why that the Silmarillion provides. I'm firm of the camp that Maeglin's downfall has much more to do with the political intricacies of Gondolin and the cultural/racial conservatism among the Noldor ratherthan his youthful infatuation with Idril. But that is another debate and I will be exploring it throughout my new series To Love and Die in Gondolin.

Would love to hear people's opinions on this.

[galadhremmin]

Do you think Fingolfin loved Fëanor? I suppose he did as a child, but do you think that remained in adulthood? Especially after the Helcaraxe? I wonder if his charge at Melkor was both to one up but also to avenge his brother?

hello! Like with a lot of Silmarillion characters, I think the story is barebones enough to leave a lot up to interpretation/your own creativity.

Like I have answered in an ask before this, the texts indicate Feanor more or less was unfriendly and avoided his half-siblings because they were a painful reminder of his mother's fate; but strife didn't really come between them until Morgoth's rumours start flying.

I do, however, think there had to be something for Morgoth to work with.

Notice how it never says Finarfin grew proud and jealous;

'High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Feanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwe and of the elder line of Feanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar."

I think the “then” is important.

When you look at Morgoth's other lies, he often works with things that are actually true; what he lies about most often are the reasons/motivations why someone is doing something. Tolkien did say it was not actually a good idea for the Eldar to have been brought to Aman, but he did not mean for the Valar's intentions to be malicious; Morgoth takes their 'really should not have been there' thing and twists it into 'because they want to keep you from ruling so Men can take over.'

So what happens here is that he at first goes among the Eldar and talk about the Valar, the fact that they did not tell elves about humans, etc.-- he seems to whisper some kind of movement for return into being that goes far beyond Fëanor as an individual. It's all about the Noldor deserving power of their own, and reframing facts that are essentially largely true.

And once they're concerned about power, and about being deprived of things they have a right to-- then he starts setting Finwe and his oldest son against Fingolfin, who supposedly wants to replace them with the leave of the Valar.

Which is to say... unlike Finarfin (who just seems not to have bothered: smart guy) Fingolfin seems like he, much like Fëanor, felt like he had to compete for his father's acknowledgement and approval. Unlike Fëanor he never really seems to have gotten it. On top of that his older brother 1. avoided him at least when Fëanor was younger; he might have matured a bit and been nicer later on though! 2. Fëanor remained antagonistic against Indis, who Finwe seems to have allowed to take the blame for the s-th change. Fingolfin is noted to be close to Indis.

What I'm getting from this is that from Fingolfin's side there was always an attempt to best or at least equal Fëanor in some way, to be acknowledged as just as legitimate and favored. Even so; their sons and Fingolfin's daughter were friends before the strife, and Nerdanel liked Indis. Both of their sons seem to agree with their fathers' opinions on the Valar etc. later on and more or less break up their relationship over it; so I don't think it was a sneaking around situation.

So... I think it's possible for Fingolfin to have loved Fëanor! Though there was likely always an element of envy and competition; and that is Finwe's fault. If Fëanor was able to love him in turn I don't know. The birth of Indis children would likely always feel like the final nail in Miriel's coffin in his mind. On the other hand, the Fëanor we hear speak during the Silmarillion is a Fëanor long after Morgoth has been whispering at him for some time, and mostly just after his beloved father's gruesome murder. It doesn't make sense to me to write him as always like that.

Even if he was absorbed by his work and a rather emotional person in general-- he founded a loremaster school. This implies some interest in furthering knowledge among the population, for one. He was not a raging maniac on a daily basis, presumably. Nerdanel liked him well enough to marry him. It's possible F&F did care for each other, despite the complications. I think the way they take after Finwe and the ways in which their anxiety about Finwe's affection shapes them can both bring them together and drive them apart. There is definitely room for some brotherly interaction! Overcoming the things that make it hard for them to be friendly to each other only to be set against each other by Morgoth just makes the latter sadder, imo.

Uhmmm anyway, did Fingolfin charge because of Fëanor. No, I don't think so personally. The Silmarillion basically paints it as an act of rage/despair in response to the Sudden Flame, and Fingolfin losing all hope for the Noldor; I think the destruction the battle wrought (and the loss of two of his nephews) brought home they were really Doomed to lose, that there was no escape from Namo's sentence. His final charge is an act of defiance against the encroaching darkness-- always reminds me of that rage rage against the dying of the light cliche of a poem, haha.

He does literally follow Fëanor over the Ice, as he had promised to; but the thing is, he is taking his own vow very literally on purpose, I think.

Not only does he claim the title of High King after Finwe dies with the aid of popular support, this directly leads to Fëanor stealng and burning the ships to prevent him from following and usurping the title;

Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships

I think both brothers were permanently affected by Morgoth's words. Feanor's speech to urge the Noldor onwards echoes a lot of Morgoth's lies despite their source being revealed, and Fingolfin after being made aware of the fact that they have been set against each other actually does claim the kingship. I don't understand why! They both are made aware of the origin of those ideas... and then act as if they were entirely true anyway, and after being reconciled "in word" at least.

We also get this in the War of the Jewels;

"But no love was there in the hearts of Fingolfin and his folk for the people of Fëanor; and though Fingolfin learned that Fëanor was dead, he held his sons the accomplices of their father, and there was peril of war between the two hosts."

That doesn't sound particularly loving to me.

I think if he did love Fëanor a lot of that love probably died on the Ice, and his final act was not about him but the doom of the Noldor as a whole, as well as his own hopeless resistance and anger.