#“a man's awful writing of female characters won't ever be enough to make me hate a woman”. So like. Yeah

[dootznbootz]

I know we love our morally gray characters. But the internet kinda ruined Circe for me.

Let me explain.

I remember I actually used to really like Circe's character when I first read the Odyssey last year. I loved her as a "helpful antagonist type" character.

But what ruined her character for me was everybody calling her a "girlboss" or just simping for her in a way? But they completely disregard the fact she technically raped a man. (But no one cares about that because male SA victims never get taken seriously, especially in media smh)

Now, I can never experience Circe as the same character because all I see is a terrible person being glorified because of her gender. And then people say double standards don't exist!

Which I hate cause she's a genuinely cool character. (From a writing standpoint)

Circe isn't a bad character let me be clear (in the Odyssey anyway. Cough cough Madeline Mil-) But I just hate how people romanticize her completely ignoring her terrible actions. And to think it's all just because she's a "hot badass female".

And this isn't just about Odysseus either, there's literally a myth where she tries to seduce a man, but when he remains faithful she turns him into a woodpecker-

People can like her CHARACTER, however, they should still acknowledge her bad actions too and hold her accountable. If we can all agree it's shitty what Zeus did to a bunch of women, we can also agree what Circe did to Odysseus was shitty.

Women sexually assaulting men is just as inhumane as vice versa and we have to stop turning a blind eye about it, even if it's fictional.

And I feel like people WOULD actually hold her accountable if she was a male character. Which makes me even more angry.

Maybe this is just a me thing, but I just can't fawn over a character and call them hot when they've done something as bad as some of the things Circe has done.

So, I guess what you could get out of this-

Please stop romanticizing circe.

Hold her accountable as you would any other character.

Don't be so forgiving just because you find her attractive.

Anyways, thank you for coming to my Ted talk and sorry for ranting

honestly yeah, all of this.

I sadly had to block Circe's tag on tumblr because it pisses me off how much people glorify her and/shittalk Odysseus with it. (I trust my friends when they have Circe content lol)

I love Circe as well. She's such an interesting and fun character but how people twist her just fucks with me so much. Also to make HER a victim just for girlbossness? What's so girlboss about having such a horrific thing happen to you?

I said it in a different post but you can thirst for Circe without making fun of her victim. People will call a victim of rape a manwhore or a slut as if what happened to him was a grand ol time. It's genuinely disturbing. He is shown to have PTSD from it (in my opinion) in the Odyssey. This book is ancient and yet it captures that better than anything I've read.

Odysseus isn't necessarily a wholesome, "goody-to-shoes" man. He does a lot of awful things. That doesn't mean that the suffering he went through is suddenly negated.

Even bringing up stuff with female characters, the fact that people will water them down so then they're not "problematic" pisses me off. Women can be horrible, even good women. Penelope is my fave but she's pretty awful in many ways.

Evidence will be right in front of people and they won't care. Crying, begging to go, fear, avoidance, numbness, etc. There'll be excuses anyway. "He's a guy, he's fine with it." "Men are sex crazed, especially back then." "He didn't try hard enough." "He should be grateful."

Honestly? What saddens me the most is that I don't think people will ever really understand what happened or even WANT to because they have their own idea in their head and refuse to see it for what it is. I mean Hades game did it too. It's really sad.

Circe and him weren't fwb. They weren't lovers. What about "heart full of grim forebodings" screams love? He wanted to save his friends and go home.

[kyouka-supremacy]

what are your opinions on ch14? its one of my fav chapters tbqh so im curious to know why u didnt like it initially and what changed

Thank you for this question! Writing down your thoughts is always fun eheh. Predictable negativity on bsd storytelling and Higuchi characterization under the cut, so please don't read if that's something possible to ruin your mood!!

So here's the thing. We need a bit of context first. Okay, you might know I'm not a big fan of bsd's poor female characters writing in general. My first contact with chapter 14 was when I was watching the bsd anime for the first time. Higuchi is introduced as this woman who is very cool!!! She lured the main character into a trap, pulled out these massive riffles and started shooting everywhere. It was nice. Then, she's badly mistreated by Akutagawa, and it's gross; Higuchi's relationship with Akutagawa is so fucked up. And then the following episode 11 (that is the corresponding of chapter 14) is all about it, about Higuchi's fucked up relationship with Akutagawa, but like... Romanticizing it? Saying it's good for this woman to stay at her work place where she's made miserable on daily basis?

What's most distasteful isn't the beating up itself from Akutagawa, although that is sure to leave a very bitter taste (after all, as a shonen-ish series, violence is nothing out of the norm); what's highly disturbing is the clear unbalance of power between Higuchi and Akutagawa, or how Higuchi is constantly depicted as being obsessed with Akutagawa while Akutagawa is openly violent with her. And the way he reprimands her! And the way she's clearly distraught at his words- not to mention the countless times it's shown how emotionally hurt she was by him. This kind of stuff is depressing. Because like!! What if we didn't romanticize men hitting their female partners!!!!! The bar is *that* low!!!!!!

And Higuchi is portrayed as being obsessed with Akutagawa. She was willing to die trying to save him, even being aware she alone couldn't do anything to win over an enemy organization... Because apparently dying trying to save him would be better than living without him? Girl, you deserve so much better. The “it's not easy to leave the Port Mafia, but it's not impossible. I've thought about it many times. Yet I didn't, because... ” sentence is sorta implied to refer to the fact that she didn't leave the Port Mafia because she was in love with Akutagawa (Ryuunosuke), right? I interpreted it that way when I first watched the anime, and I still believe it's the phrase's main implication– also because the actual closing sentence “because it's my job” doesn't make any sense, as she's basically saying “I'm not leaving my job because it's my job”; it's evident there's a deeper meaning to it hinting to Higuchi having romantic feelings for Akutagawa (unless... the circular phrase is used to metaphorically express how she's hopelessly stuck in a toxic work environment, but I can hardly imagine the author going such lengths to express a concept they visibly have no interest in developing). Point is, the fact that she's basically saying she's willing to keep working for a job that makes her allegedly unhappy just because she loves a man is... Not great. Besides, Higuchi going “it's my job” at Akutagawa after he asked her sorry like???? Now, after ten months of being into bsd, I can find it vaguely cute, but you can bet the first time I watched it I was like. bestie, beloved, light of my life, your job can NOT be to endure abuse after abuse from your coworker. Get yourself a new job asap, and feel free to deck Akutagawa too while you're at it.

What's nasty about Akutagawa beating Higuchi again isn't the beating itself, as much as Higuchi being obsessed with Akutagawa despite of it, and their whole dynamic never being framed as negative. It would be one thing if the whole situation was framed as toxic but... It's very much not. It's not like the reader is lead to despise Akutagawa for what he does, it's just something that's there. The narrative doesn't look like it's going in a direction of Higuchi emancipating herself either, but rather learning to roll with the abuse thanks to fleeting rewards of acknowledgement which is, once again, gross. It's gross to display a model of woman who would stay in a work place that constantly mistreats and disrespects her because it's worth her abusive crush telling her “I'm sorry” once every blue moon. Hell yeah you are sorry Akutagawa! If Higuchi had chosen to cut off his life support right there I wouldn't find it hard not to consider it rightful and legit on her side. The way they handle Higuchi's character is gloriously catastrophic and there's maybe not a better example of how the author doesn't know how to write women, has literally no clue on... The fact that women are p e o p l e and any sane person would leave such a toxic environment at the first chance. But of course they would rather think any woman would stay stuck with a terrible job if it's for a handsome, brooding guy (bruh??? Bruh???????? Sorta crying right now sorry)

Then again, the issue isn't even the relationship being toxic itself– I mean, it sucks for Higuchi, but one can decide to portray a toxic relationship in fiction. The issue is that it's evidently not intended to be perceived as toxic. Nobody ever sides with Higuchi, or voices the fact that she's evidently being abused; Higuchi easily forgives Akutagawa when he apologizes (it doesn't even count as forgiving because she never was even angry or frustrated at him to begin with what the fuck). Akutagawa hitting Higuchi is even used as a gag and like. What the fuck. Who in the world could ever find it funny. What the fuck.

Tbh when I entered the fandom I was very surprised to find out the cycle of abuse was typically framed like this:

Mori → Dazai → Akutagawa → Kyouka

when after watching the anime I definitely had an idea more of the sorts of:

(Mori) → Dazai → Akutagawa → Higuchi

(Very side note but at this point Mori towards Dazai barely counts as abuse, like what did he even ever do to him? Emotional abuse barely stands too since Dazai is, on admission of Mori himself, extremely hard to manipulate)

I feel like Higuchi and Akutagawa's relationship mirrors a lot what used to be Akutagawa's relationship with Dazai when Dazai was still in the pm, especially in the way both Higuchi and Akutagawa are obsessed with their own senpai and gaining his approval. And honestly, just as I am a firm supporter of Akutagawa growing out of his infatuation for Dazai and never forgiving him for what he's done to him, I also believe Akutagawa doesn't deserve Higuchi's forgiveness and could rot in hell as much as I care (joking, but also, don't hurt Higuchi and then expect to have my sympathy).

Plus, THE WHOLE “this female leader becomes useless and powerless as soon as her talented partner is out of the game” the episode carries through like NNNNGGGHHH biting biting chewing wood then why did you even make her leader in the first place???? Like what's the point???????? The rethoric that women are literally useless without a man?????????? I get that this chapter came out around 2013 but like. C'mon. So did Kill la Kill and Psycho-Pass. C'mon. (Also the “we won't recognize the legitimacy of this woman's authority until she demonstrates she's willing to die / throws herself in a suicide mission” but that's a whole different category of “saving other people's lives gives me permission to keep living” “people can't live unless someone tells them ‘it's okay to go on’ ” bsd fucked up morals this post is already too long to get into)

But like (and here starts the nicer section): time has passed since I watched the episode and read the chapter. I reluctantly grew fonder of both Akutagawa and Higuchi. And despite the fact that everything I've said still stands... Akutagawa did say sorry. We never saw him interact with Higuchi after that, which leaves space to hope he's changed in the way he behaves with her (more likely author has realized how fucked up and nasty the whole thing was and opted to never show them interact again, but eh). And while Akutagawa saying sorry didn't effect me at all when I first watched it, because what he did to Higuchi is unforgivable (that much I still believe)... He still apologized. When I first watched the episode, I didn't care the slightest about Akutagawa– besides despising him for how he treated Higuchi, of course. But as the story unwraps itself, it's hard not to grow sympathetic of him, especially after learning about the Dark Era events / the Heartless Cur events / seeing him act in the Moby Dick fight arc too to an extent. I still firmly believe Higuchi shouldn't forgive him, and I don't either for what he's done to her, but as a reader I at least now have an explanation to why he acted that way towards her, and I can understand him. I can now catch more layers to him saying sorry, the effort it must have took him, the admission of having been wrong (which is a huge thing, like, what other character in this series has ever admitted of being wrong? So many characters believing they're infallible), the real intention of making amends and learn from his mistakes which is... Admittedly nice. I mean, character development is great. Everyone is weak for character development, and Akutagawa's is a huge one. What were before words I would have forcibly shoved back in his throat are now reluctantly heartwarming, because they show an Akutagawa who's willing to change and become a better person. But from Higuchi's point of view, that still doesn't change how much harm and suffering he caused her, you know? That doesn't change the fact Higuchi should never forgive him for what he's done to her, just like Akutagawa is entitled to never forgive Dazai for all the abuse he was perpetrator of. I just overall think one's redemption does require amends to be made, but can't demand forgiveness. Akutagawa's step of apologizing is important and necessary for him to make amends and start to become a better person; but that does not and never will entitle him to Higuchi's forgiveness. I now like that scene some more because it's a big first display of development for Akutagawa's character, and because despite the bad writing I could never dislike Higuchi; I like it because I like to imagine that being a moment of growth for both of them, if I make myself forcibly forget about their displeasing canon characterization. I like it because I now like both characters and, despite rationally thinking they're most likely better off separate ways, it still compells me to imagine them being happy and in good terms together. I like it because Higuchi in Harukawa's art style is so freaking pretty

Mandatory tl;dr: I don't like the chapter because it perpetuates and romanticizes the rethoric of women being destined to be made miserable by a man their whole lives with no chances of getting out, as well as displaying a huge systematic unbalance in Higuchi and Akutagawa's relationship with Higuchi being constantly made weaker and dependent; I like it more now because I got attached to Higuchi and Akutagawa, because it shows a growth of Akutagawa and because I wouldn't be able to hate Higuchi no matter what.

Dear Op‚ you said chapter 14 was one of your favorite chapters so you've probably thought about it longer and way more thoroughly than me‚ and it's possible that after reading this there wasn't a single thing you agreed with. And that's okay!! I hope reading this made you view the chapter from a new perspective even if you ultimately disagree with my takes.